Wisconsin School District Dabbling in Gender Identity Politics (By Deceiving Parents)

[smac97]

Here:

Quote

The Arizona-based Alliance Defending Freedom has joined the Wisconsin Institute for Law & Liberty in filing a lawsuit on behalf of a group of Madison parents in Dane County Circuit Court against the Madison Metropolitan School District for adopting and implementing gender identity policies that they believe violate the rights of district parents.

Wisconsin Institute for Law & Liberty (WILL) issued a demand letter to the school district on December 18 urging the district to update and amend the policies to avoid a lawsuit. Madison Metropolitan School District (MMSD) responded on January 31 that there would be no update to district policies.

Alliance Defending Freedom (ADF) and WILL claim that the challenged MMSD policies enable children, of any age, to change their gender identity at school without parental notice or consent, and instruct district employees to conceal and even deceive parents about the gender identity their son or daughter has adopted at school.

WILL and ADF attorneys represent 14 individual parents from eight families at the school district in challenging the policy.

According to an expert affidavit filed by the parents and submitted by Dr. Stephen B. Levine, a Distinguished Life Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association, social transition of children is an experimental therapy that exposes vulnerable children to dangerous, lifelong physical, social, and mental health risks.

“As Dr. Levine explains based on decades of experience and extensive scientific literature, putting children on a pathway to puberty-blockers and cross-sex hormones can have devastating effects across a lifetime,” stated ADF Senior Counsel Roger Brooks. “That should serve as a wake-up call to parents and all Americans: When schools cast aside biological reality in favor of gender identity ideology, it’s children who are hurt the most.”

From the lawsuit itself:

Quote

32. In April 2018, the Madison School District adopted a document entitled “Guidance & Policies to Support Transgender, Non-binary & Gender-Expansive Students” (“Policy”). A true and accurate copy of this document is attached as Exhibit 1. The Policy is available online at https://studentservices.madison.k12.wi.us/files/stusvc/uploads/guidancebooklet.pdf.

33. The Policy sets forth the Madison School District’s official position on the nature of sex and gender. In a section entitled “Gender 101,” the Policy explains the District’s view that each person has a “gender identity” distinct from his or her biological sex, which “can be the same as or different from their sex assigned at birth.” Policy at 13. According to the Policy, a person’s gender identity can be “male, female, a blend of both or neither” and is determined entirely by “a person’s internal sense of self.” Policy at 13.

34. The Policy repeatedly emphasizes that the Madison School District is committed to “affirm[ing]” each student’s self-designated gender identity, Policy at 1, 13, effectively choosing a side in the debate among medical and psychiatric professionals described above.

35. Furthermore, the Policy declares that the Madison School District “will strive to … disrupt[ ] the gender binary,” and will pursue this “disruption” through “books and lessons,” “limit[ing] gendered and binary language,” and interrupting and correcting “misconceptions about gender or language that reinforce[ ] the gender binary.” Policy at 24.

The entire complaint is worth a read.

Back to the article:

Quote

In April 2018, MMSD adopted “Guidance and Policies to Support Transgender, Non-binary & Gender-Expansive Students.” The policy includes the following provisions:

• Children of any age can transition to a different gender identity at school, by changing their name and pronouns, without parental notice or consent.
• District employees are prohibited from notifying parents, without the child’s consent, that their child has or wants to change gender identity at school, or that their child may be dealing with gender dysphoria.
• District employees are even instructed to deceive parents by using the child’s legal name and pronouns with family, while using the different name and pronouns adopted by the child in the school setting.

I find it disconcerting to have governmental entities adopting formal policies not only allowing, but requiring government employees to deceive citizens - parents - about what those employees are doing with the citizens' children.

If you were a member of the Church living in Wisconsin, with children being subjected to this policy, what would you do?

Any other thoughts?

-Smac

Edited March 11, 2020 by smac97

[Analytics]

Let me see if I understand this. If 10-year old Elizabeth tells her teacher that she'd prefer to be referred to with him/his pronouns, the teacher should honor that. And if Elizabeth tells her-I-mean-his teacher not to mention this preference to his parents, the teacher should honor that, too.

