Solution to youth leaving the church

[Calm]

4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I can't find this anywhere else. Is this produced by the church?

I believe it was pulled shortly after produced. We had another thread on it in the past. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Calm

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry, I don't get it. 

I believe he is referring to the thread title....though meaning how to keep kids active and faithful, not just present. 
 

Bribery might keep some in the pews, but if that is all the parents care about during their upbringing and the adult lives of their kids, there is a good chance the faith will not be in their hearts unless something or someone else had a spiritual impact on them. 

[cacheman]

4 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

I have known several families who have left their entire 'fortunes' (in one case, I think very substantial) to the church instead of to children who were estranged from it.

 

My parents have told myself and my brother that they are planning to do that.  Of course, we have no right to their money or possessions,  and I appreciate the fact that they've let us know.  But I really hope they plan to leave something for my sister.  She is still very active in the church,  but struggles financially and has health issues.  

I don't know that they are making their decision due solely to our leaving the faith.  They've always been big on self reliance, and never gave money for college,  cars,  etc.  But they did pay the last 3 months of my mission once my money was gone. 

I'm glad that they taught me to be independent at a young age.  And I carry the self reliance gene they passed on to me.  But, I'll definitely be leaving what I can for my kids when my time comes. 

[katherine the great]

At the end of the day, its the couple’s money and they can do whatever they want with it. Their children did not earn it and really don’t have any right to it outside of their parents choosing to gift it to them. I agree with cacheman about self reliance- that’s the greatest gift we can give our children. That being said, I plan to pass all of wealth to my descendants without stipulation with the exception of substance abuse issues (as Rain mentioned). For those cases, rather than disinherit, I would set up a trust. If the child or grandchild doesn’t like it, they are free to refuse it. 

[Calm]

23 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Maybe because my kids are still young, but I can't imagine not leaving them an equal inheritance. Maybe I'm just naive, but I would think that not giving an equal amount would just cause more tension and jealousy after I die. 

Depends on how much you have supported different kids over the years I am guessing. If you have an independent kid who did everything on their own and did well and another kid who appealed to you to help give them a head start, say pay the deposit for their first home, help their kids with private tutors or coaches, help pay for their own and then their kids’ missions and college...how do you think the independent one who never asked a dime from you because they didn’t want to make it hard for you might feel at the end if they got the same as their sibling who had an easier and better life all along because you made it easy for them?

I have seen a lot of hard feelings in other families between siblings when parents helped or rescued one sibling or the grandkids of one sibling and then when they passed, it was all divided equally even when one or two family members had been pretty much sole caregivers of elderly parents without any financial payback (my mom was always insisting I get a takeout dinner for my family on her dime when I spent my day with her and that made a huge difference to be able to come home tired and still have a good meal to look forward to).

I think the way my dad did it was smart...from the beginning of our married/independent lives, he kept track of any major gifts that were asked for with the intent those gifts would be subtracted from the final inheritance pay out.  Some of the kids maxed out on help compared to what they would have received, so the rest is divided among those of us who didn’t minus anything that was given in help (Dad stepped in and paid off my husband’s student loan when the Canadian dollar was struggling, for example).  However, each grandchild is receiving the same cash amount so they are not being penalized by their parents’ choices to ask for help. 
 

There were many times in my life that my plans with my parents took a second seat to others in the family, even once when I begged for help (an unfortunate side effect of a lifetime of being self sufficient, the one who doesn’t rock the boat is that people can’t conceive you have actually lost footing). It was hard for me not to feel like I just wasn’t as important in my parents’ lives as other siblings who they were willing to spend more time with as well as more money on. If that had also been the last message I got, that my efforts to live their teachings about being prudent with spending didn’t make any difference...that would have been hard even though we don’t need the money.

I also think it is smarter to help if you have the money early on as that may lead to a better life overall rather than telling your kids they are getting an nice inheritance and then they have to spend it on getting medical help because they never got the treatment or therapy they needed when younger or to subsidize a sparse retirement because one couldn’t take a risk because there was no safety net from parents who were willing and able to be a back up at a crucial time in one’s career.  Or one of the grandkids is not only gifted, but also driven by a dream and getting extra help at the right time may make the difference.  Otoh, paying for extravagant vacations for only some members of the family or helping to buy a house a child can’t afford on their own...don’t see that as a good idea unless there are significant needs of a family member (need adaptions to the house due to health issues).

