Reconciling bruce r. McConkie

[Tacenda]

9 minutes ago, JAHS said:

President Heber H Grant once said:

"You always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it."

We can't suspect that everything they say might be wrong. We have to have some degree of trust and faith in them, otherwise there will be disorder in the church and in our minds.

Why are prophets even a thing? Why not rely on our own inner compasses? Also, why aren't we listening to prophetesses??

Edited August 2, 2021 by Tacenda

[SeekingUnderstanding]

33 minutes ago, JAHS said:

President Heber H Grant once said:

"You always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it."

We can't suspect that everything they say might be wrong. We have to have some degree of trust and faith in them, otherwise there will be disorder in the church and in our minds.

So this off the cuff comment related to us second hand decades after the fact is what you base your belief on? Doesn’t that seem kind of flimsy to you? 

Edited August 2, 2021 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Kevin Christensen]

On 8/1/2021 at 11:56 AM, MrShorty said:

@Kevin Christensen
I finally read the Compton essay, thanks for sharing it.

One statement stood out to me. In commenting on Paul and Peter's disagreements in the New Testament, Compton draws the conclusion that, "according to Paul, if we follow Church leaders who are not doing right, we are not absolved from wrongdoing; we share their guilt. And the conclusion is inescapable: sometimes obedience to Church leaders and obedience to God and moral justice are not the same thing"

It is interesting how this seems to contradict the idea from the popular Fourteen Fundamentals talk that we are blessed when following the prophet, even when the prophet is wrong.

Which version do we really believe? Or do we somehow believe both?

Regarding the Fourteen Fundamentals talk, I am not a fan.   I see it more as a manifestion of Myers Briggs Type Preferences than of binding or consistent doctrine or inspiration.

Quote

ESTJs thrive on order and continuity. Being extraverted, their focus involves organization of people, which translates into supervision. While ENTJs enjoy organizing and mobilizing people according to their own theories and tactically based agendas, ESTJs are content to enforce "the rules," often dictated by tradition or handed down from a higher authority.

ESTJs are joiners. They seek out like-minded companions in clubs, civic groups, churches and other service organizations. The need for belonging is woven into the fiber of SJs. The family likewise is a central focus for ESTJs, and attendance at such events as weddings, funerals and family reunions is obligatory.

Tradition is important to the ESTJ. Holidays, birthdays and other annual celebrations are remembered and observed often religiously by this type. The ESTJ is inclined to seek out his roots, to trace the family heritage back to honored ancestors both for a sense of family respectability and for a sense of security and belonging.

Service, the tangible expression of responsibility, is another key focus for ESTJs. They love to provide and to receive good service. The ESTJ merchant who provides dependable service has done much to enhance her self image.

ESTJs have an acute sense for orthodoxy. Much of their evaluation of persons and activities reflects their strong sense of what is "normal" and what isn't. ESTJ humor is frequently centered around something or someone being off center or behaving abnormally.

ESTJs promote the work ethic. Power, position and prestige should be worked for and earned. Laziness is rarely viewed with ambivalence nor benevolence by this type.

http://www.typelogic.com/estj.html

ESTJs are good managers, "administration" being listed as one of the spiritual gifts.  They are relatively common and good at what they do.  Having inherent type preferences, they also tend to impose their values downward to and through the organizations they manage.  But I do not confuse type preference with revelation.  On the Myers Briggs, I am an INFP (a much less common type), and for me, it was particularly healthy to discover that my own preferences are the exact opposite of ESTJ, and that my preferences lead to my own gifts and values and have their own validity and purpose.

Also, in the 14 Fundamentals talk, I see Position 2 on the Perry Scheme of Cognitive and Ethical Growth (which I have recently posted here), rather than of the best LDS inspiration thinking on leadership (see, for example, Nibley's essay on "Brigham Young as a Leader" in Brother Brigham Challenges the Saints (Not longer online, alas), my case in "Sophic Box and Mantic Vista" that Joseph Smith tries to lead us to Position 9 in the Perry Scheme, or President George Albert Smith's letter to Reverend Cope concerning the infamous 1945 Home Teaching Message, that had embodied much the same attitude as the later 14 Fundamental's talk.  See "A 1945 Perspective" here:

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/issues/V19N01.pdf

For me personally, I carefully consider what it means to "sustain" those in leadership, as well as in the LDS community as a whole.

