Tacenda Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, pogi said: I'm sure the Daybell's agree. That is the dilemma. As long as one perceives that they can discern, then they should feel justified in killing in the name of God, according to you. You will likely reply "no, they have to have the actual ability to discern, and not merely the perception that they can." To which I will reply, all we have are our perceptions. Pogi, I hope you don't mind me speaking up, but are you saying you don't believe Nephi was a good person or speaks for God throughout the BoM? Edited July 15, 2020 by Tacenda
Meadowchik Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 31 minutes ago, CV75 said: Perhaps an opportunity to expand upon that divine spiritual experience ( Posted 21 hours ago ) : Should one forgive Nephi -- however immoral one believes his killing of Laban to be -- just as the repentant Lamanites in Alma 24 were received among the believers and permitted to live according to Nephite law? Good question. However, how can you forgive if you insist there's nothing to forgive?
CV75 Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 12 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Good question. However, how can you forgive if you insist there's nothing to forgive? The question is for those who feel Nephi's action to some extent was immoral (the term "however immoral" is not intended to imply the inclusion of "not immoral"). The question is not for any who insist there is nothing to forgive, or who aren't having a divine spiritual experience in their assessment of Nephi's guilt and upon which to build the spiritual experience of forgiveness.
pogi Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tacenda said: Pogi, I hope you don't mind me speaking up, but are you saying you don't believe Nephi was a good person or speaks for God throughout the BoM? No, I'm not saying that he wasn't a good person. Ultimately God decides who is good and who is not. I don't even know if he existed or not. I'm saying that if all that we have to rely on is our perceptions, then killing in the name of God creates a huge dilemma for me that I don't know how to resolve. If the take away message is that it is faithful to follow your perception if you perceive that God is commanding you to kill someone, I have to wonder - is it ok for me to follow my perceptions in killing in the name of God? Is it ok for you to follow your perceptions? Is it ok for believers in any God to be faithful to their perceptions? Is it only ok for those who believe in the Judeo/Christian God to be faithful to their perceptions? Or, is it only ok for Latter-day Saints to follow their perceptions (except for the Daybell's, of course. Why would they think that they should be faithful in following their perceptions - crazy right? Where would they get that idea from?). Edited July 15, 2020 by pogi
Tacenda Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, pogi said: No, I'm not saying that he wasn't a good person. I don't even know if he existed or not. I'm saying that if all that we have to rely on is our perceptions, then killing in the name of God sets a dangerous precedent. It creates a huge dilemma for me that I don't know how to resolve. If the take away message is that it is faithful to follow your perception if you perceive that God is commanding you to kill someone, then that is a dangerous message. Is it ok for me to follow my perceptions in killing in the name of God? Is it ok for you? Is it ok for believers in any God? Is it only ok for those who believe in the Judeo/Christian God? Is it ok for Latter-day Saints only? Does that make it ok for the Daybell's, then? Oh I'm in total agreement, just didn't see how it fit with a belief in the church paradigm.
Meadowchik Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, CV75 said: The question is for those who feel Nephi's action to some extent was immoral (the term "however immoral" is not intended to imply the inclusion of "not immoral"). The question is not for any who insist there is nothing to forgive, or who aren't having a divine spiritual experience in their assessment of Nephi's guilt and upon which to build the spiritual experience of forgiveness. Then forgiveness is another thread altogether. Those who see no sin can continue and build upon Nephi's actions as a model of righteousness. They will model their discipleship after him. And if they are modelling their discipleship after sin, they'll likely harm others and themselves. Those who see the sin may decide to forgive Nephi the man, yet continue to be wounded by those who deny the sin. The mentality of harming others because one feels compelled to do so by belief is very dangerous. Edited July 15, 2020 by Meadowchik
pogi Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 47 minutes ago, Tacenda said: Oh I'm in total agreement, just didn't see how it fit with a belief in the church paradigm. There will always be unknowns, dilemmas, and mysteries as we wrestle with angels. It doesn't shake my faith. I am confident in my relationship with God and place in the church. But this dilemma does make one wonder - how confident should I be? Confident enough to kill if I felt so inspired? There is a fine balance between being faithful to our perceptions and leaving enough room to question them. Ahab, for example, thinks that it is a sign of weak faith to question your perception if you perceive God as telling you to do something . I think it is a sign of spiritual prudence and maturity, and it might just prevent you from turning into the next Lori Daybell. Edited July 15, 2020 by pogi 1
