Priesthood blessings and evidence

[JustAnAustralian]

5 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

But, my point is everyone I know who's in their 60s or 70s have always believed that the BOM is a book of history.

He doesn't say it's not a book of history, he says it's not a textbook of history.

The book itself claims to be a Nephite abridgement+commentary of other abridgements of multiple records created over the course of nearly 3000 years by a variety of mostly Nephite record keepers (except for the original Jaredite record keepers, who were also one sided).

A textbook shouldn't be one sided, the Book of Mormon is.

[Scott Lloyd]

8 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Reading the quote below makes it seem to me that alot of "sins" can diminish your priesthood power, not just pornagraphy. I can't remember the book, but years ago I read that the priesthood is given all at once, meaning an 18 year old has just as much priesthood as the prophet. But, because of unrepentant sin, the amount of priesthood power we wield becomes smaller and smaller, eventually becoming nothing at all, like the statement below says.

Again, I don’t see that this quote proves what you want it to prove. 
 

Christ’s ancient apostles were imperfect vessels, yet they were able to do many mighty miracles in His name. The limiting factor in their ability to perform these sacred acts seems to have been their lack of faith, not imperfection in their personal righteousness. 

[AtlanticMike]

4 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Again, I don’t see that this quote proves what you want it to prove. 
 

Christ’s ancient apostles were imperfect vessels, yet they were able to do many mighty miracles in His name. The limiting factor in their ability to perform these sacred acts seems to have been their lack of faith, not imperfection in their personal righteousness. 

I've never said you have to be perfect to give a blessing. What I'm saying is the more you sin, the less youre intune with the will of God. The more you sin, the harder it is to find the correct words to say while giving a blessing. If you had sex with a hooker then snorted 2 lines of cocaine off of her and then tried to give a blessing the next day, there's a good chance your confidence in giving a blessing that's going to be meaningful will be diminished. Even if it's a "minor" sin, let's say a 19 young man was at the beach and was staring at all the girls in skimpy bathing suits and thinking about having sex with the one he found most attractive. Then, on his way home he got a call from one of his friends asking if he could give a blessing to a sick person. There's a good chance that the young man will be thinking about how he just spent an hour staring about butts and boobies for the past hour instead of thinking about what he should say in the blessing. Sin blocks your ability to be intune with god. Sin decreases your confidence level and that usually means you'll have a hard time searching for the correct words to say in a blessing. That's why featherstone says the priesthood has to have a pure conduit to operate. The more sin you commit, the less confident you are in your ability to give a meaningful blessing. 

    I've actually seen someone withdraw from a prayer circle  because of harsh feelings toward someone else in the circle. He left because he didnt want to be thinking about how much he hated the guy he was praying with while the prayer was taking place. He walked completely out the room. I see a blessing the same way. Sin or bad thoughts can completely alter what your saying. 

     Yes, christ apostles were able to do many mighty miracles, probably when they were intune with what the lord wanted them to do. But that doesn't mean they were perfect or that they didn't have to repent of sin. There's probably plenty of times they didn't feel worthy and thought their influence was diminished because of sin. The repented and kept going. 

   Pres. Kimball thought he could "develop" priesthood power as he perfected his life. To me that means he thought your priesthood power could become more mature and become more elaborate over time. You dont see priesthood power becoming more powerful over time if we're intune with the will of God?

[AtlanticMike]

7 hours ago, JustAnAustralian said:

He doesn't say it's not a book of history, he says it's not a textbook of history.

The book itself claims to be a Nephite abridgement+commentary of other abridgements of multiple records created over the course of nearly 3000 years by a variety of mostly Nephite record keepers (except for the original Jaredite record keepers, who were also one sided).

A textbook shouldn't be one sided, the Book of Mormon is.

So your saying the BOM is a book of history,  just not a text book of history? 

