Covid: Trump, the Nation, and Anything

[Calm]

50 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

We need to cancel all sports then because they rely on the same test. 

If that is the only thing they rely on, probably should. 

[Calm]

54 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

wear my mask but don’t like where this blame the victim game is headed. 

 

Who is blaming the victim when saying we need to cancel events that aren’t safe?  It is about protecting people from harm, not finding fault.

Quote

The only way to fully protect is to never leave your house.

And while there are some I suppose who are demanding an impossible level of protection, most I hear promoting safety protocols are talking about lowering risk, not removing it all together.  That may mean needing to take events on a case by case basis.

In our family, we got together with my son’s family during summer because we knew the level of care they were taking as well as the percentage of Covid in their neighborhood and ours. Once cases became much more common in our neighborhoods and school started, they were no longer able to limit their interaction with friends who were as cautious as them nor were we able to stay isolated save for weekly trips to the store given my husband’s university has reopened. So at this point, our small family get togethers are on hold. Chances are the next adaptation for family get together will be when vaccines are available.  We are instead having fun alternatives like having flowers delivered to my 12 year old granddaughter for her birthday...her first.  We could drop them off ourselves, but think the added touch of the service will be more memorable.  And it is a local business following social distancing, etc. 
 

If they ever require masks at my physical therapy place, I will go back to that even though given the huffing and puffing that is still a risk...but balanced with the risk of getting more out of shape.

I get frustration because people are getting sick even when doing everything they should. But we don’t throw away speed laws or safety measures built into cars because sometimes random stuff happens and people get killed.  Instead we look for better ways to be safe, building cars that absorb the impact, require seat belts and air bags, etc.  We also hold accountable those who intentionally act in more dangerous ways, such as driving over the speed limit or driving drunk.  
 

Why not follow the same basic system of learning what helps and what doesn’t and adapting when discovering gaps and errors, supporting medically and if possible financially victims to help them get better, but also encouraging safer behaviour by holding accountable those who put others in danger through intentional ignorance, carelessness, or outright malice?
 

Life has always been a balancing act between cost and benefits, risks and rewards.  Covid is just very good at bringing this out imo.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Calm

[Teancum]

4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

A lot of the comments here are reading like schadenfreude, but maybe that's just me.  (I'm not really an apologist for the current POTUS, but there is a lot of really blatant, unmistakable schadenfreude out there about his diagnosis right now, so perhaps I'm simply sensitive to it.)

P.S.: I think it's funny/strange/hypocritical how nobody ever talks about a riot being a superspreader event.  After all, with this president in office?  Rioting is a patriotic duty!   (Is BLM gonna stand down once Joe's elected?)

P.P.S.:  Who knows if the "dimensions" I got back are accurate, but it is interesting to Google "Trump height weight."  If Mr. Trump is obese, then I should've died 20 years ago.    

Mas protests and/or riots are superspreader events. Now you should he happy!  😁

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Trump is obese but not grossly obese

I do think there is some intentional overstatement about his weight. How many times in an article does one really need to hear someone is obese?  If so, really tacky.
 

When it gets mentioned much more than age, which is apparently a much higher risk factor once you get that many years under your belt****, I get suspicious something besides being informative is going on. 

****Obesity is a high risk factor in those younger, but it skips in the ratings as age goes up.  One expert used the word “overwhelmed” as if obesity almost becomes a non factor, but he may have been just focusing too much on making clear that age is the biggest risk...perhaps because he is worried if obesity gets focused on, older people without that issue will become less cautious. 

[bsjkki]

25 minutes ago, Calm said:

Who is blaming the victim when saying we need to cancel events that aren’t safe?  It is about protecting people from harm, not finding fault.

I get frustration because people are getting sick even when doing everything they should. But we don’t throw away speed laws or safety measures built into cars because sometimes random stuff happens and people get killed.  Instead we look for better ways to be safe, building cars that absorb the impact, require seat belts and air bags, etc.  We also hold accountable those who intentionally act in more dangerous ways, such as driving over the speed limit or driving drunk.  
 

Why not follow the same basic system of learning what helps and what doesn’t and adapting when discovering gaps and errors, supporting medically and if possible financially victims to help them get better, but also encouraging safer behaviour by holding accountable those who put others in danger through intentional ignorance, carelessness, or outright malice?
 

