AtlanticMike Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 The priesthood is the power and authority of God, delegated to man on earth, to act in all things for the salvation of men. Where the Melchizedek priesthood is, there is the church and kingdom God on earth, there is the gospel of salvation, and where there is no Melchizedek Priesthood , there is no true church, and no power that will save men in the kingdom of God. The words above are very powerful. And my question today is, if millions of men holding this priesthood power are congregated in a small area compared to the surrounding area, should there be evidence of priesthood miracles in that specific area? I'm talking about Utah. Utah is 60% mormon and compared to east coast states that usually have a 1% mormon population, I would think more priesthood blessings are being administered in Utah than anywhere else. For example, should Utah children hospitals see an increase in miraculous healings because of Worthy Mormon fathers giving 60x the amount of blessings in Utah compared to a southern state? If priesthood power and the power to heal is real, should it be measurable using Utahs density of Mormon priesthood holders compared to everywhere else in the world?
CV75 Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 (edited) 36 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: The priesthood is the power and authority of God, delegated to man on earth, to act in all things for the salvation of men. Where the Melchizedek priesthood is, there is the church and kingdom God on earth, there is the gospel of salvation, and where there is no Melchizedek Priesthood , there is no true church, and no power that will save men in the kingdom of God. The words above are very powerful. And my question today is, if millions of men holding this priesthood power are congregated in a small area compared to the surrounding area, should there be evidence of priesthood miracles in that specific area? I'm talking about Utah. Utah is 60% mormon and compared to east coast states that usually have a 1% mormon population, I would think more priesthood blessings are being administered in Utah than anywhere else. For example, should Utah children hospitals see an increase in miraculous healings because of Worthy Mormon fathers giving 60x the amount of blessings in Utah compared to a southern state? If priesthood power and the power to heal is real, should it be measurable using Utahs density of Mormon priesthood holders compared to everywhere else in the world? More fundamentally, "where the priesthood is" would be an individual in possession and exercising the keys of the Melchizedek priesthood. How would you count and qualitatively measure the gross and the per-capita incidents of priesthood administration, the prayers of faith, and their corresponding results? Physical and temporal healing is not always contingent upon formal priesthood administration, so people without the Restored Gospel could certainly pray for and obtain healing, even for themselves (where the priesthood is not used to administer to oneself). I think the kind of saving you describe in the first paragraph is spiritual, on both sides of the veil, and does require formal priesthood administration as well as the common requirements for people of all faiths (faith, obedience, prayer, grace, etc.). The type of healing that ultimately saves, resurrection, requires priesthood administration under that key. Edited February 27, 2021 by CV75 2
Popular Post bluebell Posted February 27, 2021 Popular Post Posted February 27, 2021 Priesthood blessings depend on the will of God and the faith of those present. It could be that with the advances of modern medicine being able to produce healing from things that people didn't use to heal from on their own, God does not will instantly healings as much anymore. He doesn't need to to get the same results. I also wonder though if we as a people have largely lost the kind of faith necessary for miraculous healings and that's why we don't see it as often. Many of us are not willing to sacrifice to the same level as the early saints, for example (they gave up land, family, and were willing to risk death, many of us won't give up our favorite inappropriate tv shows or starbucks drinks), and I can't help but assume that that must have a negative impact on our relationship with Him--both in regards to our level of faith and also His level of intervention on our behalf. 5
CA Steve Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 2 hours ago, CV75 said: How would you count and qualitatively measure the gross and the per-capita incidents of priesthood administration, the prayers of faith, and their corresponding results? I would conduct a long term study of four similar large groups of individuals with the same illness and treatments. One group's names would be submitted to the temple prayer roll without their knowledge, one group's names would be submitted to the temple prayer roll with their knowledge, one group would be told their names were being submitted but were not, and a fourth control group who were unaware of the study at all.