    Can I use it today to determine who's a descendant of the lamanites? Like my Samoan friends, they think they're lamanites. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I've never said you have to be perfect to give a blessing. What I'm saying is the more you sin, the less youre intune with the will of God. The more you sin, the harder it is to find the correct words to say while giving a blessing. If you had sex with a hooker then snorted 2 lines of cocaine off of her and then tried to give a blessing the next day, there's a good chance your confidence in giving a blessing that's going to be meaningful will be diminished. Even if it's a "minor" sin, let's say a 19 young man was at the beach and was staring at all the girls in skimpy bathing suits and thinking about having sex with the one he found most attractive. Then, on his way home he got a call from one of his friends asking if he could give a blessing to a sick person. There's a good chance that the young man will be thinking about how he just spent an hour staring about butts and boobies for the past hour instead of thinking about what he should say in the blessing. Sin blocks your ability to be intune with god. Sin decreases your confidence level and that usually means you'll have a hard time searching for the correct words to say in a blessing. That's why featherstone says the priesthood has to have a pure conduit to operate. The more sin you commit, the less confident you are in your ability to give a meaningful blessing. 

    I've actually seen someone withdraw from a prayer circle  because of harsh feelings toward someone else in the circle. He left because he didnt want to be thinking about how much he hated the guy he was praying with while the prayer was taking place. He walked completely out the room. I see a blessing the same way. Sin or bad thoughts can completely alter what your saying. 

     Yes, christ apostles were able to do many mighty miracles, probably when they were intune with what the lord wanted them to do. But that doesn't mean they were perfect or that they didn't have to repent of sin. There's probably plenty of times they didn't feel worthy and thought their influence was diminished because of sin. The repented and kept going. 

   Pres. Kimball thought he could "develop" priesthood power as he perfected his life. To me that means he thought your priesthood power could become more mature and become more elaborate over time. You dont see priesthood power becoming more powerful over time if we're intune with the will of God?

Consorting with prostitutes, indulging in drug abuse and committing adultery in one’s heart would by definition render a man unworthy to hold the priesthood.

But you seem determined to put worthiness on a continuum, saying in effect that the closer a man comes to perfection in his personal behavior the more effective his exercise of priesthood authority. I question whether that is consistent with the teachings of the Church or what we all “have been taught since birth.” I believe, rather, that the Lord will honor a man’s earnest and faith-filled effort to exercise priesthood authority once that man has been found worthy, regardless of the man’s inherent frailties and limitations. 
 

Regarding confidence in finding the right words to say, I recall President Dallin H. Oaks’s teaching that although ideally the words will be in tune with the mind of God, the essential thing is the performance of the ordinance itself, not so much the words that are spoken in the administration of the priesthood blessing. That is to say, the earnest performance of the ordinance by a worthy priesthood holder is sufficient for the Lord to work His will, notwithstanding any lack of eloquence in the words that are spoken by the man administering the blessing. 
 

Consider this: If I am sick or afflicted and desire a priesthood blessing, should I shop around and try to find some General Authority or some man I regard as close to perfection in his spiritual development to perform the blessing, or can I be content with the earnest effort of my humble elders quorum president or ministering brother or member of my immediate family?

Added later: Here is a link to that talk by President Oaks that I alluded to above: 

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/general-conference/2010/04/healing-the-sick?lang=eng

Do you have a link to support your assertion that President Kimball “thought he could ‘develop’ priesthood power as he perfected his life’?

 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, AtlanticMike said:

So your saying the BOM is a book of history,  just not a text book of history? 

    Can I use it today to determine who's a descendant of the lamanites? Like my Samoan friends, they think they're lamanites. 

Who has denied they are Lamanites (or, as I prefer to say it, descendants of Lehi)?

[AtlanticMike]

42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Do you have a link to support your assertion that President Kimball “thought he could ‘develop’ priesthood power as he perfected his life’?

Teachings of the presidents of the church. By Spencer w Kimball. 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Teachings of the presidents of the church. By Spencer w Kimball. 

Thanks. 

[AtlanticMike]

42 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Who has denied they are Lamanites (or, as I prefer to say it, descendants of Lehi)?

I don't know, has anyone denied they're lamanites? Growing up my Samoan friends new for a fact they were lamanites. They hated talking about the skin color change thing. Most Samoans I know dont believe their skin color used to be white, but they're some who still believe that.

[AtlanticMike]

Just now, Scott Lloyd said:

Thanks. 

I'll tell my mom you said thanks, she sent that to me😁

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'll tell my mom you said thanks, she sent that to me😁

Is your mom monitoring your participation on this board? 

[Scott Lloyd]

12 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I don't know, has anyone denied they're lamanites? Growing up my Samoan friends new for a fact they were lamanites. They hated talking about the skin color change thing. Most Samoans I know dont believe their skin color used to be white, but they're some who still believe that.

