The different personalities found inside Mormonism

[cacheman]

13 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

 In any case, you may want to watch out for the impact that comments such as the one above might have on your carefully crafted persona.

[Ahab]

8 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

One thing I've never understood about the majority of mormons is when somebody leaves the church there's this phrase about exmormons.  "they leave the church but cant leave it alone" . That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why? Because as mormons we dont leave anyone alone!! How many religions do you know that knock on millions upon millions of doors every year. Me, I only know of two, us and the jws. What about the motto, every member a missionary? My point being, once someone leaves, there's a really good chance that a large proportion of exmormons are going to turn their focus on trying to reach out to mormons to share with them the new information they have found. It's part if who they are because that's what they've been taught from birth. It's a problem for the church in my opinion. Mormons/exmormons are willing to go the extra mile to prove they're correct in what they believe compared to other religions. I dont think once your an exmormon that willingness to go the extra mile turns off, it's just redirected to teaching mormons that Mormonism is wrong. I could be wrong though. 

 

If the phrase was "they leave the church but cant leave people who are not members of it alone" then they would be doing the same thing they once did as members of the Church, but that isn't what we are talking about when we say that about them, is it.

[Ahab]

double post.  and it wasn't my fault.  Woohoo !!!  Must be Double Points For Double Posts Monday!

Edited February 22, 2021 by Ahab

[Stargazer]

19 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is new to me. It kind of bothers me though, it almost sounds like withdrawal is coming from the individual themselves such as someone resigning. It feels like the church doesn't want to look as if they excommunicate people. I guess it could come across as the church withdrew their membership, but sort of seems deceiving and doesn't differentiate. 

Actually, "excommunication" is a rather negative term when compared to "withdrawal of membership". It's a much softer term.

When members leave of their own accord, it is called "resignation".

[Stargazer]

8 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

One thing I've never understood about the majority of mormons is when somebody leaves the church there's this phrase about exmormons.  "they leave the church but cant leave it alone" . That makes absolutely no sense to me. Why? Because as mormons we dont leave anyone alone!! How many religions do you know that knock on millions upon millions of doors every year. Me, I only know of two, us and the jws. What about the motto, every member a missionary? My point being, once someone leaves, there's a really good chance that a large proportion of exmormons are going to turn their focus on trying to reach out to mormons to share with them the new information they have found. It's part if who they are because that's what they've been taught from birth. It's a problem for the church in my opinion. Mormons/exmormons are willing to go the extra mile to prove they're correct in what they believe compared to other religions. I dont think once your an exmormon that willingness to go the extra mile turns off, it's just redirected to teaching mormons that Mormonism is wrong. I could be wrong though. 

 

Yes, there are those ex-members who become anti-missionaries, and so to speak, have left the church but can't leave it alone.  They are a very tiny minority, though to some extent they make their tiny numbers seem larger mainly by being louder. These anti-missionaries are discussed here at MDDB quite frequently, mainly because it's the relevant topic. But I have been a member for about 55 years. I've been a member of wards and branches in four countries and four US states.  Maybe I don't get out much, but in all this time I have personally never, ever, ran into or heard of anyone who was a former member who was out serving an anti-mission trying to get this "new information" into the hands of whom they imagine to be the deluded sheep of the LDS church. Maybe that's anecdotal, but I'm virtually certain that most people who leave the church do so quite quietly, and at most, confide their "new information" to a very few friends and relatives. Once or twice. And then they drop it.

Perhaps you are thinking ahead, and suppose that there will soon be a groundswell of ex-member anti-missionaries tearing at the faithful to try to get them to fall away, too. In German there is a phrase for it: Wenn schon, denn schon.  If so, then so be it.  But in the meantime, I think you're comparing mountains to molehills, and possibly due to forced perspective, think they are the same size.

I do expect something to happen along those lines, eventually. But not yet. I believe the prophecy I've read that says that the time will come when even the very elect will be deceived. If that's going to happen, so will the other, and when they do, they do. I just pray I won't find myself among the deceived.

As to members and missionaries pestering millions of people, members and nonmembers alike, I would like to point out certain directives which Christ gave, concerning:

• Ministering work, including
  • going out to "search for the one who has strayed from the flock", and
  • visiting "the fatherless and widows in their affliction"
  • and this gem: "Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."
• Missionary work, meaning The Great Commission, which is, "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."

You cannot do any of this without pestering people, and to do these things you cannot leave them alone. 

Now, you presumably have a testimony of Jesus Christ as the Savior. So presumably you don't consider the efforts of ministering brothers and sisters and missionaries to do what Christ expects them to do something worthy of criticism. 

