Jump to content

The Fate of the Unredeemed


Recommended Posts

On 7/9/2020 at 4:12 AM, InCognitus said:

Who is it that gets to sit with God in his throne, as it says in Rev 3:21?  What kind of life is that?   Who gets to share in God’s power, as it says in Rev 2:26?   Why does Jesus cause specific people to bow down and worship before the feet of other people, as it says in Rev 3:8-9?  I don’t know what you call that, but that sure sounds like exalted individuals to me.

I believe Rev 3:21 and Rev 2:26 refer to exalted human beings, but not Gods.  The scriptures
use the term 'exalt' and 'exalted' many times, but never means the process of becoming a God.
The Book of Mormon only has 9 mentions of the word 'exalt'.  Again, none of them means the
process of becoming a God.

Here is one example:

2 Nephi 24:13 - "For thou hast said in thy heart: I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne 
above the stars of God; I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the 
north..."

Satan is not trying to make his throne a God.

You made a referece to Rev 3:8-9.  

"I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou 
hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.  Behold, I will make 
them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will 
make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

This is a reference to those members of the church of Philadelphia.

Do you believe those of the synagogue of Satan will worship members of the church of
Philadelphia as Gods?  Why aren't the members of all the other churches worshipped? 



A person can’t earn salvation or eternal life by their works alone because all have sinned.

This goes back to my analogy of a Christmas gift.  Can you do something to earn this Christmas
gift?

The Book of Mormon says, "...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we 
can do."

Does this mean salvation = exaltation = eternal life = a reward for doing all you can do?



But your totally passive approach to getting on an aircraft and going along for the ride flies in 
the face (pun intended) of a multitude of Bible verses that contradict the idea of sitting back 
and doing nothing and receiving eternal life.  In your view, is Jesus going to be checking 
everyone’s ticket before they board the plane, just to see if they had given food to the hungry, 
drink to the thirsty, provided accommodations to strangers, clothing to the naked, and visited 
the sick and prisoners?  Remember, there’s a “no goats allowed” sign at the gate (not even for 
an emotional support animal).

Jesus knows what we have done before the final judgment.

He said "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, 
as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but 
the goats on the left ... And these [the goats] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the 
righteous [the sheep] into life eternal."

Are you a sheep, inheriting eternal life?


 


Jesus is the aircraft:  He takes you there.  He is the fuel, and he even provides 
autopilot.  But he does expect you to receive some pilot training and for you to train and support 
others

I can agree with that.  But our training is not for us to become a God or turn others into Gods.



Being of service to 
others isn’t for you to earn the gift, it is to use the gift to be a light unto others and faithfully 
represent the gift giver by letting his light shine through you, and demonstrate that you can 
responsibly handle what you will be entrusted with.  If you do nothing in response to receiving 
the gift, you are in essence telling the gift giver that you don’t care for his gift.  It’s like 
receiving another tie for father’s day and sticking it in the closet and never wearing it.  You 
are not using it for its intended purpose.

Yes. For this reason, I believe we have eternal life in the present.



You say God “gives” us this gift “if we allow Jesus to live his life through us”.  That’s a conditional 
statement based on something you have to do:  Allow Jesus to live his life through us.  How exactly 
do you see yourself doing that?

We accept this gift by faith only.  But saving faith will produce works of faith.



The gift is an eternal 
life changing opportunity that provides “the power to become the sons of God” (John 1:12).  The end 
result of the experience provided by the gift is not something that anyone could merit solely by their 
own works, because all have sinned.  It is truly a generous gift that nobody deserves.  But it is a 
gift that must be used in order to be properly received. 

Eternal life begins the moment we place our faith in Christ.   We receive this power when
we accept the gift of the atonement.



You skipped right over my reference to Galatians 6:8.  How do you understand these verses related to 
receiving eternal life?

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the 
Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

If you are married, you are not constantly doing things to show your wife that you love 
her.  Your love for her will lead to action.  Saving faith produces works of faith.  If
you don't have a saving faith, then you won't have works of faith.

If you love me, keep my commandments.  Love must be there first.

The context of sowing and reaping must consider that Christ is giving the growth as He
lives life through you.  I plant the seed but He gives the growth.  He produces the
wheat, corn, etc, and we just do the harvest.

But I believe saved people will earn rewards.  

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall 
be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any 
man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's 
work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by 
fire." 

There is a good explanation of sowing and reaping at gotquestions.


Does this sound like the passive passenger flight to eternal life like what you described?

Paul says something similar in Romans 2:6-8

"Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in 
well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are 
contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath."

Maybe a worded the pilot analogy inappropriately.  A saving faith will produce good works.

I see the sheep (eternal life) and the goats (wrath) in that section of Romans too.

Are you a sheep, inheriting eternal life? 



My question was not, what is the sign of a saved person.   I will rephrase the question.  If a person 
is not performing good works does that mean they are not saved through faith in Christ?

