Administering Sacrament in the Home

[The Nehor]

13 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

I think there is a lot of over-reaction going on with the government and media.  Perhaps a better reaction would be to quarantine the vulnerable and not deliberately kill the economy?  The vast majority will not show serious symptoms with this and quarantining the vulnerable (those with concurrent health problems and the elderly) will save the health care apparatus from being overwhelmed and will flatten the curve.

People have drastically underestimated the symptoms and need for hospitalization. It came out early that 80% of cases are mild. The expert who used that term regrets it as “mild” meant people who did not need supplemental oxygen. It runs the gamut from almost no symptoms all the way to severe pneumonia and those cases are not limited to the elderly.

Also, how do you quarantine the vulnerable? Most do not live alone and self-quarantining has already been shown not to work. Where do you house them? Your proposal is not practical unless we pull a disease version of the Japanese internment camps.

[Robert J Anderson]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

People have drastically underestimated the symptoms and need for hospitalization. It came out early that 80% of cases are mild. The expert who used that term regrets it as “mild” meant people who did not need supplemental oxygen. It runs the gamut from almost no symptoms all the way to severe pneumonia and those cases are not limited to the elderly.

Also, how do you quarantine the vulnerable? Most do not live alone and self-quarantining has already been shown not to work. Where do you house them? Your proposal is not practical unless we pull a disease version of the Japanese internment camps.

Here is an article published on webmd.com that the CDC cites to on its website.  https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200310/know-the-symptoms-of-covid19

In the article, it says that approximately 80% experience mild to moderate symptoms and don't need oxygen.  From the article:

Quote

About 17% of people in China who tested positive for COVID-19 -- about 1 in 5 -- have had severe symptoms, which includes trouble catching their breath, rapid breathing (taking more than 30 breaths in a minute), and low oxygen in their blood. These patients need extra oxygen and sometimes specialized equipment to help them breathe. In China, these patients were hospitalized.

About 1 in 20 patients were in critical condition. These patients developed respiratory failure and organ failure.

People who seem to be at highest risk for serious illness from COVID-19 are adults over the age of 60, or people who have underlying medical conditions like high blood pressure, diabetes, heart disease, lung disease, or cancer. The highest number of deaths in China -- 22% -- has been in adults over age 80.

So why not have an order to remain where you are, only for the vulnerable populations, instead of forcing everyone to stop their routines, killing the economy?  Couldn't friends and family social workers then routinely check on these who are quarantined in their homes to see if these individuals catch the virus and see if their symptoms are severe enough to warrant further attention?  I am doing it for elderly neighbors and elderly parents.  Incidentally, the response now seems deficient in that seniors are the one congregating at the grocery stores early in the morning to get yet another package of toilet paper or bottled water, etc.  Seems like social distancing or shutting down cities isn't working as well given that there aren't any restrictions on travel.  So, restrict travel too?  Well, then who is going to get needed supplies to everyone if we are all locked in our houses?  Perhaps leave the vulnerable indoors and have the less risky population continue with food production, delivery, and other aspects of the economy?

[The Nehor]

51 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Here is an article published on webmd.com that the CDC cites to on its website.  https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20200310/know-the-symptoms-of-covid19

In the article, it says that approximately 80% experience mild to moderate symptoms and don't need oxygen.  From the article:

So why not have an order to remain where you are, only for the vulnerable populations, instead of forcing everyone to stop their routines, killing the economy?  Couldn't friends and family social workers then routinely check on these who are quarantined in their homes to see if these individuals catch the virus and see if their symptoms are severe enough to warrant further attention?  I am doing it for elderly neighbors and elderly parents.  Incidentally, the response now seems deficient in that seniors are the one congregating at the grocery stores early in the morning to get yet another package of toilet paper or bottled water, etc.  Seems like social distancing or shutting down cities isn't working as well given that there aren't any restrictions on travel.  So, restrict travel too?  Well, then who is going to get needed supplies to everyone if we are all locked in our houses?  Perhaps leave the vulnerable indoors and have the less risky population continue with food production, delivery, and other aspects of the economy?