[AtlanticMike]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

You cannot do any of this without pestering people, and to do these things you cannot leave them alone. 

Now, you presumably have a testimony of Jesus Christ as the Savior. So presumably you don't consider the efforts of ministering brothers and sisters and missionaries to do what Christ expects them to do something worthy of criticism. 

To me, our missionary program doesn't make since anymore. I dont think knocking on doors is going to do any good in the future. So many more productive ways to spread the gospel. It's been the same tactic for over a 100 years, time to update it.

[Islander]

On 2/17/2021 at 10:09 AM, Duncan said:

Something that has arisen that is totally shocking to me is when people have, I don't know the current name, Courts of Love, Membership review meetings etc. but these people broadcast it and tell everyone when and where and what the outcome was. Like, aren't you embarrassed? Is there no embarrassment anymore? I wouldn't want my sins and misdeed being broadcast all over the place. Telling everyone I was exed for these reasons would be  the opposite of humiliating, I can't understand that mindset. If it were me, I would tell no one it was happening and maybe share to some close friends the outcome, but I certainly wouldn't want total strangers being privy to the proceedings. Maybe for some that is the only way they get 15 minutes of fame and then a week later it's all but forgotten

It may come as a shock to you, but membership in the Church does not equal true conversion or discipleship. Regardless of calling, position or length of membership. There are many that are like the parasitic vine in John 15. They look like they are the genuine item, apparently attached to the vine, lush and green from a distance, but on closer observation there are no grapes; no real fruit. And they remain so until the Lord of the vineyard comes, cuts them off the vine and throw them into the fire.

And why do they publish the struggles, sins and pain of others? Because the love of Christ is not in their hearts. And like the scripture says, if we have not the love of Christ in our hearts (unfortunately translated charity) we are nothing. No matter what else we think we are or have, without love we are nothing.   

And those that leave and malign the Church and its doctrine were never truly converted, most likely. "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19

[Tacenda]

44 minutes ago, Islander said:

It may come as a shock to you, but membership in the Church does not equal true conversion or discipleship. Regardless of calling, position or length of membership. There are many that are like the parasitic vine in John 15. They look like they are the genuine item, apparently attached to the vine, lush and green from a distance, but on closer observation there are no grapes; no real fruit. And they remain so until the Lord of the vineyard comes, cuts them off the vine and throw them into the fire.

And why do they publish the struggles, sins and pain of others? Because the love of Christ is not in their hearts. And like the scripture says, if we have not the love of Christ in our hearts (unfortunately translated charity) we are nothing. No matter what else we think we are or have, without love we are nothing.   

And those that leave and malign the Church and its doctrine were never truly converted, most likely. "They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us." 1 John 2:19

You would be sorely wrong about the testimonies of those that leave. 

[Islander]

49 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You would be sorely wrong about the testimonies of those that leave. 

I quoted scripture. It is not a matter of opinion. 

[Stargazer]

7 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

To me, our missionary program doesn't make since anymore. I dont think knocking on doors is going to do any good in the future. So many more productive ways to spread the gospel. It's been the same tactic for over a 100 years, time to update it.

Made me laugh! Somehow, knocking on people's doors has worked for 2,000 years, but suddenly now we have the internet it's no longer of any value? In fact, it has been updated. The Church has been using every method at our disposal in fact, including the older "technology". 

True enough, with the advent of Amazon etc, knocking on doors is certainly less effective, much like being a proverbial door-to-door salesman is no longer a viable occupation. And even when I was on my mission in pre-internet days it was made clear to us that door-knocking was the least effective method. But sometimes it was the only method readily available, and in the absence of member referrals we were expected to go out and bother people with The Message. When all is said and done, however, It is still the case that some persons are not going to be confronted with The Message without some stranger standing before them to confront them with it. We must use all the tools at our disposal, even some that are less effective. 

The one convert family I taught, and my only baptism, were first contacted by my companion at a street display. Most of the converts I have seen coming into the wards I have belonged to came in through other members, which we were told was the most effective method of contacting, and is how I came into the Church. But there are still the occasional tracting contact who gets baptized.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by Stargazer
fixed syntax; improved wording

[AtlanticMike]

5 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Made me laugh! Somehow, knocking on people's doors has worked for 2,000 years, but suddenly now we have the internet it's no longer of any value? In fact, it has been updated. The Church has been using every method at our disposal in fact, including the older "technology". 