When you said, “They think they are Lamanites,” it seemed to me to imply that this is in doubt. 

[AtlanticMike]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Thanks. 

So that's one example that to me sounds like he believes you can develop your priesthood power through perfecting your life. Wouldn't that mean you can use it more effectively once you know how it works. He talks about being glad god put limitations on priesthood power while we're here on earth because he would probably be healing people who shouldn't be healed if he had unlimited access to priesthood power. There are 3 or 4 other books that talk about the same thing, basically honing your priesthood power to work more effectively. Just cant get to the books right now. 

    To me it sounds you believe priesthood power is a one size fits all or no one has more than someone else, am I understanding that correctly? Because I've never seen it that way. Also, you asked about shopping around for priesthood blessings, a lot of people do that. Years ago my wife waited 2 days to get a blessing from her dad because he is the most humble, trustworthy man she has ever known. 

[AtlanticMike]

6 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Is your mom monitoring your participation on this board? 

You know what, I dont know who is monitoring my participation on this board anymore🤣. She could be, but I called her and told her where to look this time. I knew what book it was in, I just didn't know the page, she found that. I think one of the other books that talks about developing priesthood power is gospel Through the Ages by Milton R Hunter but that book is also at her house so I can't look at it to the weekend.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

So that's one example that to me sounds like he believes you can develop your priesthood power through perfecting your life. Wouldn't that mean you can use it more effectively once you know how it works. He talks about being glad god put limitations on priesthood power while we're here on earth because he would probably be healing people who shouldn't be healed if he had unlimited access to priesthood power. There are 3 or 4 other books that talk about the same thing, basically honing your priesthood power to work more effectively. Just cant get to the books right now. 

    To me it sounds you believe priesthood power is a one size fits all or no one has more than someone else, am I understanding that correctly? Because I've never seen it that way. Also, you asked about shopping around for priesthood blessings, a lot of people do that. Years ago my wife waited 2 days to get a blessing from her dad because he is the most humble, trustworthy man she has ever known. 

Alas, President Kimball isn’t here to ask what he meant by “perfect my life.” It could be that he had in mind developing his faith. 
 

I don’t think it’s a fair or accurate characterization  of my position to say I believe priesthood power is “a one size fits all.” My words are written in my above posts and are easily accessible for reference. I’ve said I believe the Lord in His mercy will honor the faith-filled acts of a worthy and earnest priesthood holder regardless of the man’s inherent weaknesses. 
 

It’s understandable and acceptable for one to desire a blessing from a priesthood holder with whom one feels a particular affinity or bond. But that doesn’t bind me to believe that a priesthood blessing would be any the more efficacious if it came from a prominent Church leader than it would be if it were given by my own father. 

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

But you seem determined to put worthiness on a continuum, saying in effect that the closer a man comes to perfection in his personal behavior the more effective his exercise of priesthood authority. I question whether that is consistent with the teachings of the Church or what we all “have been taught since birth.” I believe, rather, that the Lord will honor a man’s earnest and faith-filled effort to exercise priesthood authority once that man has been found worthy, regardless of the man’s inherent frailties and limitations. 

I'm asking you sincerely, then what does this paragraph mean. It's from a talk called personal worthiness to exercise the priesthood by pres. Hinckley. To me he's not just talking about serious sins like adultry. He says any degree of unrighteousness, the heavens withdraw and your authority to use the priesthood is diminished. 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

20 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

You know what, I dont know who is monitoring my participation on this board anymore🤣. She could be, but I called her and told her where to look this time. I knew what book it was in, I just didn't know the page, she found that. I think one of the other books that talks about developing priesthood power is gospel Through the Ages by Milton R Hunter but that book is also at her house so I can't look at it to the weekend.

Might I recommend the “Gospel Library” app for mobile devices or the corresponding section of the Church website? Your quote from President Kimball could have been found there, as the “Teachings of Presidents of the Church” series is among the myriad sources compiled therein.  
 

An advantage of the “Gospel Library” app is one can feel confident its content is authoritative because it has gone through the quality control of the Church’s correlation process, unlike some sources that might not have gone through such scrutiny or might have been superseded by newer written material. 
 

Furthermore, it is fully digital, so its content can easily be copied and pasted or linked to so it can be read or viewed in context. 

[AtlanticMike]

3 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Might I recommend the “Gospel Library” app for mobile devices or the corresponding section of the Church website? Your quote from President Kimball could have been found there, as the “Teachings of Presidents of the Church” series is among the myriad sources compiled therein.  
 

