BYU Hypocrisy and Double Standard

[OGHoosier]

Elder Bednar's opposition to intercollegiate sports programs at Church schools comes into a bit more focus. 

To be honest I'm not much of a sports fan so if they were to be done away with I would shed no tears, but I know that I'm an outlier and the mass outcry would be a thing to behold.

Would still love it if they would take some athletics real estate and build a goshdarn parking garage. 

[strappinglad]

This OP has more red flags than a Chinese military parade. 

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So you support 2 criminals guilty for the same exact crime receiving TWO completely different sentences, one being set free and the other receiving the death penalty. 

hyperbole much???

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So you support 2 criminals guilty for the same exact crime receiving TWO completely different sentences, one being set free and the other receiving the death penalty.  Interesting 

What the hell do you think you accomplish by misrepresenting someone else’s comments so poorly?  This is so juvenile.

[Ipod Touch]

32 minutes ago, OGHoosier said:

To be honest I'm not much of a sports fan so if they were to be done away with I would shed no tears, but I know that I'm an outlier and the mass outcry would be a thing to behold.

 

I love some BYU football.  But with the changes in how NCAA athletes can be compensated via endorsements, commercials, etc. -- BYU is going to have an even more difficult time attracting athletes.  In a lot of ways, I wish college football would go away and we could have legit farm leagues for the NFL.  I'm hoping the XFL/CFL partnership is a step towards that.

 

[Fether]

15 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

hyperbole much???

It’s his full time job

[The Nehor]

20 minutes ago, Calm said:

What the hell do you think you accomplish by misrepresenting someone else’s comments so poorly?  This is so juvenile.

*psst* It is because he is juvenile. Don’t tell anyone.

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

So you support 2 criminals guilty for the same exact crime receiving TWO completely different sentences, one being set free and the other receiving the death penalty.  Interesting 

This is when you should make a heartfelt apology. 

[secondclasscitizen]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

One confessed, one didn't. Hence the disparity.

I think the lesson here is obvious.

I agree. Never confess anything. It’s between you and the Lord. 

[The Nehor]

55 minutes ago, secondclasscitizen said:

I agree. Never confess anything. It’s between you and the Lord. 

I was going to go with an elaborate psychological scheme using scares and subtle clues to slowly drive the guy insane so he thinks he is going mad and confesses first.

But sure I guess your method might work too.

[OGHoosier]

2 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

I love some BYU football.  But with the changes in how NCAA athletes can be compensated via endorsements, commercials, etc. -- BYU is going to have an even more difficult time attracting athletes.  In a lot of ways, I wish college football would go away and we could have legit farm leagues for the NFL.  I'm hoping the XFL/CFL partnership is a step towards that.

 

Here's hoping. I'm wondering if the US will ever develop sports academies like many European countries have - where football is a core part of the curriculum and the purpose is to churn out footballers. 

[Fair Dinkum]

10 hours ago, Ipod Touch said:

 I see no evidence that there is a difference between how men and women are treated.  And the example you provide doesn't show that.

Ah...did you read what I posted in my OP?

Quote

The female was given a one year expulsion from BYU while the football player, who apparently felt no guilt, continued to play football for the Y (and I might add, suffered no consequences)

 

[Fair Dinkum]

10 hours ago, strappinglad said:

This OP has more red flags than a Chinese military parade. 

hyperbole much???

Let me tone it down for you then.  Do you support two individuals, one female and the other male, who together engage in the same exact honor code violation being dealt difference consequence's by the same male administrator? The female being expelled and the male receiving no consequence? 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Fair Dinkum]

9 hours ago, Calm said:

What the hell do you think you accomplish by misrepresenting someone else’s comments so poorly?  This is so juvenile.

I apologize if my reply was offensive to you.  I interpreted your comment as justifying the BYU Honor Code offices action of meting out different consequence to these two students for the same exact infraction. Again if I misunderstood I apologize.

[Fair Dinkum]

9 hours ago, Fether said:

It’s his full time job

meh

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

I apologize if my reply was offensive to you.  I interpreted your comment as justifying the BYU Honor Code offices action of meting out different consequence to these two students for the same exact infraction. Again if I misunderstood I apologize.

Absolutely not.  That I think such should be taken case by case doesn’t mean I justify BYU’s bizarre mismatch treatment in this case.  If you had bothered reading my post it should have been clear.
 

No behavior exists in a vacuum so to me it is not the same infraction just because two people are involved.  It was not a crime and shouldn’t be treated like one.  What was the history?  If anything, there is a good chance since she confessed to her bishop, it was a one time thing for her and if so, IMO the woman should have gotten a warning and maybe probation.  The nonmember who appears to have been indifferent and didn’t see it as an issue possibly had broken the honor code before given his attitude and may have continued;  IMO if he was going to continue breaking the honor code, he should have been booted even if understandable why he might have thought it trivial.  Though he may have been indifferent because coaches told him it was no big thing and it might have been a one time occurrence for him.
 

That nothing happened to him was likely due to his status, a very unfortunate and all too common occurrence…for example, how often do we hear the person who deserves punishment for a crime gets off because of their power or connections.

Edited August 12, 2021 by Calm

[The Nehor]

32 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Let me tone it down for you then.  Do you support two individuals, one female and the other male, who together engage in the same exact honor code violation being dealt difference consequence's by the same male administrator? The female being expelled and the male receiving no consequence? 

