bluebell Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said: Yes...see my most recent post. An almost 300% increase in Jesus Christ themed addresses over last Octobers conference Also, what are the parameters for a talk being "Jesus Themed"? Is it the title, how many times His name is mentioned? I'm specifically struggling with the number for October's conference, because I looked through those talks and it's interesting that "Seek Christ in Every Thought" was not included in the total. Neither was "Highly Favored of the Lord" nor "Waiting on the Lord". "Eyes to See" (about Christ's enabling power) wasn't included either. And there were some others. How would those not count as talks centered on Christ? I didn't check the other conferences but I'm guessing the results would be similar. The count that you are getting, and the actual number of conference talks centered on Christ, don't seem to be matching up. If you are using the church's search function, that could be one reason. Their search function is notoriously bad. 2
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Oh Brother. 🙄 Now you've become pedantic. Read the article and acknowledge what has actually taken place since President Nelson's address. The use of the word Mormon as a descriptor of ones membership in the church has shriveled and died since that day when he declared that the use of Mormon was forboden. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng Your complaining strikes me as overwrought. The name Mormon has not been “relegated to the trash heap.” It is still contained in the title of the Book of Mormon. And it is the name of the great prophet who compiled centuries of records into the book that we now have that bears that title. Ironically, it was Mormon who recorded and preserved the directive from Jesus Christ that His Church be called by His name. I wonder what Mormon himself would have to say about all the murmuring today over a latter-day prophet’s admonition that we exercise greater care in following that directive. And let’s not obfuscate the fact that you did distort President Nelson’s message. I reiterate that it was not the use of “Mormon” in particular that he decried as a “victory for Satan,” but the use of ANY NAME OR WORD to supplant the name of Christ in the name of His Church. Edited April 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd 2
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 42 minutes ago, bluebell said: Can we compare it to the last conference that occurred on Easter weekend? The last time Easter coincided with conference was in 2018. In that year, as I listed above, there were 11 Jesus Christ themed addresses vs 21 this year. https://www.ldsliving.com/How-often-do-Easter-and-general-conference-coincide-A-look-at-Easter-conferences-past/s/94146
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 Just now, Fair Dinkum said: The last time Easter coincided with conference was in 2018. In that year, as I listed above, there were 11 Jesus Christ themed addresses vs 21 this year. https://www.ldsliving.com/How-often-do-Easter-and-general-conference-coincide-A-look-at-Easter-conferences-past/s/94146 Again, I wonder about the subjectivity of your criteria.
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 29 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Your complaining strikes me as overwrought. The name Mormon has not been “relegated to the trash heap.” It is still contained in the title of the Book of Mormon. And it is the name of the great prophet who compiled centuries of records into the book that we now have that bears that title. Ironically, it was Mormon who recorded and preserved the directive from Jesus Christ that His Church be called by His name. I wonder what Mormon himself would have to say about all the murmuring today over a latter-day prophet’s admonition that we exercise greater care in following that directive. And let’s not obfuscate the fact that you did distort President Nelson’s message. I reiterate that it was not the use of “Mormon” in particular that he decried as a “victory for Satan,” but the use of ANY NAME OR WORD to supplant the name of Christ in the name of His Church. Scott let me ask you two sincere questions. #1. Do YOU refer to yourself as a Mormon or as member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and #2. has how you describe your membership changed since President Nelson's address? Quote I reiterate that it was not the use of “Mormon” in particular that he decried as a “victory for Satan,” but the use of ANY NAME OR WORD to supplant the name of Christ in the name of His Church. I posted above the full quote, which you seem to like to edit, of Pres Nelson's comments and you will note that he also referred to Nicknames of the church of which referring to oneself as a Mormon used to be the most common.