Being just short of needing oxygen is not really moderate symptoms by most standards. Some will need hospitalization. I also question whether the hospitals could handle even all the cases that the “non-vulnerable” will get if they all hit in a short time period. You look at the percentages and the odds look fine but if everyone 50 and younger without some comorbid factor who does get severe symptoms get it all at once you are still looking at a severe health crisis.

That is assuming the isolation works if it is not enforced and currently it looks like it does not work. I am trying to slow the spread but then I see the elderly gathering and wonder what they are thinking.

One other factor that may make this worse in the US is that obesity has been found to be a Condition that exacerbates the illness. Roughly 40% of the US adult population is obese. Can we isolate that many people?

[Robert J Anderson]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Being just short of needing oxygen is not really moderate symptoms by most standards. Some will need hospitalization. I also question whether the hospitals could handle even all the cases that the “non-vulnerable” will get if they all hit in a short time period. You look at the percentages and the odds look fine but if everyone 50 and younger without some comorbid factor who does get severe symptoms get it all at once you are still looking at a severe health crisis.

That is assuming the isolation works if it is not enforced and currently it looks like it does not work. I am trying to slow the spread but then I see the elderly gathering and wonder what they are thinking.

One other factor that may make this worse in the US is that obesity has been found to be a Condition that exacerbates the illness. Roughly 40% of the US adult population is obese. Can we isolate that many people?

It's not pretty from any angle.  However, at a certain point we need to go back to work and get the economy working again.  Hopefully, this will be a short run of a couple of months and then we can get back at it.

[The Nehor]

5 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

It's not pretty from any angle.  However, at a certain point we need to go back to work and get the economy working again.  Hopefully, this will be a short run of a couple of months and then we can get back at it.

I am thinking this will be half a year. Be pretty much done by the middle of the Fall.

I also try to remind myself when I see my portfolio dwindle that the economy exists to better our lives and our lives are not worth sacrificing to save the economy.

[Traela]

My thought is that we need to slow the spread long enough for antivirals and vaccines to be readily available before too many people catch it.

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Traela

[Robert J Anderson]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am thinking this will be half a year. Be pretty much done by the middle of the Fall.

I also try to remind myself when I see my portfolio dwindle that the economy exists to better our lives and our lives are not worth sacrificing to save the economy.

Sure, the economy is a means to an end and one of those ends is survival, too.  I don't think its workable to be stopped for 6 months for most.  They don't have the savings. 

Are you retired?  Most that congregate to sites like this one are older, retired.

[Raingirl]

4 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Sure, the economy is a means to an end and one of those ends is survival, too.  I don't think its workable to be stopped for 6 months for most.  They don't have the savings. 

Are you retired?  Most that congregate to sites like this one are older, retired.

CFR to your claim in the second paragraph. 

[Calm]

35 minutes ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Most that congregate to sites like this one are older, retired.

At least among the women, I am guessing most aren't 65 yet.  I think I am one of the older ones and I got a few years still,

Lots of the men talk about the jobs and young kids, so I am guessing no more than 50/50 for them.  Could be much less.

Edited March 23, 2020 by Calm

[The Nehor]

9 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Sure, the economy is a means to an end and one of those ends is survival, too.  I don't think its workable to be stopped for 6 months for most.  They don't have the savings. 

Are you retired?  Most that congregate to sites like this one are older, retired.

Nope. I work for a living. Or at least I have a job.

[bluebell]

9 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Are you retired?  Most that congregate to sites like this one are older, retired.

I don't think we have many posters that are retired.  A few for sure but a definite minority I would guess.

[Robert J Anderson]

33 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I don't think we have many posters that are retired.  A few for sure but a definite minority I would guess.

I would have thought otherwise.

