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The Fate of the Unredeemed


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Mosiah 26:24-27 says, "For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they 
shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.  And it shall come 
to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come 
forth and shall stand before me. And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, 
that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed. And then I will confess unto 
them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for 
the devil and his angels.

Where is the place that is at Christ's right hand?

Why are those who know Jesus resurrected to be eternally at this place but those who don't 
know Jesus depart into everlasting fire?

Thank you,

Gale

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I am just hoping that Jesus is ambidextrous so us left-handers also have a place beside Him. 😎

Edited by strappinglad
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37 minutes ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 26:24-27 says, "For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they 
shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.  And it shall come 
to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come 
forth and shall stand before me. And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, 
that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed. And then I will confess unto 
them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for 
the devil and his angels.

Where is the place that is at Christ's right hand?

Why are those who know Jesus resurrected to be eternally at this place but those who don't 
know Jesus depart into everlasting fire?

Thank you,

Gale

"Redeemed/redemption" like "salvation" can mean different things depending on context.

For example, the "just" who are gathered as resurrected (redeemed) on the right hand -- the first resurrection -- are redeemed (resurrected or physical redemption) to be judged (also conveying being ruled by God) in a higher kingdom of immortal glory (also redeemed, but a spiritual redemption) than the unjust who are also resurrected (redeemed physically) -- the second resurrection -- but who would not be so ruled and depart from His presence and into the everlasting fire (which could be a physical glory -- compared to this fallen world --  but which is generally interpreted as  "punishment" which is also contextual per D&C 19).

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1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 26:24-27 says, "For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they 
shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.  And it shall come 
to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come 
forth and shall stand before me. And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, 
that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed. And then I will confess unto 
them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for 
the devil and his angels.

Where is the place that is at Christ's right hand?

Why are those who know Jesus resurrected to be eternally at this place but those who don't 
know Jesus depart into everlasting fire?

Thank you,

Gale

I think this is a reference to Sons of Perdition.  See here (remarks by Elder Charles Penrose):

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"There is one class which will be different from all the rest. They shall be brought forth, the Lord says, but they will go back into their own place. They would not receive that which they might have had; they would not obey that which they might have obeyed. They received the light and the truth and then would not use it in the way that God had appointed. They would not go on unto perfection by keeping every word that proceeded from the mouth of God, but prostituted the power God had given them, to rise to the highest heights but sunk down to the lowest depths; denying the truth revealed to them; shedding innocent blood; consenting to the death of Christ; thus sinning against the Holy Ghost and becoming so corrupt and abominable that they cannot be redeemed. But they shall be brought forth from the grave and become subject to the devil, and his angels in eternity. What is their end? we do not know; nobody knows, the Lord says. Some people are inquiring about the end of these sons of perdition. The Lord says no man knows it, that the end thereof and  the height and the extent and the depth thereof no man knoweth and if the Lord does reveal it to some He shuts up the vision. What, then, is 'the second death?' Why, the Lord tells us what that is in His revelation in the twenty-ninth section of the D&C. It is eternal banishment from His presence. He is the source of light and truth and power and glory and happiness and joy and dominion and increase forever, of which they will all be deprived. Being shut right out from the light, these shall go away into outer darkness where no ray of light comes, spiritual or physical--no ray of light from sun or moon or twinkling star or even a comet; to be in outer darkness, and no wonder there is 'weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth,' to use the scripture expression." (Conference Reports, Oct. 1914, p. 42)

Thanks,

-Smac

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Outer Darkness. I went there once. No one was in my universe. Empty, all alone for all eternity. 

Edited by rodheadlee
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1 hour ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 26:24-27 says, "For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they 
shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.  And it shall come 
to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come 
forth and shall stand before me. And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, 
that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed. And then I will confess unto 
them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for 
the devil and his angels.

Where is the place that is at Christ's right hand?

Why are those who know Jesus resurrected to be eternally at this place but those who don't 
know Jesus depart into everlasting fire?

Thank you,

Gale

The place at Christ’s right hand is the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is the realm of eternal salvation which God has prepared for his resurrected children. Within this kingdom are many mansions of varying degrees of heavenly glory, and in order to inherit even one of the least of these heavenly mansions one must, at bare minimum, exercise faith in Christ unto repentance,  receive a remission of sins, and receive the enlightening , empowering and sanctifying companionship of the Holy Spirit. The only individuals who will not receive an eternal inheritance in the kingdom of heaven are those who totally reject the divine Sonship of Jesus Christ, and for this reason utterly refuse to exercise faith in Christ unto repentance.