True enough, with the advent of Amazon etc, knocking on doors is certainly less effective, much like being a proverbial door-to-door salesman is no longer a viable occupation. And even when I was on my mission in pre-internet days it was made clear to us that door-knocking was the least effective method. But sometimes it was the only method readily available, and in the absence of member referrals we were expected to go out and bother people with The Message. When all is said and done, however, It is still the case that some persons are not going to be confronted with The Message without some stranger standing before them to confront them with it. We must use all the tools at our disposal, even some that are less effective. 

The one convert family I taught, and my only baptism, were first contacted by my companion at a street display. Most of the converts I have seen coming into the wards I have belonged to came in through other members, which we were told was the most effective method of contacting, and is how I came into the Church. But there are still the occasional tracting contact who gets baptized.

 

 

I'm going to throw this out there,I know it wouldn't happen, but to me, thinking outside the box is beneficial sometimes. Here's what I think would work. First, let the missionaries live in the church, maybe every Monday, Wednesday and Friday morning around 6am they set up a stand in the parking lot handing out bottle water and a piece a friut(banana apple orange) for free, along with a daily message and an invite to church. The rest of the time they are doing service for the community. Raking leaves, taking out trash for old people, helping with remodeling projects, you name it. The only thing they ask for in return is to put a yard sign near the road that says, "free labor and smiles provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints" phone number xxx xxx xxxx. In a few months they would have a 100 yard signs all around the community, people would start asking themselves, what's going on here, not only that but the people you helped would put it on their social media saying how the mormon missionaries helped them for free. They could reach 10x the amount of people that way. People are yearning to be inspired, to be happy, to see hope. It opens hearts. 

     Knocking on doors is coming to an end, especially with video doorbells 🤣. Soon everyone will have one and nobody will open the door anymore. 

 

Ps. they could do free friday car washes in the church parking and $2 saturday breakfast from the kitchens and people could eat in the cultural hall. 

Pss. Ok, you ready!! I'm going to blow your mind in 3, 2, 1, remove coffee as a restriction from the word of wisdom and serve coffee every saturday morning from the church kitchen, get people to actually come into the church physically. Let them see it's a normal church. Kaboom!!!!! 🤣🤣🤣

Edited February 23, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

I quoted scripture. It is not a matter of opinion. 

I read the scripture, most members don't leave the church because they lack the belief in God, some do but not all. Most leave the church, not God. The church/institution isn't God/Jesus.

[Tacenda]

dbl post

Edited February 23, 2021 by Tacenda

[JLHPROF]

8 hours ago, Islander said:

I quoted scripture. It is not a matter of opinion. 

 

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I read the scripture, most members don't leave the church because they lack the belief in God, some do but not all. Most leave the church, not God. The church/institution isn't God/Jesus.

It is possible to lose testimony of one principle of the gospel while holding on to another.  The problem is once you start tugging on a thread the entire tapestry may unravel.

But Tacenda is right to a point.  You can lose a testimony of the Church and keep a testimony of the atonement.  I'm sure we could identify other elements we could lose testimony of while maintaining the rest.  There are believing members with no testimony of D&C 132, or the garment, or tithing, or the word of wisdom.

[rchorse]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm going to throw this out there,I know it wouldn't happen, but to me, thinking outside the box is beneficial sometimes. Here's what I think would work. First, let the missionaries live in the church, maybe every Monday, Wednesday and Friday morning around 6am they set up a stand in the parking lot handing out bottle water and a piece a friut(banana apple orange) for free, along with a daily message and an invite to church. The rest of the time they are doing service for the community. Raking leaves, taking out trash for old people, helping with remodeling projects, you name it. The only thing they ask for in return is to put a yard sign near the road that says, "free labor and smiles provided by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day saints" phone number xxx xxx xxxx. In a few months they would have a 100 yard signs all around the community, people would start asking themselves, what's going on here, not only that but the people you helped would put it on their social media saying how the mormon missionaries helped them for free. They could reach 10x the amount of people that way. People are yearning to be inspired, to be happy, to see hope. It opens hearts. 

     Knocking on doors is coming to an end, especially with video doorbells 🤣. Soon everyone will have one and nobody will open the door anymore. 

 

Ps. they could do free friday car washes in the church parking and $2 saturday breakfast from the kitchens and people could eat in the cultural hall. 

