Whodathunkit - Little Old Provo

[Scott Lloyd]

25 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

They just want to loom over them with guns. They didn’t actually say they wanted them to stop so we can assume they don’t? When the police fire tear gas into the crowd is it a bridge too far to assume they want the crowd to disperse.

Can the “Whittling and Whistling” brigades in Nauvoo be viewed as neutral on the presence and speech of the apostates and troublemakers they shadowed by that same logic? If so the General Authorities are pretty dumb to bring them up as an example of Priesthood courage. Makes what they did dumb and pointless.

Was the point of the “brigade” to intimidate a protest movement in Nauvoo? My understanding was that the purpose was to shadow would-be counterfeiters and other blackguards who were coming into the city intent on committing crimes after the state of Illinois had revoked the Nauvoo City charter, thus depriving the city of authority to enforce its municipal laws and leaving it vulnerable to a criminal element. 
 

I think you are making quite a stretch in drawing this comparison. 

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Was the point of the “brigade” to intimidate a protest movement in Nauvoo? My understanding was that the purpose was to shadow would-be counterfeiters and other blackguards who were coming into the city intent on committing crimes after the state of Illinois had revoked the Nauvoo City charter, thus depriving the city of authority to enforce its municipal laws and leaving it vulnerable to a criminal element. 
 

I think you are making quite a stretch in drawing this comparison. 

No, I am pointing out that one would have to be an idiot to assume that intimidation was not their goal. I am not comparing whether they are equally ethical.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 hours ago, Calm said:

The article appears to contradict you as Robertson (militia guy) is described as happy a protest didn’t happen, peaceful or not:

I frankly don’t trust the Guardian or its reporter on this story, they have shown themselves to be so biased and reckless with the facts. 
 

Maybe Robertson is intent on silencing all protests, peaceable or not. But to believe it, I would need to hear it directly from him, not through the jaundiced filter of some leftist, outsider organ obviously pursuing an agenda and having the story conceptually pre-written before doing any substantive investigation. 
 

Bear in mind Roberson at this point in time was speaking from a frame of mind of there having so recently been a near instance of murder-by-mob in the streets of Provo. He was undoubtedly feeling a sense of satisfaction at possibly having played a part in deterring further violence of the sort we have seen happen in major U.S. cities throughout the summer. 
 

And if Sullivan, organizer of the protest-run-amok in Provo, was the one who organized the postponed protest in Taylorsville, I can hardly blame Robertson for feeling self-satisfied. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Rajah Manchou said:

Thats also what I thought, but some seem to think that there is a leftist mob and that these armed civilian militia types showing up and walking around within the mob are not part of that mob. I disagree, a mob is a mob regardless of who you voted for. 

So the militia types showing up to deter violent acts by the mob are de facto part of the mob?

That does not compute. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

Hopefully this is all the conflict will amount to, but I have concerns it will only increase. 
 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/07/22/more-than-armed-men-show/

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

frankly don’t trust the Guardian or its reporter on this story, they have shown themselves to be so biased and reckless with the facts. 
 

I agree there is enough bias present to want a quote. 
 

Unfortunately the militia group is a private one and see nothing else in the media where Robertson talks about Taylorville, so at this point no confirmation or rebuttal found. 

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, Calm said:

Hopefully this is all the conflict will amount to, but I have concerns it will only increase. 
 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/07/22/more-than-armed-men-show/

I notice that Robertson as quoted here acknowledges the protesters’ right to free speech, even as he affirms his own and others’ right to bear arms.
 

“‘Just as [police protesters] have the right to their First Amendment rights and to exercise that, we have also the Second Amendment, which allows us to bear arms, and yes,” UCA leader Casey Robertson said, “we want to be a deterrent for anyone that wants violence in our communities, and [being armed] is loud and clear deterrent for anyone who wants to destroy, kill, attack, that there are people here who will practice their Second Amendment rights.’”

 

This contradicts your conclusion drawn from the Guardian piece about his motive being to squelch free speech. 
 

By the way, I know from a Facebook post I saw that it wasn’t the presence of the militia in Taylorsville on the day of the planned protest that caused the cancellation of the Taylorsville protest. Sullivan had already called that off via Facebook. 
 

And Sullivan was not pulled spontaneously off the street. He had been under investigation for his alleged behavior at the Provo riot. Police traced him to his home and arrested him there. Typical police procedure. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Just as [police protesters] have the right to their First Amendment rights and to exercise that,

Good catch

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

And Sullivan was not pulled spontaneously off the street.

Was someone saying he was?

The article has:

Quote

what happened to him at his house July 9, when he was taken into custody for his alleged involvement with crimes at a June 29 protest in Provo.

