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The Fate of the Unredeemed


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21 hours ago, InCognitus said:

 Which is very much like the sheep and goats parable of Matthew 25:31-46.

Joseph Smith recorded something similar.

"And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my
left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father. Wherefore I will say unto them – Depart
from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
” (D&C
29:27-28).

The wicked (those who don't become gods) are cursed with everlasting fire.

Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the
tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned
with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man
according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made
strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire
” (D&C 101:65-66).

The tares (those who don’t inherit eternal life–who don't become gods) will be burned.

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12 hours ago, Islander said:

What you are saying is that Endless: without end, infinite is not so?, That it means something else? So, the Lord engaged in some double talk there?

Equally, eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

God is perfectly merciful and just and Endless is just one of His many names (and He is endless also). Verse 1 alone shows at least three other names, and we can find many other names throughout the scriptures. He often uses His names in non-possessive eponymous terms such as "Endless/endless punishment." The medical community does the same thing as it moves from the possessive to the non-possessive (e.g. Parkinson Disease, Down syndrome instead of Parkinson's and Down's). The D&C is just way ahead of its time!

Edited by CV75
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40 minutes ago, theplains said:

Joseph Smith recorded something similar.

"And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my
left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father. Wherefore I will say unto them – Depart
from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
” (D&C
29:27-28).

The wicked (those who don't become gods) are cursed with everlasting fire.

Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the
tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned
with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man
according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made
strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire
” (D&C 101:65-66).

The tares (those who don’t inherit eternal life–who don't become gods) will be burned.

Just for the fun of it, consider that fire is a lesser glory than sunlight (in parallel with telestial and celestial light and glory). So yes, the wicked are destroyed by fire (as dead and useless branches are) in that they are not quickened or exalted by sunlight (as living things are), the spiritual following the pattern of the physical.

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5 hours ago, theplains said:

Joseph Smith recorded something similar.

"And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my
left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father. Wherefore I will say unto them – Depart
from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
” (D&C
29:27-28).

The wicked (those who don't become gods) are cursed with everlasting fire.

Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the
tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned
with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man
according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made
strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire
” (D&C 101:65-66).

The tares (those who don’t inherit eternal life–who don't become gods) will be burned.

Once again you think you know what you’re talking about but it appears you don’t. Doctrine and Covenants Section 76 was written nearly 2 years BEFORE Doctrine and Covenants 101! Therefore Doctrine and Covenants 101 can only be accurately interpreted in light of the more detailed light and knowledge of the plan of salvation found Doctrine and Covenants 76. Section 76 clearly states that many of the saved will become angelic servants to God but will not become gods themselves. 

All who are saved will enjoy eternal life, but some will enjoy a fullness thereof while others will enjoy varying portions of the same.. In order to be saved in any of the three kingdoms of heavenly glory each individual must, at very least, come unto Christ in faith, sincerely repent, receive a remission of sins, and receive the sanctifying power of the Holy Spirit. The more valiant among the saved  (those believers who overcome the world as described in the Book of Revelation)  will be granted the supreme honor of being seated on God’s very throne, the supreme symbol of his Almighty power, to rule and reign as eternal kings and priests as joint heirs with Christ in ALL the father possesses.

In our religion, God possesses the requisite power to transform and purify his beloved children until they fully conform to his divine image in all things. Apparently, you don’t believe God has power to fulfill the following transcendent promise...

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, THAT THEY ALSO MAY BE ONE IN US: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

P.S. Have you figured out how those who died without a knowledge of Christ will be judged less harshly at the final judgement?

 
 

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Passages in the Book of Mormon, as well as any and all scriptures, are best understood in connection with pondering all of them. For example, we get a great deal more nuance and discovery from these passages:

(All emphasis are my additions)

Mosiah 2:38

Therefore if that man repenteth not . . . his immortal soul [awakens] to a lively sense of his own guilt, which doth cause him to shrink from the presence of the Lord, and doth fill his breast with guilt, and pain, and anguish, which "IS LIKE" an unquenchable fire, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever.