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Again, I wonder about the subjectivity of your criteria. I guess you'd have to take that up with the managers of ChurchofJesusChrist.org who over see search criteria and decided which talks met that criteria.
bluebell Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: The last time Easter coincided with conference was in 2018. In that year, as I listed above, there were 11 Jesus Christ themed addresses vs 21 this year. https://www.ldsliving.com/How-often-do-Easter-and-general-conference-coincide-A-look-at-Easter-conferences-past/s/94146 Given that the number wasn't very accurate for October 2020, I'm doubting the number will be accurate for 2018 either. I think the search function is a little too wonky to depend on. Edited April 15, 2021 by bluebell 2
bluebell Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 Just now, Fair Dinkum said: I guess you'd have to take that up with the managers of ChurchofJesusChrist.org who over see search criteria and decided which talks met that criteria. It's all based on algorithms and isn't subjective. No one's really deciding anything, they program and then the program does its best. But anyone who's tried to use the search function knows that it is not good. 2
OGHoosier Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said: Oh Brother. 🙄 Now you've become pedantic. Read the article and acknowledge what has actually taken place since President Nelson's address. The use of the word Mormon as a descriptor of ones membership in the church has shriveled and died since that day when he declared that the use of Mormon was forboden. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2018/10/the-correct-name-of-the-church?lang=eng The appellation "pedantic" means nothing to me. My argument is that the decline of the use of the word "Mormon" after President Nelson's talk does not mean that the use of the word is itself a victory for Satan, which you directly used as a point of ridicule. Then again, I don't think it would it matter if it did.
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: And let’s not obfuscate the fact that you did distort President Nelson’s message. I reiterate that it was not the use of “Mormon” in particular that he decried as a “victory for Satan,” but the use of ANY NAME OR WORD to supplant the name of Christ in the name of His Church. And I would argue that he was referring to both the supplanting of the name of Jesus Christ when referring to the church and the use of the descriptor Mormon when referring to ones church identity as in I'm a Mormon vs I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I feel very confident given what has actually taken place in the real world since his address. The very fact that the church changed all references using the word Mormon from any official website, official entity, such as the choir and other organizations seems to support my premise. But if you could share an official use of Mormon in some official church descriptor, I would be more than happy to eat crow and admit that I was wrong. To my knowledge the word Mormon has been officially expunged from the churches vernacular with the exception of referring to the Book of Mormon or when referring to Moroni's father, Mormon, Mormon Trail or other similar proper nouns. Edited April 15, 2021 by Fair Dinkum
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 5 minutes ago, OGHoosier said: The appellation "pedantic" means nothing to me. LOL...you're being pedantic even with the use of the word pedantic...Oh my goodness, this is classic
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 24 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Scott let me ask you two sincere questions. #1. Do YOU refer to yourself as a Mormon or as member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and #2. has how you describe your membership changed since President Nelson's address? I posted above the full quote, which you seem to like to edit, of Pres Nelson's comments and you will note that he also referred to Nicknames of the church of which referring to oneself as a Mormon used to be the most common. Easy questions. 1. In accordance with President Nelson’s admonition, I refer to myself as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or, as a shortened form depending on context, a member of the Church or a Latter-day Saint. 2. President Nelson’s teaching was more specific than we had theretofore received, so I no longer use the name Mormon in reference to my membership. I don’t mind you posting the full quote, though I wonder how you, having done so, can continue to rationalize distorting the message about what President Nelson referred to as a “victory for Satan.” And I don’t know what you mean by my editing the quote. I don’t see that I have done so. You, on the other hand, have sought to alter the message by applying it to the use of “Mormon” when what was meant in context was removal of the name of Christ from the name of the Church. Use of ANY word or name in place of the name of Christ in the name of the Church is what President Nelson was speaking out against.