If a person is not performing good works, it means that they were probably never saved in the
first place.

Based on your lack of response to my questions on Romans 8:14-17, Galatians 3:26-27,29, and
Galatians 4:4-7, it appears you do not consider yourself as being led by the Spirit of God
(thus an heir with Christ, thus a son of God).

Link to post
On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

I believe Rev 3:21 and Rev 2:26 refer to exalted human beings, but not Gods.  The scriptures use the term 'exalt' and 'exalted' many times, but never means the process of becoming a God. The Book of Mormon only has 9 mentions of the word 'exalt'.  Again, none of them means the process of becoming a God.

What do you believe God’s throne represents?   Your favorite website has an article titled:  What is the throne of God?   It says:  “A throne is a special seat reserved for a monarch. When the Bible speaks of God’s ‘throne,’ the emphasis is on God’s transcendence, dignity, and sovereign rule. The fact that His throne is in heaven further underscores the transcendent nature of God’s existence.”  The article goes on to describe what the “place” of God’s throne represents:  Power and authority, majesty and honor, perfect justice, sovereignty and holiness, praise, purity, eternal life, and grace.   I accept these as accurate descriptions of what God’s throne represents.   And it’s interesting that “eternal life” is included as one of the things God’s throne represents, since that is the topic we were discussing.

So when Jesus says (in Revelation 3:21), “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”, he is telling us that we will receive all that sitting on that throne represents.  How can it possibly be separated?  

Incidentally, since you brought up the Book of Mormon, it also teaches this doctrine:  3 Nephi 28:10: "And for this cause ye shall have fulness of joy; and ye shall sit down in the kingdom of my Father; yea, your joy shall be full, even as the Father hath given me fulness of joy; and ye shall be even as I am, and I am even as the Father; and the Father and I are one".

I realize that you don’t like the word “gods” in application to men, but it’s usage is Biblical.  We have discussed this point previously regarding Deuteronomy 10:17, where it says that God is “the God of gods and Lord of lords” (see our prior conversation here).  This teaching, that men become gods, was something the early Christians of the first three centuries widely taught in no uncertain terms.   It is at the roots of New Testament Christianity.  Why do you reject those teachings?

You went off on a tangent with the reference from 2 Nephi 24:13 which is a quotation from Isaiah 14:13, and it sounded like you were trying to make the throne itself a “God”.   In those verses it refers to Lucifer who tried to exalt his own throne, “above the stars of God”.  He was exalting himself and attempting to establish his position above the others contrary to God’s plan that requires humility and submission to “the bright and morning Star” who is Jesus Christ .  I don’t see how this reference adds anything to the discussion of God’s offering of his own throne to those who overcome in Revelation 3:21.  What did you intend by this comparison?

But to get back to the point, those who sit with God on his throne require some preparation in order to be entrusted with such a position.  They need training and experience.  How can that happen without their submission to the will of the Father in order to overcome the temptations of this world?  They need to be the kind of people who fit the behavior of those considered to be the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46.

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

You made a referece to Rev 3:8-9.  

"I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.  Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee."

This is a reference to those members of the church of Philadelphia.

Do you believe those of the synagogue of Satan will worship members of the church of Philadelphia as Gods?  Why aren't the members of all the other churches worshipped? 

Why do you try to limit this only to the church of Philadelphia?  John was commanded by Jesus to write to the “seven churches”.   “Seven” is a symbolic number that represents completeness.  Thus, John was writing to the complete and entire church, and each of the seven messages includes the statement, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches” (that’s “churches” plural).  (See:  2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, and 3:22.  That’s seven in total).  We should be listening to all the messages.   The problems that each of the churches encountered represent issues that any Christian could be faced with, and the promises are definitely applicable to all who are faithful.   But the symbolism of the church at Philadelphia is significant, because it is one of two of the seven churches that has no fault associated with it (Smyrna was the other one).   They were faithful, and as a result other humans are caused to bow down and worship them.  Who is worthy of worship?

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:
Quote

A person can’t earn salvation or eternal life by their works alone because all have sinned.

This goes back to my analogy of a Christmas gift.  Can you do something to earn this Christmas gift?

The Book of Mormon says, "...for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do."

Does this mean salvation = exaltation = eternal life = a reward for doing all you can do?

This goes back to my same answer to your same question:  Are you really receiving a Christmas gift that you never use?   Without receiving and using the gift you would never receive what the free gift ultimately provides to you.  

This is using the gift:  “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life”  (Rom 2:7).  By using the gift a person will be active in doing the will of the Father. 

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

Jesus knows what we have done before the final judgment.

He said "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left ... And these [the goats] shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous [the sheep] into life eternal."

At least you are agreeing now that it has something to do with “what we have done”.   Jesus would know if we are prepared for what he is offering us before we ever get on the airplane. 

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

Are you a sheep, inheriting eternal life?