 

We need to cancel church then too. The mask wearing is done badly. Aerosols travel much further than 6 feet and I have not seen that maintained. We all remove masks to take the Sacrament. The virus does care what we do.

I’m having cognitive dissonance about the needs of of ‘stopping an airborne virus’ and causing downstream consequences that are snowballing and unsustainable. We know the initial projections (deaths) for this virus were not accurate. We know the risk groups. We know in the 2nd wave, the case to deaths ratio had plummeted. 

School is risky. Work is risky. My spouse has been on 26 flights since April. The kids are not okay. It is hard to know what risks are okay and which are not.

Everyone was tested at this event and it got through. Chris Christy was tested Tuesday and was negative. He got exposed at the White House and is now positive. They were testing everyone coming in but it was too late.

To be safe, we should go back to under 10...I’m not sure the people’s mental health or the economy can sustain that.

 

[Calm]

15 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Everyone was tested at this event and it got through. Chris Christy was tested Tuesday and was negative. He got exposed at the White House and is now positive. They were testing everyone coming in but it was too late.

But the testing was more or less meaningless on its own if it only worked 30% of the time. It might have been enough though if used in conjunction with masks and social distancing, no hugging. It was relying solely on one thing to prevent spreading and doing that improperly to a highly significant amount (30% error is going to drastically increase risk).  Since it was outside, masking and social distancing might have lowered the aerosols to wear ventilation/breezes carried most away before they could be inhaled.  Without masks or distancing, even outside you would get droplets going directly from one mouth/nose to the next one.  Hugging likely means aerosols were being breathed in before they could be wafted away on the rose scented air  

The problem with the Rose Garden was not the testing, but assuring them that testing was all that was needed. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Calm

[Calm]

10 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

We need to cancel church then too.

In areas where there are a number of cases in the community, that would probably be wise to go back to at home or go virtual. In rural or small communities that are relatively isolated or countries or areas that have been able to keep it from getting into the community very much, such as New Zealand, if those who traveled outside the community self quarantined, it could be possible that the risk is low enough to allow for meetings. 

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Who is blaming the victim when saying we need to cancel events that aren’t safe?  It is about protecting people from harm, not finding fault.

And while there are some I suppose who are demanding an impossible level of protection, most I hear promoting safety protocols are talking about lowering risk, not removing it all together.  That may mean needing to take events on a case by case basis.

In our family, we got together with my son’s family during summer because we knew the level of care they were taking as well as the percentage of Covid in their neighborhood and ours. Once cases became much more common in our neighborhoods and school started, they were no longer able to limit their interaction with friends who were as cautious as them nor were we able to stay isolated save for weekly trips to the store given my husband’s university has reopened. So at this point, our small family get togethers are on hold. Chances are the next adaptation for family get together will be when vaccines are available.  We are instead having fun alternatives like having flowers delivered to my 12 year old granddaughter for her birthday...her first.  We could drop them off ourselves, but think the added touch of the service will be more memorable.  And it is a local business following social distancing, etc. 
 

If they ever require masks at my physical therapy place, I will go back to that even though given the huffing and puffing that is still a risk...but balanced with the risk of getting more out of shape.

I get frustration because people are getting sick even when doing everything they should. But we don’t throw away speed laws or safety measures built into cars because sometimes random stuff happens and people get killed.  Instead we look for better ways to be safe, building cars that absorb the impact, require seat belts and air bags, etc.  We also hold accountable those who intentionally act in more dangerous ways, such as driving over the speed limit or driving drunk.  
 

Why not follow the same basic system of learning what helps and what doesn’t and adapting when discovering gaps and errors, supporting medically and if possible financially victims to help them get better, but also encouraging safer behaviour by holding accountable those who put others in danger through intentional ignorance, carelessness, or outright malice?
 

Life has always been a balancing act between cost and benefits, risks and rewards.  Covid is just very good at bringing this out imo.

I'm probably a hypocrite, last night my husband and I attended a wedding reception of a close friend. I had my mask all ready to put on but no one had them on. I'm feeling so guilty for not wearing mine. It was mainly outdoors and I tried to maintain distance but it didn't work so well. They had people go into a building to get the refreshments and only one man had a mask, an elderly man who was the bride's grandpa, while speaking to his wife and he, I mentioned to his wife that I thought he was the smart one, but she wasn't listening to what I said and said she thought it was silly that he had it on, and I reiterated that I thought he was smart and I should have had mine on. 

