Whodathunkit - Little Old Provo

[alter idem]

15 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Over coronavirus? Happened in March. 
 

Or are you talking about something else? Link?

 

This state of emergency was for the violent protests on Thursday.  It made the national news media.  The violence was in response to a decision to exonerate police for the killing of an armed man in May. The mayor made a statement condemning the violence.

[alter idem]

14 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Sullivan has been quoted from news media interviews in which he has endeavored (falsely, in my view) to cast victims in the role of villains, accusing illegally detained motorists of “attempting to run people over” and such. I’m gratified to see that this arrest has been made. 

That is answer to one of my questions,  the protestors were illegally blocking the roads, the driver who was shot had the right of way. 

The state of emergency and crack down on protestors is because of what happened Thursday July 9th. Impromptu protests illegally blocking roads in downtown slc, vandalizing the district attorney office. They are figuring out you don't let these riots run their course,  imo.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, alter idem said:

That is answer to one of my questions,  the protestors were illegally blocking the roads, the driver who was shot had the right of way. 

The state of emergency and crack down on protestors is because of what happened Thursday July 9th. Impromptu protests illegally blocking roads in downtown slc, vandalizing the district attorney office. They are figuring out you don't let these riots run their course,  imo.

The notion on the part of public officials that they can tell police to stand down and tolerate a certain degree of lawlessness while they wait for the anger of the mob to burn itself out has been shown in recent days to be foolish. It only gets worse. The moment a protest crosses the line into criminal behavior is the moment arrests should begin. 
 

Even setting aside the vandalism and terrorizing that attends it, mobs  blocking traffic is much more serious than merely inconveniencing people. It presents a grave threat to public safety as emergency vehicles and even motorists in their own vehicles are hindered from getting to hospital emergency rooms and urgent care facilities. 
 

And, of course, when they endeavor to carry it out with violence, brandishing or using firearms, etc., it becomes so much worse. As we saw in Provo, it very nearly resulted in a homicide. Rioters who engage in it should immediately be rounded up and taken off the streets. 

Edited July 11, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Rajah Manchou]

7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And, of course, when they endeavor to carry it out with violence, brandishing or using firearms, etc.,

I noticed an interesting thing in the counter-protests that happened the day after the shooting. 

If you don't know about the Boogaloo movement, here's a summary:

The boogaloo movement, adherents of which are often referred to as boogaloo boys or boogaloo bois, is a loosely organized American far-right extremist movement. The movement has also been described as a militia. Participants often identify themselves as libertarian and say they are preparing for, or seek to incite, a second American Civil War, which they call the "boogaloo"

They are often identified by their attire of Hawaiian shirts and military fatigues, and are heavily armed. Adherents use the term boogaloo to refer to violent insurrection against the federal government or left-wing political opponents, often anticipated to follow government confiscation of firearms. Members of boogaloo groups typically believe in accelerationism, and support any action that will speed impending civil war and eventually the collapse of society

Since 2019, at least ten people affiliated with the boogaloo movement have been charged with crimes, including disruption related to the George Floyd protests and the killings of two security and law enforcement officers.

What you see on the left is a Boogaloo Boy, or perhaps several Boogaloo Boys, in Provo protesting what?

Edited July 12, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[smac97]

On 7/11/2020 at 7:42 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

I noticed an interesting thing in the counter-protests that happened the day after the shooting. 

If you don't know about the Boogaloo movement, here's a summary:

The boogaloo movement, adherents of which are often referred to as boogaloo boys or boogaloo bois, is a loosely organized American far-right extremist movement. The movement has also been described as a militia. Participants often identify themselves as libertarian and say they are preparing for, or seek to incite, a second American Civil War, which they call the "boogaloo"

They are often identified by their attire of Hawaiian shirts and military fatigues, and are heavily armed. Adherents use the term boogaloo to refer to violent insurrection against the federal government or left-wing political opponents, often anticipated to follow government confiscation of firearms. Members of boogaloo groups typically believe in accelerationism, and support any action that will speed impending civil war and eventually the collapse of society

Since 2019, at least ten people affiliated with the boogaloo movement have been charged with crimes, including disruption related to the George Floyd protests and the killings of two security and law enforcement officers.

