What Would Be the Point?

[teddyaware]

For the purposes of this exercise, let’s accept as true the long held Church teaching that the primary reason for eternal marriages of men and women is procreation, or as Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants puts it, ”a continuation of the seeds forever,”  What, then, would be the rationale for solemnizing eternal marriages between individuals who are, by their very nature, unable to have offspring after the resurrection? The following verse from Doctrine and Covenants 132 strongly suggests that the same kind of procreative process that takes place here in mortality will continue on in the same manner for eternally sealed husbands and wives who inherit the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom.

“30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.”

The expressions “fruit of his loins” and “his seed” are obvious references to the kind of procreative process that occurs while we are in this fallen state, and the Lord clearly indicates that the resurrected Abraham continues to produce seed within his body and that through the means of that seed, howbeit in a more glorious and refined manifestation, he is now enabled to fulfill God’s promise to generate countless offspring throughout eternity. This is, no doubt, the foremost reason why the Family Proclamation asserts that the continuation of our male and female physical identities throughout eternity plays a critically important role in God’s design for his children..

So in light of all the above again I ask, what would be the point of temple sealings between individuals who cannot produce offspring in eternity if the continuation of the fruit of male and female loins in eternity is primarily what eternal life is all about? 
 

Edited March 9, 2020 by teddyaware

[Meadowchik]

What's the point of producing offspring eternally?

Drilling down to that first, is imo a more productive question.

The scriptures say it is for them to have joy.

There's the answer. And if we look at life on earth, it is clear that variety helps to create an environment that is better and more joyful. So eternal beings who engage in eternal creations in different ways might make the eternities better and more whole and joyful.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

And if we look at life on earth, it is clear that variety helps to create an environment that is better and more joyful.

I don't see how this is clear.  Variety brings many bad things as well as good.

Do we really experience any life without variety we could compare to our current lives to?

A limited amount of great things seem to me as more likely to bring joy and create a better life than a multitude of okay, good, and bad things with a few fantastic and few horrible things thrown in for real variety.

Humans can be trained such that a relatively pleasant life is seen as annoying and boring because they are used to a high level of change.  Are kids more likely to turn to a favorite book these days than a new video game?  I used to read my favorite books at least yearly....now I get ticked off if I can't find a decent new show on Netflix. 

Were people bored and unhappy when variety was the Saturday night dance on the village green? They grew up with the same people and supported them and were supported.  Probably people were pretty predictable in their roles at the time.  I think they probably had a pretty satisfying life if they had food and healthy family members and friends and not much to fear.  It was just different expectations than we have now when we might not even recognize our neighbours well enough to say hi and move every few years to find a better situation than the one we have.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Calm

[Duncan]

Cannot produce offspring in the sense of infertility here? which I doubt would exist in the next life, or couples that don't have kids due to choice, age (the Oaks's and Nelsons' are sealed but don't have kids with the second wife)

[Meadowchik]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I don't see how this is clear.  Variety brings many bad things as well as good.

Do we really experience any life without variety we could compare to our current lives to?

A limited amount of great things seem to me as more likely to bring joy and create a better life than a multitude of okay, good, and bad things with a few fantastic and few horrible things thrown in for real variety.

Humans can be trained such that a relatively pleasant life is seen as annoying and boring because they are used to a high level of change.  Are kids more likely to turn to a favorite book these days than a new video game?  I used to read my favorite books at least yearly....now I get ticked off if I can't find a decent new show on Netflix. 

Were people bored and unhappy when variety was the Saturday night dance on the village green? They grew up with the same people and supported them and were supported.  Probably people were pretty predictable in their roles at the time.  I think they probably had a pretty satisfying life if they had food and healthy family members and friends and not much to fear.  It was just different expectations than we have now when we might not even recognize our neighbours well enough to say hi and move every few years to find a better situation than the one we have.

It sounds like you're arguing against unlimited variety. But I am pretty much saying that the (vague, to be fair) sameness of the model of eternal procreation isn't necessarily the only model for joy in an exalted state.

And just as males and females can complement each other biologically--at the communal and cosmic level--homosexual marriages could complement heterosexual marriages. (And other ways beings live could do so, too.)

The OP asked for the point of it all, and I offered a possible one which isn't meant to be all-encompassing. The essential part to me for a joy model is that the relations can be about people with agency choosing to be together, choosing to love as Christ teaches and choosing to jointly rejoice in righteousness and truth. 

And just as making babies together isn't the only way people advance human joy in this world, I think it's safe to say that it would not be the only way to contribute to or experience joy in worlds to come.