 

[Scott Lloyd]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Was someone saying he was?

The article has:

 

I think he was likening his arrest to what is happening in Portland. Not that I disapprove of federal agents being sent to Portland, but I feel Sullivan is drawing a strained comparison between his own arrest and what is allegedly going on there. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I think he was likening his arrest to what is happening in Portland. Not that I disapprove of federal agents being sent to Portland, but I feel Sullivan is drawing a strained comparison between his own arrest and what is allegedly going on there. 

Rereading it that does appear to be what he is doing or at least the paraphrase. If one cautions for Robertson, then one should be cautious with Sullivan, imo. 

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I notice that Robertson as quoted here acknowledges the protesters’ right to free speech, even as he affirms his own and others’ right to bear arms.
 

“‘Just as [police protesters] have the right to their First Amendment rights and to exercise that, we have also the Second Amendment, which allows us to bear arms, and yes,” UCA leader Casey Robertson said, “we want to be a deterrent for anyone that wants violence in our communities, and [being armed] is loud and clear deterrent for anyone who wants to destroy, kill, attack, that there are people here who will practice their Second Amendment rights.’”

 

This contradicts your conclusion drawn from the Guardian piece about his motive being to squelch free speech. 
 

By the way, I know from a Facebook post I saw that it wasn’t the presence of the militia in Taylorsville on the day of the planned protest that caused the cancellation of the Taylorsville protest. Sullivan had already called that off via Facebook. 
 

And Sullivan was not pulled spontaneously off the street. He had been under investigation for his alleged behavior at the Provo riot. Police traced him to his home and arrested him there. Typical police procedure. 

So if those mythical Antifa supersoldiers had shown up heavily armed at an anti-mask rally with the stated goal to deter violence you would treat them as vigilante heroes?

[Scott Lloyd]

43 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

So if those mythical Antifa supersoldiers had shown up heavily armed at an anti-mask rally with the stated goal to deter violence you would treat them as vigilante heroes?

Antifa with “a stated goal to deter violence”? 
 

I know you go for laughs much of the time, but that may be the most unintentionally funny thing you’ve ever written. 
 

By the way, I’ve never been a fan generally of ad hoc citizen militias, so don’t pin that on me. But so far, I don’t see anything, really, from this group to condemn it, and I definitely don’t see a functional equivalent between them and Antifa. That’s ridiculous. 
 

(The “auto-correct” on my iPhone keeps converting “Antifa” to “Antics.” Perhaps there’s a message in that.)

[The Nehor]

58 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Antifa with “a stated goal to deter violence”? 
 

I know you go for laughs much of the time, but that may be the most unintentionally funny thing you’ve ever written. 

No, it was intended to be funny. The joke though was that the citizen group you are praising exist and Antifa does not. Anyone can claim to be Antifa and the FBI has looked into ties to current protests and found nothing. If you want to believe in the mythical boogeyman go ahead. I admit the concept has created chuckles. At least twice during protests police resources have been diverted to counter fictional Antifa movements. I liked the one where cops were panicking over several vans of Antifa fighters entering the area and they bought it.

It is such a stupid boogeyman. Antifa has not been linked to a single killing and somehow they are a horrible threat. Anti fascist activity previous to Antifa going back over two decades reveals one fatality and that was of the anti fascist. Meanwhile white supremacists and other right wing extremists are tied to over 300 fatalities in the same time period. Even if you broaden out from just antifascism to left wing extremists in general you end up with under 30. If Antifa is the great enemy it is a pretty sad and pathetic war. 

 

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

By the way, I’ve never been a fan generally of ad hoc citizen militias, so don’t pin that on me. But so far, I don’t see anything, really, from this group to condemn it, and I definitely don’t see a functional equivalent between them and Antifa. That’s ridiculous. 

Agreed, the White Supremacists most militia groups are tied to are a much larger threat. Trying to make them equivalent is insane. Trying to make Antifa the greater threat is like believing the Earth is flat.

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:(The “auto-correct” on my iPhone keeps converting “Antifa” to “Antics.” Perhaps there’s a message in that.)

 

[The Nehor]

Post broke but I should add that I also find the antic=Antifa thing funny and even smiled at the same auto-correct but I was chuckling at the antics of grown men running around afraid of the shadows on the walls. Then I remembered those shadows are used by liars to stoke fear and hatred and it got less funny.

[Rajah Manchou]

5 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

So the militia types showing up to deter violent acts by the mob are de facto part of the mob?

That does not compute. 

Which militia types? The ones taking selfies on top of the overturned SLC police car or the ones marching down the street with BLM?