And if he says he'd prefer to be called Liz or Beth or Beck or anything else, the teacher should honor that, too.

That is the basic issue, right?

My perspective is that for the tiny minority of kids who would want to do this, allowing them to do so is a good idea. Forcing them to conform to stereotypes wouldn't do any good and might do some harm.

[Calm]

5 hours ago, Analytics said:

My perspective is that for the tiny minority of kids who would want to do this, allowing them to do so is a good idea. Forcing them to conform to stereotypes wouldn't do any good and might do some harm.

And not telling parents?  (Assuming accurate report) Is it good to encourage noncommunication between child and parents?  Would they see it as appropriate if kids asked them not to share their grades with parents?  Or that they were going on field trips?  That they got called in because they bullied?  That they were being bullied?

If it has been established there is abuse (and if so, why not report to CPS), I can see that. However, just on the child’s say so?

Edited March 11, 2020 by Calm

[rongo]

1 hour ago, Analytics said:

My perspective is that for the tiny minority of kids who would want to do this, allowing them to do so is a good idea. Forcing them to conform to stereotypes wouldn't do any good and might do some harm.

It's no longer a tiny minority. Both anecdotally, in my experience, and also in studies, the number of children self-identifying as "non-binary/ non-cisgender" has proliferated in the last few years. In my experience, many children are experimenting with this, and then revert back to their "default setting" after playing around with it. 

This article did make me wonder what I would do if an angry parent were upset that I had used a preferred name in a news article or press release, instead of his child's given name. I have always called kids whatever name they want to be called, but I refuse to use the wrong pronouns (in some cases, if it would upset them, I simply don't refer to them by pronouns at all. i.e., I avoid saying things like, referring to a sensitive student "If you listened carefully to her answer, she said . . ." Some students would be upset if I referred to "her" as "her," and so I avoid that by phrasing things so that pronouns aren't used. I find most kids who are experimenting with identifying as trans are patient and forgiving about it). I've had students with preferred names (Simon instead of Stephanie, for example) who medal on the National German Exam, and I'll use the preferred name in the article and picture caption for local media. But, I've never checked with parents to see if they're okay with it.

In no cases have parents contacted the school to change the name on school records. This causes problems occasionally when substitute teachers call attendance from a roll, or if one inadvertently forgets (that's happened to me twice, and I had two girls, Drake and Simon, in tears when I accidentally called them by their given names. When I apologized, I explained that it was an honest mistake, and they have to realize that mistakes will happen when their given names remain on the rolls. In one of those incidents, we were reviewing with Bingo, and I had assigned each student a number. When I drew Drake's number, I looked on my roll and automatically called out "Allyssa.").

If kids like this are going to be militant about it, they are setting themselves up for frustration and anguish. Even full-out supporters are going to inadvertently slip up, especially when their given names remain on official lists. 

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's no longer a tiny minority. Both anecdotally, in my experience, and also in studies, the number of children self-identifying as "non-binary/ non-cisgender" has proliferated in the last few years. In my experience, many children are experimenting with this, and then revert back to their "default setting" after playing around with it. 

This article did make me wonder what I would do if an angry parent were upset that I had used a preferred name in a news article or press release, instead of his child's given name. I have always called kids whatever name they want to be called, but I refuse to use the wrong pronouns (in some cases, if it would upset them, I simply don't refer to them by pronouns at all. i.e., I avoid saying things like, referring to a sensitive student "If you listened carefully to her answer, she said . . ." Some students would be upset if I referred to "her" as "her," and so I avoid that by phrasing things so that pronouns aren't used. I find most kids who are experimenting with identifying as trans are patient and forgiving about it). I've had students with preferred names (Simon instead of Stephanie, for example) who medal on the National German Exam, and I'll use the preferred name in the article and picture caption for local media. But, I've never checked with parents to see if they're okay with it.