[Stargazer]

On 3/22/2020 at 4:06 AM, mfbukowski said:

Agree about the flu.

This is one of the things that bothers me about the seriousness of the reaction.

I am at the point now where I trust neither the government nor the media nor either party.

When are the tanks rolling to enforce all this?   police in San Francisco are actually enforcing the policies and there's talk about bringing in the military.

Un -flipping believeable !

 

 

There are some people I know who feel that the whole thing is a put-up job by the government in order to sneak in totalitarian measures that they couldn't sneak in before.  Or, if not actually engineered by the government, at least being used as a convenient excuse.

There are some jurisdictions in the US which have passed laws allowing them to shut everything down, under color of disease control.  The UK is about to pass some rather dictatorial measures, too.

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, Navidad said:

My wife and I "attended" church this morning via two livestreams (no congregants in attendance). One was from the Mennonite church in the little town in Pennsylvania where I grew up and one in western New York, now being pastored by my best friend from high school. They were very different but we enjoyed them both. We thought about having a communion (sacrament) service here in our home since I am "authorized" to perform the sacrament in our own faith group, but decided against it. We thought that might somehow be offensive to the folks in our ward since they don't recognize my authority, even within our own faith group. So, we simply watched and enjoyed the music and sermons, one of which the pastor preached from his dining room table and one which was preached from the pulpit at an almost (only a few staff were there) empty church.  It was a delightful morning. 

I don't understand why it might be offensive. Not at all.  If they were to be offended by this, then I would have harsh words for them.  Especially since it would be within the walls of your own home, and what flipping right would they have to object? None whatsoever.

Of course, one can find easily-offended people everywhere one looks. Letting oneself be pushed around by the possibility of it is, in my opinion at least, suboptimal.

 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Stargazer

[Navidad]

11 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

Sure, the economy is a means to an end and one of those ends is survival, too.  I don't think its workable to be stopped for 6 months for most.  They don't have the savings. 

Are you retired?  Most that congregate to sites like this one are older, retired.

Well I am older and retired, if you don't count writing books and articles, traveling around Mexico and the US (not this year) speaking, growing 1200 pecan trees, and working a small herd of cattle. Our little stock portfolio has lost over 50% the past month or so! Unbelievable! Glad to say we are pretty self-sufficient on our little bit of paradise here in Mexico. The only thing I haven't figured out how to grow yet are bottles of diet Dr. Pepper! 🤠 

[Amulek]

On 3/20/2020 at 6:31 PM, CA Steve said:

Your're [sic] [...] going to get people killed.

Sorry, I don't usually spend much time online over the weekends, so I just saw this, and it looks like you may have been banned from the thread as well, so I'll not go much further than to echo Calm's remarks. 

I think people need to make sensible judgments about the level or degree of risk they are willing to expose themselves to, and I think we should be respectful (or at least tolerant) of those reasonable decisions.

 

[Navidad]

34 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't understand why it might be offensive. Not at all.  If they were to be offended by this, then I would have harsh words for them.  Especially since it would be within the walls of your own home, and what flipping right would they have to object? None whatsoever.

Of course, one can find easily-offended people everywhere one looks. Letting oneself be pushed around by the possibility of it is, in my opinion at least, suboptimal.

 

I am sure you are right. I just try to be overly cautious. I have given up trying to figure out what offends some folks. Oh, and I am a PhD by research student at the University of Kent in Canterbury. Are you familiar with it? Best wishes. 

Edited March 23, 2020 by Navidad

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Robert J Anderson said:

I would have thought otherwise.

I am in my very early 40s.

39 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

There are some people I know who feel that the whole thing is a put-up job by the government in order to sneak in totalitarian measures that they couldn't sneak in before.  Or, if not actually engineered by the government, at least being used as a convenient excuse.

There are some jurisdictions in the US which have passed laws allowing them to shut everything down, under color of disease control.  The UK is about to pass some rather dictatorial measures, too.