Mosiah 3:24-27

They shall be judged, every man according to his works, whether they be good, or whether they be evil. And if they be evil they are consigned to an awful view of their own guilt and abominations, which doth cause them to shrink from the presence of the Lord into a state of misery and endless torment, from whence they can no more return; therefore they have drunk damnation to their own souls . . . And their torment "IS AS" a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flames are unquenchable, and whose smoke ascendeth up forever and ever.

2 Ne 9:16

Their torment "IS AS" a lake of fire and brimstone, whose flame ascendeth up forever and ever and has no end.

Mormon 9:5 (all of chapter 9 is worth reading on this matter)

For behold, when ye shall be brought to see your nakedness before God, and also the glory of God, and the holiness of Jesus Christ, it will kindle a flame of unquenchable fire upon you.

//////////////////////

To me, this teaches that we all know this torment as a consequence of our behavior if we have managed to screw up royally in this lifetime (blessings on those who have managed to avoid that!). It's not just an afterlife thing and not even mainly an afterlife thing. We carry our hell or heaven with us wherever we go, depending on where we are at in our progression.

///////////////////

You can go further in your study and get this:

2 Ne 31:13, 17

" . . . then cometh the baptism of fire . . . then cometh a remission of your sins by fire . . ."

3 Ne 24:2-3

But who may abide the day of his coming, and who shall stand when he appeareth? For he is like a refiner’s fire . . . And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier  . . . that they "MAY" offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness.

Two stories of being encircled with fire: Helaman 5:43-45 (this miracle afforded transformation to those who were not in a good condition initially, as 3 Ne 24:2-3 suggests is available); 3 Ne 17:24; and I think Lehi's vision involved fire too.

And the following hints that maybe the fire for the wicked and the righteous may be the same fire and have the capacity to move each forward in their progression in some way:

1 Ne 22:15

For the day soon cometh that all the proud and they who do wickedly . . . must be burned.

At this point, having studied all the previous passages, the significance and meaning of 'being burned' begins to emerge less as a punishment and more as a merciful opportunity to be released from the weight and torment of sins and their consequences. Verse 17 continues with fire being for the wicked AND the righteous--and perhaps it is the same fire?

The righteous be preserved, even unto the destruction of their enemies by fire. Wherefore, the righteous need not fear; for thus saith the prophet, they shall be saved, even if it so be as by fire.

/////////////////////////////

The verse in the OP is from Mosiah 26. When Alma the Elder, in his efforts to organize the church and deal with those who were doing great iniquity, he got an answer from God that included the words quoted by the OP. It is best to understand it in context with the entire situation and the longer message.  God was trying to make clear that the church was not a club, that real transformation has to take place (so that peace and safety and freedom and life etc can exist in the community). Verse 22: "whosoever is baptized shall be baptized unto repentance . . . and him will I freely forgive". Verse 30: "as often as my people repent will I forgive them their trespasses against me."

Even though that seemed to be the end of the conversation, the Lord had more to teach Alma (the Elder) as well as his son, Alma (the Younger) in a real time experience that happened soon after this initial answer to Alma the Elder's inquiry recorded in Mosiah 26. Mosiah 27 describes Alma the Younger's transformation experience.

Mosiah 27:28-29

After wading through much tribulation, repenting nigh unto death, the Lord in mercy hath seen fit to snatch me out of an everlasting burning, and I am born of God. My soul hath been redeemed from the gall of bitterness and bonds of iniquity. I was in the darkest abyss; but now I behold the marvelous light of God. My soul was racked with eternal torment; but I am snatched, and my soul is pained no more. [P.S. He uses the words 'eternal' and 'everlasting' when in earth time, it was 3 days.]

He described the experience later to his own son, in Alma 36:12-21.