What you see on the left is a Boogaloo Boy, or perhaps several Boogaloo Boys, in Provo protesting what?

Did these men self-identify as being identified with the "Boogaloo" movement?

I've been having an email discussion with a member of the Provo City Council (I live in Provo).  Here is an excerpt that touches on the armed citizens that showed up on July 1 in Provo:

Quote

> Hopefully that answers some of your questions. People deserve the right to peacefully protest, and people deserve the right to live in a safe city. We must ensure that everyone in Provo is safe and protected, and that those inflicting violence on others are held accountable. I support Provo PD's full investigation into Monday night’s events.

==So do I.  I also support the right of citizens to exercise their Second Amendment rights when the government fails to maintain law and order, which is what happened in spectacular fashion on June 29.

==Philosophically, I share your apparent concern about untrained citizenry.  Although I think their presence materially discouraged the protesters from getting violent again, things could have gone sideways pretty easily.  The citizens, though acting lawfully, had no command structure, no rules of engagement, no training.  

==However, I am substantially more concerned about lawless, violent protesters targeting Provo.  Unlike the purely theoretical, unactualized harm the armed citizens could have caused or contributed to, the protesters not only did cause actual harm (taking over streets, attacking passing motorists, etc.), they also got away with it.  They got away with breaking the law, apparently several times (since there were, apparently, several unlawful protests).  And the really frustrating thing is that they did all this with the apparent blessing of the powers-that-be in Provo.  

==You quoted the Deputy Mayor as saying: "In the police department’s defense, we’d had about a half dozen protests, from either the same or similar groups, over the last several weeks that went quite smoothly."  Were these protests lawful?  Did the organizers of these protests apply for permits?  Did they comply with noise ordinances, or else seek and obtain an exemption?  Did they submit a medical plan?  A "Road Closure Petition?"  A "Traffic Control Plan?"  Insurance and indemnification agreements?  Did they rent barricades?  Were there time, place and manner restrictions imposed by Provo City?  Were those restrictions observed during these "half dozen protests?"

==I suspect none of this happened.  I suspect Provo City gave these protesters a free pass.  Preferential treatment.  While law-abiding citizens are required to go through a 90-day application and review process, the protesters were given carte blanche to do whatever they wanted.  And whatever they wanted culminated in a violent takeover of the streets of Provo, assaults and menacings of passing motorists, police nowhere to be seen, and an attempted murder.

==The Deputy Mayor allocates blame to the Provo PD ("the police themselves acknowledge that their approach that night was inadequate...").  I think that needs to be investigated.  But I also want to know if anyone else in a position of authority in Provo City gave preferential treatment so as to allow protests to take place in contravention of Provo's laws regarding "special events."  Again, we've all been watching news coverage of local politicians either ignoring or endorsing widespread violent protests, so the concern that such nonfeasance/malfeasance has spread to Provo is not unreasonable.

==In closing, I appreciate you taking time to respond to my email.  While I continue to resent your disparagement of the citizens who showed up on July 1, I think we need to allow for disagreement about such things.  I hope you can, in time, come to appreciate that citizens like myself can oppose racism and bigotry and simultaneously oppose lawless, violent protests.  I invite you to consider this recent article written by Ed Meese, entitled "Mob Violence Must Not Be Tolerated. Hold Accountable and Punish the Wrongdoers."  The three "take aways" from this article are:

1. Orderly protest is part of our American tradition. It is an exercise of our constitutional rights of free speech and peaceable assembly.
2. Violence is not only unacceptable, it's useless as a tool for bring positive social change.
3. We must listen and respond to the voices of pain, offered up in legitimate, peaceful protest.

