Amulek Posted July 24, 2020 Posted July 24, 2020 4 hours ago, The Nehor said: On 7/20/2020 at 5:18 PM, Amulek said: Why? Because police just can't help themselves from shooting black teenagers - especially those who call for assistance? For far too many.....unironically yes. Really? If you can find a recent example of a black person calling the police for help and ending up being shot themselves I would love to see it. I would think that such stories would be more widely reported, yet I can't think of a single one in recent memory. Quote I would have decided the same way as the jury. There was reasonable doubt. That being said I would find him morally culpable for the death even if I could not legally. Personally, I don't think he was morally culpable either - though I can understand why people might think differently. Quote When I read over the trial I laughed at the testimony that there was enough marijuana to be "impaired". I work in drug testing. No. The fact that trace amounts of marijuana were found in Martin's system (which, I agree, was completely negligible) was never presented to the jury. The only people who knew about it were the public, the lawyers, and the judge who ruled on it being admissible. The defense never actually introduced it as evidence during the trial though.
Calm Posted July 25, 2020 Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) 3 hours ago, Amulek said: If you can find a recent example of a black person calling the police for help and ending up being shot themselves I would love to see it Not the black person herself, but a neighbour calling for a welfare check, iow for police to help the resident: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-50032290 Edited July 25, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted July 25, 2020 Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) From the mother’s POV, a man shot after calling 911 for help....I haven’t been able yet to find out what the alleged argument was about from the officer’s explanation: https://www.wlbt.com/2020/05/30/watch-mother-marc-davis-speaks-petal-protest/ Quote There was no police body camera footage of the incident. Edited July 25, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted July 25, 2020 Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) Quote Brittany Jefferson had just left her grandmother’s house on June 2, 2017, when she stopped at a red light on Evelyn Gandy Parkway in Petal, Miss., and spotted a black man lying on the ground, with two white men and a white Petal police officer next to a blue Buick SUV. A “gut feeling” told her to pull her phone out and start recording, but the white 20-year-old college student decided against it. “It’s probably just a traffic stop or something,” Jefferson thought to herself, figuring the light would turn green before she could even press record. The light remained red, though, and soon the man, who was wearing a white tank top, stood up, his empty hands stretched out to either side. The officer, standing at a distance, drew his pistol and pointed it at him. Jefferson could tell the man was saying something to the officer, but could not make out the words they exchanged through her car windows. Moments later, the man took what looked to her like one small step toward the officer. Three shots rang out. Marc Davis, a 34-year-old father of five from LaPlace, La., fell face-forward onto the ground, minutes after he had been in a car accident and called 911 for help. A doctor at Forrest General Hospital would later pronounce him dead. “Why did you shoot him? We had him,” Bryan Lee, a white man who had helped the officer hold Davis on the ground just before Jefferson pulled up, shouted at Petal Police Officer Aaron Jernigan. The light turned green, and the shocked Jones College student, who had not heard what Lee said, drove away and pulled into the Dirt Cheap parking lot across the highway. Struggling to catch her breath, she called her mother, relaying through sobs the scene she had just witnessed. https://www.mississippifreepress.org/3431/a-petal-police-officer-killed-marc-davis-in-2017-his-family-demands-justice/ Bryan Lee later supported the officer shooting Davis. Edited July 25, 2020 by Calm
Amulek Posted July 25, 2020 Posted July 25, 2020 Quote Federal court documents state that on the day of the shooting, patrol officer Aaron Jernigan arrived at the scene of the accident, where he checked on the people involved, including Davis. Jernigan said Davis was “acting in a strange manner and would not answer if he was ok or needed an ambulance,” and another witness said Davis “was walking around like he was out of it” and “seemed a little aggravated.” Davis continued to walk toward Jernigan, at which point Jernigan moved away and asked Davis to sit down, but Davis did not comply. Davis moved closer and “lunged” at Jernigan, trying to take his firearm. The two fought over the weapon, and Jernigan used his TASER on Davis, but that weapon had no effect. After civilians helped Jernigan remove Davis’ hand from the gun, Jernigan backed up, drew his firearm and aimed it at Davis, ordering him to stay on the ground. Davis got up and “aggressively” advanced toward Jernigan; when Jernigan ordered him to stop, he did not. Jernigan then shot Davis three times. [...] [U.S. District Judge Keith] Starrett’s order states that Jernigan’s use of deadly force was reasonable, as “it is undisputed that Davis physically assaulted Jernigan, attempted to take his firearm, and refused to comply with verbal orders to stand down. … ” https://www.hubcityspokes.com/front-page-slideshow-news-petal/judge-rules-petal-2017-officer-involved-shooting I suppose this technically counts as an incident where a black person called 911 for help and ended up being shot - though I think the fact that he assaulted the police officer who arrived on the scene and tried to get his gun (bystanders who intervened had to pry his hand off it) is a rather significant mitigating factor. Still, I asked for an example and you have provided one. Thank you. I had performed a cursory search previously and wan't coming up with much of anything, let alone enough to think that such an occurrence happens with any degree of regularity. 3