It doesn’t matter how I answer this question because what a person says wouldn’t mean anything according to how I think you are viewing this topic.  A person may honestly believe he is a saved Christian, but as you said “If a person is not performing good works, it means that they were probably never saved in the first place.”  So in this way of thinking the only way we can know is by our good works, our fruit and our personal walk with God, or through a personal confirmation from God himself (but it’s personal).  Peter describes this as having our “calling and election made sure”, which is also the way John said that we could know we have eternal life.   But John also taught that we can know by our keeping his commandments and by our “walk” in Christ:  “But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.” (1 John 2:5-6)

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:
Quote
Jesus is the aircraft:  He takes you there.  He is the fuel, and he even provides autopilot.  But he does expect you to receive some pilot training and for you to train and support others

I can agree with that.  But our training is not for us to become a God or turn others into Gods.

Why, because you don’t like the word “gods”?   Or for some other reason?

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

Yes. For this reason, I believe we have eternal life in the present.

As I said previously,  there is a sense in which we have eternal life now in that we have the gift presented to us (as in me saying that I have the Tahiti package deal in my analogy).   But for as many verses that say we have eternal life in the present tense, there are at least as many and more of that number saying that it is something that won’t be received fully until a future point in time.  The scriptures talk of the “hope of eternal life” and the need to endure to receive it.

As one example:  “Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.” (Jude 1:21)

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

"For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

If you are married, you are not constantly doing things to show your wife that you love her.  Your love for her will lead to action.  Saving faith produces works of faith.  If you don't have a saving faith, then you won't have works of faith.

If you love me, keep my commandments.  Love must be there first.

I agree with you here.   But the key phrase is “saving faith”.  The kind of faith that saves is one that is accompanied by good works.  Faith that is alone without works that follow, is a dead faith and can’t save. 

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

The context of sowing and reaping must consider that Christ is giving the growth as He lives life through you.  I plant the seed but He gives the growth.  He produces the wheat, corn, etc, and we just do the harvest.

I think you have this backward.  Jesus plants the seed, and we can’t bear fruit unless we abide in the vine, or we will only bear fruit as determined by the kind of soil we nurture for the seed (to use a different parable).  And we can’t do anything without Jesus.  Previously you said this is conditional on something we have to do, by allowing Jesus to live his life through us.   Obviously there has to be a difference in how people “allow” Jesus to work in them, because otherwise everyone would be doing works perfectly since Jesus is perfect.  But instead we have people bearing fruit “some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold” (Matt 13:8), and some not at all.  This is obviously not Jesus’ fault, so it has to be something with how we respond to the gift and how we use what we are given.

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

But I believe saved people will earn rewards.  

I also believe saved people will earn rewards according to their works (but sometimes the rewards are bad, as in Hebrews 2:1–3) but being saved from the effects of the fall may not mean the same thing as receiving eternal life.

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 

Look at the context of 1 Corinthians chapter 3.  Paul is talking about work in the ministry of building up the church of God (a discussion that is grounded in his concern over their divisions and breaking off into groups following after different leaders that began in chapter 1.  i.e. “I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ”).   As he says starting in verse 9 of chapter 3:   “For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building”.  Paul says he is the wise masterbuilder, and he laid the foundation of the ministry at Corinth, and others in the ministry build upon that foundation.  So the verses you quoted from 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 have nothing to do with salvation in Christ or the kind of works that have anything to do with that kind of salvation.  It’s about the works in the ministry by those who minister in the church and what they do to build up the church. 

On 7/12/2020 at 10:27 AM, theplains said:

Based on your lack of response to my questions on Romans 8:14-17, Galatians 3:26-27,29, and Galatians 4:4-7, it appears you do not consider yourself as being led by the Spirit of God
(thus an heir with Christ, thus a son of God).

Since it appears that you didn’t consider these to be rhetorical questions (as I did), I will give you the same answer here as I gave earlier:  What I say here doesn’t matter.  My personal walk with God is not up for discussion or debate on a public message board.  I may choose to relate experiences that I have had with God and bear testimony of his hand in my life on this board from time to time when there is an occasion to do so.  But God is the one who knows my heart and knows how he is leading me, and that’s all that really matters to me.  And fortunately he doesn’t judge my standing as a son of God by my not responding to a personal question on a public message board.  For me to discuss my personal standing with God here would be (in my mind) like praying on a street corner to be seen of men.  That’s just not my style and I’m not comfortable doing that.