An advantage of the “Gospel Library” app is one can feel confident its content is authoritative because it has gone through the quality control of the Church’s correlation process, unlike some sources that might not have gone through such scrutiny or might have been superseded by newer written material. 
 

Furthermore, it is fully digital, so its content can easily be copied and pasted or linked to so it can be read or viewed in context. 

Thank you, I'm old school Scott, but I'm getting there. 

[Scott Lloyd]

22 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm asking you sincerely, then what does this paragraph mean. It's from a talk called personal worthiness to exercise the priesthood by pres. Hinckley. To me he's not just talking about serious sins like adultry. He says any degree of unrighteousness, the heavens withdraw and your authority to use the priesthood is diminished. 

 

He cites Doctrine and Covenants 121, one of my favorite scriptural passages, which certainly speaks for itself. It refers to unrighteous dominion, a propensity of some by virtue of the priesthood to try to control the thoughts and acts of others in an unkind or abusive or tyrannical fashion (“in any degree of unrighteousness”). Such an attitude would definitely render a man unworthy to hold the priesthood and, if we are to take the passage at its word, unable to exercise priesthood power, because  “the heavens withdraw themselves.” 

Edited March 3, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Thank you, I'm old school Scott, but I'm getting there. 

I think you sell yourself short. If you can rummage through old books, and if you can participate on an internet message board, you can readily learn to navigate a digital library. 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I believe, rather, that the Lord will honor a man’s earnest and faith-filled effort to exercise priesthood authority once that man has been found worthy, regardless of the man’s inherent frailties and limitations. 

I think that's how we see it differently. To me, just because someone is found worthy, I'm guessing you mean by the bishop through an interview, doesn't mean that man is worthy till the next interview. Sorry, last time I'm going to ask you this, how is the power of the priesthood supposed to work through a dirty, unworthy vessel, an unrepentant sinner? Am I reading the paragraph below wrong?

[Scott Lloyd]

38 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I think that's how we see it differently. To me, just because someone is found worthy, I'm guessing you mean by the bishop through an interview, doesn't mean that man is worthy till the next interview. Sorry, last time I'm going to ask you this, how is the power of the priesthood supposed to work through a dirty, unworthy vessel, an unrepentant sinner? Am I reading the paragraph below wrong?

By “found worthy,” I have in mind by the Lord Himself, not just by a bishop or stake president. It’s possible to deceive a bishop, but the Lord can’t be deceived. 
 

I think I’ve been very clear here in saying that certain grave sins can render a man ineligible to hold or exercise priesthood authority, but not necessarily the lesser transgressions or infractions or omissions or frailties of human nature to which we all are subject from day to day, especially where one is making earnest effort to repent and improve daily. 

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by Scott Lloyd

[AtlanticMike]

On 2/28/2021 at 1:36 PM, 2BizE said:

I do not believe there is any empirical data in priesthood blessings, but if there were, it would not show anything other than coincidence.  I’m sure spiritual healings and blessings from other religions would be statistically the same as non-religion groups.

So is there any spiritual healing going on at all, are people seeing something that's not there? 

Edited March 2, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Sorry, last time I'm going to ask you this, how is the power of the priesthood supposed to work through a dirty, unworthy vessel, an unrepentant sinner? Am I reading the paragraph below wrong?

IF you believe in Jesus Christ  You know that we all are sinners

 Their question is is ANYBODY worthy of such power?

 That is the Lord's problem not yours.

 If the Lord thinks you need a blessing I believe anyone could do it without the priesthood even. Sister Snow brought her ox back to life.

 

Edited March 2, 2021 by mfbukowski

[Emily]

On 3/2/2021 at 10:40 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Sorry, last time I'm going to ask you this, how is the power of the priesthood supposed to work through a dirty, unworthy vessel, an unrepentant sinner?

Well the Catholics decided unrepentant priests could perform ordinances, and ended up with the reformation and Protestants.

I don't know why there is all this straw picking. There is a vast difference between an unrepentant sinner and a repentant one.

The priesthood power is gone when a man violates his covenants and hasn't gone through the necessary steps for repentance. Sometimes the only step needed is a slap to the head and getting his mind back on track, sometimes it requires excommunication. I don't really understand why this is even a discussion.