The different personalities found inside Mormonism

[AtlanticMike]

I've been reading 100s of older threads on here and I'm on page 60 now. I came across a thread dedicated to the "execution"/ excommunication of another fellow poster on here, someone I've been accused of being in disguise for some reason. I dont know why because he writes way better than I do. Anyways, In my 45 years of being a member I've never really thought to much about people being excommunicated. The last few days I've been mulling over in my head what I would do if I left the church. Do I have the personality type that would let me leave "the pool" without doing a cannonball off the diving board? I've really put alot of thought into this, I could be wrong, but it seems our church has a disproportionate number of members or exmembers that are willing to speak out against certain doctrines, is this correct in your opinion? 

      As far as raising young men to become righteous men, our church instils the warrior mentality. Check out the picture below. If you still dont believe, look up next time you go to the temple, that gold figure is a warrior captain famous for his actions in battle. It's ingrained in my personality, it's part of who I am. I could be totally wrong, I've never met any of these "famous" podcasters, but is the "warrior personality" what we're seeing. I'm not surprised so many people, men and women, are willing to speak out against the church. Mormons are raised to speak the truth, not lie, stand up for what we believe, to sound the trump when neccessary, atleast I was.  

      There's a good chance that "warrior" mentality doesn't just automatically turn off because you find yourself at odds with church teachings. Is this why we see so many members/exmembers speaking up? Is this warrior mentality/personality found in our church more than other denominations?

      

[JLHPROF]

I think what you are describing isn't an issue of fighting, it's an issue of the conformity cycle.

At various times throughout history society has alternated between conformity and independence. Mormon society is no different.

Leaving the outliers aside (there are always "rebels"), non-conformist tendencies appear in waves in every community.

Just look at the environment Joseph Smith was in when the restoration began.  People right now hate to be pigeonholed, value uniqueness, and that is extending among Church members.

[pogi]

I don’t think that disgruntled or disillusioned ex-members speaking out against their previous church is unique to Mormonism.

Edited February 17, 2021 by pogi

[LoudmouthMormon]

42 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Is this warrior mentality/personality found in our church more than other denominations?    

Dunno.  But I have plenty of firsthand experience with it being plenty present in other denominations.

I don't think it's a bad thing either.  I'm not sure if the notion has been canceled yet, but masculine traits are still present in plenty of men and boys.  Stuff like arming for battle, preparing to overcome obstacles, striving and competing, and related systems of advancement - good stuff.  Helps umpteen kagillions of our boys get molded into men.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

church has a disproportionate number of members or exmembers that are willing to speak out against certain doctrines, is this correct in your opinion? 

I don’t think so. There are some developed exmormon communities now since the internet provided easy communication between almost anyone, but if you compare it to the history of Catholics and others, I think we are pretty standard once the changes in communication are taken into account (which allows for easier off line interaction like conferences and retreats to turn ex membership into a business). Not sure how to research this though. My impression is from talking to a few members of other churches about their former members as well as coming across ex members forums for some faiths. 

My Catholic friends for the past 30 years as well as my study of the faith led me to think there is quite a bit of doctrinal activism among members and leaders, some of which gets a lot of attention from nonCatholics.  The whole Protestant religion is from members and ex members of the Catholic faith being willing to speak out against doctrine, after all   

With the Church (the Restored one), there may also be a a Utah factor where in most states a former member challenging doctrinal ideas or being excommunicated would not be newsworthy. But someone might attract attention in Utah (was Kate Kelly written up as much in her home state as she was in Utah?) and then that gets them far enough to go national. 
 

Otoh, because we train our people to be essentially public speakers from a young age as well as a large proportion of them are leaders of some kind, this might raise the comfort level to go public, so perhaps we have more. 

Edited February 17, 2021 by Calm

[smac97]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

The last few days I've been mulling over in my head what I would do if I left the church. Do I have the personality type that would let me leave "the pool" without doing a cannonball off the diving board?