==I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Meese's remarks here.  I hope we do better in Provo moving forward.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

50 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Did these men self-identify as being identified with the "Boogaloo" movement?

I've been having an email discussion with a member of the Provo City Council (I live in Provo).  Here is an excerpt that touches on the armed citizens that showed up on July 1 in Provo:

Thanks,

-Smac

Reportedly, some property damage was inflicted by the mob on passing motorists. Sullivan, for example, allegedly kicked the door of a vehicle and left a dent after threatening to beat the female driver. 
 

I wonder if citizens who incurred such damage could hold the city liable for its failure to prevent it by enforcing laws such as you have alluded to here. 
 

I agree with your point, by the way, that one can raise all manner of alarms and tu quoque arguments about the threats posed by unregulated armed citizenry rising up in reaction to the riots, or whether they are fanatics or belong to this group or that group, but the fact of the matter is that at present, the only actual violence and law breaking that has occurred locally has been on the part of mobs appertaining to the Black Lives Matter movement. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Reportedly, some property damage was inflicted by the mob on passing motorists. Sullivan, for example, allegedly kicked the side of a vehicle and left a dent after threatening to beat the female driver. 

Sullivan was quoted by Fox 13 as follows: "We were all intent {on} going out to be peaceful and just, um, voice our opinion on how racial discrimination is wrong and how people should be treated fairly and equally, no matter what skin color they are."

Where are these reports about Sullivan?

7 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I wonder if citizens who incurred such damage could hold the city liable for its failure to prevent it by enforcing laws such as you have alluded to here. 

That's an interesting question.  I don't know the answer offhand.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Sullivan was quoted by Fox 13 as follows: "We were all intent {on} going out to be peaceful and just, um, voice our opinion on how racial discrimination is wrong and how people should be treated fairly and equally, no matter what skin color they are."

Where are these reports about Sullivan?

That's an interesting question.  I don't know the answer offhand.

Thanks,

-Smac

See my post in this thread from last Friday in which I quoted the KSL report about the arrest of Sullivan. It included this text from a police affidavit:

“The protest traveled on the roadways blocking motorists who have the right of way. John Sullivan blocked vehicles from freely moving lawfully. During the course of theprotest, two handguns were brandished and two shots fired toward a motorist traveling to Home Depot.Vehicles were damaged by protesters as well as by John Sullivan,’ the affidavit states.

“‘As a protest organizer John Sullivan is heard and seen as he is promoting protesters to block roadways, keeping motorists from traveling lawfully and freely.’

Sullivan was also captured on video threatening to beat a woman in an SUV, according to the affidavit, and then kicking her door, leaving a dent.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

but the fact of the matter is that at present, the only violence and law breaking that has occurred locally has been on the part of mobs appertaining to the Black Lives Matter movement. 

Fact is, there are bad actors on both sides of the political spectrum that are violent. Within the past two months, Salt Lake City and nearly every state bordering Utah has witnessed cases of this Boogaloo movement party-crashing the BLM protests through pre-meditated violence:

Nevada (May 2020): "Three Nevada men with ties to a loose movement of right-wing extremists advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government have been arrested on terrorism-related charges in what authorities say was a conspiracy to spark violence during recent protests in Las Vegas....The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Las Vegas on Wednesday said they self-identified as part of the “boogaloo” movement, which U.S. prosecutors said in the document is “a term used by extremists to signify coming civil war and/or fall of civilization....They wanted to use the momentum from riots occurring nationwide because of Floyd’s death “to hopefully stir enough confusion and excitement, that others see the explosions and police presence and begin to riot in the streets out of anger,” the complaint said." (source)