 

Edited May 23, 2021 by Calm

[secondclasscitizen]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

I believe he is referring to the thread title....though meaning how to keep kids active and faithful, not just present. 
 

Bribery might keep some in the pews, but if that is all the parents care about during their upbringing and the adult lives of their kids, there is a good chance the faith will not be in their hearts unless something or someone else had a spiritual impact on them. 

🙏 amen

[Tacenda]

22 minutes ago, cacheman said:

My parents have told myself and my brother that they are planning to do that.  Of course, we have no right to their money or possessions,  and I appreciate the fact that they've let us know.  But I really hope they plan to leave something for my sister.  She is still very active in the church,  but struggles financially and has health issues.  

I don't know that they are making their decision due solely to our leaving the faith.  They've always been big on self reliance, and never gave money for college,  cars,  etc.  But they did pay the last 3 months of my mission once my money was gone. 

I'm glad that they taught me to be independent at a young age.  And I carry the self reliance gene they passed on to me.  But, I'll definitely be leaving what I can for my kids when my time comes. 

Do they know the kind of wealth the church has? I don't understand parents that would leave all to the church, if maybe their children or grandchildren could use it. Nowadays it's getting incredibly difficult for the younger generation to ever have what the older generation were able to acquire, like a modest home for a family. Most will only be able to rent or live back with their parents. And what about health insurance, that's another avenue that might get scary in the future. The church is the last place that needs more wealth. Their wealth is so sickening to me until they show more output then they have as of yet. I'm glad for every morsel it gives but it's not enough to substantiate giving your children's inheritance to it, because it's really not a charity, IMO.  

The video I believe the opening poster put on, didn't click on it yet, is one that has since been taken down, it must not have came across well to some people. And I can see why! But maybe I better check. If it's a new one then I have no words.

[secondclasscitizen]

4 hours ago, JamesBYoung said:

I have known several families who have left their entire 'fortunes' (in one case, I think very substantial) to the church instead of to children who were estranged from it.

 

Did they tell the kids ahead of time? There is a difference. In one case the kids have no idea. In the other they do know and possibly a couple kids who would otherwise leave just stick around for the payout then leave. 

[Calm]

Previous thread when this video first came out:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/66008-withholding-inheritance-from-unworthy-children/

 

[katherine the great]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

I think the way my dad did it was smart...from the beginning of our married/independent lives, he kept track of any major gifts that were asked for with the intent those gifts would be subtracted from the final inheritance pay out.  Some of the kids maxed out on help compared to what they would have received, so the rest is divided among those of us who didn’t minus anything that was given in help (Dad stepped in and paid off my husband student loan when the Canadian dollar was struggling, for example).  However, each grandchild is receiving the same cash amount so they are not being penalized by their parents’ choices to ask for help. 

Smart!  I probably won't bother with this because there are a few variables in our case. Our oldest and youngest both have unique (likely genetic) challenges that they did not choose. I don't anticipate either of them ever having the earning power of our three middle children. I have considered (but probably won't) leaving a bonus to those with children. Not by way of manipulation or reward but because it is so blasted expensive to raise children these days. There are some physical and emotional reasons to not have children (or many children) though so maybe contributions to college funds might have to suffice. 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

I don't anticipate either of them ever having the earning power of our three middle children. I

Yep. I have two kids and unless we win the lottery or something, likely we will just set up with whatever we have once we figure out our retirement (we have money in Canada so hard to know for sure at this point) a trust or whatever is best financially speaking to support our daughter who is 30 and still hasn’t graduated from high school or had a job or leaves the house much except for doctors’ appts.  Medical insurance for her numerous issues is our biggest concern. Makes me physically ill when I think of it.  
 

Thankfully our son is doing just fine, way ahead of where we were at when his age.  He is a great brother and his wife looks out for our daughter as well. His kids are very familiar with their aunt’s difficulties, so there likely will be no hard feelings if it all gets dumped in her lap and instead she will likely be moving in with their dad and mom or one of them even. 

[CA Steve]

43 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

At the end of the day, its the couple’s money and they can do whatever they want with it.

Maybe.

My parents received the same kind of help from their parents that they provided to us, some of which was financial. My father  passed away last year and we are still going through his papers. In them I found letters to his father-in-law (not LDS) asking if they (my parents) could put off that month's car payment check because they were a bit short. My grandparents had loaned them the money to buy a car as well as helping them get into their first house, something my parents did for me way back when.