I was racked with eternal torment, for my soul was harrowed up to the greatest degree and racked with all my sins. Yea, I did remember all my sins and iniquities, for which I was tormented with the pains of hell  . . . so great had been my iniquities, that the very thought of coming into the presence of my God did rack my soul with inexpressible horror. Oh, thought I, that I could be banished and become extinct both soul and body, that I might not be brought to stand in the presence of my God, to be judged of my deeds. . . While I was harrowed up by the memory of my many sins, behold, I remembered . . . Jesus Christ . . . Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me . . . And now, behold, when I thought this, I could remember my pains no more; yea, I was harrowed up by the memory of my sins no more. And oh, what joy, and what marvelous light I did behold; yea, my soul was filled with joy as exceeding as was my pain! Yea, I say unto you, my son, that there could be nothing so exquisite and so bitter as were my pains. Yea, and again I say unto you, my son, that on the other hand, there can be nothing so exquisite and sweet as was my joy.

The fact is, that it is not different people who are the wicked and the saved; it is that the wicked and the saved are in one body--our own selves and our journey(s) in time and eternity. We all know what it is like to be in the bonds of iniquity and then to be saved from that. (Unless you have managed to avoid the former, and blessings if so.)

It is coming to this marvelous understanding of the full picture of the opportunity and destiny for joy that we each have that led to Alma to express:

Mosiah 27:24-26

I have repented of my sins, and have been redeemed of the Lord; behold I am born of the Spirit. [p.s. = fire] . . . Marvel not that all mankind, yea, men and women, all nations, kindreds, tongues and people, must be born again; yea, born of God, changed from their carnal and fallen state, to a state of righteousness, being redeemed of God, becoming his sons and daughters; And thus they become new creatures; and unless they do this, they can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

This understanding also leads to this (and the next part of the story/progression): Mosiah 28:3-4

Now they were desirous that salvation should be declared to every creature, for they could not bear that any human soul should perish; yea, even the very thoughts that any soul should endure endless torment did cause them to quake and tremble. And thus did the Spirit of the Lord work upon them, for they were the very vilest of sinners. And the Lord saw fit in his infinite mercy to spare them; nevertheless they suffered much anguish of soul because of their iniquities, suffering much and fearing that they should be cast off forever. [p.s. not necessarily that they WOULD be cast off forever, but experiencing the FEAR that they would be cast off forever]

And finally, the miraculous reality of what pondering fully on the hellfire teachings in the Book of Mormon will conclude to (and Alma the Younger being plain as day for us): Alma 5:6-9

He has delivered their souls from hell

He changed their hearts

He awakened them out of a deep sleep

They awoke unto God

 

They were in the midst of darkness

Nevertheless, their souls were illuminated by the light of the everlasting word

Yea, they were encircled about by the bands of death and the chains of hell and an everlasting destruction did await them.

And now I ask of you . . . were they destroyed?

 

Nay, they were not.

 

Were the bands of death broken?

And the chains of hell which encircled them about, were they loosed?

 

Yea, they were loosed and their souls did expand

And they did sing redeeming love.

 

And I say unto you that they are saved.

 

 

Edited by Maidservant
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On 6/12/2020 at 12:06 PM, InCognitus said:

The place that is at Christ's right hand is shown on the left side of this painting :) 

Washington_DC_Temple_Mural_web.thumb.jpg.c027eabe63b50c88dd3467c2388d4701.jpg

Which is very much like the sheep and goats parable of Matthew 25:31-46.

 

Do you all think all 150 billion folks who have ever lived will be in this painting?

 

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On 6/12/2020 at 4:01 PM, Islander said:

Well, in D&C 19 you have all the context you need. The Lord says, repent or you will end up in hell eternally, forever...that is all the context you need and there is no need to read anything else into that statement by the Lord. 

A common mistake is confusing personal revelation with scripture interpretation. The scripture means what the scripture means even if you never existed. There is but ONE meaning to what the Lord said and He intended the people He gave the revelation, to precisely understand it THAT way. Not 5 different ways. 

Personal revelation deals with how does a scriptural passage speaks to the particulars of your life. In what way your life, thoughts and feelings mirror a situation in a passage. You can find inspiration, courage, an increase in faith, a willingness to endure, etc in the scriptures. Context serves as an anchor for meaning so that we are sure that what it says in passage A is (or refers to) the same as what is in passage B although the text may vary somewhat and that we are clear as to what we are reading..

Is context the full extent of LDS hermeneutics? Just asking for a friend!

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17 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Do you all think all 150 billion folks who have ever lived will be in this painting?