California (June 2020): In late May and early June 2020, two ambush-style attacks occurred against security personnel and law enforcement officers in California. The attacks left two dead and injured three others. "Authorities allege that Carrillo met Justus through a Facebook group associated with Boogaloo, where the two discussed targeting “soup bois,” a term used by the movement’s followers to refer to federal agents. “Let’s boogie,” Justus allegedly responded to Carrillo’s suggestion that they use protests over the police killing of George Floyd as cover for an attack." (source)

New Mexico (June 2020): Armed members of the New Mexico Civil Guard attended a protest, nominally as "peacekeepers." Several members of the group were detained after someone shot a protestor. The group has denied that the shooter was a member of the group, and members have not been charged with any offenses. (source) The governor and the mayor condemned the group; the governor said in part: “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘Civil Guard’ were there for one reason: to menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force.” The mayor mentioned the group, saying that these militia or vigilante groups attempt to prop up white supremacy and intimidate protesters. (source)

Colorado (June 2020): A Colorado man who identifies with an anti-government group preparing for a civil war said police “stole” several of his guns when he went to Friday’s protest in Denver in response to the in-custody death of George Floyd...McGee identifies with the “Boogaloo” movement, which aims to prepare for a civil and race war....The image of the police seizure includes three assault rifles, handguns, gas masks, tactical vests and ammunition. (source) Earlier this month, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security issued an alert that said a white supremacist group was inciting followers to shoot through their doors at FBI agents and police officers, federal prosecutors wrote in a court filing. The warning related to “associates” of Bradley Bunn, a 53-year-old U.S. Army veteran who was arrested on May 1 after FBI agents allegedly found four pipe bombs at his house in Loveland, Colorado, the filing said. (source)

Salt Lake City (June 2020): Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Sunday tweeted an Associated Press photo showing two white men atop an overturned police car in Salt Lake City, both holding what appear to be assault rifles. Spray painted on the side of the car is “4 George,” an apparent reference to George Floyd, the unarmed African American whose killing at the hands of Minneapolis police last month sparked the recent unrest. One of the men standing on the vehicle in the photograph was wearing what appeared to be hunting garb. The other was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, as was a third man filming the activity." (source)

Cases where Boogaloos are present, but not violent:

Salt Lake City (May 2020): "Meanwhile, a couple of armed men stood at one street corner, saying they were protecting protesters. At least one of these men was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, an outfit commonly associated with the far-right Boogaloo movement. (source)

Provo (July 2020): Some guy shows up with guns at an armed protest in a Hawaiian shirt. Highly unlikely that he was unaware of the symbolism.

Edited July 13, 2020 by Rajah Manchou

[Tacenda]

11 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Fact is, within the past two months, Salt Lake City and nearly every state bordering Utah has witnessed cases of this Boogaloo movement party-crashing the BLM protests through pre-meditated violence:

Nevada (May 2020): "Three Nevada men with ties to a loose movement of right-wing extremists advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government have been arrested on terrorism-related charges in what authorities say was a conspiracy to spark violence during recent protests in Las Vegas....The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Las Vegas on Wednesday said they self-identified as part of the “boogaloo” movement, which U.S. prosecutors said in the document is “a term used by extremists to signify coming civil war and/or fall of civilization....They wanted to use the momentum from riots occurring nationwide because of Floyd’s death “to hopefully stir enough confusion and excitement, that others see the explosions and police presence and begin to riot in the streets out of anger,” the complaint said." (source)

California (June 2020): In late May and early June 2020, two ambush-style attacks occurred against security personnel and law enforcement officers in California. The attacks left two dead and injured three others. "Authorities allege that Carrillo met Justus through a Facebook group associated with Boogaloo, where the two discussed targeting “soup bois,” a term used by the movement’s followers to refer to federal agents. “Let’s boogie,” Justus allegedly responded to Carrillo’s suggestion that they use protests over the police killing of George Floyd as cover for an attack." (source)