Pss. Ok, you ready!! I'm going to blow your mind in 3, 2, 1, remove coffee as a restriction from the word of wisdom and serve coffee every saturday morning from the church kitchen, get people to actually come into the church physically. Let them see it's a normal church. Kaboom!!!!! 🤣🤣🤣

Missionaries already do a lot of service, but those who think they know better than the leadership of the church miss a lot of the implications of ideas like this. As soon as the church starts serving food to the public, it has to start complying with a huge number of health and food safety regulations. Charging money for a Saturday breakfast brings with it all sorts of tax implications and potential loss of tax-exempt status. With a car wash comes liability for scratched or damaged cars. Some of this could also have labor law implications.

One big issue is the people who would take advantage of the missionaries. Those with no interest in the gospel who would use them shamelessly over and over as free labor. I suspect a small number of people would occupy 100% of their time to the point that it would actually make it so they do less service overall and basically no missionary work. The other issue is supply and demand. Free labor sounds nice, but when the missionaries are booked 9+ months out for that free labor or it's impossible to schedule them to come because of such high demand, is it really doing anything to share the gospel?

Anyway, there's a lot more to think about than just giving out free stuff or labor. I'm confident that the leaders of the church have considered all these ideas and many more, but have made inspired decisions to manage the missionary program the way it's currently run. Of course there are always ways to improve, and I believe they are always trying to get better.

[AtlanticMike]

51 minutes ago, rchorse said:

Missionaries already do a lot of service, but those who think they know better than the leadership of the church miss a lot of the implications of ideas like this. As soon as the church starts serving food to the public, it has to start complying with a huge number of health and food safety regulations. Charging money for a Saturday breakfast brings with it all sorts of tax implications and potential loss of tax-exempt status. With a car wash comes liability for scratched or damaged cars. Some of this could also have labor law implications.

One big issue is the people who would take advantage of the missionaries. Those with no interest in the gospel who would use them shamelessly over and over as free labor. I suspect a small number of people would occupy 100% of their time to the point that it would actually make it so they do less service overall and basically no missionary work. The other issue is supply and demand. Free labor sounds nice, but when the missionaries are booked 9+ months out for that free labor or it's impossible to schedule them to come because of such high demand, is it really doing anything to share the gospel?

Anyway, there's a lot more to think about than just giving out free stuff or labor. I'm confident that the leaders of the church have considered all these ideas and many more, but have made inspired decisions to manage the missionary program the way it's currently run. Of course there are always ways to improve, and I believe they are always trying to get better.

Just a difference of opinion,  I listed the positives, you listed the negatives. So goes life. But have you ever asked yourself how the seventh day Adventist, a church that started at the same time Joseph restored the gospel, has surpassed our total world wide membership by over 5 million? I've never had a SDA knock on my door, maybe they do, but I've never heard of it. But I have been to a few garage sales in their parking lot. I've also been to a breakfast, for free in their church. I dont know to what extent, but it seems to me they use their buildings as a tool. It drives me crazy that our buildings just sit there! When I ride by the only people that I see at the church Monday thru Saturday are the landscapers or the hvac guy. Everytime I bring this up it's the same old thing, INSURANCE, REGULATIONS. Well, insurance and regulations is just part of life these days in just about everything. Is our church about saving money to become rich or is it meant to spread the gospel? Also, how many regulations do you think the SDA and Catholic hospitals have to follow to be a business? Life doesn't have to be scary.

 

What about opening up the cultural hall once a week for neighborhood kids to play basketball? Would that be a good idea?

Edited February 23, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[CV75]

On 2/19/2021 at 10:40 AM, AtlanticMike said:

Yes I understand what you're saying. But look at me, all it took was my brother in law sending me a link to the fairmormon videos and poof, now I'm on here talking to you trying to work my way through a faith crisis. I'm venturing out looking at different information, its a cumulative affect I would think. So, the more exmormons sending information to faithful family members is going to reduce the number of faithful members. 

What have you been able to identify as the most important issue prompting your faith crisis?

[AtlanticMike]

10 minutes ago, CV75 said:

What have you been able to identify as the most important issue prompting your faith crisis?

I'm not sure. It's not why I came on here, which was to originally ask about the fairmormon videos and to ask questions. Its deeper than that. Something is just off and I cant figure it out. I can say though I desperately want to do more, I feel like I've been spiritually doing the same thing my whole life. 

[CV75]

37 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm not sure. It's not why I came on here, which was to originally ask about the fairmormon videos and to ask questions. Its deeper than that. Something is just off and I cant figure it out. I can say though I desperately want to do more, I feel like I've been spiritually doing the same thing my whole life. 