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: And I would argue that he was referring to both the supplanting of the name of Jesus Christ when referring to the church and the use of the descriptor Mormon when referring to ones church identity as in I'm a Mormon vs I'm a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I feel very confident given what has actually taken place in the real world since his address. The very fact that the church changed all references using the word Mormon from any official website, official entity, such as the choir and other organizations seems to support my premise. But if you could share an official use of Mormon in some official church descriptor, I would be more than happy to eat crow and admit that I was wrong. To my knowledge the word Mormon has been officially expunged from the churches vernacular with the exception of referring to the Book of Mormon or when referring to Moroni's father, Mormon, Mormon Trail or other similar proper nouns. I’ve already shared such an official use. It’s in the name Book of Mormon, and it still applies to the prophet and compiler of that book of scripture. So it hasn’t been thrown into the scrap heap, as you falsely asserted. And I still say it’s a distortion of President Nelson’s message to say he meant that using the word is in itself a “victory for Satan.” I know it’s a common trope among the Church’s critics to perpetuate that false assertion, but you yourself ought to cease bearing false witness. Why is it so urgent to you that the name be applied by the Church in other official usages? Edited April 15, 2021 by Scott Lloyd
OGHoosier Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: LOL...you're being pedantic even with the use of the word pedantic...Oh my goodness, this is classic What can I say, I enjoy the classics Careful though, I'm told some of those classical writers can be a bit pedantic. A greater crime against language or the mind can hardly be imagined. Edited April 15, 2021 by OGHoosier Edited to make it even snarkier 2
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: Easy questions. 1. In accordance with President Nelson’s admonition, I refer to myself as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, or, as a shortened form depending on context, a member of the Church or a Latter-day Saint. 2. President Nelson’s teaching was more specific than we had theretofore received, so I no longer use the name Mormon in reference to my membership. I don’t mind you posting the full quote, though I wonder how you, having done so, can continue to rationalize distorting the message about what President Nelson referred to as a “victory for Satan.” And I don’t know what you mean by my editing the quote. I don’t see that I have done so. You, on the other hand, have sought to alter the message by applying it to the use of “Mormon” when what was meant in context was removal of the name of Christ from the name of the Church. Use of ANY word or name in place of the name of Christ in the name of the Church is what President Nelson was speaking out against. Scott, I appreciate your candor and willingness to answer my 2 questions, thank you. We started down this rabbit hole when you chose to narrow the intent of Pres. Nelson's advice ( in my opinion) to reference only the supplanting of the name Jesus Christ in the name of the church. But didn't President Nelson also advise against the use of the nickname when referring to ourselves? If we exclude Jesus Christ when referencing our identity in the church to our membership in the church is that not also a victory for Satan? Is this not why the term Mormon has dwindled in use among the faithful? Were we not following the advice of Pres. Nelson? Help me out here, what other nickname could Pres. Nelson have been referring to if not Mormon? And why has the use of the word Mormon when referring to ones membership in the church become foreboden? Did everyone misunderstand Pres. Nelson's intent? Obviously you understood his intent and changed your behavior and it seem that everyone else got this message as well. If referring to oneself as a Mormon instead of referring to oneself as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a victory for Satan then why has everyone changed how they refer to themselves? Edited April 15, 2021 by Fair Dinkum
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’ve already shared such an official use. It’s in the name Book of Mormon, and it still applies to the prophet and compiler of that book of scripture. So it hasn’t been thrown into the scrap heap, as you falsely asserted. And I still say it’s a distortion of President Nelson’s message to say he meant that using the word is in itself a “victory for Satan.” I know it’s a common trope among the Church’s critics to perpetuate that false assertion, but you yourself ought to cease bearing false witness. Why is it so urgent to you that the name be applied by the Church in other official usages? Are we agreed that Pres. Nelson asked us to refrain from excluding the name of Jesus Christ when referencing the church? I'm going to assume that we both agree on this point. Is not referring to oneself as a "Mormon" referring to the church that we are member's of and thus supplanting the name of Jesus Christ? I'm going to also assume that we can agree to this point. If then using the descriptor nickname Mormon as a substitute for the full name of the church...then using it is excluding Jesus Christ, so please explain to me how excluding Jesus Christ in any reference to the church is not a victory for Satan? For what its worth you have totally highjacked my thread but that's ok Edited April 15, 2021 by Fair Dinkum