In no cases have parents contacted the school to change the name on school records. This causes problems occasionally when substitute teachers call attendance from a roll, or if one inadvertently forgets (that's happened to me twice, and I had two girls, Drake and Simon, in tears when I accidentally called them by their given names. When I apologized, I explained that it was an honest mistake, and they have to realize that mistakes will happen when their given names remain on the rolls. In one of those incidents, we were reviewing with Bingo, and I had assigned each student a number. When I drew Drake's number, I looked on my roll and automatically called out "Allyssa.").

If kids like this are going to be militant about it, they are setting themselves up for frustration and anguish. Even full-out supporters are going to inadvertently slip up, especially when their given names remain on official lists. 

Good to have you back Rongo.   

[Rain]

14 minutes ago, rongo said:

It's no longer a tiny minority. Both anecdotally, in my experience, and also in studies, the number of children self-identifying as "non-binary/ non-cisgender" has proliferated in the last few years. In my experience, many children are experimenting with this, and then revert back to their "default setting" after playing around with it. 

This article did make me wonder what I would do if an angry parent were upset that I had used a preferred name in a news article or press release, instead of his child's given name. I have always called kids whatever name they want to be called, but I refuse to use the wrong pronouns (in some cases, if it would upset them, I simply don't refer to them by pronouns at all. i.e., I avoid saying things like, referring to a sensitive student "If you listened carefully to her answer, she said . . ." Some students would be upset if I referred to "her" as "her," and so I avoid that by phrasing things so that pronouns aren't used. I find most kids who are experimenting with identifying as trans are patient and forgiving about it). I've had students with preferred names (Simon instead of Stephanie, for example) who medal on the National German Exam, and I'll use the preferred name in the article and picture caption for local media. But, I've never checked with parents to see if they're okay with it.

In no cases have parents contacted the school to change the name on school records. This causes problems occasionally when substitute teachers call attendance from a roll, or if one inadvertently forgets (that's happened to me twice, and I had two girls, Drake and Simon, in tears when I accidentally called them by their given names. When I apologized, I explained that it was an honest mistake, and they have to realize that mistakes will happen when their given names remain on the rolls. In one of those incidents, we were reviewing with Bingo, and I had assigned each student a number. When I drew Drake's number, I looked on my roll and automatically called out "Allyssa.").

If kids like this are going to be militant about it, they are setting themselves up for frustration and anguish. Even full-out supporters are going to inadvertently slip up, especially when their given names remain on official lists. 

I have a family member who is identifying as non-binary. This is how I treat the person.  

Calling by the preferred name was an easy decision as my legal name is one thing, but I hate to be called that and prefer my nickname. So when this family member stated a name choice I wasn't about to purposely use a name not wanted.  I do on occasionally slip and use the old name. 

And yes, I think it is becoming much more common.  I'm glad that you are seeing most revert back.  I wonder how it will be with my family member.

If you had a student who asked you not to tell parents then how would you handle it?

[Rain]

That privacy thing is a weird, illogical thing. It's not like the teacher will be the only one who knows.  All the friends will know if they identified after a student changes.  All the kids on class. And parents who sub or volunteer with the child. Parents who come to school to pick up a child may find out.  Social media is all over the place.  I have a hard time believing this kind of thing could be kept from a parent easily even if no school employees say anything.

[rongo]

7 minutes ago, Rain said:

And yes, I think it is becoming much more common.  I'm glad that you are seeing most revert back.  I wonder how it will be with my family member.

In my experience, and in my opinion, the whole gender identity/orientation identity phenomenon is overwhelmingly a social phenomenon, and not biological. Most of it is due to social contagion, media, and social media (contagion in akin to suicide contagion --- not that it is "catching," but that those prone and vulnerable to it succumb to the suggestion and promotion of it). It is largely very confused and lost kids experimenting with things that are currently very endorsed and supported in the media, social media, and society (instant friend and support network), and most of the kids are play-acting. 

I also have experienced a lot of ostensibly counter-intuitive behavior (counter-intuitive if you take kids' claims at face value) on the part of non-cisgender-identifying kids; e.g., gay kids getting or getting someone pregnant, etc. It's really easy to just change your boxes you check to "bisexual," then, but it seems to me to be totally out of situational convenience. They don't know what they are, and are in constant experimental flux.