When I look up "Faith Crisis" on lds.org, https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/faith-crisis?lang=eng I get this:

with a link to this: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/answering-gospel-questions?lang=eng

Here is a series that might help you identify your particular area of concern: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/inspiration/latter-day-saints-channel/watch/series/his-grace/faith-crisis-what-do-we-do-when-we-feel-nothing?lang=eng

Hit "Previous" "Next' or the Watch more His Grace videos here. to see more or to browse.

 

Edited February 23, 2021 by CV75

[MiserereNobis]

3 hours ago, rchorse said:

As soon as the church starts serving food to the public, it has to start complying with a huge number of health and food safety regulations. Charging money for a Saturday breakfast brings with it all sorts of tax implications and potential loss of tax-exempt status. With a car wash comes liability for scratched or damaged cars. Some of this could also have labor law implications.

My parish has free breakfasts to the public twice a month. We also host fiestas (complete with food, rides, etc.) twice a year. We haven't had any problems with the law. (Obviously I'm talking pre-pandemic times). It seems weird to hide behind the law, insurance, and regulations when other churches and organizations do these things all the time. You should see the number of groups hosting car wash fundraisers on Saturdays and Sundays in and around my town. It's very popular. No one seems to worry about damaged cars.

3 hours ago, rchorse said:

One big issue is the people who would take advantage of the missionaries. Those with no interest in the gospel who would use them shamelessly over and over as free labor.

Then the missionaries stop themselves from being taken advantage of. Again, it's very weird to hear a church say, "we can't do service because someone might take advantage of us." There's also those pesky verses in the Bible: 

Quote

38 You have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.

39 But I say to you not to resist evil: but if one strike thee on thy right cheek, turn to him also the other:

40 And if a man will contend with thee in judgment, and take away thy coat, let go thy cloak also unto him.

41 And whosoever will force thee one mile, go with him other two,

42 Give to him that asketh of thee and from him that would borrow of thee turn not away.

 

[AtlanticMike]

22 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

My parish has free breakfasts to the public twice a month. We also host fiestas (complete with food, rides, etc.) twice a year. We haven't had any problems with the law. (Obviously I'm talking pre-pandemic times). It seems weird to hide behind the law, insurance, and regulations when other churches and organizations do these things all the time. You should see the number of groups hosting car wash fundraisers on Saturdays and Sundays in and around my town. It's very popular. No one seems to worry about damaged cars.

Thank you for saying this. About ten years ago a catholic church near me had a fish fry in their parking lot, cant remember how much it cost but it wasn't much. Had music and all kinds of toys and games for the kids. Before covid, that church had to hire 2 police officers to direct traffic in and out of the parking lot they're so busy on sunday. 

 

[rchorse]

My point was not about specific activities, but that things are often much more complex than people realize.

Most of what you are suggesting has been tried either church wide or in different wards around the world, with varying degrees of success. The one clear trend that I've seen, personally, is that people brought in by free food, sports, or free labor tend not to make very good converts. There are of course exceptions, but most of the people I've observed that came from such activities didn't stay active for long.

There's also a big difference between service and offering the missionaries as free day laborers. To claim based on my one comment that the church is saying "we can't do service because someone might take advantage of us." is ridiculous, given the church's long track record of service. But it seems more and more like you just want to find fault with how the church does things, so I'll leave you to it.

[AtlanticMike]

2 minutes ago, rchorse said:

The one clear trend that I've seen, personally, is that people brought in by free food, sports, or free labor tend not to make very good converts

You have got to be kidding me! Did you actually just say that?? Who are you to judge who's a "very good" convert. Maybe they leave because certain people make them feel like  they're not very good Converts, ever think about that? Tell me what do you consider a "good" convert?

[Ahab]

5 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

You have got to be kidding me! Did you actually just say that?? Who are you to judge who's a "very good" convert. Maybe they leave because certain people make them feel like  they're not very good Converts, ever think about that? Tell me what do you consider a "good" convert?

I think he was referring to those who were not really converted, who didn't stick with it, as represented in the parable of the sower.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1999/11/of-seeds-and-soils?lang=eng

[AtlanticMike]

13 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think he was referring to those who were not really converted, who didn't stick with it, as represented in the parable of the sower.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/1999/11/of-seeds-and-soils?lang=eng

You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen a set of missionaries bring in a person who's interested in the gospel and because that person has been living a totally different lifestyle for most of their life, members have a hard time truly accepting that person. Now, that's not a mormon thing, that's human nature for the most part because we're more comfortable around people who think like us, or should I say, most are more comfortable around people who think like us. But some get baptized, leave, and come back in a few years. Our main goal should be making them feel welcome no matter what.