In addition, I addressed those verses previously when I pointed out that there were conditional statements associated with what it means to be a son of God.  We are considered to be a son of God here and now by our believing in Jesus by following his teachings and it is evident in our behavior.  But the inheritance of eternal life isn’t fully received until the resurrection and final judgment, and that’s when the book of Revelation says: “He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” (Rev 21:7)

Edited by InCognitus
  • Like 2
Link to post
On 6/12/2020 at 8:22 AM, stemelbow said:

I've found myself quite curious why God keeps telling us that He doesn't know many of us.  He says it in the gospels too.  It makes the modern religionists view of things seems silly, though.  For instance, Pres Nelson touted the notion that we're all known to God.  But in truth many of us are not...and we don't know which of us are not known to Him.  Odd too that here he is claiming that all those who don't know HIm are those who aren't known by Him.  Odd in that no one really does know Him.  I mean in the facile pretend way many claim to know him, but it appears to me, those who claim to know him really just know of him, and seem forced to think their meager conception of who he might be is enough to claim they really know him.  

What a twisted knot it is to believe these days.  Scripture is a real problem in many ways.  Luckily most believers just ignore much of it.  

The Greek translations of egnõn tries to mirror the sentiment of the Hebrew way-ye-da, which impies intimacy (c.f Gen 4:17, 25 also Matt 1:25), in depth knowledge of and close relationship with the person. It must be understood within the context of the omniscience of Christ; for as the omniscient God he knew their persons and their works, and that they were workers of iniquity. He knew what they had been doing all their days under the guise of religion; he knew the principles of all their actions, motivation and the views they had in all they did. But, as words of knowledge often carry in them the ideas of affection, and approbation, see (Psalm 1:6 and 2 Tim 2:19) the meaning of Christ here is, I never had any love, or affection for you; I never made any account of you, as mine, as belonging to me; I never approved of you, nor your conduct; I never had a relationship or society with you, nor you with me. 

It is critical to realize that we can NOT earn our way to heaven by "doing" stuff (the outward performance). The "doing" will not carry us very far. It is the "becoming", the "being" a new creature, carrying and sharing the pure love if Christ in our hearts in our daily walk as we embark in His work, taking the Gospel throughout all the earth. Short of that we are nothing. 

   

 

Edited by Islander
  • Like 1
Link to post
8 hours ago, Islander said:

The Greek translations of egnõn tries to mirror the sentiment of the Hebrew way-ye-da, which impies intimacy (c.f Gen 4:17, 25 also Matt 1:25), in depth knowledge of and close relationship with the person. It must be understood within the context of the omniscience of Christ; for as the omniscient God he knew their persons and their works, and that they were workers of iniquity. He knew what they had been doing all their days under the guise of religion; he knew the principles of all their actions, motivation and the views they had in all they did. But, as words of knowledge often carry in them the ideas of affection, and approbation, see (Psalm 1:6 and 2 Tim 2:19) the meaning of Christ here is, I never had any love, or affection for you; I never made any account of you, as mine, as belonging to me; I never approved of you, nor your conduct; I never had a relationship or society with you, nor you with me. 

 

   

 

Yes, that's what I'm getting at.  It appears there are many of us whom God never has had love for, and there seems little we are going to do about it, because from before this world was, He never loved, knew or cared for us.  Only those whom he first already cared for, in some sense, are able to be saved and that's all dependent on Him giving them their chance, I suppose.  

 

Quote

It is critical to realize that we can NOT earn our way to heaven by "doing" stuff (the outward performance). The "doing" will not carry us very far. It is the "becoming", the "being" a new creature, carrying and sharing the pure love if Christ in our hearts in our daily walk as we embark in His work, taking the Gospel throughout all the earth. Short of that we are nothing. 

Is the becoming and being completely dependent on God making us?  Curious because if so, you seem to be explaining my point quite well.  It is not us doing something, but God deciding to change us (or whatever).

Link to post
10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Yes, that's what I'm getting at.  It appears there are many of us whom God never has had love for, and there seems little we are going to do about it, because from before this world was, He never loved, knew or cared for us.  Only those whom he first already cared for, in some sense, are able to be saved and that's all dependent on Him giving them their chance, I suppose.  

 

Is the becoming and being completely dependent on God making us?  Curious because if so, you seem to be explaining my point quite well.  It is not us doing something, but God deciding to change us (or whatever).

Well, friend, God is inviting you to come to Him and be reconciled with Him thru the Atoning blood of His son. We are ALL fallen creatures that have sinned against a Holy God. But Christ died on the cross that if we believe in Him, turn our lives into His hands and realize that He is our ONLY hope for salvation, we may then be adopted into His family.

You have response-ability to heed to His calling. Even today, as you read this lines,  there are questions, restlessness in your heart that you're ignoring. Otherwise, why else would you be here? Be it pride, denial or your predilection for a particular sin(s), you are resisting His invitation. He does love you. He died for you and Atoned for your sins on the cross that you may be saved and would not perish. He is offering you, freely, the gift of eternal life. But He paid for it with His own life! The question is, will you heed to his invitation or choose to reject it in favor of a life, present and future, away from Him? Knowing what the future holds for those that believe and those that refuse, I wonder if you would be honest and humble enough to recognize what is truly in your heart, my friend. 