Scott Lloyd Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 13 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: Scott, I appreciate your candor and willingness to answer my 2 questions, thank you. We started down this rabbit hole when you chose to narrow the intent of Pres. Nelson's advice ( in my opinion) to reference only the supplanting of the name Jesus Christ in the name of the church. But didn't President Nelson also advise against the use of the nickname when referring to ourselves? If we exclude Jesus Christ when referencing our identity in the church to our membership in the church is that not also a victory for Satan? Is this not why the term Mormon has dwindled in use among the faithful? Were we not following the advice of Pres. Nelson? Help me out here, what other nickname could Pres. Nelson have been referring to if not Mormon? And why has the use of the word Mormon when referring to ones membership in the church become foreboden? Did everyone misunderstand Pres. Nelson's intent? Obviously you understood his intent and changed your behavior and it seem that everyone else got this message as well. If referring to oneself as a Mormon instead of referring to oneself as a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is not a victory for Satan then why has everyone changed how they refer to themselves? The fact that “Mormon” had become a common substitute for “Jesus Christ” is precisely the reason President Nelson referred to it specifically. There is nothing inherently evil about it; it is only objectionable when it is used as a supplanter for the name of Christ. In concept, that could apply to ANY other word or phrase that might be so used. It would be just as wrong to refer to it as the Church of Joseph Smith or the Josephite Church or to call members of the Church “Brighamites.” So again I say it is not honest to characterize President Nelson as saying use of “Mormon” is a “victory for Satan” when what he actually taught is that removing the name of Christ from the name of the Church is a “victory for Satan.” 2
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The fact that “Mormon” had become a common substitute for “Jesus Christ” is precisely the reason President Nelson referred to it specifically. There is nothing inherently evil about it; it is only objectionable when it is used as a supplanter for the name of Christ. In concept, that could apply to ANY other word or phrase that might be so used. It would be just as wrong to refer to it as the Church of Joseph Smith or the Josephite Church or to call members of the Church “Brighamites.” So again I say it is not honest to characterize President Nelson as saying use of “Mormon” is a “victory for Satan” when what he actually taught is that removing the name of Christ from the name of the Church is a “victory for Satan.” Quote There is nothing inherently evil about it; it is only objectionable when it is used as a supplanter for the name of Christ. We may be nearing agreement and It may be just semantics and for all I know we may have been in agreement from the very beginning of this detour. I agree that Pres. Nelson was referring to the supplanting of the name of Jesus Christ from the name of the church, that has never been in dispute, my point is, are we not also removing the name of Jesus Christ from the name of the church when we refer to ourselves as Mormons? is not the term Mormon a nickname or substitute for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and thus also supplanting the name of Jesus Christ? If it is a victory for Satan to refer to the name of the church as the Mormon Church is it not also a victory for Satan to refer to ones self as a Mormon, which is a direct reference to the church of which we are a member of and ergo also excluding Jesus Christ from the name of the church? Why is this so difficult to accept. Why would it be a victory for Satan in the first example and not carry through to the next? Are not both examples replacing the name of Christ for mention in referencing the church? I think we've beaten this horse to death, but can you not see from where I am coming? if I am wrong then why stop referring to ourselves as Mormons?
Fair Dinkum Posted April 15, 2021 Author Posted April 15, 2021 2 hours ago, bluebell said: Given that the number wasn't very accurate for October 2020, I'm doubting the number will be accurate for 2018 either. I think the search function is a little too wonky to depend on. I'm curious why you and "others" can't just accept it and say "Cool, the Church is focusing on Jesus Christ more, that's wonderful"? Particularly after I've demonstrated that, at least by the churches own search engine, my perception was correct. I'm wondering if this OP had been made by one of the board's elite posters there would have been this level of push back.