Popular Post Amulek Posted February 27, 2021 Popular Post Posted February 27, 2021 3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: For example, should Utah children hospitals see an increase in miraculous healings because of Worthy Mormon fathers giving 60x the amount of blessings in Utah compared to a southern state? How do you measure all of the children who were blessed and then never needed to be admitted to the hospital in the first place? Maybe you could look at incidents of death / injury on a youth per capita basis to see if there are differences between regions, but I'm not sure that would get you to the differences being because of religion. There are so many other factors in play, it would be really hard to narrow it down. 5
LoudmouthMormon Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said: If priesthood power and the power to heal is real, should it be measurable using Utahs density of Mormon priesthood holders compared to everywhere else in the world? Dunno. But assuming for a second it was measurable, and clearly proven, Douglas Adams told us what the result would be back in the late '70's. Quote "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." "But," says Man, "the Priesthood Blessing is a dead giveaway, isn't it? It proves that You exist, and so therefore, by Your own arguments, You don't. QED." "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. "Oh, that was easy," says Man, and for an encore goes on to prove that black is white and gets himself killed on the next zebra crossing. 2
Emily Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 51 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said: "I refuse to prove that I exist," says God, "for proof denies faith, and without faith I am nothing." That argument, however humorous, is based on an invalid premise, LDS doctrine does not teach that "God without faith is nothing." Indeed, in LDS doctrine, faith is an important road to knowledge, but knowledge is the ultimate goal. Knowing, without a doubt, that God exists will have no effect on His existence. It is also a false assumption that the efficacy of priesthood blessings can only be measured by physical healing. An oft-circulated Leslie Gould quote says it well: 'Sometimes God calms the storm, but sometimes God lets the storm rage and calms His child.' Which is not to say that priesthood blessing benefits couldn't be measured, I'm sure they could. But it might be tough to seperate the success rate of priesthood blessings from the effect of church teachings overall*. You'd have a devil of a time setting efficacy criteria and finding a decent control group. ------------- *Utahn's skew healthier than the national average, the population is more upwardly mobile (more wealth means better healthcare), and supportive and caring social structures, (families, Relief Society, Ministering programs) have a known positive effect on health recovery rates. An iteresting article, somewhat related, that was published last year: "Why is Utah not getting hit as hard as other places? New coronavirus data offers some clues." https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/04/02/what-we-can-learn-by/ 2
Popular Post Calm Posted February 27, 2021 Popular Post Posted February 27, 2021 Emily, you need to post 6 posts quickly so I can satisfy my need to give you rep points. 5
CV75 Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 5 hours ago, CA Steve said: I would conduct a long term study of four similar large groups of individuals with the same illness and treatments. One group's names would be submitted to the temple prayer roll without their knowledge, one group's names would be submitted to the temple prayer roll with their knowledge, one group would be told their names were being submitted but were not, and a fourth control group who were unaware of the study at all. Let us know how that works out (the second half of "How would you..." -- the execution)!
CV75 Posted February 27, 2021 Posted February 27, 2021 I get the sense from the comments that when the Lord delegates authority, He expects us (both servants and recipients) to use it with faith and gratitude and not find excuses for why it isn't really needed. It is part of how things get done in a Zion culture and His kingdom for His work and glory.
AtlanticMike Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, CV75 said: I get the sense from the comments that when the Lord delegates authority, He expects us (both servants and recipients) to use it with faith and gratitude and not find excuses for why it isn't really needed. It is part of how things get done in a Zion culture and His kingdom for His work and glory Well, that's why I'm asking the question. Priesthood POWER is the same power God uses to form universes and planets. It's the same power that he is going to use to disrupt our daily lives with storms, earthquakes and possibly cities sinking into the ocean at his return. We believe we're given access to that same power and have the ability to use it to heal people who are sick or injured. If so, I'm asking, shouldn't we be able to point to Utah, the only place on earth that has 100s of thousands of men walking around with this power, and say, Utah is different than any other place on earth. I'm seriously asking this! I just started thinking about this. Shouldn't doctors and nurses see a huge difference in miraculous healings in Utah compared to other states. If someone is staying in a hospital and they're healed from a blessing, that person then at some point gets up and leaves the hospital. So, if more priesthood blessings are being given in Utah because there are more mormon men, shouldn't we actually be able to see that, with our eyes, on video, or on paper? Shouldn't doctors and nurses be talking about the miracles that are taking place in Utah compared to everywhere else? Edited February 28, 2021 by AtlanticMike
CV75 Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 44 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: So, if more priesthood blessings are being given in Utah because there are more mormon men, shouldn't we actually be able to see that, with our eyes, on video, or on paper? Shouldn't doctors and nurses be talking about the miracles that are taking place in Utah compared to everywhere else? Not necessarily, because as you say, Utah is different than any other place on earth and where different things are given different things are required -- that goes for any other place on earth as well and how someone from any other place will perceive what is going on! God does not heal individuals through priesthood blessings because of their access to a mechanical administration, but because of the long-term spiritual needs of the individual recipient in connection with his access to that mechanical administration. Individual needs, spiritual and temporal, are in part created by the spiritual and temporal environments in which they live, whether that be on the global, national, state/province, community or home level. So if you have faith in the priesthood, you will use it or turn to it when in need, and God will bless you according to His will. Edited February 28, 2021 by CV75 2
Emily Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 19 hours ago, Calm said: Emily, you need to post 6 posts quickly so I can satisfy my need to give you rep points. I thought I'd made at least six posts by now. 🧩 Unless it's six posts within a certain period of time. They should give extra credit for excessively long posts. Then I'd have already hit the mark. 😁
Calm Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 16 minutes ago, Emily said: I thought I'd made at least six posts by now. 🧩 Unless it's six posts within a certain period of time. They should give extra credit for excessively long posts. Then I'd have already hit the mark. 😁 You need a total of 25...my eyes messed up and turned 18 into 19, it should have been 7, now 6 more. 1
LoudmouthMormon Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 21 hours ago, Emily said: That argument, however humorous, is based on an invalid premise Oh, I totally agree. But do you disagree with my actual claim? 22 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said: On 2/27/2021 at 8:02 AM, AtlanticMike said: If priesthood power and the power to heal is real, should it be measurable using Utahs density of Mormon priesthood holders compared to everywhere else in the world? Dunno. But assuming for a second it was measurable, and clearly proven, Douglas Adams told us what the result would be back in the late '70's. (My claim isn't about the argument. My claim is that even if there's a measurable/provable real impact, it wouldn't make any difference to people. Critics would still be unpersuaded and critical.) Edited February 28, 2021 by LoudmouthMormon
2BizE Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 I do not believe there is any empirical data in priesthood blessings, but if there were, it would not show anything other than coincidence. I’m sure spiritual healings and blessings from other religions would be statistically the same as non-religion groups.
