Baptism, Marriage, and the Kingdom of God

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It used to be that common law marriage was as valid as any formal union, and one can see that in Hispanic records where the marriage status is "consensual," which carries all the legal force of formal civil or religious marriage.  I think most of the states of the USA no longer recognize common law marriage.  Everything is statutory now.

Yeah, last time I checked there were only 8 states that recognized it. A lot of states have legacy common law marriages but those will vanish in time. It is almost entirely gone in Europe.

Edited December 8, 2019 by The Nehor

[Jane_Doe]

On 12/5/2019 at 11:52 AM, Navidad said:

 

Thanks for your patience in reading this. Those of you who remember my posts know I can be wordy. I am simply trying to accurately and without ill will describe something that is so very important to me. If I am misstating the real live, bottom line, no kidding position of the Church, please let me know what I have misunderstood and misstated. I won't argue with you. I am here to listen. Thanks so much.

<Writing this as a LDS Christian lady who's married to a generic Christian dude>

It's not that your marriage is "illegitimate".   Your marriage is still very real and a very good thing.  However, you (and I) have both not yet formally welcomed God into our marriages and made that covenant with Him.  

On 12/7/2019 at 7:09 AM, Navidad said:

Isn't "only" by its very nature a word that implies "exclusion" of all others' ordinances and beliefs? If I said to you that you can only achieve this or that by accepting Mennonite baptism and that some day you will have the opportunity to experience eternal life by becoming Mennonite in this world or the next, wouldn't you think that a bit exclusive of me? 

Not at all. 

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Jane_Doe

[RevTestament]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:22 AM, Navidad said:

So I struggle with seeing how I can join a church that claims something that I so fundamentally disagree with, that it has the sole authority, it has the only saving ordinances, it is the only true and living way. Jesus had the audacity in John 14 to declare himself “the way, the truth and the life.” He didn’t declare that on behalf of a church. It is all about a personal relationship with Christ. My baptism was a testimony of that relationship. The laying on me with hands and oil to ordain me to serve, was to bring people to a personal and individual saving knowledge of Christ, not to the Baptist, Mennonite, or LDS church or faith. When I see a faithful Mormon, I actually see a faithful Christian, not a target for proselytizing to a Mennonite way of life. I don't see movement between Christian churches as "conversion." It is simply a different affiliation for and at a different time. I know we fundamentally will disagree on this point. That is ok. I still love and respect what I can learn from many of you. I hope this helps.

John 13:

8 Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 9 Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 

If one believes Him will he do what Yeshua asks? If Yeshua says we need to be baptized, should we resist? Did the early church have bishops authorized by apostles? If there was no need for apostles and bishops to perform ordinances asked of us by Yeshua, how come there were bishops and apostles? Was the early Church simply in error? If so, how likely is it that the present churches fell into error?

A personal relationship with the Savior is important, but so is doing what He asks of us... friend.

 

[Bernard Gui]

On 12/5/2019 at 10:52 AM, Navidad said:

Unless I am re-baptized in this dispensation or the next, my salvation has no entrance door; without membership in the Church of Jesus Christ I am not a member of the Kingdom of God in this dispensation on this earth, and with marriage outside of “proper authority” I am living in an illegitimate marital relationship. Therefore, according to LDS doctrinal positions, all three of my strongest senses of self are self-deceiving, null and void? Is that correct? If not, what have I misstated or misunderstood? What is left of me?  

I don’t worry too much about what members of other religions think of me. As a life-long Latter-day Saint, I’ve been told to my face all those things you listed above - and far worse, such as “You are a follower of Satan,” “If you pray about the Book of Mormon, Satan will answer your prayer,” “How can you be so stupid to be a Mormon,” “You worship Joseph Smith instead of God,” “God has predestined you to  damnation,” “The Jesus you worship is really a devil,” “You believe your good works will get you to heaven, but that really means you are going to Hell,” “Your temple is full of people committing obscene acts,” ”Your temple uses the signs of Satan worship,” and much more.