 

No, you have to learn our Doctrine.

We are virtually universalists.

I can't let you think that. That is precisely why we have the temple mi amigo.

The painting is in error.

Don't have time to preach, but hopefully someone will get it right. 

I would be surprised if there are 100 people in perdition, quite likely many less.

One has to have all ordinances completed, and then deny Christ while knowing perfectly that he is doing so.

It is said to be like looking directly at the Sun and denying it exists.

The paintings really bug me.

Back into my hole.

Edited by mfbukowski
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12 hours ago, theplains said:

The tares (those who don’t inherit eternal life–who don't become gods) will be burned.

Now you are really confusing me. What about all those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdom? They aren't becoming gods . . . they aren't going to burn are they? You all are really confusing me again! Oh well, I guess that is easily done!

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9 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Back into my hole.

Don't go back into your hole. What really confused me is some of the men on Christ's right hand have blue shirts on! But then today I read the new guidelines, so now I can understand that! You have no idea how many white shirts I have had to buy over the past three years! 🤠

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35 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Now you are really confusing me. What about all those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdom? They aren't becoming gods . . . they aren't going to burn are they? You all are really confusing me again! Oh well, I guess that is easily done!

Read Doctrine and Covenants 76

It explains this pretty well. 

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52 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Now you are really confusing me. What about all those in the terrestrial and telestial kingdom? They aren't becoming gods . . . they aren't going to burn are they? You all are really confusing me again! Oh well, I guess that is easily done!

Plains is not LDS, so he probably is confused himself about our teachings from what I have seen.  If you want to understand our doctrine from our POV, you might want to skip his explanations.

As taught by Church:

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/manual/doctrine-and-covenants-student-manual/section-86-the-parable-of-the-wheat-and-the-tares?lang=eng

Edited by Calm
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On 6/12/2020 at 3:07 PM, Islander said:

“For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore— Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment.” D&C 19:10-12

But . . . . :)

In the very same chapter 19:5-6, very plainly,

Woes shall go forth, weeping, wailing and gnashing of teeth, yea, to those who are found on my left hand. Nevertheless, it is not written that there shall be no end to this torment, but it is written endless torment.

THEN it goes into what you quote here regarding how 'endless' is God's name and that's why the punishment is called that. It's not about length of time, but the quality of the experience.

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16 hours ago, theplains said:

Joseph Smith recorded something similar.

"And the righteous shall be gathered on my right hand unto eternal life; and the wicked on my
left hand will I be ashamed to own before the Father. Wherefore I will say unto them – Depart
from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
” (D&C
29:27-28).

The wicked (those who don't become gods) are cursed with everlasting fire.

Therefore, I must gather together my people, according to the parable of the wheat and the
tares, that the wheat may be secured in the garners to possess eternal life, and be crowned
with celestial glory, when I shall come in the kingdom of my Father to reward every man
according as his work shall be; While the tares shall be bound in bundles, and their bands made
strong, that they may be burned with unquenchable fire
” (D&C 101:65-66).

The tares (those who don’t inherit eternal life–who don't become gods) will be burned.

You seem to be trying to make this about becoming gods or not becoming gods.  But the left hand and right hand judgment analogy simply illustrates the full scope of Christ’s judgment upon men.  His judgment is broad and extends from one extreme to the other.  But there are nuanced areas in between, as I hope to try to explain below.

Consider what Jesus says in Matthew 25:31-46 in the parable of the sheep and the goats.  What is the difference between being sheep or a goat?   According to Jesus the difference only has to do with the person’s actions.  A sheep (on the right) gives food to the hungry, drink to the thirsty, accommodations to strangers, clothing to the naked, and visits the sick and captives.  But a goat (on the left) doesn’t do any of those things.  And Jesus tells the sheep that they have “life eternal”, but the goats “go away into everlasting punishment” (verse 46).

So what if you help the poor occasionally and visit the sick only when it is convenient?  Are you a sheep or a goat?   How do you know if you've done what it takes to be a sheep?  Reality isn’t that black and white, and neither is it one extreme or another when it comes to understanding the right hand and left hand, the sheep and the goats, the wheat and the tares, or the righteous and the wicked.  The scriptures make it clear there are nuances to our judgment in between.