  • Like 1
Link to post
On 6/12/2020 at 1:22 PM, Ahab said:

You don't even claim to know God, do you?  And it seems to me that your idea of who and what he is isn't quite right, so even if you do claim to know him, at this point, I don't think you really do.  And maybe God doesn't really know you either, at this point, even though you spent time in heaven with him before you were born on Earth.  Maybe he thought he knew you, or maybe he did know you then, but now you have changed from how you were then and it isn't clear to him how you will turn out to be.  

The idea that Goes knows everything doesn't necessarily mean he knows each person individually.  I believe he knows every attribute we can develop, out of all of the possibilities, but maybe he doesn't know how we will turn out, yet.

The God that we worship is omniscient. He knows absolutely everything. For Him, that exists outside time and space, the future already happened.

Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed (1 Samuel 2:3).

O LORD, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, O LORD, you know it completely. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it (Psalm 139:1-6).

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5).

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things (1 John 3:20).

Known to God from eternity are all his works (Acts 15:18).

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out (Romans 11:33).

Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure (Psalm 147:5).

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8,9)

Do you know the balance of the clouds, those wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge (Job 37:16).

And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever (1 Chronicles 28:9).

This are just a few. 

Link to post
On 7/22/2020 at 5:25 PM, Islander said:

Well, friend, God is inviting you to come to Him and be reconciled with Him thru the Atoning blood of His son.

Where is He?  Or are you saying since you're telling me that means God is actually inviting me?  

On 7/22/2020 at 5:25 PM, Islander said:

We are ALL fallen creatures that have sinned against a Holy God. But Christ died on the cross that if we believe in Him, turn our lives into His hands and realize that He is our ONLY hope for salvation, we may then be adopted into His family.

It's simply not a reasonable position to take.  God created creatures knowing they would fall and then decided to send another God to suffer so others can be saved?  

On 7/22/2020 at 5:25 PM, Islander said:

You have response-ability to heed to His calling. Even today, as you read this lines,  there are questions, restlessness in your heart that you're ignoring. Otherwise, why else would you be here? Be it pride, denial or your predilection for a particular sin(s), you are resisting His invitation. He does love you. He died for you and Atoned for your sins on the cross that you may be saved and would not perish. He is offering you, freely, the gift of eternal life. But He paid for it with His own life! The question is, will you heed to his invitation or choose to reject it in favor of a life, present and future, away from Him? Knowing what the future holds for those that believe and those that refuse, I wonder if you would be honest and humble enough to recognize what is truly in your heart, my friend. 

How are you sure it's God's invitation?  it sounds like its your invitation.  Perhaps you are simply wrong, and are trying to get me to agree to something foolish.  Who really knows?  

Link to post
23 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Where is He?  Or are you saying since you're telling me that means God is actually inviting me?  

It's simply not a reasonable position to take.  God created creatures knowing they would fall and then decided to send another God to suffer so others can be saved?  

How are you sure it's God's invitation?  it sounds like its your invitation.  Perhaps you are simply wrong, and are trying to get me to agree to something foolish.  Who really knows?  

As Isaiah said back in his day, his (our Lord's) arms are stretched out still.  And I can testify that his arms are still stretched out, metaphorically, inviting all people to come (or come back) to him.

And no you do not need to just taker my word for it, or someone else's word for it.  You can just go to him, metaphorically, by opening your heart to him, metaphorically, and just hanging out with him, metaphorically.

Just open your heart and mind, metaphorically, by asking our Father in heaven to commune with you in the name of Jesus Christ and then you will suddenly be with them, metaphorically, wherever they are.

It is so easy that anybody can do it.

Link to post
On 7/22/2020 at 8:33 PM, Islander said:

The God that we worship is omniscient. He knows absolutely everything. For Him, that exists outside time and space, the future already happened.

Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed (1 Samuel 2:3).

O LORD, you have searched me and known me. You know when I sit down and when I rise up; you discern my thoughts from far away. You search out my path and my lying down, and are acquainted with all my ways. Even before a word is on my tongue, O LORD, you know it completely. You hem me in, behind and before, and lay your hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is so high that I cannot attain it (Psalm 139:1-6).

Great is our Lord, and mighty in power; his understanding is infinite (Psalm 147:5).

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things (1 John 3:20).

Known to God from eternity are all his works (Acts 15:18).

Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out (Romans 11:33).

Great is our Lord, and abundant in power; his understanding is beyond measure (Psalm 147:5).

For my thoughts are not your thoughts, nor are your ways my ways, says the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts (Isaiah 55:8,9)

Do you know the balance of the clouds, those wondrous works of him who is perfect in knowledge (Job 37:16).

And you, my son Solomon, acknowledge the God of your father, and serve him with wholehearted devotion and with a willing mind, for the LORD searches every heart and understands every motive behind the thoughts. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever (1 Chronicles 28:9).

This are just a few. 

I was trying to help him understand why God said he would say to some people at their final day of judgement: "I never knew you."

