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Covid: Trump, the Nation, and Anything


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Opening to avoid swamping the medical thread for the next few weeks with this news....no restrictions as far as I am concerned, but mods might not like it if toopolitical.

Edited by Calm
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4 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

As the Donald goes, so goes the nation?

If you mean the title,it is more in line with something like "Life, the Universe, and Everything"...IOW  I wasn't intending to limit the thread...was thinking I should add the "World" as well to more accurately portray my thought.

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30 minutes ago, pogi said:

Is there any indication of when his symptoms first presented?

Only thing I heard was he attended a fundraiser Thursday hours before (edited correction) testing positive (one website is saying anonymous source with "direct knowledge"...:rolleyes: claims donors are "freaking out"), so sounds like yesterday evening....but he might have gone if mildly uncomfortable, justifying it as people were supposed to stay 6 feet away and most interaction was reported as outside.  They are claiming they found out Hicks had it just as they were leaving for the event.

Whether or not the President was included in this or they are telling the truth, who knows (rather tragic that lack of trust I am thinking), but the RNC said everyone who attended the event passed the temperature test (but goes on to say "and was 6 feet from the president" so may not include president).

I am not going to stop myself...can you imagine how ticked off you would be if you ended up very sick or a loved one did after spending $250,000 for a ticket and you find out Trump knew Hicks had tested positive before the event.  For all he knew Hicks could have gotten it from him.  Callous disregard imo

added:  New York Times reports Trump appeared lethargic at fundraiser....I think Nehor mentioned it.  But he was traveling lots in the previous 2 days, so that could have been the issue.

Edited by Calm
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NYTimes says some thought the president sounded raspy Thursday night on a FOX interview, but looks like the official position is from Mark Meadows, who reported Trump was showing mild symptoms on Friday morning.

Still reading back in time....looks like 11 cases have been tied to the predebate planning and set-up, mostly out of staters.  I am wondering if that includes White House staff.  Was Mike Lee at the debate?

Edited by Calm
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Jenkins, the president of Notre Dame who has tested positive, reports he was given a rapid test when he arrived at the WH and was then told he could remove his mask..  Mike Lee was also there unmasked and hugging people at event (I like friendly people, but really?!  Jenkins got tested due to a colleague being sick.  If he was the source of the spread (assuming that event was the exposure...), he has some major egg on his face since he has been threatening to send students home for not wearing masks and social distancing.

I am really curious now about if there is one spreader or several for the cases popping up.

Again from the NYT, the rapid testing system used by the WH is meant to test people who have symptoms.  It is good for then determining if they have it or not.  However, if they don't have symptoms, it may miss as many as 1/3 of the cases.  

To then tell people that it was alright to take off their masks at the gathering was idiotic and verges on criminal to me given people have died from this disease and many are suffering chronic illnesses now.

Edited by Calm
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Pogi, refresh my memory please.  I assume contract tracers try to work backwards as well as forwards, so what happens if someone knows they have Covid, but refuses to tell or even lies about it.  I assume it isn't illegal, though I wonder if somenine could sue.

And I wonder if it could be illegal to knowingly expose the President or Vice President to a contagious illness without giving them the option to take the risk.  Given how that could be construed as a threat to national security.

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I watched the whole debate and I doubt the President had a fever. He got a little flushed towards the end but it did not seem like a sickness thing. Then again he might be good at hiding it. So who knows.?

I did some research on what happens if a Presidential or Vice Presidential were to die before the election or after the election but before the electoral college votes are cast. Note that in many states the ballots are already fixed and, by law, cannot be changed. Much would depend on the electoral college. State law sometimes binds electors to vote for the candidate that wins. An interesting court challenge would be to consider if you are still bound to vote for the person even if they are dead. Most states that are not bound would presumably cast their electoral votes for the Vice President on the ticket that won. 

In most cases the Vice President would take power on Inauguration Day. If the President was not dead but was disabled and unable to fill the function of their office on Inauguration Day the Vice President would act in the office until the President had recovered enough. In essence it would mean using the 25th amendment. As the President may not have a cabinet the Vice President alone might constitute a majority of the cabinet for determining if the President is unable to perform the functions of the office. If the Vice President dies before taking office the general belief is that new VP would have to be selected via the 25th amendment. There is a minority that believes the President can select a VP before the inauguration without congressional approval but it seems dubious to me.

A real outside crazy scenario would be what if both people on the winning ticket were dead. It appears that the choice for President would fall to the House and the VP pick would fall to the Senate. To my understanding the House is required to pick amongst the top three electoral “vote getters” so there might be a push for a faithless elector to open up another option. It is also not a pure House vote. Each state’s house delegation gets one vote in that choice so having a House majority does not mean you are in charge. As the House stands now the Republicans would probably control such a vote even though they are in the minority in terms of seats. Of course if this outside scenario occurred it would depend on the House that is elected in the November election.

I am not a constitutional scholar so take it all with a grain of salt.

 

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9 minutes ago, Calm said:

And I wonder if it could be illegal to knowingly expose the President or Vice President to a contagious illness without giving them the option to take the risk.  Given how that could be construed as a threat to national security.

It is illegal to intentionally spread Covid. The Justice Department has stated that they are treating intentionally spreading Covid to others as terrorism. Under state laws it would probably fall under the laws covering STIs where knowingly spreading it to others without consent is a crime. There have been a few arrests but I believe all were at the state level or below. Targeting the President might bump up the punishment as high as treason.

You could also sue someone under personal injury but proving intent might be difficult. There is a lawsuit from a firm in Louisiana attempting a class-action lawsuit against china for letting the virus escape their nation. It is predicted to go absolutely nowhere. You can’t try foreign nations in US courts except in very limited and specific circumstances.