Edited March 9, 2020 by Meadowchik

[CV75]

25 minutes ago, Meadowchik said:

It sounds like you're arguing against unlimited variety. But I am pretty much saying that the (vague, to be fair) sameness of the model of eternal procreation isn't necessarily the only model for joy in an exalted state.

And just as makes and females can complement each other biologically, at the communal and cosmic level, homosexual marriages could complement heterosexual marriages. (And other ways beings live could do so, too.)

The OP asked for the point of it all, and I offered a possible one which isn't meant to be all-encompassing. The essential part to me for a joy model is that both kinds of relations can be about people with agency choosing to be together, choosing to love as Christ teaches and choosing to jointly rejoice in righteousness and truth. 

And just as making babies together isn't the only way people advance human joy in this world, I think it's safe to say that it would not be the only way to contribute to joy in worlds to come.

Except for the definition of joy as given in the Garden of Eden story. Other definitions are reflections of D&C 88:32, so other kinds of legitimate joy, that do not require the sealing of couples, are certainly covered and will not be denied, commensurate with the chosen kingdom of glory.

Edited March 9, 2020 by CV75

[teddyaware]

3 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

What's the point of producing offspring eternally?

Drilling down to that first, is imo a more productive question.

The scriptures say it is for them to have joy.

There's the answer. And if we look at life on earth, it is clear that variety helps to create an environment that is better and more joyful. So eternal beings who engage in eternal creations in different ways might make the eternities better and more whole and joyful.

So are you suggesting that producing offspring eternally in order to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man is somehow less meaningful, engaging and fulfilling than having no children for all eternity?

Edited March 9, 2020 by teddyaware

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Duncan said:

Cannot produce offspring in the sense of infertility here? which I doubt would exist in the next life, or couples that don't have kids due to choice, age (the Oaks's and Nelsons' are sealed but don't have kids with the second wife)

No. I mean not being able to have children because two people of the same sex cannot produce children. In this case, even if the two resurrected individuals were fertile, they still would not be able to produce children.

Edited March 9, 2020 by teddyaware

[mgy401]

7 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So in light of all the above again I ask, what would be the point of temple sealings between individuals who cannot produce offspring in eternity if the continuation of the fruit of male and female loins in eternity is primarily what eternal life is all about? 
 

In a word?

Sex.

[teddyaware]

1 hour ago, Meadowchik said:

It sounds like you're arguing against unlimited variety. But I am pretty much saying that the (vague, to be fair) sameness of the model of eternal procreation isn't necessarily the only model for joy in an exalted state.

And just as males and females can complement each other biologically--at the communal and cosmic level--homosexual marriages could complement heterosexual marriages. (And other ways beings live could do so, too.)

The OP asked for the point of it all, and I offered a possible one which isn't meant to be all-encompassing. The essential part to me for a joy model is that the relations can be about people with agency choosing to be together, choosing to love as Christ teaches and choosing to jointly rejoice in righteousness and truth. 

And just as making babies together isn't the only way people advance human joy in this world, I think it's safe to say that it would not be the only way to contribute to or experience joy in worlds to come.

I’m wondering if there’s anything that would prevent two people of the same sex from staying together forever after the resurrection, if that’s what they really chose to do? If so, such people could enjoy an everlasting relationship without having to be formally sealed in the temple. Remember, the clearly stated purpose of temple sealings is to enable men and women to produce posterity both in time and in eternity and to have joy therein. Since two people of the same sex cannot produce children, that would obviate the need for a sealing. Just let them stay together if that’s what they want to do. 

[teddyaware]

13 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

In a word?

Sex.

Of course. The divinely ordained act of procreation is only dirty and unclean to the unholy.

[Meadowchik]

59 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

So are you suggesting that producing offspring eternally in order to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man is somehow less meaningful, engaging and fulfilling than having no children for all eternity?

Where did I even hint at saying one was less than the other? I did not say that.

16 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

I’m wondering if there’s anything that would prevent two people of the same sex from staying together forever after the resurrection, if that’s what they really chose to do? If so, such people could enjoy an everlasting relationship without having to be formally sealed in the temple. Remember, the clearly stated purpose of temple sealings is to enable men and women to produce posterity both in time and in eternity and to have joy therein. Since two people of the same sex cannot produce children, that would obviate the need for a sealing. Just let them stay together if that’s what they want to do. 

I would say that we're taught that families are separated without the sealing. 

[longview]

1 hour ago, teddyaware said:

4 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

What's the point of producing offspring eternally?

Drilling down to that first, is imo a more productive question.

The scriptures say it is for them to have joy.

