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Federal lawsuit against religious schools, including byu


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1 minute ago, AtlanticMike said:

So it's your opinion in this situation you stand from afar and wait to see what happens? And then if he attacks, then help?

You are really obsessed with this horror fantasy you've cooked up.

So, yes. Something like that. An attack wouldn't happen instantaneously. He'd have to stop the bike, dismount, cross the distance. Each of those things takes time.  I'd have time to start walking in that general direction. I'd probably walk a little wide, to look like I wasn't targeting her.

If I had to get within 30 yards or so I'd start addressing him directly. "Hey buddy. What do you need? Here, I'll help you. Come over here and talk to me." Every inch of this is the goal of getting me and him away from her as quickly and calmly as possible. I'd try to find a way to ask the woman she's okay with me moving in that direction and intercepting him. I'd want to strongly signal that my movements are under her control.

At this point the goal is to making a space where she can wrap up with as little of us as possible.

That's the fantasy. Here's the reality. Once I announced my presence and awareness, that guy wasn't going to do jack. He probably wasn't going to before but with me there the odds go down to some number that's too close to zero to measure.

You know what odds are tons higher than zero? That woman living her day surrounded by guys who make her life harder by doing what they want - because stuff they put together in their head somehow outweighs her actual expertise.

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27 minutes ago, kllindley said:

You are seriously asking how stripping the ability of any religious school that upholds a sexual ethic consistent with their religion to participate in federal programs could harm me or my children?

Yes, I am.

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12 minutes ago, Chum said:

So, yes. Something like that. An attack wouldn't happen instantaneously. He'd have to stop the bike, dismount, cross the distance. Each of those things takes time.  I'd have time to start walking in that general direction. I'd probably walk a little wide, to look like I wasn't targeting her.

To clarify something. Once bikeguy does anything toward that woman - that's the point where we should assume this has escalated into an assault. As I move in that direction, I'm participating in the assault. He and I are both causing harm. My ethical choices are the ones that minimize the harm we're doing.

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46 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

This is totally backwards. If it was about me and I was worried about just myself I would stay back and just watch from afar. Because I would know at least I was going home that night, who cares about the woman, not my problem. Of course inserting yourself in a situation that could be potentially harmful for a woman or a man is about them!! It's 100 percent about them, because as the person who is standing far away from the danger zone you don't have to do anything unless you want to. 

   Here's something that happened at one of my daughters birthday parties. We had her party at a park under a canopy. 30 or so people around grilling hamburgers. 5 of the girls were playing horseshoes about  200 feet away and a guy from another canopy  approached the girls, just talking to them. He was about 45 or so and it made 3 of us dad's very uncomfortable. So we went right over and asked what he was talking to them for. He played it off and walked to his car and drove away. One of the dad's with me was a police officer and he called one of his friends working that day and had him run the guys plate. Turns out he was a sex offender and lived only 6 streets down from me. I didn't even know. 

   Are you saying I should of waited to see what happened? Should we of not approached? I'm mean, who knows, he could of just been trying to be nice and have a conversation. Were we trying to be heroes?

Does the whole situation change when it's s woman I don't knoe in a parking lot?  Is she less important than my daughter and her friends because I never met her? 

 

PS. Up to that point I had never known there was a sex offender list online. You want to see something scary, pull it up and look how many are around you, it's scary, you'll never want your kids to play outside again.

    

I get that you see it's backwards, but that's honestly part of the problem.  I don't doubt that you are probably a good guy.  I'd likely be happy to have you in my corner any time, but you said in the other post that you didn't care what the woman wanted, all that mattered was what you wanted.  This is about you because it's about what you want, even if it's not what the woman wants. 

As to the story, I'm glad you were there for your daughter, but you are her dad.  I'm really expecting you to know the difference between putting yourself, a stranger, into the bubble of a woman who is alone, and you as a dad going over to protect your daughter and other girls who know you.  You do know there's a difference, right?

I've been looking at the sex offender list for decades.  You are right in that it can be very disheartening.

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Chum said:

Once I announced my presence and awareness, that guy wasn't going to do jack. He probably wasn't going to before but with me there the odds go down to some number that's too close to zero to measure.

One can always pull out one’s phone as one walks and obviously record the man, not the woman, as well to decrease likelihood of assault.

Quote

You know what odds are tons higher than zero? That woman living her day surrounded by guys who make her life harder by doing what they want - because stuff they put together in their head somehow outweighs her actual expertise.

It can be exhausting at times....including the hours spent trying to persuade the guy his ‘gut instinct’ doesn’t override my experience and own instinct.