Rajah Manchou Posted July 25, 2020 Posted July 25, 2020 (edited) On 7/25/2020 at 5:14 AM, Amulek said: I had performed a cursory search previously and wan't coming up with much of anything, let alone enough to think that such an occurrence happens with any degree of regularity. The question should be, do black people feel safe calling 911 in the first place? Police Violence and Citizen Crime Reporting in the Black Community "High-profile cases of police violence—disproportionately experienced by black men—may present a serious threat to public safety if they lower citizen crime reporting. Using an interrupted time series design, this study analyzes how one of Milwaukee’s most publicized cases of police violence against an unarmed black man, the beating of Frank Jude, affected police-related 911 calls. Controlling for crime, prior call patterns, and several neighborhood characteristics, we find that residents of Milwaukee’s neighborhoods, especially residents of black neighborhoods, were far less likely to report crime after Jude’s beating was broadcast. The effect lasted for over a year and resulted in a total net loss of approximately 22,200 calls for service. Other local and national cases of police violence against unarmed black men also had a significant impact on citizen crime reporting in Milwaukee. Police misconduct can powerfully suppress one of the most basic forms of civic engagement: calling 911 for matters of personal and public safety." The Frank Jude case that study was based on seems to be a case of black people being beaten by off-duty officers and then, after calling 911, also being beaten by the on-duty officers that arrived. The Beating of Frank JudeWhat follows is an account of the events surrounding the beating of Frank Jude based on news reports and court documents (listed at the end of the article). To understand how these events could have affected citizen crime reporting in Milwaukee, it is necessary to provide a somewhat detailed account of the severity of Jude’s beating and its aftermath. On October 23, 2004, Milwaukee police officer Andrew Spengler hosted a house warming party in a middle-class white neighborhood. Several police officers attended. After 2:30 a.m., Frank Jude and Lovell Harris, both black men, arrived at the party as guests of two female college students. The group of four began to feel uncomfortable and left the party, returning to the truck in which they had arrived. But before they could pull away, at least 10 men surrounded the truck and accused Jude and Harris of stealing Spengler’s police badge. Jude, Harris, and their hosts were pulled from the truck. After having his face slit with a knife, Harris would escape. Jude would not (Diedrich 2005a). Spengler and several other off-duty police officers began beating Jude about the face and torso while another pinned his arms behind his back. When Jude collapsed to the ground, the officers kicked his head. A pair of on-duty officers arrived around 3:00 a.m. (Jude’s female companions had called 911 before partygoers seized their phones.) One uniformed officer, Joseph Schabel, stomped on Jude’s face until he heard bones breaking. The other on-duty officer watched. An offduty officer picked Jude up and kicked him in the crotch with such force his feet left the ground. Another took one of Schabel’s pens and pressed it deep into Jude’s ear canals. Another bent Jude’s fingers back until they snapped. Spengler put a gun to Jude’s head. Jude was left naked from the waist down lying on the street in a pool of his own blood. At 3:09 a.m. other on-duty officers arrived at the scene. Jude was taken by police wagon to the emergency room, where the admitting physician took photographs of him because his injuries were too extensive to document in writing. Spengler’s badge was never recovered. (source) Also:Police Brutality Leads to Thousands Fewer Calls to 911Trust gap: What happens when black communities call 911 less often?What’s your emergency? 911 a different call for black, white Edited July 26, 2020 by Rajah Manchou 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 26, 2020 Posted July 26, 2020 (edited) If I may be permitted to turn this thread back to the subject of the OP as reflected in the thread title, it is now going on a month since the riot and attempted murder in downtown Provo. Perhaps it is time for a bit of stock-taking. As I see it, after an initial misstep in which rioting protesters were for several nights allowed unhindered to violate laws — a neglect that ultimately brought on an unacceptable degree of violence — the authorities moved into action. With an impressive degree of rapidity and aided by Salt Lake police, Provo PD identified, tracked down and apprehended suspects in the violent crimes that were committed in the heart of the city. A visible and overwhelming police presence, this time adequate for the task, prevented subsequent violence. From my perspective, the scene has been tranquil since then. Protesters’ free-speech rights have been preserved but not their license to violate the law. Contrast that with the non-stop violence that has been going on practically unhindered in some of America’s larger cities: Portland, Seattle, New York, Chicago. I recognize circumstances are different between Provo and elsewhere. But it’s hard to escape the conclusion that firm action by police supported by local government is an important part of the equation. Meanwhile, the cries continue to defund or abolish police departments. Edited July 26, 2020 by Scott Lloyd 2