Good. Draconian measures are needed right now. The British were being even worse then the US about downplaying the crisis.

Total reported cases were around 350k worldwide this morning. Just refreshed and up to 360k.

Anyone who wants to be morbid with me here is the tracker I have liked best so far:

https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html

They just updated the US so you can see reported cases by county and not just by state. It is still doing Canada by province and most of the rest of the world by nation.

[Amulek]

On 3/21/2020 at 11:04 AM, mfbukowski said:

You must have an interesting calling but since you didn't disclose it I won't go there. 

Not that interesting. I'm serving as the second counselor in our bishopric currently.

 

[Amulek]

On 3/22/2020 at 12:20 PM, Navidad said:

We thought about having a communion (sacrament) service here in our home since I am "authorized" to perform the sacrament in our own faith group, but decided against it. We thought that might somehow be offensive to the folks in our ward since they don't recognize my authority, even within our own faith group.

Stargazer is correct. There is nothing inherently "offensive" about other faith groups officiating their own religious rites. 

If you were to hold a Mennonite communion for yourself and your wife at home, I don't see how that would be any more offensive than the Catholic priest down the street officiating for his parishioners. 

 

[Navidad]

3 minutes ago, Amulek said:

Stargazer is correct. There is nothing inherently "offensive" about other faith groups officiating their own religious rites. 

If you were to hold a Mennonite communion for yourself and your wife at home, I don't see how that would be any more offensive than the Catholic priest down the street officiating for his parishioners. 

 

Thanks, I am sure you are right! Oh! How did you know the Catholic church is right down the street? They just celebrated the Feast Day of St Joseph, the patron saint of the parish. It was quite a noisy celebration. Methinks it broke most of the social distancing rules, as did Saturday's quinceanera, and  and  and! 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/20/2020 at 9:51 PM, Raingirl said:

I found out from the RS President some of the details for our ward. 

There is no automatic or blanket permission to administer the sacrament. Worthy priesthood holders must get permission from the bishop. 

The goal is to provide the sacrament to everyone in the ward with the sacrament once a month, with the the first occurrence being March 29.

If there is no Priesthood holder in your home, you may inform the bishop that you would like someone sent to your home, and Priesthood representatives will be sent. You must provide the bread and water.

If you’re uncomfortable with someone coming to your home, that is fine. There will be no judgement made. 

I took the directive of once a month to be regarded as a minimum. Perhaps your ward leadership sees it as more stringent than it is. But it’s not my call to make. 
 

In consulting the handbook, I confirmed that those to whom the bishop gives approval to administer the sacrament outside the normal setting are to report back. Our bishop does not require this, although he has in each instance responded graciously when I have reported. 

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/22/2020 at 11:47 AM, The Nehor said:

People have drastically underestimated the symptoms and need for hospitalization. It came out early that 80% of cases are mild. The expert who used that term regrets it as “mild” meant people who did not need supplemental oxygen. It runs the gamut from almost no symptoms all the way to severe pneumonia and those cases are not limited to the elderly.

Also, how do you quarantine the vulnerable? Most do not live alone and self-quarantining has already been shown not to work. Where do you house them? Your proposal is not practical unless we pull a disease version of the Japanese internment camps.

How has self-quarantining been shown not to work? Because we are still getting new cases? How do you know it wouldn’t be worse without the self-quarantining?

[Amulek]

22 minutes ago, Navidad said:

How did you know the Catholic church is right down the street? They just celebrated the Feast Day of St Joseph, the patron saint of the parish. It was quite a noisy celebration. Methinks it broke most of the social distancing rules, as did Saturday's quinceanera, and  and  and! 

Well, it's hard to pass on a good quinceañera - those things are great!

 

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Robert J Anderson said:

I would have thought otherwise.

Many of us have been around since the board started so subtract 10-15 years from our ages for when we were first attracted to the board, so there is no real reason to assume it attracts retirees mostly.   We use to have more academics, both students and professors also.