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From the speculation I have read, I think the Supreme Court announcement and events Saturday are the more likely cause of this outbreak. Thom Tillis and Mike Lee, both R's on the Judiciary committee, have tested positive. Ronna McDanial, 3 WH press reporters. Saturday has the proper infection to symptom time frame. The debate was too soon for it to have been the initial even but it could possibly spread further. Even those who have tested negative are still at risk for the next two weeks of developing the virus, including Biden and his staff. 

I also think this shows, stopping an airborne virus is very difficult. In most cases of Covid, I wonder if people blame the victim? I mean, they must have done something wrong to get infected, right? 

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1 hour ago, pogi said:

Is there any indication of when his symptoms first presented?

Serious symptoms appear to have started on Wednesday or Thursday (today). With the incubation period it was probably caught before that and the infectious period probably occurred by at least Monday. Then again we have found that some do not spread the disease much so it might not be a danger. The Cleveland debate staff may have caught it then from the President of someone on his staff. It is far enough out now to get positive tests though as far as I know none of them are showing symptoms yet.

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28 minutes ago, Calm said:

Pogi, refresh my memory please.  I assume contract tracers try to work backwards as well as forwards, so what happens if someone knows they have Covid, but refuses to tell or even lies about it.  I assume it isn't illegal, though I wonder if somenine could sue.

And I wonder if it could be illegal to knowingly expose the President or Vice President to a contagious illness without giving them the option to take the risk.  Given how that could be construed as a threat to national security.

If someone tests positive and subsequently violates County mandated isolation/quarantine, it is illegal.  It could also be considered reckless endangerment, with definite lawsuits possible.

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On 10/2/2020 at 7:22 PM, bsjkki said:

I also think this shows, stopping an airborne virus is very difficult. In most cases of Covid, I wonder if people blame the victim? I mean, they must have done something wrong to get infected, right? 

Given masks are mostly presented as stopping others from getting infected (though studies have shown they help protect as well), I think there is less likelihood to blame someone who gets sick....at least I haven't seen or heard it much.

Trump is a bit different though because it is his attitude that appears to be driving the choices of those around him.  He could have even enforced the mask wearing and 6 feet, etc. and chose not to at tons of events he went to as well as where he works and lives.

And they were telling people a test wrong 30% of the time with no symptoms meant those attending a party didn't have to wear masks.  Probably the same at other events or just working in the WH.  That is, imo, on Trump's head.

Edited by Calm
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2 minutes ago, pogi said:

If someone tests positive and subsequently violates County mandated isolation/quarantine, it is illegal.  It could also be considered reckless endangerment, with definite lawsuits possible.

But do they have to tell others?

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30 minutes ago, Calm said:

But do they have to tell others?

Are you talking about people they had contact with before they knew they were positive?  No, it is not required but highly encouraged.  

But once they know that they are positive, if they have to tell some they are in contact with that they are positive, then they are already in violation of the law.   If they do have to be hospitalized, and therefore have contact with others, they are required to inform the hospital in advance that they are positive. 
 

If it is true that he knew he was positive before the event, then he could be in deep _____.  I highly doubt that though.  But even if he didn’t “know” but was still symptomatic, that is just pure recklessness.

Edited by pogi
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27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Serious symptoms appear to have started on Wednesday or Thursday (today). With the incubation period it was probably caught before that and the infectious period probably occurred by at least Monday. Then again we have found that some do not spread the disease much so it might not be a danger. The Cleveland debate staff may have caught it then from the President of someone on his staff. It is far enough out now to get positive tests though as far as I know none of them are showing symptoms yet.

CDC guidelines are that isolation will be for 10 days minimum from symptom onset. Infectious period is considered to begin 48 hours before symptom onset.  Anyone in close contact with him in that time period should be quarantined for 2 weeks from last contact.  

So, if his symptoms started on Wednesday at the earliest, then his minimum isolation period will be through Saturday, Oct. 10.  The 11th will be the first day off isolation if his symptoms are resolved.  However, he needs 24 hours of symptom recovery before he can end isolation, so it could potentially be longer then 10 days - that is just a minimum.  Just a heads up for people to know what to expect.

When is the next debate scheduled?  Will he be in isolation?

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Update: Marine One (the President’s helicopter) is moving the President to Walter Reed now. This is obviously earlier than intended so it can be assumed the disease’s progression is worse than expected. There was a quote from the White House earlier that said that keeping him in the White House was, in essence, a calculated risk.

Also did some research on Regeneron, the experimental treatment he is taking. It is in Phase 3 trials with only about 250 people having taken it so far. He also, according to reports, received the highest dose. This leads many to think the case is bad if they are using experimental drugs at high doses. Taking the drug for just a fever would be irresponsible at best. One doctor has stated that you could not pay him enough to take the drug at that dose unless the alternative was almost certainly worse. Others state that it is harmless even if it does not work. I do not know enough to comment on who is right.

They have added chills to the list of symptoms so we are up to fever, chills, congestion, and cough. Reports from the White House say he was tired and having trouble breathing. He was flown to the hospital and walked on his own. One source in the White House said one consideration to move up the hospital visit was that he might not be able to walk tomorrow. There is a report that the First Lady’s symptoms are not as severe. The President has only one tweet from today and that is his video saying he thinks he is okay. The President is at the hospital and there was a small group of supporters outside.

No reports of having Vice President Pence assume the duties of the Presidency at this time though Nancy Pelosi was contacted to ensure continuance of government if anything were to happen.

Kellyanne Conway and Senator Thom Tillis are both reported to have Covid. Kellyanne is coughing a lot according to her daughter while the senator is reporting no symptoms at this time. 

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