Are you familiar with those scriptures I am referring to?  If God knows every person, always has and always will even before they are born, then how could he ever say he doesn't know someone?

Link to post
On 7/19/2020 at 4:02 AM, InCognitus said:

What do you believe God’s throne represents?   Your favorite website has an article titled:  What is the throne of God?   It says:  “A throne is a special seat reserved for a monarch. When the Bible speaks of God’s ‘throne,’ the emphasis is on God’s transcendence, dignity, and sovereign rule. The fact that His throne is in heaven further underscores the transcendent nature of God’s existence.”  The article goes on to describe what the “place” of God’s throne represents:  Power and authority, majesty and honor, perfect justice, sovereignty and holiness, praise, purity, eternal life, and grace.   I accept these as accurate descriptions of what God’s throne represents.   And it’s interesting that “eternal life” is included as one of the things God’s throne represents, since that is the topic we were discussing.

I looked at the link you provided but there is no indication that a resurrected human 
on the throne of God means an exaltation to godhood. I agree with the several different
meanings that a throne could represent (given the correct context).  My preferences are
a position and the status of an individual.

Isaiah says "For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt 
my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, 
in the sides of the north."

From this we know that Satan has a throne, but he is not transcendent and he is not a deity.

Matthew 5:34 gives a more expansive view of God's throne - "Swear not at all; neither by 
heaven; for it is God's throne:

Matthew 19:28 and Luke 22:30 says the 12 disciples would sit upon thrones judging the twelve
tribes of Israel.  There is no such thing for the Nephite disciples.

Revelation makes another reference to many in the Millenium who will sit on thrones but
they are not deities.

In the Bible, Moses and Satan are referred to as gods.  Do you believe Moses and Satan are 
deities?

Are you able to find one example of 'exalt' or 'exalted' in the Book of Mormon or Bible where
becoming a deity is the intended meaning?


So when Jesus says (in Revelation 3:21), “To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I 


also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.”, he is telling us that we will receive all that sitting 
on that throne represents.  How can it possibly be separated?

 

I know from studying LDS theology, that Heavenly Father was a man who became a god, but I
don't believe this.  As Revelation 1:6 mentions, we are made kings and priests, but this is
not an indication of us becoming deities.

I explained more about thrones earlier.


I realize that you don’t like the word “gods” in application to men, but it’s usage is Biblical.  We have discussed 


this point previously regarding Deuteronomy 10:17, where it says that God is “the God of gods and Lord of lords” (see 
our prior conversation here).  This teaching, that men become gods, was something the early Christians of the first 
three centuries widely taught in no uncertain terms.   It is at the roots of New Testament Christianity.  Why do you 
reject those teachings?

I don't mind using the word "gods" in application to certain people (see above) as long as 
the proper context is applied.  Even the 1997 Gospel Principles refers to Heavenly Father 
as being a god.

https://ia800509.us.archive.org/27/items/GospelPrinciples1997/Gospel Principles 1997.pdf

"All good things come from God. Everything that he does is to help his children become like 
him-a god. He has said, "Behold, this is my work and my glory-to bring to pass the immortality 
and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39) (page 9).

The current version of Gospel Principles removed the reference the Heavenly Father as 'a god.'

Israelite judges were regarded as gods but God pronounced judgment on them (Psalm 82:6).


You went off on a tangent with the reference from 2 Nephi 24:13 which is a quotation from Isaiah 14:13, and it sounded 


like you were trying to make the throne itself a “God”.   In those verses it refers to Lucifer who tried to exalt his 
own throne, “above the stars of God”.  He was exalting himself and attempting to establish his position above the 
others contrary to God’s plan that requires humility and submission to “the bright and morning Star” who is Jesus 
Christ .  I don’t see how this reference adds anything to the discussion of God’s offering of his own throne to those 
who overcome in Revelation 3:21.  What did you intend by this comparison?

I meant to say that Lucifer was trying to exalt his own throne above the stars of God, 
but he was not meaning that he would become a deity.


But to get back to the point, those who sit with God on his throne require some preparation in order to be entrusted 


with such a position.  They need training and experience.  How can that happen without their submission to the will 
of the Father in order to overcome the temptations of this world?  They need to be the kind of people who fit the 
behavior of those considered to be the sheep in Matthew 25:31-46.

Yes.  The sheep inherit eternal life; the goats do not.  According to what I have read in 
LDS theology, eternal life is exaltation - living life as a god (but I guess this does not 
apply to a god in embryo - which a former LDS President teaches humans currently are).