You seem to think there is only one well-regulated right wing militia and they all march in step with what you think is just. But their own Twitter feeds show that most right wing anti government militias in the streets right now are just as anxious for a confrontation as the mobs. Just look at the pics in the article. They are part of the same mob, and they state they are there to defend the protestors. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

The joke though was that the citizen group you are praising exist and Antifa does not. Anyone can claim to be Antifa and the FBI has looked into ties to current protests and found nothing. If you want to believe in the mythical boogeyman go ahead

This is getting political and so will likely close the thread, but I am wondering what you think of the ADL’s description of Antifa.

https://www.adl.org/resources/backgrounders/who-are-antifa
 

They have an interesting breakdown of extremist killings, which agrees with you that right wing is much more dangerous than left wing here in the US the past decade, primarily white supremacists:

https://www.adl.org/murder-and-extremism-2018

BBC did interviews with Antifa groups, though not of the intentionally violent variety which they report as the most extreme:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/articles/X56rQkDgd0qqB7R68t6t7C/seven-things-you-need-to-know-about-antifa
 

Quote

Their willingness to use violence marks out Antifa from many other left-wing activists, although the Antifa members we spoke to said they denounce the use of weapons and violent direct action. They said if violence does occur, it’s as a form of self-defence. They also make historical arguments to justify their position. For instance, they ask, what if opponents of the German Nazi Party had been more forceful in their opposition in the 1930s, could World War Two and the Holocaust have been averted?

Antifa have been directly and sometimes physically confronting the far right on the streets and, in some cases, they have been successful in postponing, cutting short or cancelling rallies and speeches up and down America.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Calm

[Bob Crockett]

11 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Was the point of the “brigade” to intimidate a protest movement in Nauvoo? My understanding was that the purpose was to shadow would-be counterfeiters and other blackguards who were coming into the city intent on committing crimes after the state of Illinois had revoked the Nauvoo City charter, thus depriving the city of authority to enforce its municipal laws and leaving it vulnerable to a criminal element. 
 

I think you are making quite a stretch in drawing this comparison. 

The City of Nauvoo had the power to declare martial law, and did, depriving citizens of civil rights.  No other City in Illinois had that power except perhaps one.  All the other cities governed their people like Chicago or Detroit. The revocation of the charter did not mean a defunding of police or closure of courts.  

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

This is getting political and so will likely close the thread, but I am wondering what you think of the ADL’s description of Antifa.

 

Please don’t make posts you think will close the thread. 
 

The riot in late June is the thread topic here. Perhaps we can get back on track. 

[Scott Lloyd]

8 minutes ago, Bob Crockett said:

The City of Nauvoo had the power to declare martial law, and did, depriving citizens of civil rights.  No other City in Illinois had that power except perhaps one.  All the other cities governed their people like Chicago or Detroit. The revocation of the charter did not mean a defunding of police or closure of courts.  

I disagree with you, but it’s off-topic, so I’ll refrain from engaging you on it. You are free to start a separate thread; I may or may not participate. 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Please don’t make posts you think will close the thread. 
 

The riot in late June is the thread topic here. Perhaps we can get back on track. 

I don’t think my post is going to close the thread. I think the previous posts made the thread political. 

[Scott Lloyd]

10 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don’t think my post is going to close the thread. I think the previous posts made the thread political. 

Ah, I see what you’re saying. 

[Scott Lloyd]

Here is how the city of Rockford, Ill., is dealing with lawlessness by mobs within their municipality. 
 

It is heartening to know that local officials in other parts of the country have a similarly sane attitude and approach to that of Salt Lake City and Provo. It is yet more remarkable when one considers this is in the same state as Chicago, where the actions of local officials have been woefully inadequate. 
 

 

[Scott Lloyd]

This item is nearly a month old, but I just noticed it, so I’m posting it now. 
 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.deseret.com/platform/amp/utah/2020/8/4/21345073/racial-justice-protests-bail-raised-for-utahn-charged-with-shooting-at-suv-in-crowd-provo

At the behest of the prosecutor in the case, the amount of bail has been increased for Jesse Taggart. The prosecution contends there is a risk Taggart will commit additional violence at future protests. The judge apparently agrees, because Taggart was ordered to come up with more bail money or report to jail. I haven’t heard whether or not he’s back in jail. 
 

In one of the most egregious examples of victim-shaming I’ve seen, the defense is attempting to turn justice on its head by claiming police charged the wrong man and that the motorist who suffered the gunshot wound should be charged with attempted murder for driving his SUV through the crowd. I get that the defense attorney has a job to do, but sheesh!

Edited August 29, 2020 by Scott Lloyd