Quote

Sustain

1.  To keep up; keep going; maintain. Aid, assist, comfort.
2.  to supply as with food or provisions:
3.  to hold up; support
4.  to bear; endure
5.  to suffer; experience: to sustain a broken leg.
6.  to allow; admit; favor
7.  to agree with; confirm.

I can willingly  endure, suffer, and allow people that the Lord calls for his purposes.  One meaning of "Sustain" is agree with, but that is not the first or only meaning.

"Who are thou to judge another man’s servant? To his own master he standeth or faileth. Yea,…God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:4.

I don't need to set myself up as anything other than a member of a covenant society trying to do my best where I am.  I did notice that as a Prophet Elder Benson was considerably softer in tone than he was as an apostle.  I think he may have learned something he did not know before.

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Kevin Christensen

[JLHPROF]

40 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Why are prophets even a thing? Why not rely on our own inner compasses? Also, why aren't we listening to prophetesses??

This is one of your stranger posts.

Prophets are a thing because God said they are a thing.
Inner compasses are not a thing, unless you are referring to the light of Christ.  And the Holy Ghost is a higher revelator than that.
And which prophetesses are we ignoring?  I'd love to know.

[JLHPROF]

44 minutes ago, JAHS said:

President Heber H Grant once said:

"You always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it."

We can't suspect that everything they say might be wrong. We have to have some degree of trust and faith in them, otherwise there will be disorder in the church and in our minds.

And he was wrong.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

This is one of your stranger posts.

Prophets are a thing because God said they are a thing.
Inner compasses are not a thing, unless you are referring to the light of Christ.  And the Holy Ghost is a higher revelator than that.
And which prophetesses are we ignoring?  I'd love to know.

Which prophetesses are we ignoring? Name one in the LDS church? They have been squelched because of the inequality of women's authority in the church. 

To the bold: haha, thanks! Forgive my strange posts, I feel comfortable on the board, and you get to see the real me, no one sees. 

[JLHPROF]

9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Which prophetesses are we ignoring? Name one in the LDS church? They have been squelched because of the inequality of women's authority in the church. 

Well that depends on which definition of prophet you are using.
If you use the definition in the Book of Revelation then anyone with a testimony of Christ has the Spirit of Prophecy.  So that would include our Relief Society President when she speaks would it not?

As far as women having authority in the Church, both the Apostle Paul in the New Testament and Joseph Smith in our dispensation addressed that.
You can consider that outdated relic thought of the past, but it's not like we're ignoring God on the issue.

I guess based on your "inner compass" you can always create God in your own image and set whatever rules you like.

Edited August 2, 2021 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

1 minute ago, JLHPROF said:

Well that depends on which definition of prophet you are using.
If you use the definition in the Book of Revelation then anyone with a testimony of Christ has the Spirit of Prophecy.  So that would include our Relief Society President when she speaks would it not?

As far as women having authority in the Church, both the Apostle Paul in the New Testament and Joseph Smith in our dispensation addressed that.
You can consider that outdated relic thought of the past, but it's not like we're ignoring God on the issue.

I guess based on your "inner compass" you can always create God in your own image and set whatever rules you like.

No, I equate inner compasses as personal revelation which Pres Nelson has given many talks on as of late, I believe. Why wouldn't we be on par with prophets, why are they special and we aren't as far as comparing their revelation to ours? How can one trust a prophet when they are fallible? Why wouldn't we choose our own revelation and rely on our compass, the one we have that directs our lives, the lives we live, not the prophet. The prophet doesn't live in our lives normally, he's in his world, we're in our own worlds. He's not in our thoughts, he can't read all our minds. He isn't God.