New Mexico (June 2020): Armed members of the New Mexico Civil Guard attended a protest, nominally as "peacekeepers." Several members of the group were detained after someone shot a protestor. The group has denied that the shooter was a member of the group, and members have not been charged with any offenses. (source) The governor and the mayor condemned the group; the governor said in part: “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘Civil Guard’ were there for one reason: to menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force.” The mayor mentioned the group, saying that these militia or vigilante groups attempt to prop up white supremacy and intimidate protesters. (source)

Colorado (June 2020): A Colorado man who identifies with an anti-government group preparing for a civil war said police “stole” several of his guns when he went to Friday’s protest in Denver in response to the in-custody death of George Floyd...McGee identifies with the “Boogaloo” movement, which aims to prepare for a civil and race war....The image of the police seizure includes three assault rifles, handguns, gas masks, tactical vests and ammunition. (source) Earlier this month, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security issued an alert that said a white supremacist group was inciting followers to shoot through their doors at FBI agents and police officers, federal prosecutors wrote in a court filing. The warning related to “associates” of Bradley Bunn, a 53-year-old U.S. Army veteran who was arrested on May 1 after FBI agents allegedly found four pipe bombs at his house in Loveland, Colorado, the filing said. (source)

Salt Lake City (June 2020): Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Sunday tweeted an Associated Press photo showing two white men atop an overturned police car in Salt Lake City, both holding what appear to be assault rifles. Spray painted on the side of the car is “4 George,” an apparent reference to George Floyd, the unarmed African American whose killing at the hands of Minneapolis police last month sparked the recent unrest. One of the men standing on the vehicle in the photograph was wearing what appeared to be hunting garb. The other was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, as was a third man filming the activity." (source)

Cases where Boogaloos are present, but not violent:

Salt Lake City (May 2020): "Meanwhile, a couple of armed men stood at one street corner, saying they were protecting protesters. At least one of these men was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, an outfit commonly associated with the far-right Boogaloo movement. (source)

Provo (July 2020): Some guy shows up with guns at an armed protest in a Hawaiian shirt. Highly unlikely that he was unaware of the symbolism.

Wow thanks Rajah, hadn't known this.

[Rajah Manchou]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

Did these men self-identify as being identified with the "Boogaloo" movement?

If you wear guns and a Hawaiian shirt to a BLM protest, you are almost certainly self-identifying with the "Boogaloo" movement. See above references.

[Storm Rider]

17 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Fact is, there are bad actors on both sides of the political spectrum that are violent. Within the past two months, Salt Lake City and nearly every state bordering Utah has witnessed cases of this Boogaloo movement party-crashing the BLM protests through pre-meditated violence:

Nevada (May 2020): "Three Nevada men with ties to a loose movement of right-wing extremists advocating the overthrow of the U.S. government have been arrested on terrorism-related charges in what authorities say was a conspiracy to spark violence during recent protests in Las Vegas....The complaint filed in U.S. District Court in Las Vegas on Wednesday said they self-identified as part of the “boogaloo” movement, which U.S. prosecutors said in the document is “a term used by extremists to signify coming civil war and/or fall of civilization....They wanted to use the momentum from riots occurring nationwide because of Floyd’s death “to hopefully stir enough confusion and excitement, that others see the explosions and police presence and begin to riot in the streets out of anger,” the complaint said." (source)

California (June 2020): In late May and early June 2020, two ambush-style attacks occurred against security personnel and law enforcement officers in California. The attacks left two dead and injured three others. "Authorities allege that Carrillo met Justus through a Facebook group associated with Boogaloo, where the two discussed targeting “soup bois,” a term used by the movement’s followers to refer to federal agents. “Let’s boogie,” Justus allegedly responded to Carrillo’s suggestion that they use protests over the police killing of George Floyd as cover for an attack." (source)