I have seen this phenomenon as a teacher and as a bishop (we even had an ostensibly lesbian convert who confessed in her baptismal interview with the district leader that she was pregnant)

http://www.startribune.com/gay-teens-have-higher-pregnancy-rates-than-their-straight-peers/320842991/

If you had a student who asked you not to tell parents then how would you handle it?

I wouldn't normally directly contact them, but as you said, it's all over the place when they publicly identify --- they can't keep that from their parents. I have sent emails, saying things like: "Congratulations on Simon's results  on the NGE!" 

I've never been asked to keep their name preferences secret from parents, and as far as I know, all parents have known about it. 

[MiserereNobis]

I've had transgender high school students who have told me their preferred name and pronoun. I honor the request. I've never even thought about contacting the parents about it.

We have a health center in our school that provides services, including distributing birth control and therapy, that can be kept from parents. I don't know the policy or law around that, but I"m guessing it's patient confidentiality.

[provoman]

Hundreds of transgender youths who had gender reassignment surgery wish they hadn't and want to transition back, says trans rights champion

Former transgender patient will tell court that sex change clinic is putting children on 'torturous' path

Gender reassignment treatments for young people to get expert review

 

Link are shared for reference and do not represent any particular sentiment of the poster.

[bluebell]

16 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've had transgender high school students who have told me their preferred name and pronoun. I honor the request. I've never even thought about contacting the parents about it.

We have a health center in our school that provides services, including distributing birth control and therapy, that can be kept from parents. I don't know the policy or law around that, but I"m guessing it's patient confidentiality.

I don't have a problem with this at the high school or even Jr. high level.  I do at the elementary school level though.

[The Nehor]

They aren’t giving hormone blockers to the kids. It is just words. As to pronouns more then ever we should just accept “their” as being an acceptable singular gender neutral pronoun and call it done.

[Analytics]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

And not telling parents?  (Assuming accurate report) Is it good to encourage noncommunication between child and parents?  Would they see it as appropriate if kids asked them not to share their grades with parents?  Or that they were going on field trips?  That they got called in to be bullied?  That they were being bullied?

If it has been established there is abuse (and if so, why not report to CPS), I can see that. However, just on the child’s say so?

It isn't about encouraging non-communication between parents and children. It is about honoring a request not to share an ancillary detail with parents. 
 

I'd love to see some actual examples about how schools handle real life situations surrounding these issues as opposed to reading legal complaints by right-wing culture warriors.

[The Nehor]

It is worth noting that in some cases outing a child for something like this to their parents could result in severe physical harm.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

It is worth noting that in some cases outing a child for something like this to their parents could result in severe physical harm.

It seems likely there would be warning signs of this type of family relationship. 
 

From what Rongo and Miserere have said, it is highly workable not to directly involve parents. It seems perhaps counterproductive to codified an approach as allowing for deceiving as it suggests to kids that they shouldn’t trust their parents. Better to just encourage teachers to be thoughtful and aware of child’s circumstances and act accordingly. That allows teachers to be protective of kids if they see a need whether that means not involving parents or involving them.  It also emphasizes support without building fear of parents or other adults. 

[Ahab]

7 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

From the lawsuit itself:

The entire complaint is worth a read.

Back to the article:

I find it disconcerting to have governmental entities adopting formal policies not only allowing, but requiring government employees to deceive citizens - parents - about what those employees are doing with the citizens' children.

If you were a member of the Church living in Wisconsin, with children being subjected to this policy, what would you do?

Any other thoughts?

-Smac

I would have already built up a rapport with my children such that they would feel they should talk to me and my wife when this issue came up so that we would all talk together about how they should respond to the school officials on this.

And we would also talk to any other parents we knew who had children who attended that school so they would be aware of what the school officials were trying to do, too.\

 

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, smac97 said:

Here:

From the lawsuit itself:

The entire complaint is worth a read.

