Is ' I'm a christian ' the new ' I'm a mormon '

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

And yet when I provided that requested proof from the churches own website you even question that because why?  It did not confirm your bias.  

I don’t have a bias on the number of Christ centered talks there should be. I’m just interested in getting an accurate idea of the numbers and I don’t trust the church’s website search engine to show that accurately.

If you want to accuse me of having a bias against their website I’ll confess to that. Their search engine is not very useful.

I used the link you provided (of your topic search), compared it to an actual conference address list, and noticed that not all the Christ centered talks in that conference were listed in the topic search.  The search engine missed a few.

[Fair Dinkum]

11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I’m really confused.

I did a search myself, and replied to one of your posts pointing out a number of Christ centered talks that weren’t counted by your topic search but were given in the conference. And I posted a list of them.  I suggested the difference between the number that actually existed and the number the search was showing was probably due to the poor nature of the website’s search engines, which are notoriously bad.

You never responded to that post but maybe that’s because you didn’t see it?

I think you might be taking my posts in a spirit that they aren’t meant, or reading a negative tone into it that’s not there.

Ms Bluebell, First its not "MY" topic search but that of the churches and I'm more than willing to defer to the churches own web managers on what criteria constitutes a Jesus Christ centered conference address but you seem intent on not accepting their criteria, which is fine. 

Yeah it's entirely possible that when you referred to me as a critic I may have misunderstood your tone and am open to clarification.

Edit to Add: This is completely anecdotal but I went back and read one of the talks that was not considered in the Jesus Christ search.  While the talk did make mention of the Savior it's theme was not focused on the Christ , this may well be why is was not included.  The search seems to focus on addresses where the Savior was the central theme of the address and not a mere mention. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

you seem intent on not accepting their criteria, which is fine. 

The website of the search engine has always been poor and now is worse IMO than it was before.  I have used google for most of its existence.  I have never understood the logic used as it misses articles I know exist on the subjects I am researching.

You used to be able to have much more specificity in searching, like limiting articles to a particular individual or group, iirc custom years as well.  
 

Now I can’t get it to pull up quoted material at times.

I have even complained to the guy in charge of the website in the past (a nephew in law), he said there was a huge backlog of stuff they were always trying to catch up on and the less important stuff was neglected.  The site is tons bigger and more complicated now (that was probably 15 years ago or more when I ranted to him, never did get a ward librarian’s database), probably even harder to keep up with stuff now.

 

My nephew did not call me an apostate for my ranting and I have always received nice comments for my feedback through the website over the years.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Calm

[webbles]

43 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Ms Bluebell, First its not "MY" topic search but that of the churches and I'm more than willing to defer to the churches own web managers on what criteria constitutes a Jesus Christ centered conference address but you seem intent on not accepting their criteria, which is fine. 

Yeah it's entirely possible that when you referred to me as a critic I may have misunderstood your tone and am open to clarification.

Edit to Add: This is completely anecdotal but I went back and read one of the talks that was not considered in the Jesus Christ search.  While the talk did make mention of the Savior it's theme was not focused on the Christ , this may well be why is was not included.  The search seems to focus on addresses where the Savior was the central theme of the address and not a mere mention. 

It does look like the website's topic listing is pretty bad.  I just looked at one of the talks that is under the "Jesus Christ" topic and it doesn't seem to be focused on Christ: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/32corbitt?lang=eng

I'm not sure how they identify the topic but I don't think it is very robust.  Maybe the author of the talk submits which topics they want it to go under?

Here's some other topics that are related to Jesus Christ:

Atonement (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/atonement?lang=eng)

Apr 2021 - 6

Apr 2018 - 6

Easter (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/easter?lang=eng)

Apr 2021 - 2

Apr 2018 - 2

Forgiveness (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/forgiveness?lang=eng)

Apr 2021 - 0

Apr 2018 - 2

Grace (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/grace?lang=eng)

Apr 2021 - 0

Apr 2018 - 1

Light of Christ (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/light-of-christ?lang=eng)

Apr 2021 - 1

Apr 2018 - 0

Resurrection (https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/resurrection?lang=eng)

Apr 2021 - 4

Apr 2018 - 2

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Ms Bluebell, First its not "MY" topic search but that of the churches and I'm more than willing to defer to the churches own web managers on what criteria constitutes a Jesus Christ centered conference address but you seem intent on not accepting their criteria, which is fine. 