The trustworthiness in prophets lessens the more we see they can be wrong and sometimes in dangerous ways. I'm thinking of other denominations that have prophets as well. What of the prophets that have condemned those that are gay in the past, and the lives that have been taken because of it? There are many examples I could give. What of the lives that have been harmed because of the law of polygamy (think Brigham Young) in it's day? Not all polygamous marriages were good, women and their children starved because of lack of care, and starved as far as human contact as well. 

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Well, John D. Lee didn't fare so well.

I really don’t believe Brigham Young was stupid enough to order Lee to attack a wagon train while he was working to negotiate some kind of truce with the federal government.

I don’t think prophetic counsel applies in his case.

[JLHPROF]

16 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

No, I equate inner compasses as personal revelation which Pres Nelson has given many talks on as of late, I believe. Why wouldn't we be on par with prophets, why are they special and we aren't as far as comparing their revelation to ours? How can one trust a prophet when they are fallible? Why wouldn't we choose our own revelation and rely on our compass, the one we have that directs our lives, the lives we live, not the prophet. The prophet doesn't live in our lives normally, he's in his world, we're in our own worlds. He's not in our thoughts, he can't read all our minds. He isn't God.

The trustworthiness in prophets lessens the more we see they can be wrong and sometimes in dangerous ways. I'm thinking of other denominations that have prophets as well. What of the prophets that have condemned those that are gay in the past, and the lives that have been taken because of it? There are many examples I could give. What of the lives that have been harmed because of the law of polygamy (think Brigham Young) in it's day? Not all polygamous marriages were good, women and their children starved because of lack of care, and starved as far as human contact as well. 

It's an issue of authority, not spirituality.
You have every right to personal revelation and to live your life according to it.
A person doesn't have the right to receive revelation that is binding on someone else outside their authority.

The Prophet is the one appointed by the Lord to receive revelation to direct his Church.  It's not that complicated.

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I really don’t believe Brigham Young was stupid enough to order Lee to attack a wagon train while he was working to negotiate some kind of truce with the federal government.

I don’t think prophetic counsel applies in his case.

Actually, I believe Lee blamed Pres. George A. Smith of the First Presidency, and assumed it came from Pres. Young.

Per a quick Wiki search:
"in the Life and Confessions of John D. Lee he (or an editor) wrote, "I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young."

Edited August 2, 2021 by JLHPROF

[Tacenda]

10 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

It's an issue of authority, not spirituality.
You have every right to personal revelation and to live your life according to it.
A person doesn't have the right to receive revelation that is binding on someone else outside their authority.

The Prophet is the one appointed by the Lord to receive revelation to direct his Church.  It's not that complicated.

I wouldn't prophesy for someone else, or tell them something is from God. That's what they call using the Lord's name in vain. Good thing I finally learned it doesn't have anything to do with swearing. 

[The Nehor]

38 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Actually, I believe Lee blamed Pres. George A. Smith of the First Presidency, and assumed it came from Pres. Young.

Per a quick Wiki search:
"in the Life and Confessions of John D. Lee he (or an editor) wrote, "I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young."

So a member of the First Presidency was in the area so he assumed that it was about the wagon train and decided that was a kill order?

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

2 hours ago, JAHS said:

President Heber H Grant once said:

"You always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it."

We can't suspect that everything they say might be wrong. We have to have some degree of trust and faith in them, otherwise there will be disorder in the church and in our minds.

And he was wrong.

OK, but says who? Your opinion I assume?

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Which prophetesses are we ignoring? Name one in the LDS church? They have been squelched because of the inequality of women's authority in the church. 

To the bold: haha, thanks! Forgive my strange posts, I feel comfortable on the board, and you get to see the real me, no one sees. 

My own wife was an incredible prophetess. She knew things were coming in the church before we heard it from the president of the church.

[JLHPROF]

1 minute ago, JAHS said:

OK, but says who? Your opinion I assume?

Common sense I would think.
I missed the part where God is ok with sin if it's commanded by someone with a prophetic title.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

So this off the cuff comment related to us second hand decades after the fact is what you base your belief on? Doesn’t that seem kind of flimsy to you? 

President Benson agreed with it as recorded in the gospel doctrine manual "Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Ezra Taft Benson" which we all studied in our church course.
 