New Mexico (June 2020): Armed members of the New Mexico Civil Guard attended a protest, nominally as "peacekeepers." Several members of the group were detained after someone shot a protestor. The group has denied that the shooter was a member of the group, and members have not been charged with any offenses. (source) The governor and the mayor condemned the group; the governor said in part: “The heavily armed individuals who flaunted themselves at the protest, calling themselves a ‘Civil Guard’ were there for one reason: to menace protesters, to present an unsanctioned show of unregulated force.” The mayor mentioned the group, saying that these militia or vigilante groups attempt to prop up white supremacy and intimidate protesters. (source)

Colorado (June 2020): A Colorado man who identifies with an anti-government group preparing for a civil war said police “stole” several of his guns when he went to Friday’s protest in Denver in response to the in-custody death of George Floyd...McGee identifies with the “Boogaloo” movement, which aims to prepare for a civil and race war....The image of the police seizure includes three assault rifles, handguns, gas masks, tactical vests and ammunition. (source) Earlier this month, the U.S. Department of Homeland Security issued an alert that said a white supremacist group was inciting followers to shoot through their doors at FBI agents and police officers, federal prosecutors wrote in a court filing. The warning related to “associates” of Bradley Bunn, a 53-year-old U.S. Army veteran who was arrested on May 1 after FBI agents allegedly found four pipe bombs at his house in Loveland, Colorado, the filing said. (source)

Salt Lake City (June 2020): Sen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) on Sunday tweeted an Associated Press photo showing two white men atop an overturned police car in Salt Lake City, both holding what appear to be assault rifles. Spray painted on the side of the car is “4 George,” an apparent reference to George Floyd, the unarmed African American whose killing at the hands of Minneapolis police last month sparked the recent unrest. One of the men standing on the vehicle in the photograph was wearing what appeared to be hunting garb. The other was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, as was a third man filming the activity." (source)

Cases where Boogaloos are present, but not violent:

Salt Lake City (May 2020): "Meanwhile, a couple of armed men stood at one street corner, saying they were protecting protesters. At least one of these men was wearing a Hawaiian shirt, an outfit commonly associated with the far-right Boogaloo movement. (source)

Provo (July 2020): Some guy shows up with guns at an armed protest in a Hawaiian shirt. Highly unlikely that he was unaware of the symbolism.

I own about ten Tommy Bahama Hawaiian shirts. I have been doing so for about twelve years now.  I know a lot of ex-military guys from special forces and they all seem to wear them also. Does that make us part of this group?  I don't think so.  This is what is known as profiling. 

Edited July 13, 2020 by Storm Rider

[Rajah Manchou]

Just now, Storm Rider said:

I own about ten Tommy Bahama Hawaiian shirts. I have been doing so for about twelve years now.  I know a lot of ex-military guys from special forces and they all seem to wear them also. Does that make us part of this group?  I don't think so.  

I don't think so either.

But I own about 20 red bandanas and you won't find me wearing them into central LA at night.

Likewise, I wouldn't recommend you wear any of your Tommy Bahama to an armed BLM protest. You'd be sending the wrong message.

[smac97]

32 minutes ago, Rajah Manchou said:

If you wear guns and a Hawaiian shirt to a BLM protest, you are almost certainly self-identifying with the "Boogaloo" movement. See above references.

I agree on the "Hawaiian shirt" part.  That's a pretty distinctive sartorial choice (and it appears to be a riff on "Boogaloo" ("Big Luau")).  But wearing "military fatigues" is far more ambiguous, IMO.  Plenty of former military guys, or even those with no prior military experience at all, have "military fatigues."  That doesn't make them Boogaloo boys.  The pictures you provided seem to show one guy who is wearing a Hawaiian shirt.  

Moreover, no news accounts of the July 1 protest in Provo references the Boogaloo movement.  Instead, an armed group styling itself as "Keepers of Liberty" are referenced (see, e.g., here and here).  From the second link:

Quote

But before that, Sullivan and other event organizers yelled into a bullhorn at the handful of counter-protesters that remained on the opposite street corner of 300 West and Center Street. He asked if anyone wanted to say something, to address the crowd, free of retribution and with the utmost safety in mind after more than three hours of protests.