I am not going to be a sheep hopefully in the future and wear it even if I look like the odd one out. Recently my BIL became bishop of his ward and he had recently given someone a blessing, turns out that person had covid and so now my BIL was exposed. This thing is getting crazy, and I am ashamed that I was afraid to wear mine yesterday. 

Edited October 3, 2020 by Tacenda

[bsjkki]

43 minutes ago, Calm said:

In areas where there are a number of cases in the community, that would probably be wise to go back to at home or go virtual. In rural or small communities that are relatively isolated or countries or areas that have been able to keep it from getting into the community very much, such as New Zealand, if those who traveled outside the community self quarantined, it could be possible that the risk is low enough to allow for meetings. 

The problem I see with the New Zealand plan is, unless there is a vaccine, there is no plan on how to reopen. Whenever they do, the virus will spread. Are they going to keep their borders closed forever? For a vaccine to be approved it only needs to work 50 percent if the time. 

Some scientists are recommending a move towards herd immunity as we protect the most vulnerable. Their are different theories about the best way to go.

Edited October 3, 2020 by bsjkki

[Calm]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

To be safe, we should go back to under 10...I’m not sure the people’s mental health or the economy can sustain that.

There are a lot of things we as a whole could have been doing easily, but haven’t yet...like a full commitment to mask wearing and social distancing. We don’t know yet what it can accomplish in our country because no area has been able to do it sufficiently to see because even committed areas are surrounded by others less committed and people interact. 
 

Maybe that means it will never work, our culture is just too resistant, but it seems unfortunate to me to choose to give up on even basic efforts instead of keeping pushing at them. Maybe we will get a miracle and someone will catch peoples’ imagination and get everyone on board wearing masks so we can give it a serious effort. 

Mask mandating everywhere, social distancing everywhere, hand washing...doing these simple and non intrusive things could help a lot without a huge impact on the economy overall (bars and restaurants would have to adapt to pushing takeout...bars might end up folding, theatres as well). And almost everyone can do them.  Masks do make a big difference. The Korean Starbucks where a mass of customers got sick, but no staff did because they wore masks demonstrated this very well. 

[The Nehor]

Christ Christie has reported testing positive. Looking more and more like the origin event was the White House gathering based around the new Supreme Court nominee.

A recent press conference had a physician attending to the President referred to this being 72 hours into the diagnosis. This suggests they knew he was positive on Wednesday. This contradicts the official narrative. I trust the doctor more.

Reports on the President’s status vary. There was a tweet sent today but it does not match the President’s usual style so it is suspected of being sent on his behalf. One leak said that vitals are not improving and the next 24 hours will be critical. He is taking Remesdivir which is another experimental treatment that is not FDA approved for general use. This also suggests the case is bad. The press conference did not answer questions about whether he was on steroids or supplemental oxygen. There are reports that the President took supplemental oxygen before walking to Marine One to go to the hospital yesterday. On the other hand there are statements that he is not on oxygen right now and that the fever has abated which suggest it might be getting better. This is not an “out of the woods” thing if true as Covid cases have a tendency to yo-yo back and forth. Many people think they are getting better and end up back in the hospital or even dead. Still, that would be a better situation. I am not sure who to trust here. On one hand the White House team has every reason to spin the prognosis as good but on the other hand sources can have many reasons to churn up pessimism.

Axios has started a tracker for prominent individuals in this latest outbreak and they have been keeping it updated: https://www.axios.com/trump-republicans-coronavirus-covid-positive-0c465d3b-b1df-4096-a1b8-6df63efbf2f7.html

[Calm]

37 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The problem I see with the New Zealand plan is, unless there is a vaccine, there is no plan on how to reopen. Whenever they do, the virus will spread. Are they going to keep their borders closed forever? For a vaccine to be approved it only needs to work 50 percent if the time. 

Some scientists are recommending a move towards herd immunity as we protect the most vulnerable. Their are different theories about the best way to go.

Do you know there is no plan as opposed to just waiting until a vaccine is known to be available or not before implementing any changes? (Serious question, not challenge).