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12 hours ago, smac97 said:

I think this is a reference to Sons of Perdition.  See here (remarks by Elder Charles Penrose):

Thanks,

-Smac

12 hours ago, rodheadlee said:

Outer Darkness. I went there once. No one was in my universe. Empty, all alone for all eternity. 

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

The place at Christ’s right hand is the kingdom of heaven. The kingdom of heaven is the realm of eternal salvation which God has prepared for his resurrected children. Within this kingdom are many mansions of varying degrees of heavenly glory, and in order to inherit even one of the least of these heavenly mansions one must, at bare minimum, exercise faith in Christ unto repentance,  receive a remission of sins, and receive the enlightening , empowering and sanctifying companionship of the Holy Spirit. The only individuals who will not receive an eternal inheritance in the kingdom of heaven are those who totally reject the divine Sonship of Jesus Christ, and for this reason utterly refuse to exercise faith in Christ unto repentance.

Those on the farthest left [not waxing political here! :) ) would be the sons of perdition, and those on the farthest right would be the exalted. It is interesting that all are saved one way or another, except the sons of perdition (D&C 76:43-46). Those with the opposing absolute salvation are those who become one with Him.

 

 

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41 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Those on the farthest left [not waxing political here! :) ) would be the sons of perdition, and those on the farthest right would be the exalted. It is interesting that all are saved one way or another, except the sons of perdition (D&C 76:43-46). Those with the opposing absolute salvation are those who become one with Him.

 

 

Of course.

 

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I've found myself quite curious why God keeps telling us that He doesn't know many of us.  He says it in the gospels too.  It makes the modern religionists view of things seems silly, though.  For instance, Pres Nelson touted the notion that we're all known to God.  But in truth many of us are not...and we don't know which of us are not known to Him.  Odd too that here he is claiming that all those who don't know HIm are those who aren't known by Him.  Odd in that no one really does know Him.  I mean in the facile pretend way many claim to know him, but it appears to me, those who claim to know him really just know of him, and seem forced to think their meager conception of who he might be is enough to claim they really know him.  

What a twisted knot it is to believe these days.  Scripture is a real problem in many ways.  Luckily most believers just ignore much of it.  

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27 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I've found myself quite curious why God keeps telling us that He doesn't know many of us.  He says it in the gospels too.  It makes the modern religionists view of things seems silly, though.  For instance, Pres Nelson touted the notion that we're all known to God.  But in truth many of us are not...and we don't know which of us are not known to Him.  Odd too that here he is claiming that all those who don't know HIm are those who aren't known by Him.  Odd in that no one really does know Him.  I mean in the facile pretend way many claim to know him, but it appears to me, those who claim to know him really just know of him, and seem forced to think their meager conception of who he might be is enough to claim they really know him.  

What a twisted knot it is to believe these days.  Scripture is a real problem in many ways.  Luckily most believers just ignore much of it.  

Context. There are different kinds of knowing. To refuse to be redeemed ("they would not be redeemed") is to disable His knowing them as He envisioned them as redeemed in the Garden of Gethsemane. So when they choose an alternative left-hand state, He does not know them. He knows us by the name He gave us in the Garden of Gethsemane, so when we choose another, He does not know us (Mosiah 5). See D&C 19 for the context of "never".

Edited by CV75
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18 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Context. There are different kinds of knowing. To refuse to be redeemed ("they would not be redeemed") is to disable His knowing them as He envisioned them as redeemed in the Garden of Gethsemane. So when they choose an alternative left-hand state, He does not know them. He knows us by the name He gave us in the Garden of Gethsemane, so when we choose another, He does not know us (Mosiah 5). See D&C 19 for the context of "never".

I'm happy to see people reinterpret scripture to fit their idea of what God is, but of course, that is not what scripture suggests.  It simply says God never knew these certain people.  It's really odd to try and reinterpret one part of scripture in light of another, only in that, it's an attempt to say since one part contradicts another we should see it as the one we prefer.  I don't see anything in D&C 19 that clarifies the concept of never.  