Wednesday’s demonstration was, after all, a free speech zone protected by the First Amendment, and so it was only fair.

So John Fitzpatrick, a member of the nascent militia group Keepers of Liberty who attended the rally, stepped forward and began walking to the crowd. A few hesitated to let him pass, likely because of the firearm strapped to his back. But at the behest of group organizers, they ushered him and his friend Tyler Warner to the front of the crowd of just over 100 individuals.

And as Fitzpatrick tried to scale the 5-foot retaining wall in front of the Provo police station, he slipped. Whether because of the 70 pounds of gear and body armor he wore, the firearm nearly the length of his wingspan, or simply because he lost his footing, Fitzpatrick started to fall.

One protester reached down and caught him — then hoisted him up, gear and all.

The two embraced. The crowd cheered.

"That guy that I hugged, he didn’t have to give me a hug. We have a virus going around … and he could’ve had a valid reason to turn it down. But he didn’t," Fitzpatrick said.

"I think that right there said more about unity than anything that anybody could’ve said. We’ve got Proud Boys here, unjustly labeled as white supremacists, and they were invited to speak. That’s more important than me speaking."

Thanks,

-Smac

[bsjkki]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I don't think so either.

But I own about 20 red bandanas and you won't find me wearing them into central LA at night.

Likewise, I wouldn't recommend you wear any of your Tommy Bahama to an armed BLM protest. You'd be sending the wrong message.

Most people are still completely unaware of  the Boogaloo movement. It's only the news junkies or extremists who are aware. I had never heard of them until the riots and looting. But, all of this chaos triggers the left and right fringe groups. Both should be held in contempt. They're both anarchists groups coming at it from the two extremes.

[LoudmouthMormon]

So, I'm not much of a flag-waving militia-friendly zealous patriot, but I have hung out with a few on this or that website and forum for two decades now.  The first time I ever heard of the boogaloo movement, was when people on the left started shouting about it.  Whatever it is, I'd say the thing it is the most, is over-emphasized by folks from the left.

Case in point - my uncle was part of the (as he put it) 300 armed citizens that showed up to help the police maintain order.  He was happily facebooking away during the event, particularly of him in front of the temple.  He's certainly not part of any boogaloo movement.

[LoudmouthMormon]

2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

If you wear guns and a Hawaiian shirt to a BLM protest, you are almost certainly self-identifying with the "Boogaloo" movement. See above references.

Heh.   CHAZ/CHOP cops:

And my personal favorite:

[USU78]

1 hour ago, smac97 said:

I agree on the "Hawaiian shirt" part.  That's a pretty distinctive sartorial choice (and it appears to be a riff on "Boogaloo" ("Big Luau")).  But wearing "military fatigues" is far more ambiguous, IMO.  Plenty of former military guys, or even those with no prior military experience at all, have "military fatigues."  That doesn't make them Boogaloo boys.  The pictures you provided seem to show one guy who is wearing a Hawaiian shirt.  

Moreover, no news accounts of the July 1 protest in Provo references the Boogaloo movement.  Instead, an armed group styling itself as "Keepers of Liberty" are referenced (see, e.g., here and here).  From the second link:

Thanks,

-Smac

Boogaloo is a particular dance step from the mid to late '60s: 

 

[MiserereNobis]

4 hours ago, smac97 said:

==You quoted the Deputy Mayor as saying: "In the police department’s defense, we’d had about a half dozen protests, from either the same or similar groups, over the last several weeks that went quite smoothly."  Were these protests lawful?  Did the organizers of these protests apply for permits?  Did they comply with noise ordinances, or else seek and obtain an exemption?  Did they submit a medical plan?  A "Road Closure Petition?"  A "Traffic Control Plan?"  Insurance and indemnification agreements?  Did they rent barricades?  Were there time, place and manner restrictions imposed by Provo City?  Were those restrictions observed during these "half dozen protests?"