Rajah Manchou Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 Our local story has gone international. This was #3 on my Apple News feed today: The birth of a militia: how an armed group polices Black Lives Matter protests
smac97 Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 On 7/26/2020 at 6:08 AM, Scott Lloyd said: If I may be permitted to turn this thread back to the subject of the OP as reflected in the thread title, it is now going on a month since the riot and attempted murder in downtown Provo. Perhaps it is time for a bit of stock-taking. As I see it, after an initial misstep in which rioting protesters were for several nights allowed unhindered to violate laws — a neglect that ultimately brought on an unacceptable degree of violence — the authorities moved into action. With an impressive degree of rapidity and aided by Salt Lake police, Provo PD identified, tracked down and apprehended suspects in the violent crimes that were committed in the heart of the city. A visible and overwhelming police presence, this time adequate for the task, prevented subsequent violence. From my perspective, the scene has been tranquil since then. Protesters’ free-speech rights have been preserved but not their license to violate the law. Contrast that with the non-stop violence that has been going on practically unhindered in some of America’s larger cities: Portland, Seattle, New York, Chicago. I recognize circumstances are different between Provo and elsewhere. But it’s hard to escape the conclusion that firm action by police supported by local government is an important part of the equation. Meanwhile, the cries continue to defund or abolish police departments. I have received a response back from Provo City regarding my GRAMA requests for communications between the Provo Mayor's Office and the Provo PD pertaining to the protests. I have uploaded the PDFs here: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=43511626921796390530http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05686091205778303865 Thanks, -Smac 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 20 minutes ago, smac97 said: I have received a response back from Provo City regarding my GRAMA requests for communications between the Provo Mayor's Office and the Provo PD pertaining to the protests. I have uploaded the PDFs here: http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=43511626921796390530http://s000.tinyupload.com/?file_id=05686091205778303865 Thanks, -Smac Thanks for the update, Smac.
Scott Lloyd Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 4 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: Our local story has gone international. This was #3 on my Apple News feed today: The birth of a militia: how an armed group polices Black Lives Matter protests The story has real problems. For one thing, it fails to note that a source quoted extensively in the story, John Sullivan, was himself arrested and booked into Utah County Jail for investigation of criminal mischief, rioting and making threats. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/utah/2020/7/10/21320220/organizer-of-provo-protest-arrested-accused-of-rioting-making-threats It depicts the victim of the attempted murder as “driving into the crowd,” when it was more a matter of maneuvering through a mob that was trying to block him from leaving. Also, it claims video shows the crowd was not trying to block the motorists. This is contradicted by the police affidavit quoted in the above link, which says Sullivan was encouraging rioters to do just that. 2
The Nehor Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 On 7/26/2020 at 7:08 AM, Scott Lloyd said: If I may be permitted to turn this thread back to the subject of the OP as reflected in the thread title, it is now going on a month since the riot and attempted murder in downtown Provo. Perhaps it is time for a bit of stock-taking. As I see it, after an initial misstep in which rioting protesters were for several nights allowed unhindered to violate laws — a neglect that ultimately brought on an unacceptable degree of violence — the authorities moved into action. With an impressive degree of rapidity and aided by Salt Lake police, Provo PD identified, tracked down and apprehended suspects in the violent crimes that were committed in the heart of the city. A visible and overwhelming police presence, this time adequate for the task, prevented subsequent violence. From my perspective, the scene has been tranquil since then. Protesters’ free-speech rights have been preserved but not their license to violate the law. Contrast that with the non-stop violence that has been going on practically unhindered in some of America’s larger cities: Portland, Seattle, New York, Chicago. I recognize circumstances are different between Provo and elsewhere. But it’s hard to escape the conclusion that firm action by police supported by local government is an important part of the equation. Meanwhile, the cries continue to defund or abolish police departments. The idea that police in Seattle and Portland are not taking "firm action" is not supportable. I think you will have to look elsewhere for a rationale in the shift. I would also add that Utah police showed, in general (I am aware of some bad Utah incidents), relative humanity to protesters. In cities where unprovoked or disproportionate force was used the protests were exacerbated. This was particularly the case when the force was applied to those not involved in the provoking incident. 1