[JAHS]

15 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Common sense I would think.
I missed the part where God is ok with sin if it's commanded by someone with a prophetic title.

I'm not talking about sin; I am talking about church doctrines. I don't know of any prophet that has told me to sin.

[bOObOO]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I'm not talking about sin; I am talking about church doctrines. I don't know of any prophet that has told me to sin.

That's like saying it's not a sin if God tells you to do it.  But what exactly are you talking about?  Replace the word "sin" with some explicit action and then say whether or not you think that act is or was or would be a sin.

Like, I don't know of any prophet that has told me to kill someone when that act of killing someone was or would be a sin.  Seriously.  I don't know of any prophet who has done that.

Edited August 2, 2021 by bOObOO

[Kevin Christensen]

1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Actually, I believe Lee blamed Pres. George A. Smith of the First Presidency, and assumed it came from Pres. Young.

Per a quick Wiki search:
"in the Life and Confessions of John D. Lee he (or an editor) wrote, "I have always believed, since that day, that General George A. Smith was then visiting southern Utah to prepare the people for the work of exterminating Captain Fancher's train of emigrants, and I now believe that he was sent for that purpose by the direct command of Brigham Young."

For the sources behind the Confessions, and a bit of its history, see Richard Turley, "Problems with Mountain Meadows Massacre Sources" in BYU Studes 47:3, 2008.  

https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/problems-with-mountain-meadows-massacre-sources/

Also worth a close look, Hugh Nibley's discussion of Lee's journals and the book his attourney published after his death, in Tinkling Brass and Sounding Symbols, in the "Is there a Danite in the House? You Never Know" chapter, pages 668-679. 

FWIW,

Kevin Christensen

Canonsburg, PA

[Calm]

3 hours ago, JAHS said:

President Heber H Grant once said:

"You always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it."

We can't suspect that everything they say might be wrong. We have to have some degree of trust and faith in them, otherwise there will be disorder in the church and in our minds.

True, but what if this was one of the uncommon errors?  What if the Lord places more value on us seeking his Spirit to follow with guidance from prophets rather than dependency on prophets, such that when prophets are wrong, he holds us accountable if we don’t seek the Spirit and instead just go ahead and do it, assuming the Lord is okay with that?

Edited August 2, 2021 by Calm

[JAHS]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

True, but what if this was one of the uncommon errors?  What if the Lord places more value on us seeking his Spirit to follow with guidance from prophets rather than dependency on prophets, such that when prophets are wrong, he holds us accountable if we don’t seek the Spirit and instead just go ahead and do it, assuming the Lord is okay with that?

The guidance I normally seek from God is how to apply a certain directive or doctrine to my life that has come from the prophet or even decide if it applies to me at all. 
There are doctrines of knowledge or interpretations of doctrines that a prophet might declare, but whether he is right or wrong they are not the kind that would put my eternal life in jeopardy.  Like I said before I don't know of any prophet that has told me to actually do something wrong that would cause me to commit sin.

[mfbukowski]

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

True, but what if this was one of the uncommon errors?  What if the Lord places more value on us seeking his Spirit to follow with guidance from prophets rather than dependency on prophets, such that when prophets are wrong, he holds us accountable if we don’t seek the Spirit and instead just go ahead and do it, assuming the Lord is okay with that?

The Lord would have not even given us personal revelation if he had not wanted us to use it, and Moroni 10 4-5 would not exist.

Blind obedience leads to Jonestown, not the Celestial Kingdom 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

Edited August 2, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

This is one of your stranger posts.

Prophets are a thing because God said they are a thing.
Inner compasses are not a thing, unless you are referring to the light of Christ.  And the Holy Ghost is a higher revelator than that.
And which prophetesses are we ignoring?  I'd love to know.

Given the track record of prophets I will stick to my own critical thinking skills and inner compass.

[JAHS]

5 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said:

I don't need to set myself up as anything other than a member of a covenant society trying to do my best where I am.  I did notice that as a Prophet Elder Benson was considerably softer in tone than he was as an apostle.  I think he may have learned something he did not know before.

I noticed that to. As soon as he became prophet his main topic he spoke on was usually about the Book of Mormon.