Edited by Calm
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15 minutes ago, Chum said:

Once I announced my presence and awareness, that guy wasn't going to do jack. He probably wasn't going to before but with me there the odds go down to some number that's too close to zero to measure.

If you actually believe a criminal cares if your 50 yards away watching him, well, I hate to tell you, most don't care. 

 

18 minutes ago, Chum said:

You know what odds are tons higher than zero? That woman living her day surrounded by guys who make her life harder by doing what they want - because stuff they put together in their head somehow outweighs her actual expertise.

To any man or woman reading this in Virginia. If you see a pretty Filipino woman in a Wal Mart parking driving a lifted black suburban and she's about to be attacked by a guy on a bicycle, thats my wife, please don't stand 50 yards away from her asking her if you can approach. Please for the love of God, run towards her screaming, that xxxxer xxxxer on the bike is about to attack you! She'll turn around and pull out her Glock 43x and point it at him. Thank you in advance. You're my hero!

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1 hour ago, kllindley said:

So when we talk about the diseparate impact the BYU Honor Code (and by extension, the Law of Chastity) has on different students, why do we not also criticize the way it discriminates against marital status?

I'll do you one better: Why do we not lose our minds over colleges - mostly seminaries, but a few secular 4-year schools as well - which receive federal funding and discriminate based on sex (i.e., no women allowed)?

Or over religious schools like Fuller (mentioned by me previously) which reserve the right to discriminate based on religion (i.e., Christians only)?

Because, for religious schools we recognize that they ought to have the right to hold those who voluntarily wish to be part of their community to agreed-upon religious and moral standards.

And if you don't want to belong to such a community there are literally hundreds - sorry, just Googled it - thousands of other options available. 

So let's not pretend that BYU is the higher ed equivalent of the dreaded one-florist town. Heck, BYU isn't even the only university in the city of Provo for crying out loud.

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I have my right hand raised calm, here's my pledge, I, Atlanticmike, a privileged white male who thinks I know best on every subject, especially when it comes to crime in Walmart parking lots, promise to never ever help a woman or man ever again no matter the situation. Also, I will devote the rest of my life to rescuing cats and such, except for cats that live in or around Walmart parking lots. 

   Man, maybe you are right, I feel like a weight had been lifted. I'm free! I'm free!

 

You know, being a jerk after being corrected is no more impressive than insisting one is knows more what is important to a woman than the woman does. 

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

These five words shows me that you and I will never see eye to eye on this subject what so ever. I'm not built to sit back and watch from afar and wait. Sorry no can do. 

Because at the end of the day what matters to you is you and not the woman.  Got it.  
 

Hey, what fun.  Playing “I know best” makes life so much easier than actually having to listen to people.

Edited by Calm
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10 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

she's about to be attacked by a guy on a bicycle,

Strawman...in the case being discussed the guy is circling and not attacking.  Unless you are clairvoyant, you have no way of knowing someone is about to attack.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Chum said:

At some point this mindset becomes indistinguishable from forcing oneself on women.

No doesn’t really mean no, after all, since bottom line is women don’t know actually what is good for them.

 

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

That's cold man. 

Some truth is hard.  Being told to grow up can be embarrassing when one is an adult.

Edited by Calm
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16 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Please for the love of God, run towards her screaming, that xxxxer xxxxer on the bike is about to attack you! She'll turn around and pull out her Glock 43x and point it at him.

Seriously?  I would be pointing my gun at the guy running and screaming at me...but thanks for distracting me from the real danger.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

it was about me and I was worried about just myself

We are not saying it is about you because you are more concerned with protecting your physical state, we are saying it is more about you simply because you don’t care what the woman thinks, she is an object for you to act on, not a human being with intelligence and agency in your scenario. 
 

 If you sat down next to a woman at a restaurant and went ahead and ordered for her and when she protested she didn’t think that was appropriate because she should have the right to make choices that affect her even after you told her you were a frequent customer and therefore knew the best dishes and you came away all indignant she got upset with you, would you miss the point that you being upset was a result of being self centered rather than considering her POV?

Bottomline, you are expecting women to like being treated like a child or a pet because you put effort into it or risked yourself or even just noticed she existed.  But women have brains that tend to work rather well and most don’t like it when patronized...just like men.

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Yes!!  Like the bolded above says, at this point it's not even about the woman, it's about you.  You aren't doing it for her you are doing it for yourself, making yourself and your wants and your needs the most important person in the equation.  It's so refreshing to hear a man admit it.

As to the underlined part, if I was ever in that situation, I would see you walking towards me, and the guy getting off of his bike and walking towards me, as the exact same threat.  In that instance you are no different in my mind than the guy on the bike because I don't know either of you, or either of your intentions.  Whatever reaction I would have to the guy, I would have to you walking over uninvited as well. 