Back to the article:

I find it disconcerting to have governmental entities adopting formal policies not only allowing, but requiring government employees to deceive citizens - parents - about what those employees are doing with the citizens' children.

If you were a member of the Church living in Wisconsin, with children being subjected to this policy, what would you do?

Any other thoughts?

-Smac

It takes a village. 

[smac97]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

It takes a village. 

A village where the other villagers conspire to lie to parents about their children?

Thanks,

-Smac

[rongo]

4 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I've had transgender high school students who have told me their preferred name and pronoun. I honor the request. I've never even thought about contacting the parents about it.

We have a health center in our school that provides services, including distributing birth control and therapy, that can be kept from parents. I don't know the policy or law around that, but I"m guessing it's patient confidentiality.

By the way, MisereNobis, my parents got home from their mission in the Czech Republic last night. My dad was the branch president (like a bishop, but for a smaller congregation) in Liberec, but halfway through, my parents were moved to being the office couple. That's what they did in Warsaw, and while rewarding, it was grueling (handling all finances, dealing with governmental, legal, and landlord issues, organizing and executing transfers and arrivals/departures under the MP's direction, etc). They told the mission president they would only do it if they could stay over the branch in Liberec, so they have been splitting time between Praha and Liberec every week (M-Th in Prague; F-Su in Liberec. Which was also grueling in its own way). 

[Navidad]

I was blessed to have some of the most challenging jobs in the United States, that of consultant to superintendents, Deputy Superintendent, and Superintendent of Schools in large urban districts. In my roles I often interacted with both right wing and left wing culture warriors. Inevitably both were in some ways suspicious of me, but that is another story. I even had to interact with full-time missionaries at some LDS sites in one of my districts when I had parents upset at the "proselytizing" literature the kids got on field trips to the LDS historical sites. Every fifth grader (probably 8,000 kids) went to one LDS-owned historical site as a field trip, because . . . .well because it was a historical site! I never had a child complain about the trip, but some parents . . . whew! I still have the scars. BTW, that is one of the things that got me interested in LDS history and doctrine. 

Just a few random thoughts on this issue based on my own experience and knowledge:

I had to learn that sometimes those closest to the children had the greatest opportunity to hurt them - their parents. I wasn't comfortable acknowledging that, but I had to do so.

Most of the time the real challenge was with the adults, not the kids. For every three advocate-students there were a dozen advocate parents; again, whether on the right or the left. 

The advocacy of the adults often was directed at the kids, not just me or the school board. Adults have tremendous ability to influence children for better or worse, especially in the short term.

Nothing remains unknown for long in a public school or school district. The communication resources are endless and there are very few boundaries to the same. When staff knows, students know, when students know, parents know, when parents know, everyone knows.

Kids are boundary testers; experimenters and are quite often quite declarative. They say things with great certainty - like some posters here! Ahem....sorry for getting off track. Also, give them time and they will reverse course as quickly as they set sail to begin with. 

Advocates go to school board members who put their fingers in the air to test the political currents. I was blessed with good relationships with board members. We most often worked our way through the political currents.

My experience was that the legal challenges usually had more merits than district folks would acknowledge and less merits than the advocates who brought them thought. I don't remember any such complaint as this one ever going to the courts. Some cases were harder than other, especially the closer the topic was "doctrinally dogmatic" for one side or the other. Most folks are reasonable. The vast majority of kids are reasonable. The parent-advocate was the hardest to work with to a mutually satisfactory solution. I had to learn the difference between satisfying and satisficing. I am not sure the latter is a real word, but I sure found it an interesting term. 

I came into a senior role as an advocate for parental rights. Over time, seeing how often parents really did no-kidding abuse their kids about changes that they (the parent) personally were against, the more I became a moderate on the parent rights side and more verbal as an advocate on the kids' side. At times, the parents' convictions led them to hurt their kids emotionally or physically. Add embarrassment to conviction to anger and you have a dangerous mixture. Again it was a matter that some over-stated this while others under-stated that. Getting everyone to sit down and work through the issues was best done without an audience. I was always fascinated how my Mennonite heritage helped me in this role. That would be another story however.   

