Co-vid 19: What Is and Isn't Known, Discussion and Debate

[USU78]

Never mind

Edited June 30, 2020 by USU78

[smac97]

1. Wall Street Journal:

Quote

U.S. Coronavirus Cases Surge Amid Strains on Hospitals
Several states and locales pause or roll back their reopening plans

A surge in coronavirus cases in parts of the U.S. has prompted several states and locales to pause or roll back reopening as some hospital systems began groaning under the strain.

2. TheWeek.com:

Quote

Nearly one-third of ICU coronavirus patients in a Houston hospital system are reportedly under 50
June 29, 2020

Texas has emerged as one of the United States' coronavirus hot spots in recent weeks, and data shows the recent spike doesn't completely match up with the early days of the pandemic in terms of demographics.

Back in April, when the virus first peaked, most of the patients testing positive in the Houston Methodist Hospital system were over 50, The New York Times reports. Now, the majority are reportedly relatively young. And while it's widely believed younger, healthier people are at a lower risk of developing severe infections or dying, there are no guarantees. In the Methodist system, nearly one-third of intensive care patients are under 50, which the Times notes is higher than the previous surge.

3. AP News:

Quote

States reverse openings, require masks amid virus resurgence
By TAMARA LUSH and EMILY SCHMALL

Arizona’s Republican governor shut down bars, movie theaters, gyms and water parks Monday and leaders in several states ordered residents to wear masks in public in a dramatic course reversal amid an alarming resurgence of coronavirus cases nationwide.

Among those implementing the face-covering orders is the city of Jacksonville, Florida, where mask-averse President Donald Trump plans to accept the Republican nomination in August. Trump has refused to wear a mask during visits to states and businesses that require them.

Arizona Gov. Doug Ducey’s order went into effect immediately and for at least 30 days. Ducey also ordered public schools to delay the start of classes until at least Aug. 17. Most Arizona bars and nightclubs opened after the governor’s stay-at-home and business closure orders were allowed to expire in mid-May.

Arizona health officials reported 3,858 more confirmed coronavirus cases Sunday, the most reported in a single day in the state so far and the seventh time in the past 10 days that daily cases surpassed the 3,000 mark. Since the pandemic began, 74,500 cases and 1,588 deaths stemming from the virus have been reported in Arizona.

4. StudyFinds.org:

Quote

Asymptomatic COVID-19 carriers easily contaminate their surroundings, study shows

It doesn’t matter if you feel sick or you feel like a million bucks. Even asymptomatic COVID-19 patients can not only infect others directly, but also contaminate the surrounding environment. That’s the conclusion drawn from a new study using Chinese data.

The study’s authors say their findings emphasize the importance of hospitals properly cleaning all areas touched or inhabited by all COVID-19 patients.

“Placement of COVID-19 patients in rooms with negative pressure may bring a false feeling of safety and rigorous environment cleaning should be emphasized,” writes lead study author Zhiyong Zong, from the Department of Infection Control at West China Hospital.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Meadowchik]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

This is all so devastating, but knowing things are helpful to keep the anxiety low, but some states are not so low, so hopefully it helps people be more conscientious with their choices. 

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/03/16/816707182/map-tracking-the-spread-of-the-coronavirus-in-the-u-s?utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=npr&utm_term=nprnews&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR2RVIlrkyJas59C8QEz3oFwu7tc6BZArC4zejtl65lmvaDXV3_JA2SVAMk

The link below shows comparisons in a color coded way. And compares the west or south etc. 

https://covidbystate.org/?fbclid=IwAR1_RRdtSoNau6F5dY01xJ1tHiVlPsyFaoAqwoHGLywyW1vHxd9voU7aB4w#/NV-ID-MT-WY-CO-UT

 

I like the individual state information, actually prefer it, since it gives individual people a better idea of what they are dealing with personally in their own state and community.

[Calm]

Looks like Pogi has some heavy workdays in his future:

https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/06/18/879787448/as-states-reopen-do-they-have-the-workforce-they-need-to-stop-coronavirus-outbre

[smac97]

Deleted per Calm's request.

Edited June 30, 2020 by smac97

[bluebell]

Just saw this this morning.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/most-people-coronavirus-wont-spread-121034275.html

Quote

 

As strange as it may seem, these reports don’t contradict each other. Most infected people don’t pass on the coronavirus to someone else. But a small number pass it on to many others in so-called superspreading events.