In my opinion, it would be hypocritical to have received that kind of help while refusing to pass it along. Each situation is different but if families really are the focus of the gospel, that is where the most help should be given. When my wife and I were struggling many years ago with finances, the first question our bishop asked us when we sought his help and advice, was if we had sought help from our own families. I know the small sums of money my parents and my wife's parents left us in their estates enabled up to better care for our own children and grandchildren. Again, each situation is different but if it is a choice between giving money to the church which seems to have enough money to last several lifetimes and making my kids and grandkid's life a bit easier, it seems to be a no brainer. It is a personal choice but really when you look at it, most of us had parents who helped us in one way or another to get where we are, we should pass that help along as best we can.

[CV75]

6 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Bribe them. Inheritance of wealth is contingent upon the kids proving temple worthiness at the time of inheritance. If they can’t then the church wants you to give the money to the church instead. 

see video at about 10:30

https://archive.org/details/watchvpxa6nt-ydqc

kinda messed up if you ask me. Of course my parents promised me a car and to pay for college if I went on a mission so perhaps it’s a Mormon cultural thing. 

From the link: "A documentary produced for LDS Philanthropies that details one family's efforts to keep money from being a stumbling block to their children. A few years after this video was produced it was removed because some people thought it was emphasizing the use of money to keep children active in the Church. As a whole, though, this film is about much more than that and is only one family's story. The lessons to be learned from it are personal and I hope it provides you as a viewer with a fair view into the benefits and potential drawbacks of donations to LDS Philanthropies."

What loving parent would not do what they think is fair in good faith? I see how some traditions may not resonate with everyone, and relatively wealthy families tend to think differently from others in reconciling philanthropy with charity, legalities with responsibility and legacy with instilling Christian values in their children.

[katherine the great]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

trust or whatever is best financially speaking to support our daughter who is 30 and still hasn’t graduated from high school or had a job or leaves the house much except for doctors’ appts.  Medical insurance for her numerous issues is our biggest concern. Makes me physically ill when I think of it.  

When I hear you speak about your daughter I feel like you are me in disguise (except my daughter is 25).  I totally feel your pain.

[poptart]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Do they know the kind of wealth the church has? I don't understand parents that would leave all to the church, if maybe their children or grandchildren could use it. Nowadays it's getting incredibly difficult for the younger generation to ever have what the older generation were able to acquire, like a modest home for a family. Most will only be able to rent or live back with their parents. And what about health insurance, that's another avenue that might get scary in the future. The church is the last place that needs more wealth. Their wealth is so sickening to me until they show more output then they have as of yet. I'm glad for every morsel it gives but it's not enough to substantiate giving your children's inheritance to it, because it's really not a charity, IMO.  

The video I believe the opening poster put on, didn't click on it yet, is one that has since been taken down, it must not have came across well to some people. And I can see why! But maybe I better check. If it's a new one then I have no words.

The LDS church is worth billions isn't it?  Read something a while ago, that's what they're rumored to be worth.  

Healthcare in this country is in for rough times, the money for medicare/medicaid and social security simply won't be there.  Look at covid, as it is some places were rationing ventilators, it'll only get worse.  Unless the American people decide to stop being so petty and act like decent human beings again I think healthcare will go back to what it used to be, unless you have resources you're simply not going to get what you can now.  

All I'll say about children and inheritance, children and siblings make the most bitter of enemies, they know everything about you.  Nothing is sacred, with social media and contemporary American morals being what they are it is foolish to think you can deny something that someone else feels entitled to and they won't wait years for the right moment to try to do something horrible.  I've seen it as well as the end results, children on the streets, dead from drugs and the parents either homeless in old age or if they're lucky in a horrible nursing home.   

Nursing home staff throw and racially abuse elderly patient - YouTube

Edited May 22, 2021 by poptart

[katherine the great]

39 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

In my opinion, it would be hypocritical to have received that kind of help while refusing to pass it along. Each situation is different but if families really are the focus of the gospel, that is where the most help should be given. When my wife and I were struggling many years ago with finances, the first question our bishop asked us when we sought his help and advice, was if we had sought help from our own families. I know the small sums of money my parents and my wife's parents left us in their estates enabled up to better care for our own children and grandchildren. Again, each situation is different but if it is a choice between giving money to the church which seems to have enough money to last several lifetimes and making my kids and grandkid's life a bit easier, it seems to be a no brainer. It is a personal choice but really when you look at it, most of us had parents who helped us in one way or another to get where we are, we should pass that help along as best we can.