mfbukowski Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 21 hours ago, Ahab said: That doesn't make sense to me. It's a dilemma for people who have enough ego to put down other people's spirituality, thereby displaying their own lack of humility and pride, and automatically labeling themselves as misguided? Does that comment make sense to you? Sometimes I skip steps when I write and others can't understand me. I think we need to break it down. This is important I think. Suppose someone had a huge ego and thought they were smarter than others and had the right to correct them- but the "truth" is that they really were no smarter or more spiritual than anyone else. They were just bragging about how smart and spiritual they were, and always imposing their own beliefs on others, like "Well I will teach you the truth, since I am smarter than you, and more spiritual, so you should listen to me and not follow what is in your own heart" Suppose someone had that attitude. Such a person would have a big ego - a grandiose perception of themselves as a spiritual giant- while they were not. By being that way, they were "putting down"- minimizing or lessening- the intelligence and spirituality of the person they were supposedly trying to help. IF there WAS such a person, they would be displaying a lack of humility and too much pride. Yet a REAL spiritual giant would never brag about their own intelligence or spirituality because REAL spiritual giants are humble! So when one one BRAGS about how spiritual they are- they are being prideful But being prideful is itself a sin- so those who brag are committing a sin while bragging about how much of a spiritual giant they are- but the fact that they are BRAGGING shows that they are NOT a spiritual giant at all.!! It's like saying "I am the most humble person in the world!" That is bragging about being humble!!! That is a contradiction, isn't it? So that is what I meant by the part that talks about " people who have enough ego to put down other people's spirituality, thereby displaying their own pride and lack of humility" So those people, instead of actually BEING humble, are actually bragging BY PRETENDING to be humble and spiritual. Get it? Now on to the rest Just by BEING that way- prideful and bragging and showing false humility- THAT ALONE shows others that the person is "misguided" and NOT what he says he is. Does that help? 2
Tacenda Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 9 minutes ago, pogi said: There will always be unknowns, dilemmas, and mysteries as we wrestle with angels. It doesn't shake my faith. I am confident in my relationship with God and place in the church. But this dilemma does make one wonder - how confident should I be? Confident enough to kill if I felt so inspired? There is a fine balance between being faithful to our perceptions and leaving enough room to question them. Ahab, for example, thinks that it is a sign of weak faith to question your perception if you perceive God as telling you to do something . I think it is a sign of spiritual prudence and maturity. This is why I love the board so much! You aren't alone, I believe.
let’s roll Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 10 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Yet a REAL spiritual giant would never brag about their own intelligence or spirituality because REAL spiritual giants are humble This. And the spiritual giants I have encountered have never tried to give me answers but rather invited me to seek those answers from Deity and suggested ways I might approach Deity and prepare myself to receive the answers that would come from heaven. 2
mfbukowski Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 17 hours ago, Meadowchik said: No thanks. If you wanna make an argument, do it yourself. In any case, I do not want a world where it's okay to decide to kill the way Nephi did. I think that type of behaviour is knowledge-stopping, not knowledge expanding, and I certainly don't think it opens us up spiritually to the infinite unknown. Just my opinion, though Do it myself? I am not a physicist and surely you think that not everyone has to know everything known about everything so one can make all arguments based on their own experience. You speak of knowledge and then ignore the pooled intelligence of all mankind by asking one to "do it yourself". And YOU speak of "knowledge stopping"? While demanding no use of sources outside your own personal knowledge? Think about that next time you cite a source. The story of Nephi makes the Book of Mormon possible, and clearly the knowledge available therein justifies belief in the story if it happened or not. Just my opinion though. Edited July 15, 2020 by mfbukowski
CV75 Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 1 hour ago, Meadowchik said: Then forgiveness is another thread altogether. But, as you said, it's still a good question! Posted 1 hour ago
CV75 Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 Fellow posters: I have a question: Should Laban be forgiven by those who condemn him? Should Nephi be forgiven by those who condemn him?
ksfisher Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, CV75 said: Fellow posters: I have a question: Should Laban be forgiven by those who condemn him? Should Nephi be forgiven by those who condemn him? I think we're asked to forgive those who've sinned against us. I don't see any of Laban's sins as being against me, therefore there's nothing to forgive. I believe that Nephi's actions were commanded by God, therefore there is no sin and no forgiveness required by anyone.