“You can think about throwing a match at kindling,” said Ben Althouse, principal research scientist at the Institute for Disease Modeling in Bellevue, Washington. “You throw one match, it may not light the kindling. You throw another match, it may not light the kindling. But then one match hits in the right spot, and all of a sudden the fire goes up.”

Understanding why some matches start fires while many do not will be crucial to curbing the pandemic, scientists say. “Otherwise, you’re in the position where you’re always one step behind the virus,” said Adam Kucharski, an epidemiologist at the London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine.

When the virus first emerged in China, epidemiologists scrambled to understand how it spread from person to person. One of their first tasks was to estimate the average number of people each sick person infected, or what epidemiologists call the reproductive number.

The new coronavirus turned out to have a reproductive number somewhere between two and three. It’s impossible to pin down an exact figure, since people’s behavior can make it easier or harder for the virus to spread. By going into lockdown, for instance, Massachusetts drove its reproductive number down from 2.2 at the beginning of March to 1 by the end of the month; it’s now at 0.74.

This averaged figure can also be misleading because it masks the variability of spread from one person to the next. If 9 out of 10 people don’t pass on a virus at all, while the 10th passes it to 20 people, the average would still be two.

In some diseases, such as influenza and smallpox, a large fraction of infected people pass on the pathogen to a few more. These diseases tend to grow steadily and slowly. “Flu can really plod along,” said Kristin Nelson, an associate professor at Emory University.

But other diseases, like measles and severe acute respiratory syndrome, or SARS, are prone to sudden flares, with only a few infected people spreading the disease.

Epidemiologists capture the difference between the flare-ups and the plodding with something known as the dispersion parameter. It is a measure of how much variation there is from person to person in transmitting a pathogen.

But James Lloyd-Smith, a UCLA disease ecologist who developed the dispersion parameter 15 years ago, cautioned that just because scientists can measure it doesn’t mean they understand why some diseases have more superspreading than others. “We just understand the bits of it,” he said.

When COVID-19 broke out, Kucharski and his colleagues tried to calculate that number by comparing cases in different countries.

If COVID-19 was like the flu, you’d expect the outbreaks in different places to be mostly the same size. But Kucharski and his colleagues found a wide variation. The best way to explain this pattern, they found, was that 10% of infected people were responsible for 80% of new infections. Which meant that most people passed on the virus to few, if any, others.

 

Thought it was interesting.

[Calm]

In case it wasn’t clear from the title and tags, I want this thread to be focusing on the medical side of Covid and not the political.  Political comments will be asked to be deleted by mods as there are many threads for that. I want this as more a resource for the understanding the virus. 
 

Thank you. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Calm

[smac97]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Quote

Some salient thoughts on the threat to civil liberties that we currently face:

Thanks,

-Smac

Wrong thread as this is to be focused on characteristics of Covid, how it is spreading, its physical effects, etc...there are plenty threads on civil liberties, if previous ones were missed, it was because I didn’t realize what thread this was (can’t see title on my phone unless I scroll up).

The OP said: "I am opened to anything Covid being discussed here as long as it isn't taking the original topic with it."  

The article is about "state{s} of emergency" declared in response to COVID.  I thought that made it pretty on-topic.  However, it's your thread, and I'll give you deference in defining its scope.

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Please delete and move post to another thread.  Anyone else discussing the political side of the pandemic, please go elsewhere. I will start asking mods to delete posts in a bit, they may choose to ban posters instead. 

That seems sort of extreme.  I'll refrain from further discussion about my previous post.  Would that be sufficient?

Thanks,

-Smac

[smac97]

Hmm:

Quote

Coronavirus: could it be burning out after 20% of a population is infected?
June 29, 2020 8.59am EDT

More than half a million people have died from COVID-19 globally. It is a major tragedy, but perhaps not on the scale some initially feared. And there are finally signs that the pandemic is shuddering in places, as if its engine is running out of fuel. This has encouraged many governments to relinquish lockdowns and allow everyday life to restart, albeit gingerly.

The spread of SARS-CoV-2 has been difficult to predict and understand. On the Diamond Princess cruise ship, for example, where the virus is likely to have spread relatively freely through the air-conditioning system linking cabins, only 20% of passengers and crew were infected. Data from military ships and cities such as Stockholm, New York and London also suggest that infections have been around 20% – much lower than earlier mathematical models suggested.

This has led to speculation about whether a population can achieve some sort of immunity to the virus with as little as 20% infected – a proportion well below the widely accepted herd immunity threshold (60-70%).

The entire article is worth a read.