Why do you try to limit this only to the church of Philadelphia?  John was commanded by Jesus to write to the “seven 


churches”.   “Seven” is a symbolic number that represents completeness.  Thus, John was writing to the complete and 
entire church, and each of the seven messages includes the statement, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit 
saith unto the churches” (that’s “churches” plural).  (See:  2:7, 2:11, 2:17, 2:29, 3:6, 3:13, and 3:22.  That’s seven 
in total).  We should be listening to all the messages.   The problems that each of the churches encountered represent 
issues that any Christian could be faced with, and the promises are definitely applicable to all who are faithful.   
But the symbolism of the church at Philadelphia is significant, because it is one of two of the seven churches that 
has no fault associated with it (Smyrna was the other one).   They were faithful, and as a result other humans are 
caused to bow down and worship them.  Who is worthy of worship?

The letters to the 7 churches are specifically for them.   The words to the church of
Philadephia are applicable only to them.  That's why I limited my comments to only that
church.  For example, the word to the church of Ephesus was "Nevertheless I have somewhat 
against thee, because thou hast left thy first love."  This is not applicable to the 
Philadelphia church.  Then we see the word to the church of Pergamos - "But I have a few 
things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who 
taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed 
unto idols, and to commit fornication."  This is not applicable to the Philadelphia church.   

We should listen to all the messages given to all the 7 churches but each received their
own commendation and their own rebuke.

"Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, 
but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that 
I have loved thee."

They are worshipping *before* them; they are not worshipping them.

Who is worthy of worship?  Only God.  Does God approve of worship of a man or a false god?  
No. See Exodus 20:1-5.

Do I worship an exalted man (a man who became the Heavenly Father of planet Earth)?  No.
I worship God who has always been God.


This goes back to my same answer to your same question:  Are you really receiving a Christmas gift that you never use?   


Without receiving and using the gift you would never receive what the free gift ultimately provides to you.  

This is using the gift:  “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, 
eternal life”  (Rom 2:7).  By using the gift a person will be active in doing the will of the Father. 

I gave a key chain once to a female missionary from Taiwan.  She didn't do anything
to deserve it.  We only met two times.  But out of the goodness of my heart, I wanted
to give it to her so she could eventually learn that my gift was accepted apart from
any merit of her own.  If she wants to use it or not that is up to her, but she accepted
my free gift.

I have received many a Christmas gift which I did not use, but I accepted them all. I
did nothing of my own merits to get them.  I just accepted them.  Fortunately God knows
better and he knows we need the gift of eternal life.  But I can never ever do anything
to merit it, but just to accept it by faith.



In addition, I addressed those verses previously when I pointed out that there were conditional statements associated 
with what it means to be a son of God.  We are considered to be a son of God here and now by our believing in Jesus by 
following his teachings and it is evident in our behavior.  But the inheritance of eternal life isn’t fully received 
until the resurrection and final judgment, and that’s when the book of Revelation says: “He that overcometh shall inherit 
all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.” (Rev 21:7)

I'll bold some key words and phrases below.

Romans 8:14  For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  ... but 
ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.  The Spirit itself 
beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then 
heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ
; if so be that we suffer with him, that we 
may be also glorified together. 

Do you see any people other than Christ's sheep in those verses?

Link to post
31 minutes ago, Ahab said:

As Isaiah said back in his day, his (our Lord's) arms are stretched out still.  And I can testify that his arms are still stretched out, metaphorically, inviting all people to come (or come back) to him.

And no you do not need to just taker my word for it, or someone else's word for it.  You can just go to him, metaphorically, by opening your heart to him, metaphorically, and just hanging out with him, metaphorically.

Just open your heart and mind, metaphorically, by asking our Father in heaven to commune with you in the name of Jesus Christ and then you will suddenly be with them, metaphorically, wherever they are.

It is so easy that anybody can do it.

Awesome!  So I simply assume, metaphorically, God is there and Jesus saved me?  Sounds like believing in something is really just pretending.  

Link to post
3 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Awesome!  So I simply assume, metaphorically, God is there and Jesus saved me?  Sounds like believing in something is really just pretending.  

No, because if you're just pretending then you really don't believe it is true.

Link to post
32 minutes ago, Ahab said:

No, because if you're just pretending then you really don't believe it is true.

If I don't believe and follow your steps then I'm just pretending anyways.  hm....feels as though I'm at an impasse.  Can't believe unless I pretend to believe, and can't pretend to believe because that's just not very good or sincere.  

Link to post
15 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

If I don't believe and follow your steps then I'm just pretending anyways.  hm....feels as though I'm at an impasse.  Can't believe unless I pretend to believe, and can't pretend to believe because that's just not very good or sincere.  

Okay.  So you're stuck. I hope you'll eventually figure out how to get unstuck so that you will then know what you should do to be able to sincerely believe.

Link to post
7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay.  So you're stuck. I hope you'll eventually figure out how to get unstuck so that you will then know what you should do to be able to sincerely believe.

Encouraging words from a true believer.  

Link to post
Just now, stemelbow said:

Encouraging words from a true believer.  

Well, I did try to tell you, already, but that didn't seem to do it for you.  Even when I said it was so easy that anybody can do it.  So you'll just need to figure out how to get yourself unstuck now. It will be good for you.  Savor the moments.