I wonder what the utility of such mulling has.  

Quote

I've really put alot of thought into this, I could be wrong, but it seems our church has a disproportionate number of members or exmembers that are willing to speak out against certain doctrines, is this correct in your opinion? 

Not really.  I'm not sure what "disproportionate number" means.  What number would be "proportionate?"  Also, I think the "Online Disinhibition Effect" is on display these days.  Many of us are perhaps over-willing to "speak out against" this or that these days, on all sorts of topics, particularly as compared to times past.

Quote

As far as raising young men to become righteous men, our church instils the warrior mentality. Check out the picture below.

The picture is of the Stripling Warriors.  Actual warriors.  

What does "warrior mentality" mean?

Quote

If you still dont believe, look up next time you go to the temple, that gold figure is a warrior captain famous for his actions in battle.

The Angel Moroni is the son of Mormon.  The namesake of Captain Moroni.

Quote

It's ingrained in my personality, it's part of who I am. I could be totally wrong, I've never met any of these "famous" podcasters, but is the "warrior personality" what we're seeing. I'm not surprised so many people, men and women, are willing to speak out against the church. Mormons are raised to speak the truth, not lie, stand up for what we believe, to sound the trump when neccessary, at least I was.  

I encourage you to read Criticism, a 1987 article by then-Elder Oaks.  It does a pretty good job of laying out how to deal with disagreements in the Church.  "Speak{ing} out against the church" isn't part of the equation.

Quote

There's a good chance that "warrior" mentality doesn't just automatically turn off because you find yourself at odds with church teachings.

What is this "'warrior' mentality" of which you speak?

Quote

Is this why we see so many members/exmembers speaking up?

No.  There is nothing in the doctrines of the Church that justify publicly speaking or acting against the Church.  There could be theoretical circumstances under which such could be justified, but searching out such theoreticals rather exposes the pretext.  Members of the Church want to feel justified in speaking against the Church, but the explanations seldom hold water.

Let's consider this "I'm a warrior for truth" justification in other contexts:

1. I've previously said this regarding Bill Reel, whose behavior fits what you are describing:

Quote

Moreover, wanting the Church to improve is fine, but I doubt your friends go about it by publicly slamming and disparaging the Church for years on end, as Bill Reel has done.

Think of Bill Reel's behavior in other contexts.  For example, I love my wife dearly and want to remain married to her.  I also want her to improve and progress.  Would it be rational for me, in pursuing these objectives, to go out and publicly humiliate and insult and disparage my wife?  Taunt her?  Publicly belittle her?  Slander her name and character and reputation?  Encourage others to think the worst of her?  Encourage others to join me in publicly slandering her?

Surely not.  Such behavior is patently incongruous with my professed objectives.  Which would probably lead others to conclude that those professed objectives are . . . false.
...
There are no "Mormon values" that call upon members of the Church to publicly slander and insult and denigrate and profane and ridicule, as Bill Reel has done.  For years.

Thoughts?

2. An employee has a dispute with his employer regarding an issue about which reasonable minds can disagree.  If he values his relationship with his employer, would he really publicly speak against it, disparage its character, etc., and then publicly declare his own supposed fealty to "truth" as justification for such behavior?

 I've never understood the mindset of a voluntary member of an organization who feels at liberty to publicly malign and disparage and insult and hold in contempt  that organization, and then turn around and claim that they are doing it for the good of the organization, or that they are simply doing what the organization taught them to do.  

Quote

Is this warrior mentality/personality found in our church more than other denominations?

I still don't know what you mean by "warrior mentality/personality."

And I question whether the "I am a truth warrior, ergo it is my duty to publicly slander and speak against the Church" attitude arises by way of the teachings of the Church.  I don't think it does.  

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 17, 2021 by smac97

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

With the Church (the Restored one), there may also be a a Utah factor where in most states a former member challenging doctrinal ideas or being excommunicated would not be newsworthy. But someone might attract attention in Utah (was Kate Kelly written up as much in her home state as she was in Utah?) and then that gets them far enough to go national. 