I referred to it as yours because you were the one who searched for the topic and posted the link to the results.  I tried to make it clear in the rest of the post that I understood it was the church's website who put the list together.  Sorry if that was confusing.

And again, I'm not "intent on not accepting their criteria" I'm dubious that the algorithm they use to compile the list is very good.  Calm outlined in her post why I'm dubious of it.

Quote

Yeah it's entirely possible that when you referred to me as a critic I may have misunderstood your tone and am open to clarification.

I don't consider the term critic to be negative.  I sometimes use it to refer to people who are openly critical of the church.

Quote

Edit to Add: This is completely anecdotal but I went back and read one of the talks that was not considered in the Jesus Christ search.  While the talk did make mention of the Savior it's theme was not focused on the Christ , this may well be why is was not included.  The search seems to focus on addresses where the Savior was the central theme of the address and not a mere mention. 

That could be.

Edited April 16, 2021 by bluebell

[InCognitus]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

The website of the search engine has always been poor and now is worse IMO than it was before.  I have used google for most of its existence.  I have never understood the logic used as it misses articles I know exist on the subjects I am researching.

I agree completely.  Google Advanced search is better, but it's really hard to identify search phrases that fit a Christ themed topic (unless you have something very specific in mind).  Since all of the talks close in the name of Jesus Christ, you can't simply search for those exact words.

This search in Google, for example, returns "About 107,000 results":   

"Jesus Christ" site:https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/

Edit:  After browsing the search results in Google, I do find that the first several Google search pages of talks are Christ themed talks.  It seems that the search engine is ranking them according to frequency.

Edited April 16, 2021 by InCognitus

[Scott Lloyd]

So, with the purported evidence now being in substantial doubt — and, I would add, the criteria for evaluation tenuous — it appears the premise of this thread is a nothing-burger. 

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So, with the purported evidence now being in substantial doubt — and, I would add, the criteria for evaluation tenuous — it appears the premise of this thread is a nothing-burger. 

I think it's an interesting topic, just one that is hard to prove or support without spending a lot of time going through a lot of conference talks.

It feel didn't like it was more centered on Christ than other GCs to me, but it did to the OP, which is why I was interested in seeing some actual data on it.

Edited April 17, 2021 by bluebell

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, bluebell said:

I think it's an interesting topic, just one that is hard to prove or support without spending a lot of time going through a lot of conference talks.

It feel like it was more centered on Christ than other GCs to me, but it did to the OP, which is why I was interested in seeing some actual data on it.

That goes to my point. Until there is substantive proof or support — difficult or laborious that may be to produce — it is at best an expression of opinion. A nothing-burger. The OP claimed there was “hard evidence.” We’ve yet to see it if there is. 
 

And there’s still the point I raised about the subjectivity of determining whether a discourse is or is not “Christ-centered” and how that term is to be defined. A word search, even if reliable, is fallible in that it might overlook synonyms or related words or doctrinal concepts (such as repentance, mercy, salvation, resurrection, Atonement, redemption, spirit prison, pre-mortal existence, war in heaven, crucifixion, sin, forgiveness, parables, healing, deliverance, First Vision, revelation, etc.) that arguably should be considered in context.  
 

I’m having trouble getting the sense of your second paragraph. Did you leave out a word and mean to say you don’t feel it was more centered on Christ than past conferences? If so, I agree with you. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Fair Dinkum]

16 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

That goes to my point. Until there is substantive proof or support — difficult or laborious that may be to produce — it is at best an expression of opinion. A nothing-burger. The OP claimed there was “hard evidence.” We’ve yet to see it if there is. 
 

And there’s still the point I raised about the subjectivity of determining whether a discourse is or is not “Christ-centered” and how that term is to be defined. A word search, even if reliable, is fallible in that it might overlook synonyms or related words or doctrinal concepts that arguably should be considered. 
 