Ahab Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 47 minutes ago, The Nehor said: The idea that police in Seattle and Portland are not taking "firm action" is not supportable. I think you will have to look elsewhere for a rationale in the shift. I would also add that Utah police showed, in general (I am aware of some bad Utah incidents), relative humanity to protesters. In cities where unprovoked or disproportionate force was used the protests were exacerbated. This was particularly the case when the force was applied to those not involved in the provoking incident. I am seeing entire groups treated as rioting mobs, rather than peaceful protesters, even if only a small portion of the group is not demonstrating peacefully. And I think that makes perfect sense. The police can't watch each person in the group individually to see who threw a rock or a fire bomb and who didn't, so when they see a disturbance they are going to treat the group as a collective body, even if some in the group are peacefully protesting. Some of the peaceful protesters, and others watching, don't seem to understand that, and why that can't be avoided. The Police can only do so much to try to keep the peace. 1
The Nehor Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 10 minutes ago, Ahab said: I am seeing entire groups treated as rioting mobs, rather than peaceful protesters, even if only a small portion of the group is not demonstrating peacefully. And I think that makes perfect sense. The police can't watch each person in the group individually to see who threw a rock or a fire bomb and who didn't, so when they see a disturbance they are going to treat the group as a collective body, even if some in the group are peacefully protesting. Some of the peaceful protesters, and others watching, don't seem to understand that, and why that can't be avoided. The Police can only do so much to try to keep the peace. So to shut down a protest just send a few provocateurs and all is fair? Guilt by association. Of course this excuse falls apart when you start targeting medics and the press who are pretty easy to distinguish. 1
Ahab Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 (edited) 23 minutes ago, The Nehor said: So to shut down a protest just send a few provocateurs and all is fair? Guilt by association. It is just the way things are, because of the mortal limitations police officers have. They can't treat an entire mob as a group of peaceful protesters if some of them are not peaceful. Police officer #42 : Who thew that fire bomb? Police officer #38 : It came from that mob, from over there in that direction. Police officer #43 : Okay who thew that other fire bomb? Police officer #39 : Oh that one came from that same mob, from over there in that other direction. And I now see more fire bombs coming. The police officers then treat that mob as a violent mob rather than as a group of peaceful protesters. Quote Of course this excuse falls apart when you start targeting medics and the press who are pretty easy to distinguish. When in a violent mob it is best to just get out of it rather than stay in it and act surprised if you get hurt when you are in it. Edited July 27, 2020 by Ahab 2
USU78 Posted July 27, 2020 Posted July 27, 2020 Were Joseph and Hyrum murdered by the 10 +/- that could squeeze onto the stairs or by a couple hundred? How many were just "peacefully protesting" the City of Nauvoo's order of abatement of a press? 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, USU78 said: Were Joseph and Hyrum murdered by the 10 +/- that could squeeze onto the stairs or by a couple hundred? How many were just "peacefully protesting" the City of Nauvoo's order of abatement of a press? That’s an interesting point. A mob becomes a vicious organism. Sometimes it can be neutralized by cutting off its head. In a sense, that is what happened in Provo with the arrests of some of the more hateful and violence-prone individuals. That calmed everything down. The Guardian story talked about the rise of the citizen militia being a “chilling effect” on free speech. That strikes me as a manufactured grievance. I’ve yet to see anyone In Utah over the past several weeks advocate the squelching of the free speech of peaceful activists. Edited July 28, 2020 by Scott Lloyd
Rajah Manchou Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 18 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: The Guardian story talked about the rise of the citizen militia being a “chilling effect” on free speech. That strikes me as a manufactured grievance. I’ve yet to see anyone In Utah over the past several weeks advocate the squelching of the free speech of peaceful activists. The "mob" in Carthage was actually a few citizen militias banding together. Those charged with Smith's murder were the leaders of the militias that carried it out. They were acquitted because the Mormons were scared to testify against the local militias.