So you want the university to dish out punishment to someone for an Honor Code violation where the only evidence for it is one person’s word? Do I believe it happened? Yeah, almost certainly. Do I want this to be the standard for meting out punishment? No.

Again, one confessed and one did not. That is why the disparity is there.

I would be interested to see how the Honor Code office normally deals with this. On the Honor code page about what to expect there is a stated presumption of innocence unless you have confessed. I have my doubts that it is actually followed but it is there.

Do we have reports of similar cases where one student confesses to sex and the other participant is also punished based only on that testimony?

Edited August 12, 2021 by The Nehor

[Rain]

12 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Let me tone it done for you then.  Do you support two individuals, one female and the other male, who together engage in the same exact honor code violation being dealt difference consequence's by the same male administrator? The female being expelled and the male receiving no consequence? 

If the cases were the same and I knew the 3 sides to the story I absolutely wouldn't support it. 

We already know they are not the same because he is not a member.  The football player thing doesn't make a difference in the cases to me.

That leaves a lot of room for the cases to be very similar or very different which means I could not fairly judge the situation because I have just a small bit of what she said (what you reported here) and nothing of what he or the administrator said.

Don't get me wrong.  I'm not defending BYU on this.  Like calm I really think the repentance process should be worked out while going to school if possible. It is part of why I didn't go to school there and didn't want my children to go there. I think they are too controlling. 

But like with everything else inside I try to see both/all sides of the story - one reason I haven't written you off as a critic like others may have even though sometimes you really test me on it. So in this case I really feel for the woman.  That must have been hard and painful.  On top if that it probably felt unfair, but I can't judge on unfairness with only 5% of the story.

I have a friend who is struggling with a church leader right now over something.  I am ready to go to bat for her right now.  But how I would approach it if I lived near her and if I had any hope of having a full conversation with the church leader would be to ask for his side of the story first.  If I don't understand how he feels first I cannot help her well. Going in like a mama bear would just put his defenses up.  Going in to hear both sides allows me to understand him which hopefully would allow him to understand my friend's situation as well.

[Amulek]

20 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Should males and females received [sic] the same consequence for breaking the BYU Honor Code for the same exact infraction?  BYU doesn't think so.

If the infraction was 'topless sunbathing' I could probably live with that.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Amulek

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, Amulek said:

If the infraction was 'topless sunbathing' I could probably live with that.

Stupid HOA keeps insisting it is “unsightly” and “grotesque” and “lowering property values”. I am not gonna stop you fascists!

[Canadiandude]

To be quite honest, as a Canadian who went to a public university up here, rather than stateside as everyone was telling me to do on my mission, the BYU honor code is  pretty alien to a lot of Latter-Day Saints and former-members outside the USA.

…and I think we are only just beginning to see the consequences of these discrepancies between the American general membership and general membership of other countries.

[Fair Dinkum]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

So you want the university to dish out punishment to someone for an Honor Code violation where the only evidence for it is one person’s word? Do I believe it happened? Yeah, almost certainly. Do I want this to be the standard for meting out punishment? No.

Again, one confessed and one did not. That is why the disparity is there.

I would be interested to see how the Honor Code office normally deals with this. On the Honor code page about what to expect there is a stated presumption of innocence unless you have confessed. I have my doubts that it is actually followed but it is there.

Do we have reports of similar cases where one student confesses to sex and the other participant is also punished based only on that testimony?

To be clear I was not there nor have I ever attended BYU.  How exactly does the honor code office work?  When someone is reported, it is my understanding that an investigation is initiated.  So when this girl reported the incident, per her bishops instructions, the office would have reached out to the football player involved and made an inquiry.  He either accepted responsibility or denied any involvement.  If he accepted responsibility and admitted breaking the honor code, why was he not penalized in a manner equal to the girl.  If he denied involvement then why was the girl punished without his corroborating witness?

[strappinglad]

36 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

If he denied involvement then why was the girl punished

Perhaps it had something to do with her confession. 

If I go in and confess to the police that I robbed a store with my friend Jimmy, and Jimmy denies any involvement, unless there is other evidence like Jimmy's face on camera, I will probably be going to jail and he won't .

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

If he denied involvement then why was the girl punished without his corroborating witness?

Because she confessed. Even the silly Honor Code presumption of innocence goes away when you do that.

2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

If he accepted responsibility and admitted breaking the honor code, why was he not penalized in a manner equal to the girl.

He probably didn’t.

 

I don’t think this Dehlin guy did a very good job investigating the story.

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Quote

 I see no evidence that there is a difference between how men and women are treated.  And the example you provide doesn't show that.

Ah...did you read what I posted in my OP?

The OP loaded with anonymous gossip and multiple hearsay?  

The OP stuffed with conclusory assertions?

The OP that purports to make broad conclusions about BYU based on a single incident?

Feel free to point to the competent, probative "evidence" you included in the OP.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Amulek]

19 hours ago, smac97 said:

Did the football player admit to the misconduct?

Presumably not. I looked up the "interview" (if that's what we're calling these things) to see if there was any discussion about what happened with the other student, but I couldn't bring myself to listen to it.

The recording is nearly five hours long -- 4:56:30, to be precise. I'm sorry, but there's no way I'm sitting through a podcast with a runtime longer than Pearl Harbor and Battlefield Earth combined (and is even less enjoyable) just for this.

So I'll just say this: if students at BYU are voluntary engaging in uncoerced sex, in express violation of the Honor Code, I'm okay with them being kicked out for that - regardless of their gender, wealth, status, talent, etc.

 

Edited August 12, 2021 by Amulek