bluebell Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 8 minutes ago, Fair Dinkum said: I'm curious why you and "others" can't just accept it and say "Cool, the Church is focusing on Jesus Christ more, that's wonderful"? Particularly after I've demonstrated that, at least by the churches own search engine, my perception was correct. I'm wondering if this OP had been made by one of the board's elite posters there would have been this level of push back. You wonder why I can't just accept something that has so far been shown to be inaccurate and just say "cool"? Really? Well, I'm not asking for proof because I think there's anything wrong with this conference being more Christ-centered than other ones. I'm asking for proof because I actually want to know if it's true or not. I'm curious. Members are always being accused of allowing our desires to play too much of a role in determining or accepting what is true. I admit that I laughed out loud a little that a critic is annoyed that I won't just accept what he is saying is true (despite evidence that his proof isn't that accurate) because I should want it to be. 4
webbles Posted April 15, 2021 Posted April 15, 2021 5 hours ago, Fair Dinkum said: Ok I now have hard evidence that my impressions were correct in my assessment that this April conference was the most Christian, Jesus Christ, themed Conference in many years. Honestly I'm surprised by the push back. I would have thought that this would be a good thing. Jesus Christ themed talkes in: Apr 2021: 21 Oct 2020: 7 Apr 2020: 10 Oct 2019: 7 Apr 2019: 8 Oct 2018: 15 Apr 2018: 11 Oct 2017: 15 https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/topics/jesus-christ?lang=eng Oddly enough, I get different counts for the two Easter weekends when I go to that page. Apr 2021 has 22 and Apr 2018 has 16. Maybe someone in the web department saw this and added the "Jesus Christ" topic tag to more talks? The Ensign had a "Topic Index". Here's a few of the Easter weekends before 2018 and the number of talks under the "Jesus Christ" topic: Apr 2015: 17 Apr 2010: 12 1
Fair Dinkum Posted April 16, 2021 Author Posted April 16, 2021 15 hours ago, bluebell said: You wonder why I can't just accept something that has so far been shown to be inaccurate and just say "cool"? Really? Well, I'm not asking for proof because I think there's anything wrong with this conference being more Christ-centered than other ones. I'm asking for proof because I actually want to know if it's true or not. I'm curious. Members are always being accused of allowing our desires to play too much of a role in determining or accepting what is true. I admit that I laughed out loud a little that a critic is annoyed that I won't just accept what he is saying is true (despite evidence that his proof isn't that accurate) because I should want it to be. And yet when I provided that requested proof from the churches own website you even question that because why? It did not confirm your bias.
Fair Dinkum Posted April 16, 2021 Author Posted April 16, 2021 15 hours ago, webbles said: Oddly enough, I get different counts for the two Easter weekends when I go to that page. Apr 2021 has 22 and Apr 2018 has 16. Maybe someone in the web department saw this and added the "Jesus Christ" topic tag to more talks? The Ensign had a "Topic Index". Here's a few of the Easter weekends before 2018 and the number of talks under the "Jesus Christ" topic: Apr 2015: 17 Apr 2010: 12 Yup 22...I was in a rush and evidentially miscounted...
Fair Dinkum Posted April 16, 2021 Author Posted April 16, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, bluebell said: You wonder why I can't just accept something that has so far been shown to be inaccurate and just say "cool"? Really? Cool in that the church has increased its emphasis of Jesus Christ. And I reject your assertion that it has been shown to be inaccurate. When in fact it has been shown to be very much accurate. Do the search yourself and count. Yes its just that simple or provide proof of your assertion that TheChurchofJesusChrist.org 's own search engine is providing false search tabulations. Edit to add: I also reject your assertion that I'm now a critic just because I don't comport to your personal check list. Geeze do you even know how offensive and judgmental that is? Edited April 16, 2021 by Fair Dinkum
bluebell Posted April 16, 2021 Posted April 16, 2021 1 hour ago, Fair Dinkum said: Cool in that the church has increased its emphasis of Jesus Christ. And I reject your assertion that it has been shown to be inaccurate. When in fact it has been shown to be very much accurate. Do the search yourself and count. Yes its just that simple or provide proof of your assertion that TheChurchofJesusChrist.org 's own search engine is providing false search tabulations. Edit to add: I also reject your assertion that I'm now a critic just because I don't comport to your personal check list. Geeze do you even know how offensive and judgmental that is? I’m really confused. I did a search myself, and replied to one of your posts pointing out a number of Christ centered talks that weren’t counted by your topic search but were given in the conference. And I posted a list of them. I suggested the difference between the number that actually existed and the number the search was showing was probably due to the poor nature of the website’s search engines, which are notoriously bad. You never responded to that post but maybe that’s because you didn’t see it? I think you might be taking my posts in a spirit that they aren’t meant, or reading a negative tone into it that’s not there.
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