Calm Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: It depicts the victim of the attempted murder as “driving into the crowd,” when it was more a matter of maneuvering through a mob that was trying to block him from leaving. Also, it claims video shows the crowd was not trying to block the motorists. This is contradicted by the police affidavit quoted in the above link, which says Sullivan was encouraging rioters to do just that. Yeah, having watched other videos, this is inaccurate reporting. I suspect they are wiggling with the use of “linger” rather than “blocking”, having “blocking” meaning to try and permanent stop traffic rather than for however long they were doing it....I didn’t time what I saw, but had to have been several minutes at the least. Wouldn’t be surprised if longer. The video I saw besides the shooting focused on the front of the protest, I believe, and stragglers could have extended the delays. And comparing the driver in Provo to drivers who apparently intentionally drove into crowds is very inappropriate and dangerous imo. He was prior to being shot moving enough he could harm someone refusing to move, but slow enough for them to get out of the way imo. I can see the driver getting death threats even if the reporting was accurate, making an implication of attempted homicide is likely to increase the severity of these. Edited July 28, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said: I’ve yet to see anyone In Utah over the past several weeks advocate the squelching of the free speech of peaceful activists. The article appears to contradict you as Robertson (militia guy) is described as happy a protest didn’t happen, peaceful or not: Quote A protest in Taylorsville was cancelled because too many protesters felt the risk was not worth being there. Robertson took this as a win. I think it is almost a given that seeing civilians decked out in military garb and carrying ridiculous guns that one’s mind would go to a wannabe hero firing into a crowd. Knowing this group is showing up at any protest is going to cause second thoughts about attending, especially if one hears of other protestors arming themselves as well. Being caught between two choices of stupid is not somewhere most reasonable people want to be, imo. Quote In response to Utah Citizens’ Alarm, Utah protesters are now arming themselves. John Sullivan of Insurgence USA held his first armed protest on 22 July at the Utah state capitol, carrying an AR-15 and a magazine of ammo. He is encouraging Insurgence USA protesters to purchase guns so they can protect themselves if there is violence. “Basically, nobody in our group owns a gun except for me; nobody was planning on ever shooting anyone. So the fact that I bought a bulletproof vest and more magazines and our people are buying guns should say a lot. It shouldn’t be that way.” So where did Taggart get his? Or is Sullivan claiming Taggart wasn’t there as part of his group? Taggart’s FB has been removed, so can’t show his past posts advocating for protests Edited July 28, 2020 by Calm 1
Calm Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) Quote Sullivan was also captured on video threatening to beat a woman in an SUV, according to the affidavit, and then kicking her door, leaving a dent. Sullivan was seen with Jesse Taggart — the man charged with shooting the motorist — throughout the protest, the affidavit states. “As a protest organizer, John Sullivan is heard talking about seeing the shooting, looking at the gun and seeing smoke coming from it. John did not condemn the attempted murder nor attempt to stop it nor aide in its investigation by police.” From Scott’s Deseret.com link I didn’t see the first two, but heard the last on one of the videos I watched. Sullivan sounded gleeful to me in how he described it, like a little kid in his excitement. It was disturbing, but I figured he was still on an adrenaline high. What was even more disturbing was later on his claim it was Provo residents who were violence without any reference to it being one of the protestors who shot someone. Not a trustworthy source, imo. Here is a video showing protestors blocking and throwing things: Edited July 28, 2020 by Calm
Calm Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 (edited) This has pictures of blocking cars (light is green) and more complete video of black? SUV incident at the bottom. https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/central/provo/protest-aftermath-police-seeking-information-regarding-shooting-hit-and-run-incidents/article_70804b23-1aca-5931-9a00-db341c41c4eb.html Edited July 28, 2020 by Calm
The Nehor Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: That’s an interesting point. A mob becomes a vicious organism. Sometimes it can be neutralized by cutting off its head. In a sense, that is what happened in Provo with the arrests of some of the more hateful and violence-prone individuals. That calmed everything down. The Guardian story talked about the rise of the citizen militia being a “chilling effect” on free speech. That strikes me as a manufactured grievance. I’ve yet to see anyone In Utah over the past several weeks advocate the squelching of the free speech of peaceful activists. They just want to loom over them with guns. They didn’t actually say they wanted them to stop so we can assume they don’t? When the police fire tear gas into the crowd is it a bridge too far to assume they want the crowd to disperse. Can the “Whittling and Whistling” brigades in Nauvoo be viewed as neutral on the presence and speech of the apostates and troublemakers they shadowed by that same logic? If so the General Authorities are pretty dumb to bring them up as an example of Priesthood courage. Makes what they did dumb and pointless. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 2 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said: The "mob" in Carthage was actually a few citizen militias banding together. Those charged with Smith's murder were the leaders of the militias that carried it out. They were acquitted because the Mormons were scared to testify against the local militias. A mob is a mob.
Rajah Manchou Posted July 28, 2020 Posted July 28, 2020 4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said: A mob is a mob. Thats also what I thought, but some seem to think that there is a leftist mob and that these armed civilian militia types showing up and walking around within the mob are not part of that mob. I disagree, a mob is a mob regardless of who you voted for. 1
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