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23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

I'm happy to see people reinterpret scripture to fit their idea of what God is, but of course, that is not what scripture suggests.  It simply says God never knew these certain people.  It's really odd to try and reinterpret one part of scripture in light of another, only in that, it's an attempt to say since one part contradicts another we should see it as the one we prefer.  I don't see anything in D&C 19 that clarifies the concept of never.  

Thank you for giving this so much thought!

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18 hours ago, telnetd said:

Mosiah 26:24-27 says, "For behold, in my name are they called; and if they know me they 
shall come forth, and shall have a place eternally at my right hand.  And it shall come 
to pass that when the second trump shall sound then shall they that never knew me come 
forth and shall stand before me. And then shall they know that I am the Lord their God, 
that I am their Redeemer; but they would not be redeemed. And then I will confess unto 
them that I never knew them; and they shall depart into everlasting fire prepared for 
the devil and his angels
.

Where is the place that is at Christ's right hand?

Why are those who know Jesus resurrected to be eternally at this place but those who don't 
know Jesus depart into everlasting fire?

Thank you,

Gale

The place that is at Christ's right hand is shown on the left side of this painting :) 

Washington_DC_Temple_Mural_web.thumb.jpg.c027eabe63b50c88dd3467c2388d4701.jpg

Which is very much like the sheep and goats parable of Matthew 25:31-46.

Quote

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
(Matthew 25:31–46)

 

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3 hours ago, stemelbow said:

I'm happy to see people reinterpret scripture to fit their idea of what God is, but of course, that is not what scripture suggests.  It simply says God never knew these certain people.  It's really odd to try and reinterpret one part of scripture in light of another, only in that, it's an attempt to say since one part contradicts another we should see it as the one we prefer.  I don't see anything in D&C 19 that clarifies the concept of never.  

You don't even claim to know God, do you?  And it seems to me that your idea of who and what he is isn't quite right, so even if you do claim to know him, at this point, I don't think you really do.  And maybe God doesn't really know you either, at this point, even though you spent time in heaven with him before you were born on Earth.  Maybe he thought he knew you, or maybe he did know you then, but now you have changed from how you were then and it isn't clear to him how you will turn out to be.  

The idea that Goes knows everything doesn't necessarily mean he knows each person individually.  I believe he knows every attribute we can develop, out of all of the possibilities, but maybe he doesn't know how we will turn out, yet.

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7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

You don't even claim to know God, do you?  And it seems to me that your idea of who and what he is isn't quite right, so even if you do claim to know him, at this point, I don't think you really do.  And maybe God doesn't really know you either, at this point, even though you spent time in heaven with him before you were born on Earth.  Maybe he thought he knew you, or maybe he did know you then, but now you have changed from how you were then and it isn't clear to him how you will turn out to be.  

The idea that Goes knows everything doesn't necessarily mean he knows each person individually.  I believe he knows every attribute we can develop, out of all of the possibilities, but maybe he doesn't know how we will turn out, yet.

If God never knew someone how could he possibly have known them at some point in the past?  I can't tell if you're saying that it's true God doesn't know everyone, thus doesn't love everyone, or if you think God used to know everyone but since everyone kind of changes it means he doesn't really know everyone now.  

The scriptures seem clear on this--there are people God never knew (not back before we were born, nor at any other moment).  He simply never knew anyone who never knew Him and He never knew many believers.  It appears He never attempted to know most of us.   

Edited by stemelbow
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Just now, stemelbow said:

If God never knew someone how could he possibly have known them at some point in the past? 

I've had experiences where I've known some people, or thought I knew them, and then later found out that they weren't the type of person I thought they were.  So in some sense I could say I never knew them, even though I knew they existed and even had some personal experiences with them.  So maybe it's just semantics. 

Just now, stemelbow said:

I can't tell if you're saying that it's true God doesn't know everyone, thus doesn't love everyone, or if you think God used to know everyone but since everyone kind of changes it means he doesn't really know everyone now. 

You can't tell, huh.  Don't you know me well enough yet to know what I meant?  Do you know me at all?  Do you think it's possible that you never have known me?

Just now, stemelbow said:

The scriptures seem clear on this--there are people God never knew (not back before we were born, nor at any other moment).  He simply never knew anyone who never knew Him and He never knew many believers.  It appears there are most of us He never really tried to know, in any sense.  