Meadowchik Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 13 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: Do it myself? I am not a physicist and surely you think that not everyone has to know everything known about everything so one can make all arguments based on their own experience. You speak of knowledge and then ignore the pooled intelligence of all mankind by asking one to "do it yourself". And YOU speak of "knowledge stopping"? While demanding no use of sources outside your own personal knowledge? Think about that next time you cite a source. Yes, use your words and make the point yourself, because this is a conversation. I don't "ignore the pooled intelligence of all mankind" by not accepting your request to go Google as a valid argument. I did not "demand no use of sources," either, and you did not offer a source. 22 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: The story of Nephi makes the Book of Mormon possible, and clearly the knowledge available therein justifies belief in the story if it happened or not. Just my opinion though. If the Book of Mormon has valuable knowledge, I would think that knowledge would be found through genuine analysis, not uncritical acceptance of everything in it.
ksfisher Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 5 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: If the Book of Mormon has valuable knowledge, I would think that knowledge would be found through genuine analysis, not uncritical acceptance of everything in it. How will genuine analysis help you know whether or not over 2500 years ago in Jerusalem Nephi was commanded by God to slay Laban or not? How do you analyze whether or not someone received revelation?
Meadowchik Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 4 minutes ago, ksfisher said: How will genuine analysis help you know whether or not over 2500 years ago in Jerusalem Nephi was commanded by God to slay Laban or not? How do you analyze whether or not someone received revelation? How about asking the question more relevant to my statement? What about, "How will genuine analysis help you find any valuable knowledge if it is in the Book of Mormon?"
ksfisher Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, Meadowchik said: How about asking the question more relevant to my statement? What about, "How will genuine analysis help you find any valuable knowledge if it is in the Book of Mormon?" So you're answering my question by telling me to ask a different question?
Meadowchik Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 1 minute ago, ksfisher said: So you're answering my question by telling me to ask a different question? Yes. You're question already has some assumptions in it, so I'd rather start from a point of common ground without the assumptions built into your question.
ksfisher Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 2 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: Yes. You're question already has some assumptions in it, so I'd rather start from a point of common ground without the assumptions built into your question. What are my assumptions? If it's that the events in the Book of Mormon really did take place?
CV75 Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: How about asking the question more relevant to my statement? What about, "How will genuine analysis help you find any valuable knowledge if it is in the Book of Mormon?" The question is relevant to your response to "the story of Nephi" here: Posted 32 minutes ago , where the "valuable knowledge" -- and you didn't say "any" the first time -- is knowledge that justifies belief in the story, just as my question was relevant to your divine spiritual experience about the story, but you chose to deflect that question as well. Edited July 15, 2020 by CV75
Meadowchik Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 17 minutes ago, CV75 said: The question is relevant to your response to "the story of Nephi" here: Posted 32 minutes ago , where the "valuable knowledge" -- and you didn't say "any" the first time -- is knowledge that justifies belief in the story, just as my question was relevant to your divine spiritual experience about the story, but you chose to deflect that question as well. Sure, the question is relevant, but much less relevant to me because of its built-in assumptions. Those assumptions make it much harder for me to answer the question clearly, and I'd rather avoid confusion if possible. Also, I did not call my spiritual experience "divine," but said, "I think I have more right to reject Nephi's decision process to kill than Nephi has to use it to kill. This I think and feel, in my spirit, mind, and heart. It is definitely a spiritual experience for me, and imo much closer to anything divine than what he did in that moment." I am a no-longer believing Mormon who is now an agnostic atheist. I do not believe in God or that the Book of Mormon is from God. But my agnosticism allows for the possibility of God. And so I have ideas about what God might be like if God exists, but not enough to call an experience divine. If you're referring to your question about forgiveness, it is also difficult to answer, but did respond with hopefully the closest answer I can give you to the question. 39 minutes ago, ksfisher said: What are my assumptions? If it's that the events in the Book of Mormon really did take place? You asked: 1 hour ago, ksfisher said: How will genuine analysis help you know whether or not over 2500 years ago in Jerusalem Nephi was commanded by God to slay Laban or not? How do you analyze whether or not someone received revelation? The built-in assumptions that stand out to me are that God exists and that revelation exists. I'm coming from a different point of view. The Book of Mormon concerns me and impacts me still, although I do not believe in it. However, as I have said before, I think that The Book of Mormon was not written to be accepted uncritically. I do not think Moroni demanded that.
Calm Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 14 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: am a no-longer believing Mormon who is now an agnostic atheist You have probably answered this before, but my memory isn’t that great. What is spirituality for an atheist? (Actual question, not a challenge)
mrmarklin Posted July 15, 2020 Posted July 15, 2020 23 minutes ago, Meadowchik said: I am a no-longer believing Mormon who is now an agnostic atheist. That's right Meadowchik, keep that God door open. You're a fraud.
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