I'm trying to ascertain general principles here. Do you believe that non-violent civil disobedience is ever acceptable? (I'm not talking about the violent protest in Provo, so bringing up what happened in Provo, or rioting, would be a red herring to my question).

You bring up a pretty heavy list to go through to have a protest. One might say it almost infringes on the right to peaceably assemble. Medical plans? Insurance and indemnification agreements?

Do you think that the leaders, including MLK, of the protest march from Selma to Montgomery should have gone through this list? Should they have listened to Governor Wallace telling them not to march? Should they have followed the court injunction not to march? Should they have followed the police orders to disperse before they were savagely attacked?

I brought this up earlier, and no one really engaged me in it. I also brought up the heavy focus many posts have had on impeding traffic, right of way, etc. Is it ever ok for a non-violent protest to block a traffic? (Governor Wallace cited traffic concerns as a reason for not allowing the Selma march). Gandhi and King both said that the purpose of non-violent civil disobedience (Gandhi called it non-cooperation) was to create tension and to provoke a response in order to draw attention to an issue. Blocking a street does that, but on a pretty minor level in my opinion. Should police monitoring a protest arrest the protestors when they step into the street?

In my city, the police chose not to when the protestors blocked some intersections and knelt for 9 minutes. The police already had in place a contingency plan if such a thing were to occur, and instead rerouted traffic around those intersections. Did it inconvenience some drivers? Probably, but not much because the police were already prepared and instead of arresting protestors (which would have blocked traffic anyways), they allowed them an act of civil disobedience to express themselves. A much better policy, in my opinion.

Again, does non-violent civil disobedience have a place?

[USU78]

I may have just found some motivation for Provo City and other governmental entities' failure to do much about riots, etc.

From Utah's Governmental Immunity Act, Section 63G-7-201:

(4) A governmental entity, its officers, and its employees are immune from suit, and immunity is not waived, for any injury proximately caused by a negligent act or omission of an employee committed within the scope of employment, if the injury arises out of or in connection with, or results from:  *     *     *

(g) a riot, unlawful assembly, public demonstration, mob violence, or civil disturbance;  *     *     *

The theory, I'm guessing, is that government needn't be held responsible for damage/injury caused where something like a riot is illegal, even if damage/injury is foreseeable.

Pretty nice trick:  the purpose of people banding together and establishing cities and states is to provide protection.  The city/state gets to fail in its performance of its side of the civil contract with absolute impunity. 

[smac97]

4 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

If you wear guns and a Hawaiian shirt to a BLM protest, you are almost certainly self-identifying with the "Boogaloo" movement. See above references.

Okay.  But I saw one guy in the pics you provided answering to that.  Maybe

 

[Amulek]

4 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

If you wear guns and a Hawaiian shirt to a BLM protest, you are almost certainly self-identifying with the "Boogaloo" movement.

Goodness. I hope there's never a BLM protest outside of a Jimmy Buffett concert then. 

 

[USU78]

1 minute ago, Amulek said:

Goodness. I hope there's never a BLM protest outside of a Jimmy Buffett concert then. 

Wastin' away.

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Again, does non-violent civil disobedience have a place?

I'm totally fine with it...so long as those who are intentionally breaking the law in order to send their political message are also willing to peaceably accept the consequences of their actions (e.g., forcible removal, arrest, etc.). 

 

[MiserereNobis]

12 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I'm totally fine with it...so long as those who are intentionally breaking the law in order to send their political message are also willing to peaceably accept the consequences of their actions (e.g., forcible removal, arrest, etc.). 

 

Yes, I feel like that is part and parcel of civil disobedience. You don't fight back when the law comes for you. Gandhi and MLK used that to great effect -- people saw the difference between the peaceful protestors not resisting arrest and the police brutally attacking them anyway. It made a good moral case how far one side was willing to go to protect the status quo.