It sounds more and more to me like you don't really know him at all, even though there was maybe once a time when you could have.

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6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I've had experiences where I've known some people, or thought I knew them, and then later found out that they weren't the type of person I thought they were.  So in some sense I could say I never knew them, even though I knew they existed and even had some personal experiences with them.  So maybe it's just semantics. 

You can't tell, huh.  Don't you know me well enough yet to know what I meant?  Do you know me at all?  Do you think it's possible that you never have known me?

It sounds more and more to me like you don't really know him at all, even though there was maybe once a time when you could have.

Interesting.  So all those people who thought they lived their lives knowing God, doing things for him and his cause, were told by God that He never knew them, because as it turns out, they were different then he thought they were.  All their prayers and submissions to him were unheard?  So he never really listened or tried to know them along the way?

Interesting twist on it--I like how you compared you and I to God in this though.

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39 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Interesting.  So all those people who thought they lived their lives knowing God, doing things for him and his cause,

Doing things for him and his cause, really? Or were they just doing things that they thought they were doing for him and his cause but those things were really not for him or his cause?  And notice that I am asking you this.

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were told by God that He never knew them, because as it turns out, they were different then he thought they were. 

Yeah, maybe, possibly.

Quote

All their prayers and submissions to him were unheard? 

Not necessarily. A person can hear from someone and not really know who or what type of person they are hearing from.  

Quote

So he never really listened or tried to know them along the way?

Not necessarily. He may have even tried to get to know them, and help them to get to know him, and yet for some reason they still never really knew each other.

Quote

Interesting twist on it--I like how you compared you and I to God in this though.

Thank you, or who I think you are.

Edited by Ahab
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Knowing God:

1 John 2:3-6:
"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

Being Known of God:

Luke 6:44:   "For every tree is known by his own fruit."
John 10:14  "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine."
1 Cor 8:3  "But if any man love God, the same is known of him."
 

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20 hours ago, CV75 said:

"Redeemed/redemption" like "salvation" can mean different things depending on context.

For example, the "just" who are gathered as resurrected (redeemed) on the right hand -- the first resurrection -- are redeemed (resurrected or physical redemption) to be judged (also conveying being ruled by God) in a higher kingdom of immortal glory (also redeemed, but a spiritual redemption) than the unjust who are also resurrected (redeemed physically) -- the second resurrection -- but who would not be so ruled and depart from His presence and into the everlasting fire (which could be a physical glory -- compared to this fallen world --  but which is generally interpreted as  "punishment" which is also contextual per D&C 19).

Eternal torment is ETERNAL TORMENT as the one reserved for the devil and his angels. We can't read anything else into that. All will be physically resurrected and those that rejected Christ and His covenant ("those that never knew me") will be cast out into this place of punishment and torment forever. That is what the scripture says very clearly and what is reiterates on D&C 19:

“For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore— Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment.” D&C 19:10-12

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18 minutes ago, Islander said:

Eternal torment is ETERNAL TORMENT as the one reserved for the devil and his angels. We can't read anything else into that. All will be physically resurrected and those that rejected Christ and His covenant ("those that never knew me") will be cast out into this place of punishment and torment forever. That is what the scripture says very clearly and what is reiterates on D&C 19:

“For, behold, I am endless, and the punishment which is given from my hand is endless punishment, for Endless is my name. Wherefore— Eternal punishment is God’s punishment. Endless punishment is God’s punishment.” D&C 19:10-12

We can, and do, read into it (as well we should, as the Lord desires that!). Context is important.

The scriptures (the scriptural definition of scripture) are clear and reiterated when taken as a whole and according the advanced light of the Restoration.

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18 minutes ago, CV75 said:

We can, and do, read into it (as well we should, as the Lord desires that!). Context is important.

The scriptures (the scriptural definition of scripture) are clear and reiterated when taken as a whole and according the advanced light of the Restoration.

Well, in D&C 19 you have all the context you need. The Lord says, repent or you will end up in hell eternally, forever...that is all the context you need and there is no need to read anything else into that statement by the Lord. 

A common mistake is confusing personal revelation with scripture interpretation. The scripture means what the scripture means even if you never existed. There is but ONE meaning to what the Lord said and He intended the people He gave the revelation, to precisely understand it THAT way. Not 5 different ways. 