Thanks,

-Smac

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, smac97 said:

The OP said: "I am opened to anything Covid being discussed here as long as it isn't taking the original topic with it."  

The article is about "state{s} of emergency" declared in response to COVID.  I thought that made it pretty on-topic.  However, it's your thread, and I'll give you deference in defining its scope.

That seems sort of extreme.  I'll refrain from further discussion about my previous post.  Would that be sufficient?

Thanks,

-Smac

Not really as others will want to respond to it. Please delete. I am sorry I wasn’t clearer about what I meant. I thought the title was on point enough. 

[bluebell]

5 minutes ago, USU78 said:

So ... it's politico-medical theater designed to address anxieties without much substance outside a clinic setting?

It really seems to depend on who you ask, and what kind of mask you are wearing.  I've read many contradicting articles, in mainstream publications, on the topic which is probably why the whole mask thing is such a mess right now.

[USU78]

4 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It really seems to depend on who you ask, and what kind of mask you are wearing.  I've read many contradicting articles, in mainstream publications, on the topic which is probably why the whole mask thing is such a mess right now.

No argument here.

[Calm]

Quote

. The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimum

I am guessing this article believes infections are being passed around in homes where few wear masks and health care facilities?  

But it could just be sloppy writing due to the comment was merely part of the introduction of the theme of the article, which was universal masking at hospitals.  It was not meant to deal in detail with other circumstances.

This ignores that extended discussions happen in offices, stores (my husband runs into students all the time when shopping), parties, etc and longer close encounters happen in many settings such as gyms, hair and beauty care, etc. 

Then there are the demonstrated clusters from unmasked church gatherings.

Limiting masks to solely health care facilities (I assume this includes doctors’ offices where one wouldn’t normally wear a mask) seems to ignore the reality of how people interact. 
 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, USU78 said:

On the other hand, this looks promising:

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2006372

We know that wearing a mask outside health care facilities offers little, if any, protection from infection. Public health authorities define a significant exposure to Covid-19 as face-to-face contact within 6 feet with a patient with symptomatic Covid-19 that is sustained for at least a few minutes (and some say more than 10 minutes or even 30 minutes). The chance of catching Covid-19 from a passing interaction in a public space is therefore minimal. In many cases, the desire for widespread masking is a reflexive reaction to anxiety over the pandemic.

The calculus may be different, however, in health care settings. First and foremost, a mask is a core component of the personal protective equipment (PPE) clinicians need when caring for symptomatic patients with respiratory viral infections, in conjunction with gown, gloves, and eye protection.

So ... it's politico-medical theater designed to address anxieties without much substance outside a clinic setting?

The article is clear back on April 1st, that it was published, maybe written back in March. I'm pretty sure the writers have changed their mind. Especially when people were concerned that people would take away the ability of the healthcare workers to wear them. I like what this former surgeon says below, along with so many now. Also, countries like New Zealand and Malta are practically virus free. Wouldn't it be glorious to see that in the US, our only hope IMO, is masks because they may be the key to keeping jobs and for keeping the virus from killing us or from having to live with the affects for the rest of our lives. The virus could live in our bodies like chicken pox or herpes etc. I'd rather take the better safe than sorry approach.  ETA: Just saw this recent study: https://examine.com/topics/coronavirus-masks/?fbclid=IwAR13RS2ljCpXsBkPIwUiS4WXx4S1zeckgtWBUBTYBlN2ymMNvVs7HO35umQ

RETIRED SURGEON Sam Laucks, has this to say about wearing masks:

“OK, here’s my rant about masks:

I have spent the past 39 years working in the field of surgery. For a significant part of that time, I have worn a mask. I have worked with hundreds (probably thousands) of colleagues during those years, who have also worn masks. Not a single one us of became ill, passed out or died from lack of oxygen. Not a single one of us became ill, passed out or died from breathing too much carbon dioxide. Not a single one us of became ill, passed out or died from rebreathing a little of our own exhaled air. Let’s begin here by putting those scare tactics to rest!

(It is true that some people, with advanced lung diseases, may be so fragile that a mask could make their already-tenuous breathing more difficult. If your lungs are that bad, you probably shouldn’t be going out in public at the present time anyway; the consequences if you are exposed to Covid-19 would likely be devastating.)