While plans should be made in anticipation of no vaccine, I don’t see a reason why those plans would need to be implemented now.  Herd immunity efforts probably should wait at least a few more months until we know more about long term effects. If a significant part of the population gets significant chronic illness or disability from infection, in the long run that could be more costly to a country than extending the semi lockdowns an extra six months or year.

Edited October 3, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I do think there is some intentional overstatement about his weight. How many times in an article does one really need to hear someone is obese?  If so, really tacky.
 

When it gets mentioned much more than age, which is apparently a much higher risk factor once you get that many years under your belt****, I get suspicious something besides being informative is going on. 

****Obesity is a high risk factor in those younger, but it skips in the ratings as age goes up.  One expert used the word “overwhelmed” as if obesity almost becomes a non factor, but he may have been just focusing too much on making clear that age is the biggest risk...perhaps because he is worried if obesity gets focused on, older people without that issue will become less cautious. 

This is mostly a parroting of cable news. All three of the major news networks (including Fox) were talking about co-morbidities. This is one of the curses of the 24 hour news cycle. You run out of ‘breaking’ things and have to call in talking heads to quibble about the last news and it often descends into minute examination of trivialities.

[The Nehor]

37 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

The problem I see with the New Zealand plan is, unless there is a vaccine, there is no plan on how to reopen. Whenever they do, the virus will spread. Are they going to keep their borders closed forever? For a vaccine to be approved it only needs to work 50 percent if the time. 

Some scientists are recommending a move towards herd immunity as we protect the most vulnerable. Their are different theories about the best way to go.

Achieving natural Herd immunity (with no vaccine would mean quadrupling the current death toll at least. It is not a viable strategy.

If I had the power to do it and believed people would follow it my advice would be another hard lockdown for a month followed by intensive contact tracing of surviving cases to stamp out the disease along with strict quarantine being followed for people entering the country. We can stamp it out but we never really tried. The first lockdown was too short and weak and happened only after the disease got in. Ideally we should have set up a quarantine for all international travelers before there were very many cases.

[bsjkki]

11 minutes ago, Calm said:

Masks do make a big difference. The Korean Starbucks where a mass of customers got sick, but no staff did because they wore masks demonstrated this very well. 

There are two sides to that study. It shows masks do work but that indoor dining can not happen without risk.

I still go out to eat and take that risk. I choose to.  I don’t think all indoor dining should be shut down. But, stay home if you’re risk is higher. 

I choose to fly and wear my mask. There is risk but I don’t think the airlines should be grounded.

Good article on risk of death. Tons of interesting charts and graphs.

https://ourworldindata.org/mortality-risk-covid#case-fatality-rate-of-covid-19-by-age

[The Nehor]

6 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

A lot of the comments here are reading like schadenfreude, but maybe that's just me.  (I'm not really an apologist for the current POTUS, but there is a lot of really blatant, unmistakable schadenfreude out there about his diagnosis right now, so perhaps I'm simply sensitive to it.)

P.S.: I think it's funny/strange/hypocritical how nobody ever talks about a riot being a superspreader event.  After all, with this president in office?  Rioting is a patriotic duty!   (Is BLM gonna stand down once Joe's elected?)

P.P.S.:  Who knows if the "dimensions" I got back are accurate, but it is interesting to Google "Trump height weight."  If Mr. Trump is obese, then I should've died 20 years ago.    

It is generally accepted that the height and weight Trump’s physician gave are false. People immediately noticed that the weight given was exactly one pound short of being obese back then and his body shape and size did not match the reported findings. 

[Calm]

43 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I am not going to be a sheep hopefully in the future and wear it even if I look like the odd one out. Re

Maybe there were others feeling the same way and if you had put it on, they would have too.
 

My suggestion is to get a nice looking one, maybe with some decoration so it is more like dressing up than wearing something medical. There are some pretty ones on Etsy. Just be sure they have enough layers and that any embroidery if that is what you choose doesn’t go all the way through, but are only on the outer layer (less ways for aerosols to sneak through, though likely going out the sides enough the little bit won’t make a significant difference).  
 