There's the answer. And if we look at life on earth, it is clear that variety helps to create an environment that is better and more joyful. So eternal beings who engage in eternal creations in different ways might make the eternities better and more whole and joyful.

So are you suggesting that producing offspring eternally in order to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man is somehow less meaningful, engaging and fulfilling than having no children for all eternity?

I believe the Universe to be infinite in scope and infinite in time.  There exists an infinite number of intelligences that are anxious for the opportunity to become SPIRIT children of Heavenly Parents capable of "seeding" them through complementary physical process (male/female).   As spirit children they will have new and powerful attributes that they will develop and grow as they are being taught by Godly Parents.

But eventually they will "plateau off" and not be able to progress any further but they will understand they still have not reached the level of the Gods. At that point, the Gods will offer them the "Plan of Happiness" in which they can progress even further.  Those that are faithful and valiant in the "Second Estate" will merit (because of the Power of the Atonement) the status of a god who will be trusted to invite the next group of intelligences (Eternal Round) to participate (Eternal Increase).

All because of the LOVE that each and every one of us can feel (and act upon).  Which is Eternal Joy.

47 minutes ago, mgy401 said:

In a word?

Sex.

If that is the only motivation, you can be guaranteed you WILL get bored after a couple million years.  No REAL love, only self centered gratification.  No real vision.  No meaningful purpose for doing the work/service.

[mgy401]

52 minutes ago, teddyaware said:

Of course. The divinely ordained act of procreation is only dirty and unclean to the unholy.

Well . . . it’s dirty and unclean outside of an appropriate covenantal relationship; and even within such a relationship, it can become a problem if we make it a priority at the expense of other virtues and commitments.

I agree with the point I think you’re getting at; which I interpret as being that other than eternal increase, that in the eternities most of the relational/bonding benefits we  tend to associate with “marriage” can actually be obtained via “friendship”.  The one aspect that can’t be (at least, if we pay lip service to the idea that the Law of Chastity is an eternal principle), is the idea of sexual attraction and gratification.

I agree that that’s a feeble justification for eternal marriage—and that, to me, is the whole point.  Eternal marriage *IS* eternal increase.  Otherwise, it makes no sense on either an institutional or an individual basis.  People who express a hope for—say—gay sealings, apparently don’t make this logical connection.  

There is a growing segment of society that believes death preferable to an asexual existence; and that attitude is spilling over within the Church to lead some to the belief that loss-of-exaltation is preferable to exaltation without the sort of sexual gratification to which they’ve become accustomed.

Edited March 9, 2020 by mgy401

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Meadowchik said:

t sounds like you're arguing against unlimited variety

I am arguing against claiming something is an obvious fact when it hasn’t been demonstrated. 

It may purely be a matter of choice in the eternities as it is here. Variety can be upsetting to some and not to others. 

Variety works in some areas (tulips) and not that well in others (keyboards...how would you like to learn how retype every time you buy new tech?)

There are also certain actions that variations of would seem to be undesirable, a deadly virus constantly mutating, climate change, solar output.  Somethings work best by never changing, clocks, orbits, the laws of physics....

Quote

But I am pretty much saying that the (vague, to be fair) sameness of the model of eternal procreation isn't necessarily the only model for joy in an exalted state.

The Plan of Salvation may be based on laws of eternal human behaviour that we are not aware of because we cannot understand the complexities at our level of intellect nor have we lived long enough to understand what type of behaviours bring everlasting joy in the eternities. 

Guessing there may be more than one way and then changing standards based on those guesses meant to prepare us for eternities seems unwise to me.  Even using mortal standards of what works best is fundamentally flawed because of variation of cultures.

What brings people satisfaction and perhaps joy in sexual relationships varies from culture and even person to person.  We accept as a culture some behaviours and find others less ideal, but not criminal and still others are seen as criminal.  Other cultures draw the lines elsewhere  

Why would we looking at things eternally assume our moment in time and location has it the best?

Since we are incapable in this, seems wisest to leave it to God imo. Those who have good reason to trust prophets may choose to trust their words or the confirming Spirit. Those who don’t may choose other approaches. 

Edited March 9, 2020 by Calm

[Tacenda]

8 hours ago, teddyaware said:

For the purposes of this exercise, let’s accept as true the long held Church teaching that the primary reason for eternal marriages of men and women is procreation, or as Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants puts it, ”a continuation of the seeds forever,”  What, then, would be the rationale for solemnizing eternal marriages between individuals who are, by their very nature, unable to have offspring after the resurrection? The following verse from Doctrine and Covenants 132 strongly suggests that the same kind of procreative process that takes place here in mortality will continue on in the same manner for eternally sealed husbands and wives who inherit the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom.