~ “But”, you ask, “can’t viruses go right through the mask, because they are so small?” (“Masks keep viruses out just as well as a chain link fence keeps mosquitoes out,” some tell us.) It is true that individual virus particles can pass through the pores of a mask; however, viruses don’t move on their own. They do not fly across the room like a mosquito, wiggle through your mask like a worm, or fly up your nose like a gnat. The virus is essentially nothing more than a tiny blob of genetic material. Covid-19 travels in a CARRIER – the carrier is a fluid droplet- fluid droplets that you expel when you cough, sneeze, sing, laugh, talk or simply exhale. Most of your fluid droplets will be stopped from entering the air in the room if you are wearing a mask. Wearing a mask is a very efficient way to protect others if you are carrying the virus (even if you don’t know that you are infected). In addition, if someone else’s fluid droplets happen to land on your mask, many of them will not pass through. This gives the wearer some additional protection, too. But, the main reason to wear a mask is to PROTECT OTHERS. Even if you don’t care about yourself, wear your mask to protect your neighbors, co-workers and friends!

~ A mask is certainly not 100% protective. However, it appears that the severity of Covid-19 infection is at least partially “dose-dependent.” In other words, the more virus particles that enter your body, the sicker you are likely to become. Why not decrease that volume if you can? “What have you got to lose?!”

~ “But doesn’t a requirement or a request to wear a mask violate my constitutional rights?” You’re also not allowed to go into the grocery store if you are not wearing pants. You can’t yell “fire” in the Produce Department. You’re not allowed to urinate on the floor in the Frozen Food Section. Do you object to those restrictions? Rules, established for the common good, are component of a civilized society.

~ “But aren’t masks uncomfortable?” Some would say that underwear or shoes can be uncomfortable, but we still wear them. (Actually, being on a ventilator is pretty darned uncomfortable, too!) Are masks really so bad that you can’t tolerate them, even if they will help keep others healthy?

~ “But won’t people think I’m a snowflake or a wimp if I wear a mask?” I hope you have enough self-confidence to overcome that.

~ “But won’t I look stupid if I wear a mask?” I’ve decided not to dignify that question with an answer!! 📷

~ “But I never get sick; I’m not worried.” Well, then, wear a mask for the sake of the rest of us who are not so perfect!

There is good evidence that masks make a real difference in diminishing the transmission of Covid-19. Please, for the sake of others (and for the sake of yourself), wear your mask when in public. It won’t kill you!

P.S. - And, by the way, please be sure that BOTH your nose and mouth are covered!

Recommendations around mask usage are confusing. The science isn't. Evidence shows that masks are extremely effective to slow the coronavirus and may be the best tool available right now to fight it.”

Thank you, Sam Laucks!!

 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Tacenda

[bluebell]

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

The article is clear back on April 1st, that it was published, maybe written back in March. I'm pretty sure the writers have changed their mind. Especially when people were concerned that people would take away the ability of the healthcare workers to wear them. I like what this former surgeon says below, along with so many now. Also, countries like New Zealand and Malta are practically virus free. Wouldn't it be glorious to see that in the US, our only hope IMO, is masks because they may be the key to keeping jobs and for keeping the virus from killing us or from having to live with the affects for the rest of our lives. The virus could live in our bodies like chicken pox or herpes etc. I'd rather take the better safe than sorry approach.  ETA: Just saw this recent study: https://examine.com/topics/coronavirus-masks/?fbclid=IwAR13RS2ljCpXsBkPIwUiS4WXx4S1zeckgtWBUBTYBlN2ymMNvVs7HO35umQ

RETIRED SURGEON Sam Laucks, has this to say about wearing masks:

“OK, here’s my rant about masks:

I have spent the past 39 years working in the field of surgery. For a significant part of that time, I have worn a mask. I have worked with hundreds (probably thousands) of colleagues during those years, who have also worn masks. Not a single one us of became ill, passed out or died from lack of oxygen. Not a single one of us became ill, passed out or died from breathing too much carbon dioxide. Not a single one us of became ill, passed out or died from rebreathing a little of our own exhaled air. Let’s begin here by putting those scare tactics to rest!

(It is true that some people, with advanced lung diseases, may be so fragile that a mask could make their already-tenuous breathing more difficult. If your lungs are that bad, you probably shouldn’t be going out in public at the present time anyway; the consequences if you are exposed to Covid-19 would likely be devastating.)