I agree and it's not just about being newsworthy.  In Utah I think we see a lot of what JLHProf was talking about, where you get people who speak out when they leave as a form of street cred to show that they are different than the majority religion of the state. 

Being 'different' than the majority is often valued because of what it isn't, rather than having intrinsic value in and of itself for what it is.  And when that's the case you get people who want to claim that "Look I'm different" value by being loud (either with words, actions, or appearance).

[Duncan]

Something that has arisen that is totally shocking to me is when people have, I don't know the current name, Courts of Love, Membership review meetings etc. but these people broadcast it and tell everyone when and where and what the outcome was. Like, aren't you embarrassed? Is there no embarrassment anymore? I wouldn't want my sins and misdeed being broadcast all over the place. Telling everyone I was exed for these reasons would be  the opposite of humiliating, I can't understand that mindset. If it were me, I would tell no one it was happening and maybe share to some close friends the outcome, but I certainly wouldn't want total strangers being privy to the proceedings. Maybe for some that is the only way they get 15 minutes of fame and then a week later it's all but forgotten

[AtlanticMike]

41 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I still don't know what you mean by "warrior mentality/personality

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I've been reading 100s of older threads on here and I'm on page 60 now. I came across a thread dedicated to the "execution"/ excommunication of another fellow poster on here, someone I've been accused of being in disguise for some reason. I dont know why because he writes way better than I do. Anyways, In my 45 years of being a member I've never really thought to much about people being excommunicated. The last few days I've been mulling over in my head what I would do if I left the church. Do I have the personality type that would let me leave "the pool" without doing a cannonball off the diving board? I've really put alot of thought into this, I could be wrong, but it seems our church has a disproportionate number of members or exmembers that are willing to speak out against certain doctrines, is this correct in your opinion? 

      As far as raising young men to become righteous men, our church instils the warrior mentality. Check out the picture below. If you still dont believe, look up next time you go to the temple, that gold figure is a warrior captain famous for his actions in battle. It's ingrained in my personality, it's part of who I am. I could be totally wrong, I've never met any of these "famous" podcasters, but is the "warrior personality" what we're seeing. I'm not surprised so many people, men and women, are willing to speak out against the church. Mormons are raised to speak the truth, not lie, stand up for what we believe, to sound the trump when neccessary, atleast I was.  

      There's a good chance that "warrior" mentality doesn't just automatically turn off because you find yourself at odds with church teachings. Is this why we see so many members/exmembers speaking up? Is this warrior mentality/personality found in our church more than other denominations?

.......................

I wouldn't call it a "warrior mentality," Mike, because most Mormons are very restrained, polite folk.  I was a Marine, and I just don't find that many former Marines in the LDS Church.  Some of the Brethren were in WW II (Pres Monson was in combat in the Pacific in the U.S. Navy), and Pres Nelson was in the U.S. Army in Korea (he visited all the MASH units in Korea on an inspection tour), aside from which he is an avid skier.

However, it is true that ex-Mormons frequently find that, when they leave the faith, they can't leave it alone.  That may have to do with the basic and fundamental belief system in which so much is required.  If after all that commitment, one feels betrayed, perhaps that motivates a need for vengeance.

Calling upon LDS youth to speak in meetings, and to bear testimonies and to lead prayers, and to go on missions, is helpful in developing strong character -- unafraid to speak up when necessary, even if exposed to calumny (as Mitt Romney is suffering just now).  Being able to bear up under harsh criticism is a worthy adult personality characteristic, which many non-Mormons lack.  Perhaps that is what you have in mind as a true "warrior mentality."

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

.......................