Link to post
2 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Well, I did try to tell you, already, but that didn't seem to do it for you.  Even when I said it was so easy that anybody can do it.  So you'll just need to figure out how to get yourself unstuck now. It will be good for you.  Savor the moments.

But you can't give me a reason for any of it.  Sounds like misery.  

Link to post
1 minute ago, stemelbow said:

But you can't give me a reason for any of it.  Sounds like misery.  

Okay.  Speak slowly now.  Reason for... what???

Link to post
5 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Reason to believe.  

The best reason I can think of for believing in any idea is because I want to know and believe what is true.  Until I know, an idea is either true or not true, and I don't know how to tell the difference unless God helps me to know what is true.

I mean, sure, without God I could just guess I suppose and I would then have a 50% chance that what I choose to believe is true, but why settle for guess work when with God I can know for sure?

Link to post
4 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Where is He?  Or are you saying since you're telling me that means God is actually inviting me?  

It's simply not a reasonable position to take.  God created creatures knowing they would fall and then decided to send another God to suffer so others can be saved?  

How are you sure it's God's invitation?  it sounds like its your invitation.  Perhaps you are simply wrong, and are trying to get me to agree to something foolish.  Who really knows?  

My invitation is His invitation. I am His disciple, one call to proclaim His Gospel.  

I have 6 children whom I love beyond words. They have and will make mistakes but I love them no less on account of their shortcomings.  Trial and error,  but my love is constant and not dependent on their choices.  And that is the evidence of my love. Life is designed to provide a learning and a proving ground and faith the evidence of our love for our Father in Heaven.

The relation with a supernatural Being will only be proven by faith. It is up to you to decide if you want experience that relationship. Those are His terms. The invitation remains and is open to your response-abilty. 

Given what we know about the universe, it is quite reasinable to believe that it was set in motion by a superior intelligence.  

Link to post
4 hours ago, Ahab said:

I was trying to help him understand why God said he would say to some people at their final day of judgement: "I never knew you."

Are you familiar with those scriptures I am referring to?  If God knows every person, always has and always will even before they are born, then how could he ever say he doesn't know someone?

I just did. To "know" as in a close, intimate relationship, a familiar relationship. 

Of course He is the Judge of all the earth. And He knows ALL our deeds. 

Link to post
2 minutes ago, Islander said:

I just did. To "know" as in a close, intimate relationship, a familiar relationship. 

Do you ever wish God's prophets, the ones who write scripture, would write their inspired ideas down so clearly as to make them very simply and very easily understood, correctly?  Sometimes I do. 

But it seems God would rather us work at it at least a little bit, not just by trying to understand the words of his prophets, but also by receiving personal inspiration from the Holy Ghost to us, personally.

As if it takes us being a prophet, ourselves, to be able to correctly understand others who are also God's prophets.  I think that is what we are talking about here.

2 minutes ago, Islander said:

Of course He is the Judge of all the earth. And He knows ALL our deeds. 

And yet he doesn't seem to know some of us as well as he knows others of us, or at least that is the impression some of us have.

Link to post
49 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Do you ever wish God's prophets, the ones who write scripture, would write their inspired ideas down so clearly as to make them very simply and very easily understood, correctly?  Sometimes I do. 

But it seems God would rather us work at it at least a little bit, not just by trying to understand the words of his prophets, but also by receiving personal inspiration from the Holy Ghost to us, personally.

As if it takes us being a prophet, ourselves, to be able to correctly understand others who are also God's prophets.  I think that is what we are talking about here.

And yet he doesn't seem to know some of us as well as he knows others of us, or at least that is the impression some of us have.

how great the holiness of our God! For he knowers all things and there is not anything save he knows it. (2 Nephi 9)
It’s clear that that Lord perfectly understands his children and has a perfect understanding of what makes each one of them tick. In the verse in question, it needs to be understood that the Lord is speaking as one man speaks to another and is simply saying, ‘if you don’t make any attempt to have a healthy, loving, reciprocating relationship with me, I’m not going to pretend we are intimate friends.’ 

Edited by teddyaware
Link to post
1 hour ago, Ahab said:

Do you ever wish God's prophets, the ones who write scripture, would write their inspired ideas down so clearly as to make them very simply and very easily understood, correctly?  Sometimes I do. 

But it seems God would rather us work at it at least a little bit, not just by trying to understand the words of his prophets, but also by receiving personal inspiration from the Holy Ghost to us, personally.

As if it takes us being a prophet, ourselves, to be able to correctly understand others who are also God's prophets.  I think that is what we are talking about here.

And yet he doesn't seem to know some of us as well as he knows others of us, or at least that is the impression some of us have.

Rather, some have sought to cultivate a closer, loving, joyful relationship with Him. Some don't. But His hands are open to all that would come to Him.

"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."      John 6:37

Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...