“30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.”

The expressions “fruit of his loins” and “his seed” are obvious references to the kind of procreative process that occurs while we are in this fallen state, and the Lord clearly indicates that the resurrected Abraham continues to produce seed within his body and that through the means of that seed, howbeit in a more glorious and refined manifestation, he is now enabled to fulfill God’s promise to generate countless offspring throughout eternity. This is, no doubt, the foremost reason why the Family Proclamation asserts that the continuation of our male and female physical identities throughout eternity plays a critically important role in God’s design for his children..

So in light of all the above again I ask, what would be the point of temple sealings between individuals who cannot produce offspring in eternity if the continuation of the fruit of male and female loins in eternity is primarily what eternal life is all about? 
 

And all this time I thought it was to live with God....

[Meadowchik]

13 minutes ago, Calm said:

I am arguing against claiming something is an obvious fact when it hasn’t been demonstrated. 

It may purely be a matter of choice in the eternities as it is here. Variety can be upsetting to some and not to others. 

Variety works in some areas (tulips) and not that well in others (keyboards...how would you like to learn how retype every time you buy new tech?)

There are also certain actions that variations of would seem to be undesirable, a deadly virus constantly mutating, climate change, solar output.  Somethings work best by never changing, clocks, orbits, the laws of physics....

The Plan of Salvation may be based on laws of eternal human behaviour that we are not aware of because we cannot understand the complexities at our level of intellect nor have we lived long enough to understand what type of behaviours bring everlasting joy in the eternities. 

What brings people satisfaction and perhaps joy in sexual relationships varies from culture and even person to person.  We accept as a culture some behaviours and find others less ideal, but not criminal and still others are seen as criminal.  Other cultures draw the lines elsewhere  

Why would we looking at things eternally assume our moment in time and location has it the best?

Since we are incapable in this, seems wisest to leave it to God imo. Those who have good reason to trust prophets may choose to trust their words or the confirming Spirit. Those who don’t may choose other approaches. 

Variety is an inherent aspect of biology, which then makes human life and living possible. Human variations make adaptation possible, and enables things like complementing and collaborating to produce (not just procreate) all kinds of sources of life and joy.

Variety does make, like you say, more types of bad things possible than before, but also more types of good things, a multifold array of opposition in the human condition, that is (according to the BOM, a teaching with which I agree)  very important requirement for experiencing joy.

So I do think it is quite clear, from a secular and doctrinal point of view.

[hope_for_things]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

For the purposes of this exercise, let’s accept as true the long held Church teaching that the primary reason for eternal marriages of men and women is procreation, or as Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants puts it, ”a continuation of the seeds forever,”  What, then, would be the rationale for solemnizing eternal marriages between individuals who are, by their very nature, unable to have offspring after the resurrection? The following verse from Doctrine and Covenants 132 strongly suggests that the same kind of procreative process that takes place here in mortality will continue on in the same manner for eternally sealed husbands and wives who inherit the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom.

“30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.”

The expressions “fruit of his loins” and “his seed” are obvious references to the kind of procreative process that occurs while we are in this fallen state, and the Lord clearly indicates that the resurrected Abraham continues to produce seed within his body and that through the means of that seed, howbeit in a more glorious and refined manifestation, he is now enabled to fulfill God’s promise to generate countless offspring throughout eternity. This is, no doubt, the foremost reason why the Family Proclamation asserts that the continuation of our male and female physical identities throughout eternity plays a critically important role in God’s design for his children..

So in light of all the above again I ask, what would be the point of temple sealings between individuals who cannot produce offspring in eternity if the continuation of the fruit of male and female loins in eternity is primarily what eternal life is all about? 
 

I don't think this idea of eternal sex has any staying power within Mormon theology.  It really hasn't been codified and directly perpetuated in our teachings, especially in recent years as some of the more esoteric teachings by earlier leaders on this topic have looked increasingly strange in the broader culture, ideas like this have fallen out of favor with more recent leaders.  See the answer to questions by President Hinckley during some of his more high profile interviews, or the Gospel Topics essay on becoming like God as examples of this kind of distancing from prior teachings.  