Personal revelation deals with how does a scriptural passage speaks to the particulars of your life. In what way your life, thoughts and feelings mirror a situation in a passage. You can find inspiration, courage, an increase in faith, a willingness to endure, etc in the scriptures. Context serves as an anchor for meaning so that we are sure that what it says in passage A is (or refers to) the same as what is in passage B although the text may vary somewhat and that we are clear as to what we are reading..

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3 hours ago, Islander said:

Well, in D&C 19 you have all the context you need. The Lord says, repent or you will end up in hell eternally, forever...that is all the context you need and there is no need to read anything else into that statement by the Lord. 

A common mistake is confusing personal revelation with scripture interpretation. The scripture means what the scripture means even if you never existed. There is but ONE meaning to what the Lord said and He intended the people He gave the revelation, to precisely understand it THAT way. Not 5 different ways. 

Personal revelation deals with how does a scriptural passage speaks to the particulars of your life. In what way your life, thoughts and feelings mirror a situation in a passage. You can find inspiration, courage, an increase in faith, a willingness to endure, etc in the scriptures. Context serves as an anchor for meaning so that we are sure that what it says in passage A is (or refers to) the same as what is in passage B although the text may vary somewhat and that we are clear as to what we are reading..

I'm not using personal revelation in contextualizing D&C 19, I'm using the text which anchors the meaning of the various terms referred to in this thread. A common mistake is not picking up on the context when it is articulated and explained in the scriptural text itself.

Another common mistake, as you have demonstrated, is to use words and assert meanings that aren't even there. For example, "eternally" and "forever" are not found in D&C 19, and these mean very different things than the word "eternal" as the Lord Himself contextualizes it in the section. As the Lord explain it, it is very different -- a "mystery" -- from what it has commonly with limited light been taken to mean.

Now here is where personal revelation might come in handy. In a very loose way, the light of Christ provides us a form of revelation that is not quite the same as the power or witness of the Holy Ghost. When spiritual concepts described in scripture "work upon the hearts of the children of men" it can work upon their fear or it can work upon their love of God, and in both cases it can help them become humble and turn to Him in faith. When He offers context in scripture and revelations to Joseph Smith (as in D&C 19),  it is to give those who love Him and have faith in Him greater spiritual knowledge and power unto exercising even greater faith in becoming like Him.

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53 minutes ago, CV75 said:

I'm not using personal revelation in contextualizing D&C 19, I'm using the text which anchors the meaning of the various terms referred to in this thread. A common mistake is not picking up on the context when it is articulated and explained in the scriptural text itself.

Another common mistake, as you have demonstrated, is to use words and assert meanings that aren't even there. For example, "eternally" and "forever" are not found in D&C 19, and these mean very different things than the word "eternal" as the Lord Himself contextualizes it in the section. As the Lord explain it, it is very different -- a "mystery" -- from what it has commonly with limited light been taken to mean.

Now here is where personal revelation might come in handy. In a very loose way, the light of Christ provides us a form of revelation that is not quite the same as the power or witness of the Holy Ghost. When spiritual concepts described in scripture "work upon the hearts of the children of men" it can work upon their fear or it can work upon their love of God, and in both cases it can help them become humble and turn to Him in faith. When He offers context in scripture and revelations to Joseph Smith (as in D&C 19),  it is to give those who love Him and have faith in Him greater spiritual knowledge and power unto exercising even greater faith in becoming like Him.

What you are saying is that Endless: without end, infinite is not so?, That it means something else? So, the Lord engaged in some double talk there?

Equally, eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning.

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18 hours ago, Ahab said:

Doing things for him and his cause, really? Or were they just doing things that they thought they were doing for him and his cause but those things were really not for him or his cause?  And notice that I am asking you this.

That's why I said they thought.  Apparently people, and that's many people, think they are worshipping God and trying to do good, but as it turns out not only are they so wrong about their efforts to do good, God never attempted to know them.  

18 hours ago, Ahab said:

Yeah, maybe, possibly.

Not necessarily. A person can hear from someone and not really know who or what type of person they are hearing from.  

Not necessarily. He may have even tried to get to know them, and help them to get to know him, and yet for some reason they still never really knew each other.

Thank you, or who I think you are.

Alright.  Thanks.  

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