I’m having trouble getting the sense of your second paragraph. Did you leave out a word and mean to say you don’t feel it was more centered on Christ than past conferences? If so, I agree with you. 

Groan. 🙄🙄🙄. I find it interesting that after listening to every address in every session of conference I sensed that this conference had been the most Christ focused conference in recent memory.  I mistakingly thought this was a good thing and decided to share. But instead of finding agreement I immediately received push back, so I took the added step of confirming my impressions by providing evidence from nothing more than the churches own web site. 

For doing this I’ve been attacked, been called a critic, had my evidence from the churches website questioned all for pointing out the fact that the church focused on Christ.

Truly pathetic 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

19 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Groan. 🙄🙄🙄. I find it interesting that after listening to every address in every session of conference I sensed that this conference had been the most Christ focused conference in recent memory.  I mistakingly thought this was a good thing and decided to share. But instead of finding agreement I immediately received push back, so I took the added step of confirming my impressions by providing evidence from nothing more than the churches own web site. 

For doing this I’ve been attacked, been called a critic, had my evidence from the churches website questioned all for pointing out the fact that the church focused on Christ.

Truly pathetic 

 

You’re entitled to your opinion. No one here is begrudging you that. 
 

But you’ve gone beyond the mark and claimed there is “hard evidence” when, from what I can tell, you’ve not yet exerted the effort that would be necessary to provide such evidence. It would be a daunting undertaking, surely, but essential to a definitive — or even a persuasive — conclusion. 

[ttribe]

40 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Groan. 🙄🙄🙄. I find it interesting that after listening to every address in every session of conference I sensed that this conference had been the most Christ focused conference in recent memory.  I mistakingly thought this was a good thing and decided to share. But instead of finding agreement I immediately received push back, so I took the added step of confirming my impressions by providing evidence from nothing more than the churches own web site. 

For doing this I’ve been attacked, been called a critic, had my evidence from the churches website questioned all for pointing out the fact that the church focused on Christ.

Truly pathetic 

 

IMO, the blowback is largely an effort to keep you in your lane; a boundary maintenance exercise, if you will.  I see your "hard evidence" comment as something of a humorous reference to your previous prediction and an enthusiastic celebration of something you wished to see occur in the most recent GC.  However, that "hard evidence" statement is being used as a blunt instrument on you because you are an *outsider* to the more orthodox on this board.  If you were part of the *IN" group, the tone would be far different.  Since you aren't, it wasn't.

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said:

Groan. 🙄🙄🙄. I find it interesting that after listening to every address in every session of conference I sensed that this conference had been the most Christ focused conference in recent memory.  I mistakingly thought this was a good thing and decided to share. But instead of finding agreement I immediately received push back, so I took the added step of confirming my impressions by providing evidence from nothing more than the churches own web site. 

For doing this I’ve been attacked, been called a critic, had my evidence from the churches website questioned all for pointing out the fact that the church focused on Christ.

Truly pathetic 

 

I also think it was a more Christ centered conference. Didn't really think to much about it till I started reading the comments on this thread and how you felt about it, but I actually don't remember to many talks that included quotes or stories about past prophets. I was going to skim through some of the talks before responding to you but I don't think they're up yet, all I could find was summaries of the talks, don't know why. If the talks are up in a few days I'll skim through them, now you got me curious.

[Calm]

18 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

all I could find was summaries of the talks

They were posted likely the Tuesday after, but at least by the Wednesday or Thursday...can’t remember which it was when I posted the link originally.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04?lang=eng

[Calm]

Why don’t we post a few likely talks and find out if everyone agrees they are Christ Centered or not from this last conference and a previous Easter conference?

For example, this one seems Christ centered to me:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/12uchtdorf?lang=eng

[Calm]

12 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said:

For doing this I’ve been attacked

I think it is great that your personal experience was a greater Christ centered conference.  I also don’t need more talks to be Christ centered to see conference in a positive way, so the fact that at times there are less Christ centered talks isn’t a negative to me (just providing context for my comments, I am not being critical because of the claim, but because of the methodology).