For example, Jesus says of those who are persecuted for righteousness sake, “great is your reward in heaven” (Matt 5:11-12).  But he says to those who humble themselves as a little child, “the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven” (Matt 18:4).   

And on the other hand (pun intended – this is the left hand side now) to the Pharisees who cheat widows out of their property and then pretend to be pious by making long prayers in public, Jesus says they shall “receive a greater damnation” (Mark 12:38-40 and also Luke 20:46-47). 

And there are a varying degree of “stripes” that are (parabolically speaking) given as punishment to those who know the Lord’s will and don’t do it compared to those who don’t know the Lord’s will, as Jesus says in Luke 12:47-48:  “And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.”   And of the former, Jesus says of him:  "The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers." (Luke 12:46)

As you can see, a person can have a “great” reward in heaven, or they may be the “greatest in the kingdom of heaven”.  A person could be damned, or they may have an even “greater damnation”, or beaten with a few stripes, or many stripes.  Exactly how far right is a “great” reward compared to the “greatest” in the kingdom of heaven?  Or how far left are a few stripes compared to many stripes, or even to those who receive the “greater damnation”?  A greater damnation than what?  Greater than being cast into everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels?

So this is not simply an issue of you either become gods and receive eternal life or you get cast into everlasting fire.  As the parable of the sower shows, even of those who have the good soil and accept the gospel and bear fruit, there are those who bear fruit an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.   We are not all the same, and neither will be our judgment.  (See D&C section 76 for further details).

Edited by InCognitus
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5 hours ago, Navidad said:

Do you all think all 150 billion folks who have ever lived will be in this painting?

2051609411_NeedABiggerCanvas.JPG.1158d820f667dcf8ef4840c62c96356a.JPG

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  Ok, getting serious now.....To answer your REAL question (I think):

As I said in the previous post, the "right hand" and "left hand" analogy illustrates the extremes of the full scope of judgement upon all mankind, and that painting is just an illustration of that illustration (ha... wait, I thought I said I was getting serious now).  But if the question is about whether all will be judged, then the answer is yes.  Paul says, we will "all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." (2 Cor 5:10).  

Edited by InCognitus
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17 hours ago, Navidad said:

Is context the full extent of LDS hermeneutics? Just asking for a friend!

It can not be. The scripture means what the scripture was meant to say to the people it was given. What we "think or believe" about it is irrelevant. Or, it becomes a free for all and each interprets and believes whatsoever they want. If the apparent contradictions can not be resolved by language or context, then the alleged interpretation is wrong. The Lord will not state something in one part of the scriptures and then contradicts Himself completely in another. There are many scripture references to eternal/forever/endless punishment and torment for those that are not saved. 

Isaiah 66:22-24

Daniel 12:1-2

Matthew 18:6-9

Matthew 25:31-46

Mark 9:42-48

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

Jude 7

Jude 13

Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 20:10, 14-15

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4 hours ago, Islander said:

It can not be. The scripture means what the scripture was meant to say to the people it was given. What we "think or believe" about it is irrelevant. Or, it becomes a free for all and each interprets and believes whatsoever they want. If the apparent contradictions can not be resolved by language or context, then the alleged interpretation is wrong. The Lord will not state something in one part of the scriptures and then contradicts Himself completely in another. There are many scripture references to eternal/forever/endless punishment and torment for those that are not saved. 

Isaiah 66:22-24

Daniel 12:1-2

Matthew 18:6-9

Matthew 25:31-46

Mark 9:42-48

2 Thessalonians 1:5-10

Jude 7

Jude 13

Revelation 14:9-11

Revelation 20:10, 14-15

These are all biblical, and the gospel has been restored.

And revisions are always in process. God reveals things for a particular time and place, and scripture is subject to interpretation and change.

It is not wise to take literally, in translation, what was meant for another culture and age.

 

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4 hours ago, Islander said:

endless punishment and torment for those that are not saved

Which would only be the sons of perdition 

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4 hours ago, Islander said:

The scripture means what the scripture was meant to say to the people it was given.