I know you see yourself as the hero of the situation, the one she needs even if it's against her wishes, but just because you are the hero in your story doesn't mean you are the hero in her's.

I totally agree. I would see both uncommunicative strangers heading towards me as a potential threat. I would also wonder if they were acting together, double-teaming a lone woman. 

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Posted (edited)
56 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm glad you were there for your daughter, but you are her dad. 

He also is describing the situation as approaching the guy who is the problem, not the woman/girls who are not.  If he has problems with a bicyclist who is circling a woman and can’t stop himself, then go confront the man, don’t hover over a woman who is doing nothing wrong.

Edited by Calm
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51 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

If you actually believe a criminal cares if your 50 yards away watching him, well, I hate to tell you, most don't care. 

 

To any man or woman reading this in Virginia. If you see a pretty Filipino woman in a Wal Mart parking driving a lifted black suburban and she's about to be attacked by a guy on a bicycle, thats my wife, please don't stand 50 yards away from her asking her if you can approach. Please for the love of God, run towards her screaming, that xxxxer xxxxer on the bike is about to attack you! She'll turn around and pull out her Glock 43x and point it at him. Thank you in advance. You're my hero!

Sadly in today's world people just pull out their phones and film it. If you help you will just get sued and cancelled. I was evidently raised the same as you and taught to help people in these situations male or female. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Sadly in today's world people just pull out their phones and film it. If you help you will just get sued and cancelled. I was evidently raised the same as you and taught to help people in these situations male or female. 

No one is saying don’t help, we are saying actually help someone rather than assume you are helping.

Do you go ahead and give money to anyone who is begging because you were taught to be charitable or has experience taught you that sometimes true charity is not giving money, but helping in another way?
 

 One size fits all responses can do more damage than help.

Edited by Calm
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3 hours ago, Amulek said:

I'm sorry, but the Obergefell decision was, to put it lightly, a hot mess. It's very much like Roe v Wade in the sense that many people agree with the outcome but it will take years before there is a critical consensus among legal experts that the reasoning behind the decision was pretty clearly wrong. 

Chief Justice Roberts was completely right when he said, "If you are among the many Americans—of whatever sexual orientation—who favor expanding same-sex marriage by all means celebrate today’s decision. Celebrate the achievement of a desired goal. Celebrate the opportunity for a new expression of commitment to a partner. Celebrate the availability of new benefits. But do not celebrate the Constitution. It had nothing to do with it"

 

I understand if you are claiming to know more about constitutional law than the Supreme Court justices, but it sounds more like a political opinion than a legal opinion

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55 minutes ago, Calm said:

We are not saying it is about you because you are more concerned with protecting your physical state, we are saying it is more about you simply because you don’t care what the woman thinks, she is an object for you to act on, not a human being with intelligence and agency in your scenario. 
 

 If you sat down next to a woman at a restaurant and went ahead and ordered for her and when she protested she didn’t think that was appropriate because she should have the right to make choices that affect her even after you told her you were a frequent customer and therefore knew the best dishes and you came away all indignant she got upset with you, would you miss the point that you being upset was a result of being self centered rather than considering her POV?

Bottomline, you are expecting women to like being treated like a child or a pet because you put effort into it or risked yourself or even just noticed she existed.  But women have brains that tend to work rather well and most don’t like it when patronized...just like men.

Dang it, I’m out of reactions, but you go girl!

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1 hour ago, Chum said:

As I move in that direction, I'm participating in the assault.

What does this even mean? 

 

1 hour ago, Chum said:

He and I are both causing harm.

What? Wait a minute, what?what?

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59 minutes ago, Calm said:

she is an object for you to act on,

You've got to be kidding me. We have a guy on a bike circling a woman possibly going to attack and then you have a bystander far away contemplating if he should put his self in the middle of the situation, possibly putting hiself in danger also, and somehow you see the guy that doesn't have to act as the guy that's looking at the woman as an object to be acted on?  Serious?

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

 If you sat down next to a woman at a restaurant and went ahead and ordered for her and when she protested she didn’t think that was appropriate because she should have the right to make choices that affect her even after you told her you were a frequent customer and therefore knew the best dishes and you came away all indignant she got upset with you, would you miss the point that you being upset was a result of being self centered rather than considering her POV?

For one, I've never ordered for a woman, that might a generation or two before me. And your missing the point. In the scenario we keep talking about, we're talking about a split second could decide the life of a woman possibly. Your concerned about her feelings, I'm concerned if she'll make it home. 

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