I agree with all of this. Frankly, I’m judging them all the way to the bank. But it is still their money and they have the right to leave it to whoever they want. I personally find their method very manipulative and controlling but that’s just my opinion.

[poptart]

42 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Maybe.

My parents received the same kind of help from their parents that they provided to us, some of which was financial. My father  passed away last year and we are still going through his papers. In them I found letters to his father-in-law (not LDS) asking if they (my parents) could put off that month's car payment check because they were a bit short. My grandparents had loaned them the money to buy a car as well as helping them get into their first house, something my parents did for me way back when.

In my opinion, it would be hypocritical to have received that kind of help while refusing to pass it along. Each situation is different but if families really are the focus of the gospel, that is where the most help should be given. When my wife and I were struggling many years ago with finances, the first question our bishop asked us when we sought his help and advice, was if we had sought help from our own families. I know the small sums of money my parents and my wife's parents left us in their estates enabled up to better care for our own children and grandchildren. Again, each situation is different but if it is a choice between giving money to the church which seems to have enough money to last several lifetimes and making my kids and grandkid's life a bit easier, it seems to be a no brainer. It is a personal choice but really when you look at it, most of us had parents who helped us in one way or another to get where we are, we should pass that help along as best we can.

Sadly, that's not how it is with many families here stateside.   Something an LDS friend of mine told me, one of the first things Jesus asks you after death, how did you treat your family?  I think about the only thing that would scare me more if I was recently deceased spouse would be if Christ's Mom asked me that.  

[Calm]

28 minutes ago, katherine the great said:

When I hear you speak about your daughter I feel like you are me in disguise (except my daughter is 25).  I totally feel your pain.

If you haven’t already, you may need to check your insurance coverage or other options for your daughter if she is on your plan, especially if she hasn’t worked. We were lucky when the insurance company that runs the program for the university refused to cover her when she became 26, the university insisted they do it.  Not sure what happens in 3 years when my husband retires. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Calm

[katherine the great]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

If you haven’t already, you may need to check your insurance coverage or other options for your daughter if she is on your plan, especially if she hasn’t worked. We were lucky when the insurance company that runs the program for the university refused to cover her when she became 26, the university insisted they do it.  Not sure what happens in 3 years when my husband retires. 

We got her on Medicaid last year when she was just working part time. She’s not working at all right now so I’m not sure how long she’ll be able to stay on it but it pays for literally everything— it even paid for her to be life- flighted during an emergency. 

[CV75]

It would be interesting to locate this family and see what became of them. Kind of like a feature news article...

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, cacheman said:

My parents have told myself and my brother that they are planning to do that.  Of course, we have no right to their money or possessions,  and I appreciate the fact that they've let us know.  But I really hope they plan to leave something for my sister.  She is still very active in the church,  but struggles financially and has health issues.  

I don't know that they are making their decision due solely to our leaving the faith.  They've always been big on self reliance, and never gave money for college,  cars,  etc.  But they did pay the last 3 months of my mission once my money was gone. 

I'm glad that they taught me to be independent at a young age.  And I carry the self reliance gene they passed on to me.  But, I'll definitely be leaving what I can for my kids when my time comes. 

I always had to fend for myself since leaving home at age 17 (USMC).  My parents had no spare money, and they likewise had to fend for themselves during the Great Depression.  We all thought that was the normal self-reliance situation. We children always got jobs and paid our own way, though one brother did get a loan cosigned in order to get through Medical School.  He paid it back quickly once he was a doctor.

In her 90s, Mom did give all of us quite a bit of money. and a great deal more in her will.  That was primarily because the home she and Dad had purchased in 1952 had greatly appreciated in value.

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, poptart said:

The LDS church is worth billions isn't it?  Read something a while ago, that's what they're rumored to be worth.  

Healthcare in this country is in for rough times, the money for medicare/medicaid and social security simply won't be there.  Look at covid, as it is some places were rationing ventilators, it'll only get worse.  Unless the American people decide to stop being so petty and act like decent human beings again I think healthcare will go back to what it used to be, unless you have resources you're simply not going to get what you can now.  