As far as being attacked...to me it is more a statistical thing and simply wanting such claims to be accurate.  I prefer my stats well defined and reliable (don’t know if that is a result of my mathematical predilection or my training in psych research) and unfortunately the Church’s search function doesn’t qualify for me as a source that produces such based on my past experiences with it.  So your broad statistical claim comes across as too vague stats and that is unsatisfying enough to cause me to question them.  I want stats I can sink my teeth into.

And therefore I posted my comments.  I read Bluebell as pretty much doing the same.  Not sure about others as my memory is poor today as my brain doesn’t function too well when the world is tilting sideways (vertigo flare...fun, fun, fun) and I am not connecting their posts to each other for some reason, only BB’s today.

Edited April 17, 2021 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Why don’t we post a few likely talks and find out if everyone agrees they are Christ Centered or not from this last conference and a previous Easter conference?

For example, this one seems Christ centered to me:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/12uchtdorf?lang=eng

I would definitely nominate President Oaks’s priesthood session address, “What the Savior Has Done for Us.” I don’t know how a talk could get more Christ centered than that. Ironic, as President Oaks was subjected to harsh criticism for having the temerity to give a talk on the Constitution at this same conference. 
 

 

[MustardSeed]

I would agree with your sentiment. Imo- no stats here- I think there is significant evidence in the past few years to suggest a major effort to show that our church worships Jesus Christ. I like it. 

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I would agree with your sentiment. Imo- no stats here- I think there is significant evidence in the past few years to suggest a major effort to show that our church worships Jesus Christ. I like it. 

Longer than the last few years, in my observation. 

[Kenngo1969]

19 hours ago, webbles said:

It does look like the website's topic listing is pretty bad.  I just looked at one of the talks that is under the "Jesus Christ" topic and it doesn't seem to be focused on Christ: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2021/04/32corbitt?lang=eng ...

Hmm.  I suppose my mileage varies!    

 

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Longer than the last few years, in my observation. 

Yes! The entire span of the gospel has evidence of our belief in Christ.  Goes back to Nephi’s day. 

IMO our current President really underscored the magnification by emphasizing the name of the church.  All talks that followed including those locally that emphasize the Savior seem to me to remind me of the prophet’s not so gentle reminder of our position, And our responsibilities, to follow Him. 

Edited April 17, 2021 by MustardSeed

[Fair Dinkum]

20 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I also think it was a more Christ centered conference. Didn't really think to much about it till I started reading the comments on this thread and how you felt about it, but I actually don't remember to many talks that included quotes or stories about past prophets. I was going to skim through some of the talks before responding to you but I don't think they're up yet, all I could find was summaries of the talks, don't know why. If the talks are up in a few days I'll skim through them, now you got me curious.

Get ready to be attacked, there are some on this board who didn’t like a more Christ centered conference 

Edited April 17, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Calm]

Quote

 

there are some on this board who didn’t like a more Christ centered conference 

My brain fog must be horrendous today since I am lost on how challenging the claim that the current conference is more Christ centered than past ones means that we didn’t like a more Christ centered conference. 
 

When my granddaughter has ice cream, she loves to smother it in whipping cream (that reminds me, got to restock the refrig with it now we are all vaccinated and able to party again).  If I tell her that she is getting carried away with drowning her ice cream this time around and she protests it is no more than she did a year ago, I should realize that she doesn’t like whipping cream anymore?  Who knew!

Edited April 18, 2021 by Calm

[Fair Dinkum]

On 4/17/2021 at 6:46 AM, Scott Lloyd said:

Longer than the last few years, in my observation. 

What a wild unsupported assertion. Until there is substantive proof or support— difficult or laborious as that may be to produce — your observation is at best an expression of opinion. 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Fair Dinkum

[Scott Lloyd]

On 4/19/2021 at 10:11 PM, Fair Dinkum said:

What a wild unsupported assertion. Until there is substantive proof or support— difficult or laborious as that may be to produce — your observation is at best an expression of opinion. 

No, it’s not wild, but I do give it as my own observation, nothing more. And I claim nothing very amazing or even remarkable about it — except to the extent it counters claims, express or implied, that the leaders of the Church of Jesus Christ have shifted their central focus to the worship of Jesus Christ where no such central focus was present before.