It is true that there is a lot of heroic battle in the Book of Mormon, but here is an abstract from an article about a Book of Mormon people who refused to fight:

Quote

 

One of the most moving accounts in the Book of Mormon is of the people of Ammon, their covenant to bury and never use again their weapons of war, their faith to sacrifice themselves instead of fighting back against their Lamanite brethren, and their sacrifice to send their children to war to aid the Nephites. Some interpret the stance that the Ammonites took against war to be pacifist. Some indications point toward this conclusion: their burying their weapons, covenanting never to fight again, allowing themselves to be slaughtered twice, and being motivated in these actions out of love for their Lamanite kin. However, when the text is read more carefully, it can easily be seen that further actions would not necessarily have reflected a pacifist view toward war: not objecting to the Nephite war in their defense, providing Nephite soldiers with food and supplies, and sending their own sons into battle would surely indicate that their personal opposition to war stemmed from the covenants they made during repentance.  https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/jbms/vol18/iss1/13

 

How does this differ from the refusal to fight by Seventh Day Adventists, for example, who are willing to go into combat as medics?  The U.S. military recognizes such legitimate refusals to carry a rifle, and carefully assesses each claim by conscientious objectors.

Edited February 17, 2021 by Robert F. Smith

[AtlanticMike]

22 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I wouldn't call it a "warrior mentality," Mike, because most Mormons are very restrained, polite folk.  I was a Marine, and I just don't find that many former Marines in the LDS Church.  Some of the Brethren were in WW II (Pres Monson was in combat in the Pacific in the U.S. Navy), and Pres Nelson was in the U.S. Army in Korea (he visited all the MASH units in Korea on an inspection tour), aside from which he is an avid skier.

However, it is true that ex-Mormons frequently find that, when they leave the faith, they can't leave it alone.  That may have to do with the basic and fundamental belief system in which so much is required.  If after all that commitment, one feels betrayed, perhaps that motivates a need for vengeance.

Calling upon LDS youth to speak in meetings, and to bear testimonies and to lead prayers, and to go on missions, is helpful in developing strong character -- unafraid to speak up when necessary, even if exposed to calumny (as Mitt Romney is suffering just now).  Being able to bear up under harsh criticism is a worthy adult personality characteristic, which many non-Mormons lack.  Perhaps that is what you have in mind as a true "warrior mentality."

I'm not saying militarily, look at this screen shot I've sent you, more in a integrity or having a sense of honor. Put on the armour of God, return with honor. I'm just learning about apologetics and the views of members who have left, its larger than what I originally thought. I think part of the problem with what you say about not being able to leave the church alone is, these people, mostly men, were taught from a young age that honor, courage, integrity and strength are important qualities. You dont lose those qualities when you leave the church, so when your on the outside looking in, I think these men are still in "warrior" mode. There are dozens of articles about becoming a warrior for God, not violently, righteously. 

 

Edited February 17, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[smac97]

27 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

 

I am familiar with all of these.  I think I understand what the Church means by referencing such metaphors.  I am less sure of what you mean.

On a related note, if we are to carry through the "warrior" metaphor to its logical conclusions, wouldn't it include the idea of submitting to authority?  Such is the core of military discipline, after all.  That being the case, a "warrior mentality" would decidedly not involve publicly speaking and/or acting against those in the proverbial "chain of command."

I do not think we should speak against the Lord's anointed.  In fact, we are under covenant to not do that.

Thanks,

-Smac

Edited February 17, 2021 by smac97

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

I don’t think that disgruntled or disillusioned ex-members speaking out against their previous church is unique to Mormonism.

I guess I see it differently,  maybe I haven't done enough research yet. My point is, honor is big among mormon boys and men. We are brought up from birth to always be honorable in everything we do. Maybe these men are still fighting for their honor? It would make sense. I dont think you can give that up easily.  

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Quote

I don’t think that disgruntled or disillusioned ex-members speaking out against their previous church is unique to Mormonism.

I guess I see it differently,  maybe I haven't done enough research yet. My point is, honor is big among mormon boys and men.