~ “But”, you ask, “can’t viruses go right through the mask, because they are so small?” (“Masks keep viruses out just as well as a chain link fence keeps mosquitoes out,” some tell us.) It is true that individual virus particles can pass through the pores of a mask; however, viruses don’t move on their own. They do not fly across the room like a mosquito, wiggle through your mask like a worm, or fly up your nose like a gnat. The virus is essentially nothing more than a tiny blob of genetic material. Covid-19 travels in a CARRIER – the carrier is a fluid droplet- fluid droplets that you expel when you cough, sneeze, sing, laugh, talk or simply exhale. Most of your fluid droplets will be stopped from entering the air in the room if you are wearing a mask. Wearing a mask is a very efficient way to protect others if you are carrying the virus (even if you don’t know that you are infected). In addition, if someone else’s fluid droplets happen to land on your mask, many of them will not pass through. This gives the wearer some additional protection, too. But, the main reason to wear a mask is to PROTECT OTHERS. Even if you don’t care about yourself, wear your mask to protect your neighbors, co-workers and friends!

~ A mask is certainly not 100% protective. However, it appears that the severity of Covid-19 infection is at least partially “dose-dependent.” In other words, the more virus particles that enter your body, the sicker you are likely to become. Why not decrease that volume if you can? “What have you got to lose?!”

~ “But doesn’t a requirement or a request to wear a mask violate my constitutional rights?” You’re also not allowed to go into the grocery store if you are not wearing pants. You can’t yell “fire” in the Produce Department. You’re not allowed to urinate on the floor in the Frozen Food Section. Do you object to those restrictions? Rules, established for the common good, are component of a civilized society.

~ “But aren’t masks uncomfortable?” Some would say that underwear or shoes can be uncomfortable, but we still wear them. (Actually, being on a ventilator is pretty darned uncomfortable, too!) Are masks really so bad that you can’t tolerate them, even if they will help keep others healthy?

~ “But won’t people think I’m a snowflake or a wimp if I wear a mask?” I hope you have enough self-confidence to overcome that.

~ “But won’t I look stupid if I wear a mask?” I’ve decided not to dignify that question with an answer!! 📷

~ “But I never get sick; I’m not worried.” Well, then, wear a mask for the sake of the rest of us who are not so perfect!

There is good evidence that masks make a real difference in diminishing the transmission of Covid-19. Please, for the sake of others (and for the sake of yourself), wear your mask when in public. It won’t kill you!

P.S. - And, by the way, please be sure that BOTH your nose and mouth are covered!

Recommendations around mask usage are confusing. The science isn't. Evidence shows that masks are extremely effective to slow the coronavirus and may be the best tool available right now to fight it.”

Thank you, Sam Laucks!!

 

Here's an article by Dr. Leora Horwitz, associate professor of population health and medicine at NYU Langone Health and director of the Center for Healthcare Innovation and Delivery Science at New York University Langone Medical Center, on why the public (healthy people) don't need to wear masks.  It was written a couple of months ago, and I'm not putting it up to dispute masks or their benefits but only to show that even doctors have had conflicting advice on the mask issue.  It's one of the things that has created the mess we are in now.

[pogi]

40 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Here's an article by Dr. Leora Horwitz, associate professor of population health and medicine at NYU Langone Health and director of the Center for Healthcare Innovation and Delivery Science at New York University Langone Medical Center, on why the public (healthy people) don't need to wear masks.  It was written a couple of months ago, and I'm not putting it up to dispute masks or their benefits but only to show that even doctors have had conflicting advice on the mask issue.  It's one of the things that has created the mess we are in now.

For being published back in March (a life-time ago when it comes to Covid developments) her advice doesn't conflict with anything public health experts were saying back then.  Especially considering that the CDC didn't even start recommending that the general public start wearing masks until early April.  On March 11, when this article was written, there were only a handful of known cases in the entire US.  Not enough to justify recommending that the entire public wear masks.   

Her main talking point is that N95 masks should be reserved for medical workers and not hoarded by the public. she is right. She also acknowledges that surgical masks are effective at reducing the spread of disease if you are infected:

Quote

First, they are crucial for people who have the disease. Remember those drops of saliva? Wearing a mask if you're sick can help catch a large number of them, greatly reducing the amount of virus that gets into the environment or onto other people

Now that Covid is everywhere, and now that we understand that around 30% of all positive cases are asymptomatic (which we didn't know back then), I guarantee that she would solidly endorse the recommendations of the CDC which were put out a month after her article was written.  A lot changed and a lot of new info is out there about the virus.  

See if you can find where we were and where she was coming from on March 11, when this was written:

Do you see what a difference a couple months makes and where she was coming from back then?