All I'll say about children and inheritance, children and siblings make the most bitter of enemies, they know everything about you.  Nothing is sacred, with social media and contemporary American morals being what they are it is foolish to think you can deny something that someone else feels entitled to and they won't wait years for the right moment to try to do something horrible.  I've seen it as well as the end results, children on the streets, dead from drugs and the parents either homeless in old age or if they're lucky in a horrible nursing home.   

Nursing home staff throw and racially abuse elderly patient - YouTube

I had to quit watching, my mom got early onset Alzheimer's and showed signs at 62. My dad cared for her at home but for the last 10 years of her life she was in a care center. And we've no idea if my mom was abused like this man was, but I often wondered if she was treated right. I wish now we would have just had her stay with one of her children, and we could have each taken turns. But then she'd escape and we worried for her safety. She didn't know my dad at one point and would ask where Jerry was, and get really upset with my dad. She even thought my sister was my dad's girlfriend and got upset. So it felt like our only option at the time. But seeing youtubes of elderly abuse makes me sick to my stomach. My mom was in four different ones, the good ones at that time were hard to find. 

 

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, secondclasscitizen said:

Did they tell the kids ahead of time? There is a difference. In one case the kids have no idea. In the other they do know and possibly a couple kids who would otherwise leave just stick around for the payout then leave. 

My in laws went to each of their children and made sure they were all sitting good and then proceeded to donate a good chunk of their money to the church, they have a trust with the church as well. So no one would be blindsided I guess. 

My sisters and their husbands always go on these big vacations every year, they live in California away from the rest of my family and are extra close. One of their husbands always joke that they're spending their kids inheritances. 

I think something Calm said made good sense. That is that if the parents could spend money on their kids while the kids could enjoy or really use it is one good way to do it. 

Or some parents take their family and grandchildren on vacations, and get good bonding moments with them and precious memories. 

But bribing kids to stay in the church is just a bad idea all around. I do get why parents wouldn't want to feed a drug habit or leave money for children that really don't deserve it. And other reasons. My old bishop works for the church and went to lunch with my husband and they discussed the subject and he did say the church usually didn't like parents donating their kids' inheritances if it causes problems in families. 

[mgy401]

I didn’t catch the vibe that the Mellor family (subjects of the video) were imposing a quid pro quo.  In context, it seemed to me like they set up a philanthropic foundation, put a portion of their assets there, began making donations through it to what they considered worthy causes, and added their kids to the board of directors contingent on the kids’ values remaining in alignment with their own.

I think that makes sense.  Bill Gates set up his foundation to further progressive causes; and I think we can agree that he’d be well within his rights to try to prevent a scenario where one of his kids might get on the foundation board of directors and then wanted to donate a kadjillion dollars to—say—Donald Trump’s next presidential campaign.

The Mellor family also expresses general concern about the way receiving a large quantity of money can change and destroy a person who doesn’t have what they (the Mellors) consider to be a solid moral foundation.  I think that’s something most folks can agree on in principle (allowing for some disparate definitions regarding what exactly constitutes a “solid moral foundation).  I rather suspect that Jon Huntsman, wherever he is, is sort of wishing maybe he hadn’t left his kids (particularly James) quite as much as he did . . .   And I didn’t see the Mellors saying they’d completely disinherit a nonbelieving child; so I’d like to assume that they have no intention of going quite that far.  

That said:  I think the most potent inheritance we can give to our kids is an emotionally healthy childhood, solid values, and the necessary qualifications to ply a sustainable trade.  A few thousand dollars’ inheritance is always nice, and of course a child who’s struggling with individualized financial setbacks through no fault of their own may require a few tens of thousands of dollars.  But when we are talking about a multi-million dollar estate (the Mellors seem to run an engineering firm that handles large government/military contracts)—there’s just no reason in today’s economy that a functional, healthy adult needs to inherit a million dollars from a deceased parent.  I support a parent’s right to do that for their kids if they want to; but I don’t have a lot of sympathy for kids who think something like that is a matter of birthright.

My understanding, too, is that American courts are looking with increasing disfavor at attempts by decedents to exercise “dead hand control” over their heirs via their estate plans.  Conditioning an inheritance on the beneficiary’s conformance to any religious lifestyle seems legally risky to me—much simpler to just give an unconditional stipend to the kid, give the rest to the Church outright, and have done with it.  

Edited May 23, 2021 by mgy401

[Tacenda]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

It would be interesting to locate this family and see what became of them. Kind of like a feature news article...

They are probably related to me, same last name as my grandparents and live in the same area as my grandparents did.