So is obedience.  So is humility.  So is forgiveness.  So is respect.

4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

We are brought up from birth to always be honorable in everything we do.

There is nothing honorable in breaking covenants.

There is nothing honorable in speaking evil of the Lord's anointed.

There is nothing honorable in members under covenant publicly speaking or acting against the Church on matters that are not within our stewardship, and/or on matters about which reasonable minds can disagree.

4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

Maybe these men are still fighting for their honor?

I have no doubt that some opponents of the Church have what they feel are honorable motives.

In the main, however, I think raw emotion, spite, anger, a pound-of-flesh attitude, etc. are also common motives.  I see similar sentiments when people are getting a divorce.  Some just can't adopt a "What's past is past / live and let live" attitude, and must instead allocate fault for the break-up.  

4 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

It would make sense. I dont think you can give that up easily.  

Publicly disparaging the Church and its leaders is a means of expressing "honor?"  That seems kind of farfetched.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Bob Crockett]

Christianity is filled with warrior motifs.  Stems from the Crusades.  It's nothing. 

[Ahab]

3 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

Is this warrior mentality/personality found in our church more than other denominations? 

No. I don't think so.  I think pretty much all people are willing to assert and fight for whatever they believe in.  Right or wrong.  Good or evil.

[AtlanticMike]

Ooops

Edited February 17, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[AtlanticMike]

23 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No. I don't think so.  I think pretty much all people are willing to assert and fight for whatever they believe in.  Right or wrong.  Good or evil.

I'm starting to think you're correct the more I think about it. 

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm starting to think you're correct the more I think about it. 

That usually happens the more people think about what I say.

[AtlanticMike]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

That usually happens the more people think about what I say.

Yes. I served that to you on a silver platter 🤣🤣🤣. I knew you would hit it out of the park.👏 

Edited February 17, 2021 by AtlanticMike

[let’s roll]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Pres Nelson was in the U.S. Army in Korea (he visited all the MASH units in Korea on an inspection tour),

Would be interesting to hear his thoughts on MASH 4077 😀

[JustAnAustralian]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

Would be interesting to hear his thoughts on MASH 4077

If that were an episode, it would definitely have Klinger on it.

[AtlanticMike]

2 hours ago, smac97 said:

Publicly disparaging the Church and its leaders is a means of expressing "honor?"  That seems kind of farfetched.

Here's what I can tell you about what people who have left the church feel once on the outside. Most people will just shrug it off and just keep living life, move on, if there's pain, they deal with it quietly. What I just described is my brother in law, he's a pretty quite guy. But, some choose to push back, and the problem with this personality type is, the more you try to make them irrelevant, the more they're going to show you how relevant they think they are. They dont stop. I have to deal with this as an employer of many people with varying personality types, some very erratic because they've been in and out of jail. Basically,  I've learned how to give people a place to land softly when they're pissed off. 

      My question since I've just started listening to apologetics and certain podcast that lean toward disparaging the church name. Is there any communication between the church and the "exmormon" community? Because in my experience, ignoring people who are trying desperately to say "ok, I'll show you just how relevant I am", can come back and blow up in your face.

[pogi]

4 hours ago, AtlanticMike said:

I'm not saying militarily, look at this screen shot I've sent you, more in a integrity or having a sense of honor. Put on the armour of God, return with honor. I'm just learning about apologetics and the views of members who have left, its larger than what I originally thought. I think part of the problem with what you say about not being able to leave the church alone is, these people, mostly men, were taught from a young age that honor, courage, integrity and strength are important qualities. You dont lose those qualities when you leave the church, so when your on the outside looking in, I think these men are still in "warrior" mode. There are dozens of articles about becoming a warrior for God, not violently, righteously. 

 

If you google “Christian warrior”, you will find that the warrior mentality is very popular throughout Christianity.  I remember going to a non-denominational Christian conference on addiction recovery where being a “warrior” was the central theme of the conference.