AtlanticMike Posted February 28, 2021 Author Posted February 28, 2021 1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said: My claim is that even if there's a measurable/provable real impact, it wouldn't make any difference to people. Critics would still be unpersuaded and critical.) I doubt that. Real evidence like children miraculously walking out of hospitals on a scale not seen anywhere else would persuade any loving parent, critics also, to search for their closest priesthood holder and beg for a blessing, and probably multiple blessings. Let me ask you, do you think the priesthood is an actual power? A real honest to goodness power that's inside a worthy priesthood holder?
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 On 2/27/2021 at 7:02 AM, AtlanticMike said: For example, should Utah children hospitals see an increase in miraculous healings because of Worthy Mormon fathers giving 60x the amount of blessings in Utah compared to a southern state? If priesthood power and the power to heal is real, should it be measurable using Utahs density of Mormon priesthood holders compared to everywhere else in the world? Think this through. The kid is in the hospital getting medical care. Dad gives a blessing. Kid gets well. Who gets the credit, dad or the hospital?? Obviously the hospital! Modern medicine works miracles. But you know that if the miracle happens in the hospital it will be attributed to Medicine and not to God or dad 3
mfbukowski Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: I doubt that. Real evidence like children miraculously walking out of hospitals on a scale not seen anywhere else would persuade any loving parent, critics also, to search for their closest priesthood holder and beg for a blessing, and probably multiple blessings. Let me ask you, do you think the priesthood is an actual power? A real honest to goodness power that's inside a worthy priesthood holder? I know it is from experience. It's God working through ordinary folks. I have seen it. 3
Emily Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 3 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said: My claim isn't about the argument. My claim is that even if there's a measurable/provable real impact, it wouldn't make any difference to people. Critics would still be critical. I missed the point you were making. I just thought you were being funny. It is funny, but does any religion actually teach that God without faith is nothing? Anyway to answer your question, I agree with your point. If you could demonstrate a higher incident of "miraculous healing" going on in Utah hospitals, it would simply be attributed to the factors already named: Utah residents on average are wealthier, better educated, healthier, younger, etc. I don't think the OP (Atlantic Mike) was necessarily trying to find physical evidence to convince the unfaithful though, he seems to just be wondering if the effects of priesthood power could be measured. Possibly it could, but there are a lot of effects that you theoretically could measure, but can't within the required parameters of the scientific method. At best, you could probably do a clinical study that would suggest that something is influencing positive outcomes in Utah hospitals. (Which is the gist of the Coronavirus article from last year that I posted in my previous post.) And as seen in that article, researchers aren't likely to include "Priesthood Blessings" in the list of reasons why there is a difference. The members who got blessings when they came down with the virus, however, would likely have that factor at the top of their list. 1
CV75 Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 35 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said: I doubt that. Real evidence like children miraculously walking out of hospitals on a scale not seen anywhere else would persuade any loving parent, critics also, to search for their closest priesthood holder and beg for a blessing, and probably multiple blessings. Let me ask you, do you think the priesthood is an actual power? A real honest to goodness power that's inside a worthy priesthood holder? I think Matthew 6 (and the Parable of the Sower in Matthew 13) is most instructive on this point. What was the "real evidence" for those in Matthew 6:66? 1
Emily Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 2 hours ago, Calm said: You need a total of 25...my eyes messed up and turned 18 into 19, it should have been 7, now 6 more. My husband just pointed out that on the PC Browser version of this message board you can immediately see how many posts someone has made. On the Android version, you can't see "number of posts" unless you click through to the person's profile. So now I know how to count posts, I have a goal! (This is +1) He told me to go post stuff in the social board. So I guess I've got to go look for that...
Calm Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 2 minutes ago, Emily said: He told me to go post stuff in the social board. So I guess I've got to go look for that... Is he a poster then? Or just a reader? (To know this is the advice we give newbies who want to start threads or edit)
InCognitus Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 36 minutes ago, Calm said: Is he a poster then? Or just a reader? (To know this is the advice we give newbies who want to start threads or edit) Her husband is me. Emily is my wife I've been giving her likes long before she ever started posting on this board. 4
Calm Posted February 28, 2021 Posted February 28, 2021 (edited) 47 minutes ago, InCognitus said: Her husband is me. Emily is my wife I've been giving her likes long before she ever started posting on this board. That explains a lot*** as I like all of your posts too. ***Her posts felt very ‘at home’ with the board. No adjustment necessary. Edited February 28, 2021 by Calm
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