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

By the way, MisereNobis, my parents got home from their mission in the Czech Republic last night. My dad was the branch president (like a bishop, but for a smaller congregation) in Liberec, but halfway through, my parents were moved to being the office couple. That's what they did in Warsaw, and while rewarding, it was grueling (handling all finances, dealing with governmental, legal, and landlord issues, organizing and executing transfers and arrivals/departures under the MP's direction, etc). They told the mission president they would only do it if they could stay over the branch in Liberec, so they have been splitting time between Praha and Liberec every week (M-Th in Prague; F-Su in Liberec. Which was also grueling in its own way). 

Thanks for the update! I've been thinking about the CR during this coronavirus outbreak. I saw on the news that as of today all schools are closed and all national heritage sites (that means all castles, old churches, etc) as well. 

I hope your parents had an enjoyable time. Seems like they are destined to serve the Slavs  

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Most folks are reasonable. The vast majority of kids are reasonable. The parent-advocate was the hardest to work with to a mutually satisfactory solution

This sounds pretty much what every teacher I know tells me, even those who advocate for the same causes as the parents.

I don't think it a bad idea not to automatically inform the parent.  I think it a bad idea to write something up or have a policy that mandates an approach that promotes distrust by kids in parents.  Otoh, there definitely are abusive parents out there and teachers need to be aware.  If a need for some reason arose where it was a generally good idea to talk to parents about the subject...or any other for that matter (as in the case of bullying because of the name change/choice or noticing depression or anxiety in the child), talking to the child first about how they wanted to approach telling the parents (give options) and asking if they have concerns would be one way to recognize abuse might be an issue, at which time an appraisal could be made that might include not telling parents.

[Ahab]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I was blessed to have some of the most challenging jobs in the United States, that of consultant to superintendents, Deputy Superintendent, and Superintendent of Schools in large urban districts. In my roles I often interacted with both right wing and left wing culture warriors. Inevitably both were in some ways suspicious of me, but that is another story. I even had to interact with full-time missionaries at some LDS sites in one of my districts when I had parents upset at the "proselytizing" literature the kids got on field trips to the LDS historical sites. Every fifth grader (probably 8,000 kids) went to one LDS-owned historical site as a field trip, because . . . .well because it was a historical site! I never had a child complain about the trip, but some parents . . . whew! I still have the scars. BTW, that is one of the things that got me interested in LDS history and doctrine. 

Just a few random thoughts on this issue based on my own experience and knowledge:

I had to learn that sometimes those closest to the children had the greatest opportunity to hurt them - their parents. I wasn't comfortable acknowledging that, but I had to do so.

Most of the time the real challenge was with the adults, not the kids. For every three advocate-students there were a dozen advocate parents; again, whether on the right or the left. 

The advocacy of the adults often was directed at the kids, not just me or the school board. Adults have tremendous ability to influence children for better or worse, especially in the short term.

Nothing remains unknown for long in a public school or school district. The communication resources are endless and there are very few boundaries to the same. When staff knows, students know, when students know, parents know, when parents know, everyone knows.

Kids are boundary testers; experimenters and are quite often quite declarative. They say things with great certainty - like some posters here! Ahem....sorry for getting off track. Also, give them time and they will reverse course as quickly as they set sail to begin with. 

Advocates go to school board members who put their fingers in the air to test the political currents. I was blessed with good relationships with board members. We most often worked our way through the political currents.

My experience was that the legal challenges usually had more merits than district folks would acknowledge and less merits than the advocates who brought them thought. I don't remember any such complaint as this one ever going to the courts. Some cases were harder than other, especially the closer the topic was "doctrinally dogmatic" for one side or the other. Most folks are reasonable. The vast majority of kids are reasonable. The parent-advocate was the hardest to work with to a mutually satisfactory solution. I had to learn the difference between satisfying and satisficing. I am not sure the latter is a real word, but I sure found it an interesting term. 