If you carry a purse, you could include a box of masks that you can hand out.  Say if someone compliments you on your mask and says they were thinking of wearing one but wasn’t sure, you can whip out one for them or let them take it direct from the box. Also have the name of the website that did your mask so you can make it that much easier for them to get one. 

[Stargazer]

17 hours ago, The Nehor said:

not a constitutional scholar so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

Your assessment seems sound to me.

[Bernard Gui]

I have come to the conclusion that whatever precautions I take, eventually I am going to be exposed to the virus. The fungus is amongus. Because it is so highly contagious, I reckon I'm going to have some sick days in the future. Sister Gui has come to the same conclusion. One of her kindergarten colleagues showed symptoms similar to the virus yesterday, so she has been tested and is staying home, but they were in meetings together with other teachers (following distancing and mask provisions, of course) last week. Our district was to start in-class teaching on Tuesday, but because of rising cases locally (not rising death rates), it has once again been postponed. So back to on-line next week.  Nevertheless, when her kiddos come back to class, whenever that happens and regardless the conditions imposed, we will both eventually be exposed. Just like the seasonal flu, it's a fact of life now.

Mr. Biden has taken extraordinary steps to avoid exposure, but that cannot go on forever, especially if he is elected. I wish President Trump and his wife and the others who contracted it the very best and hope for their speedy recovery. Playing the blame game is pointless.

[The Nehor]

The doctor who gave the “72 hour” comment about the Trump’s illness has retracted it but questions about when the President was tested are still unanswered.

The Senate has announced that they are shutting down until the 19th to prevent spread. Over half of the Senate is 65 or older.

There are a lot of reports coming out about the President’s health but most are unsubstantiated. Some seem designed to prop up his image and others to make him look cowardly. Any of them could be true but there is a lot of fiction running rampant.

[CV75]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Who called it a superspreader event?

The Dojo: the leg spreaders were on sale for $39.99 and we had our top 5 spreaders demonstrate (as opposed to protest).

Edited October 3, 2020 by CV75

[Duncan]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I'm probably a hypocrite, last night my husband and I attended a wedding reception of a close friend. I had my mask all ready to put on but no one had them on. I'm feeling so guilty for not wearing mine. It was mainly outdoors and I tried to maintain distance but it didn't work so well. They had people go into a building to get the refreshments and only one man had a mask, an elderly man who was the bride's grandpa, while speaking to his wife and he, I mentioned to his wife that I thought he was the smart one, but she wasn't listening to what I said and said she thought it was silly that he had it on, and I reiterated that I thought he was smart and I should have had mine on. 

I am not going to be a sheep hopefully in the future and wear it even if I look like the odd one out. Recently my BIL became bishop of his ward and he had recently given someone a blessing, turns out that person had covid and so now my BIL was exposed. This thing is getting crazy, and I am ashamed that I was afraid to wear mine yesterday. 

I saw recently on FB a Utah wedding, wasn't yours! but few if any were wearing masks. I was gobsmacked, so wear a mask! it's inconvenient but so is being hooked up to a ventilator at the Hospital or possibly spreading it to vulnerable people. I went shopping this morning, everyone was wearing a mask. Here if you balk against a mask, you get shamed and laughed at. We just don't put up with it. Nothing violent of course

[Tacenda]

It's getting bad...this Bundy dude needs to take a hike! He and his followers are making it so we will have to endure covid for far longer than needed to be.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/10/idaho-high-school-football-game-stopped-at-halftime-after-dispute-involving-ammon-bundy/?fbclid=IwAR3SaXE80OgYnGIo1DpgpnlM5gEnPK4kARIBkvFRiHamaf6AyQjoGkscut0

[Duncan]

4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

It's getting bad...this Bundy dude needs to take a hike! He and his followers are making it so we will have to endure covid for far longer than needed to be.

https://www.eastidahonews.com/2020/10/idaho-high-school-football-game-stopped-at-halftime-after-dispute-involving-ammon-bundy/?fbclid=IwAR3SaXE80OgYnGIo1DpgpnlM5gEnPK4kARIBkvFRiHamaf6AyQjoGkscut0

he needs to be locked up, what a lunatic. He's a member of the church. I don't know if he is in "good standing" but

[The Nehor]

NFL just announced a delayed game due to Covid. A friend of mine gives it to week 6 before they shut down the season. We are in week 4.