One of the things to also keep in mind is that Hebrew scriptural writing (includes OT, NT, and Book of Mormon) is highly symbolic and is NOT often the plain or literal meaning, which is meant to be a barrier for those who are not prepared to receive mysteries and thereby also a passcode for those who have learned the scriptural language, memes, and principles.

To paraphrase Maria Guarino and Richard Rohr, "Taking (scriptures) seriously does not require taking them literally." Or I also found a quote the other day which for the life of me I can't recover but that suggested that the OT specifically, i.e. the Hebrew tradition, was written and prepared by those at an extremely 'high' and intricate level; but it is not often read by those at that level, and that to read it at any other level is to not have read it all.

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37 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

t is not wise to take literally, in translation, what was meant for another culture and age.

What happens to LDS doctrine when today becomes "another culture and age" 200 years from now and future LDS folks can no longer "take literally" what you all say, teach, and believe today? Isn't that what happened to the writings and sermons of Jedediah Grant, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and actually is still happening to writings of those like B.H. Roberts and some of Spencer Kimball? 

I think 200 years from now Mennonites will still be singing:

"When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne."

The right hand of the throne, that is! 😀

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35 minutes ago, Navidad said:

What happens to LDS doctrine when today becomes "another culture and age" 200 years from now and future LDS folks can no longer "take literally" what you all say, teach, and believe today? Isn't that what happened to the writings and sermons of Jedediah Grant, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and actually is still happening to writings of those like B.H. Roberts and some of Spencer Kimball? 

I think 200 years from now Mennonites will still be singing:

"When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne."

The right hand of the throne, that is! 😀

Christ will return long before 200 years are up and straighten all of us out.

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3 minutes ago, rodheadlee said:

Christ will return long before 200 years are up and straighten all of us out.

I look forward to it!

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4 hours ago, Navidad said:

What happens to LDS doctrine when today becomes "another culture and age" 200 years from now and future LDS folks can no longer "take literally" what you all say, teach, and believe today? Isn't that what happened to the writings and sermons of Jedediah Grant, Orson Pratt, John Taylor, and actually is still happening to writings of those like B.H. Roberts and some of Spencer Kimball? 

I think 200 years from now Mennonites will still be singing:

"When He shall come with trumpet sound,
Oh, may I then in Him be found;
Dressed in His righteousness alone,
Faultless to stand before the throne."

The right hand of the throne, that is! 😀

I cannot comprehend your obsession with us.

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On 6/13/2020 at 8:00 PM, Navidad said:

Do you all think all 150 billion folks who have ever lived will be in this painting?

 

In a second look at the painting- I notice a very small group on the left side of the savior and a huge innumerable mass at his right.

Notice in the background, on the left side of the painting on Christ's right hand, it is almost like looking at a partial shot of a stadium like structure with people represented as dots far in the distance, while those on the right, dark side would be easily countable if one wanted to do so, with no indication that there are more than what is literally portrayed.

The artist got it right-ish actually!

At least the proportionality is not as bad as I thought.  One would virtually have to be an LDS prophet to even qualify for outer darkness and then deny it all.  Think Lucifer for an example.

People like Stalin and the leader of Germany during the early 1940's would not even come close to qualifying.  (there are rules against mentioning his name- no kidding- "Godwin's Law")

It's not as bad an illustration as I thought on second viewing.

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20 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

notice a very small group on the left side of the savior

The center figure of the group is a woman on her knees, hands clasped and looking upwards.  The impression I get is while she may not recognize Christ, she is still seeking God so is unlikely eternally lost.  There is hope being portrayed even for the 'goats', they may yet become 'sheep' (goats are great, btw; I get that they have their own minds, but it can make them fun if they have good tempers, especially when young; their milk is delicious too...I am curious why Jesus chose goats, can't remember, need to look it up because it doesn't make sense to me given how very useful they are, would have made more sense to use pigs as they are unclean).

I can't find the name of the picture on churchofjesuschrist.org, added:  title "The Last Judgment" and artist is John Scott.  Be interested if it has a story to go with it.

Edited by Calm
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