Edited March 9, 2020 by hope_for_things

[Duncan]

I think the aganst against homosexuality is a social construct, I mean I think it's barf making but others don't. In the resurrection celestialized married heterosexuals will be able to produce spirit children, whereas now it's only mortal children, the spirit children making abilities require a change of some sort due to our being resurrected, I am open to the possibility that gay people can reproduce. If a Woman in the next world can have billions of children whereas now, it's 2-3, 6 kids? 14 kids? something has to change for her to increase that number exponentially to have billions and billions, as I say why not a change to gay people? Here we have absolutely no clue as to how to create "worlds without number" Moses 1:32-33, so in the next life why not be able do something like that with gay people having kids, if you can figure out how to create worlds then what's stopping you? Here we are not even moving on from step 1 about the World, people still argue about is the world flat or round? 6000 years old or not? Actually creating worlds without number you would be on step googolplex. Besides of which  I hear the Resurrection changes people!

Edited March 9, 2020 by Duncan

[JAHS]

9 hours ago, teddyaware said:

For the purposes of this exercise, let’s accept as true the long held Church teaching that the primary reason for eternal marriages of men and women is procreation, or as Section 132 of the Doctrine and Covenants puts it, ”a continuation of the seeds forever,”  What, then, would be the rationale for solemnizing eternal marriages between individuals who are, by their very nature, unable to have offspring after the resurrection? The following verse from Doctrine and Covenants 132 strongly suggests that the same kind of procreative process that takes place here in mortality will continue on in the same manner for eternally sealed husbands and wives who inherit the highest degree of glory in the celestial kingdom.

“30 Abraham received promises concerning his seed, and of the fruit of his loins—from whose loins ye are, namely, my servant Joseph—which were to continue so long as they were in the world; and as touching Abraham and his seed, out of the world they should continue; both in the world and out of the world should they continue as innumerable as the stars; or, if ye were to count the sand upon the seashore ye could not number them.”

The expressions “fruit of his loins” and “his seed” are obvious references to the kind of procreative process that occurs while we are in this fallen state, and the Lord clearly indicates that the resurrected Abraham continues to produce seed within his body and that through the means of that seed, howbeit in a more glorious and refined manifestation, he is now enabled to fulfill God’s promise to generate countless offspring throughout eternity. This is, no doubt, the foremost reason why the Family Proclamation asserts that the continuation of our male and female physical identities throughout eternity plays a critically important role in God’s design for his children..

So in light of all the above again I ask, what would be the point of temple sealings between individuals who cannot produce offspring in eternity if the continuation of the fruit of male and female loins in eternity is primarily what eternal life is all about? 
 

I think this is meant to be figurative when it comes to the next life. We don't know how two resurrected beings are going to make children that are only spirits without bodies. We only know that it takes a male and female resurrected exalted beings to do this and therefore a same gender couple are not going to be able to do it.  We are also assuming that in the resurrection those who are gay will remain gay, although it has been suggested by some church leaders that condition might be corrected at resurrection. 

 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

We are also assuming that in the resurrection those who are gay will remain gay, although it has been suggested by some church leaders that condition might be corrected at resurrection. 

Who is assuming this?

[JAHS]

5 minutes ago, Calm said:

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

We are also assuming that in the resurrection those who are gay will remain gay, although it has been suggested by some church leaders that condition might be corrected at resurrection. 

Who is assuming this?

Teddy seemed to be speaking as if the condition was not going to change. 

[Duncan]

29 minutes ago, Calm said:

Who is assuming this?

Elder Bruce C. Hafen, 2009 – On September 19 Seventy Bruce Hafen promised members of Evergreen that if they were faithful they may develop heterosexual attractions in this life, and would be resurrected with heterosexual attractions, citing apostle Oaks and affirming that "it MUST be true" (emphasis in original).^{[377]:79[408][138]}

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_The_Church_of_Jesus_Christ_of_Latter-day_Saints

[Robert F. Smith]

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

....................... the resurrected Abraham continues to produce seed within his body and that through the means of that seed, howbeit in a more glorious and refined manifestation, he is now enabled to fulfill God’s promise to generate countless offspring throughout eternity. This is, no doubt, the foremost reason why the Family Proclamation asserts that the continuation of our male and female physical identities throughout eternity plays a critically important role in God’s design for his children..

I Cor 2:6-7 "Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:"    What does that even mean?

11 hours ago, teddyaware said:

So in light of all the above again I ask, what would be the point of temple sealings between individuals who cannot produce offspring in eternity if the continuation of the fruit of male and female loins in eternity is primarily what eternal life is all about?

Sounds like a mystery to me.  Akin to the Lord and two of his angels  visiting Abraham at Mamre and eating a full-course meal with him there (Gen 18).  The Resurrected Jesus likewise eats with his disciples (Luke 24:42-43).  How can eternal beings engage in human physiological activities?

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, teddyaware said:

Of course. The divinely ordained act of procreation is only dirty and unclean to the unholy.

And to whoever has to wash the sheets afterwards.