Edited June 30, 2020 by pogi

[Meadowchik]

34 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Here's an article by Dr. Leora Horwitz, associate professor of population health and medicine at NYU Langone Health and director of the Center for Healthcare Innovation and Delivery Science at New York University Langone Medical Center, on why the public (healthy people) don't need to wear masks.  It was written a couple of months ago, and I'm not putting it up to dispute masks or their benefits but only to show that even doctors have had conflicting advice on the mask issue.  It's one of the things that has created the mess we are in now.

I wonder how much the opinions against masks have been impacted by shortages. This article isn't so much a thorough study of the importance of masks in infection as an opinion piece on supply concerns.

 

[Calm]

https://mobile.twitter.com/richdavisphd/status/1276629360212979712
 

[bluebell]

20 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

I wonder how much the opinions against masks have been impacted by shortages. This article isn't so much a thorough study of the importance of masks in infection as an opinion piece on supply concerns.

 

In the beginning I think there was a lot of that, but that doesn't make the issue any better in a lot of people's eyes because what it says to them is that the medical establishment isn't above making things up to get the public to behave in certain ways. 

When you get a whole bunch of high ranking doctors saying 'masks don't work, they won't protect you, stop wearing them they are only beneficial for medical professionals' not because it's true but because they don't want the public buying up masks, you're going to get a LOT less compliance when they start saying the opposite.   It calls their trustworthiness into question.  Maybe unfairly so, but the result is the same, fair or not.

[bluebell]

29 minutes ago, pogi said:

For being published back in March (a life-time ago when it comes to Covid developments) her advice doesn't conflict with anything public health experts were saying back then.  Especially considering that the CDC didn't even start recommending that the general public start wearing masks until early April.  On March 11, when this article was written, there were only a handful of known cases in the entire US.  Not enough to justify recommending that the entire public wear masks.   

Her main talking point is that N95 masks should be reserved for medical workers and not hoarded by the public. she is right. She also acknowledges that surgical masks are effective at reducing the spread of disease if you are infected:

Now that Covid is everywhere, and now that we understand that around 30% of all positive cases are asymptomatic (which we didn't know back then), I guarantee that she would solidly endorse the recommendations of the CDC which were put out a month after her article was written.  A lot changed and a lot of new info is out there about the virus.  

See if you can find where we were and where she was coming from on March 11, when this was written:

Do you see what a difference a couple months makes and where she was coming from back then?

Like I said, I only commented to show that the conflicting advice we've gotten on the issues of masks has had some obvious consequences, one of some of which is less trust from some people that the medical establishment really knows what they are talking about and more pushback on the need to wear masks.

[Meadowchik]

8 minutes ago, bluebell said:

In the beginning I think there was a lot of that, but that doesn't make the issue any better in a lot of people's eyes because what it says to them is that the medical establishment isn't above making things up to get the public to behave in certain ways. 

When you get a whole bunch of high ranking doctors saying 'masks don't work, they won't protect you, stop wearing them they are only beneficial for medical professionals' not because it's true but because they don't want the public buying up masks, you're going to get a LOT less compliance when they start saying the opposite.   It calls their trustworthiness into question.  Maybe unfairly so, but the result is the same, fair or not.

Yep, it's really unfortunate. I can see them wanting to prevent hoarding, profiteering, and general shortages. Perhaps a bit more nuance would have been wise. But, if people look closely and consider current studies, I think the reasonableness of masks is still a scrutible. But that's a big if

[MustardSeed]

I feel like I’m in the twilight zone with people not seeing the value of masks. Of course, it’s only helpful if everyone complies.  Fat chance. 

[bluebell]

26 minutes ago, Calm said:

https://mobile.twitter.com/richdavisphd/status/1276629360212979712
 

Does it look like singing and talking are no different in terms of spreading germs?  And does this mean that if a person isn't opening their mouth (or sneezing obviously) that no germs spread?  If so, then breathing through your nose and refraining from opening your mouth would be as effective at stopping spread as wearing a mask, correct?  

If you can't get people to wear masks maybe you can get them to keep their mouths shut at least.

[strappinglad]

Some folks were all upset about single use plastic straws. Imagine when ,at a minimum, we toss 300 million masks in the trash every week or so. Yes, I know some are washable. I just remember the pics of the beach clutter of masks . 

[Calm]

40 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I feel like I’m in the twilight zone with people not seeing the value of masks. Of course, it’s only helpful if everyone complies.  Fat chance. 

It is helpful if many comply. The more who comply the better.  It is not an all or nothing situation. 

Edited June 30, 2020 by Calm