I came into a senior role as an advocate for parental rights. Over time, seeing how often parents really did no-kidding abuse their kids about changes that they (the parent) personally were against, the more I became a moderate on the parent rights side and more verbal as an advocate on the kids' side. At times, the parents' convictions led them to hurt their kids emotionally or physically. Add embarrassment to conviction to anger and you have a dangerous mixture. Again it was a matter that some over-stated this while others under-stated that. Getting everyone to sit down and work through the issues was best done without an audience. I was always fascinated how my Mennonite heritage helped me in this role. That would be another story however.   

i think that's a good balance.  I think ultimately the child should determine what he or she wants to do, with children having a rapport with their parents and going to them to talk about things as they figure out what to do.  Like we should go to our Father in heaven when we consider an issue before deciding what we will choose to do.  Other people outside of that parent/child relationship are our brothers or sisters with their own ideas about what we should do, worth listening to but not ultimately determining what other people should do or not do.

The parent/child bond/relationship should be one of the most important relationships any child or parent has, just as our relationship with our Father in heaven should be one of the most important relationships that we have.  The second most important relationship we have should be with our husband or wife, as appropriate, if we have a husband or wife, which should be closer than any other brother/sister relationship we have, with all of us being brothers and sisters of our parents in heaven.

[Navidad]

3 minutes ago, Ahab said:

i think that's a good balance.  I think ultimately the child should determine what he or she wants to do, with children having a rapport with their parents and going to them to talk about things as they figure out what to do.  Like we should go to our Father in heaven when we consider an issue before deciding what we will choose to do.  Other people outside of that parent/child relationship are our brothers or sisters with their own ideas about what we should do, worth listening to but not ultimately determining what other people should do or not do.

The parent/child bond/relationship should be one of the most important relationships any child or parent has, just as our relationship with our Father in heaven should be one of the most important relationships that we have.  The second most important relationship we have should be with our husband or wife, as appropriate, if we have a husband or wife, which should be closer than any other brother/sister relationship we have, with all of us being brothers and sisters of our parents in heaven.

Good post. The only difference I would have is I would rank the husband - wife as more important than the parent-child. Christ and the church are the groom and the bride. Hosea and Gomer/God and Israel emphasizes this, as does II Cor. 11:2 and Rev 19. Matt 19:5 talks about the son leaving his father and mother and clinging to his wife. Children are born to leave. Husbands and wives are brought together in a covenantal relationship for eternity, right? Not something I care to argue about; just a different perspective. 

[Ahab]

3 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Good post. The only difference I would have is I would rank the husband - wife as more important than the parent-child. Christ and the church are the groom and the bride. Hosea and Gomer/God and Israel emphasizes this, as does II Cor. 11:2 and Rev 19. Matt 19:5 talks about the son leaving his father and mother and clinging to his wife. Children are born to leave. Husbands and wives are brought together in a covenantal relationship for eternity, right? Not something I care to argue about; just a different perspective. 

Speaking as a husband with a wife, I believe my relationship with my/our Father in heaven should be more important than my relationship with my wife.  Otherwise I would desire to do my wife's will, whatever it was, even if it conflicted with the will of my/our Father in heaven.

She feels the same way about me too and fortunately we are of the same mind on that issue, otherwise she might get upset with me sometimes if her will did not coincide with the will of her/my/our Father in heaven.

Keeping him centered in that way in our life is what makes everything work out so well, I think, with both of us desiring to do the will of our Father in heaven even if that means we can't or won't do what the other might want us to do that wasn't the will of our Father in heaven.

Now I am going to switch hats and speak as a Father of my children, who are actually my brothers and sisters of our same Father in heaven.  What I want is for them to do the will of our Father in heaven, as well, which may not necessarily be the same as my own will, or your will, or the will of many of our other brothers and sisters.  And when anyone speaks to my children I want them to know they are only hearing from a brother or sister unless they are hearing from our Father in heaven, and it is he who they should desire to please and to do his will.  As a Father I do my best to point that out to them and I also strive to make my will the same will as that of our Father in heaven, but if they ever have any doubt or conflict about who they should listen to, I want them to know they should ultimately learn from their/my/our Father in heaven.