I doubt you would say those things to a Latter-day Saint, but I also doubt you believe the doctrines and truth claims of the LDS Church, so where does that leave us?
 

Edited December 9, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

On 12/7/2019 at 6:09 AM, Navidad said:

If I said to you that you can only achieve this or that by accepting Mennonite baptism and that some day you will have the opportunity to experience eternal life by becoming Mennonite in this world or the next, wouldn't you think that a bit exclusive of me? 

No.

You would sound like every other person who thinks their way is the only way.

That's the irony. 

You seem to think that the only exclusively correct path is one that is not exclusive.

How about Zoroastrianism?  Are Parsis saved?

Where'd you get this exclusive idea that you have to believe in Jesus Christ?

Seriously!!

Sounds pretty exclusionary to me!

 

 

Edited December 9, 2019 by mfbukowski

[let’s roll]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:24 AM, Navidad said:

All I can do is shout a hearty "amen" to that!

And I add my hearty amen as well.  My belief is that all who earnestly desire to follow the Savior have the opportunity to inquire of Deity, “what lack I yet,” receive an answer from Deity specific to them, and exercise their agency in determining whether to “hear” that Divine response and if heard, how to act on the response.

Godspeed to you.

[Calm]

On 12/7/2019 at 7:09 AM, Navidad said:

If I said to you that you can only achieve this or that by accepting Mennonite baptism and that some day you will have the opportunity to experience eternal life by becoming Mennonite in this world or the next, wouldn't you think that a bit exclusive of me? 

I think many members look at it like a path up a mountain, there may be several options to start but eventually only one is going to get you to the top. Since anyone can choose to use it, it is not seen as exclusive, but instead simply necessary. 

[pogi]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:22 AM, Navidad said:

So I struggle with seeing how I can join a church that claims something that I so fundamentally disagree with, that it has the sole authority, it has the only saving ordinances, it is the only true and living way. Jesus had the audacity in John 14 to declare himself “the way, the truth and the life.” He didn’t declare that on behalf of a church. It is all about a personal relationship with Christ. My baptism was a testimony of that relationship. The laying on me with hands and oil to ordain me to serve, was to bring people to a personal and individual saving knowledge of Christ, not to the Baptist, Mennonite, or LDS church or faith. When I see a faithful Mormon, I actually see a faithful Christian, not a target for proselytizing to a Mennonite way of life. I don't see movement between Christian churches as "conversion." It is simply a different affiliation for and at a different time. I know we fundamentally will disagree on this point. That is ok. I still love and respect what I can learn from many of you. I hope this helps.

This has always been the key issue with you - that the authority the Church professes is exclusionary.  I partly understand where you are coming from as your relationship with Christ is obviously profoundly sincere, meaningful, and deep.  If there is one thing that we can agree upon it is that Christ is "the way, the truth, and the life." 

In a Book of Mormon passage Nephi states that there are only 2 churches, the Church of the Lamb of God, and the Church of the devil.  Many interpret this to be a typology.

Quote

 

While Nephi’s vision presents a compelling view of the Church when looked at historically, there is also value in examining Nephi’s description as a typology. For example, it is clear from Nephi’s descriptions in 1 Nephi 13 and 14 that no single historical organization quite fits the profile of the great and abominable church. The church of the devil is a type, designed to represent the work of the adversary among all people, nations, and societies in the world. Elder Bruce R. McConkie wrote, “The church of the devil is every evil and worldly organization on earth. It is all of the systems, both Christian and non-Christian, that have perverted the pure and perfect gospel: it is all of the governments and powers that have run counter to divine will. . . . It is the man of sin speaking in churches, orating in legislative halls, and commanding the armies of men.” [25] Taken typologically, the church of the devil is a powerful symbol for the influence of evil in all its manifestations.

What, then, are typological implications for the church of the Lamb of God? If we apply Elder McConkie’s logic in both directions, the pavilion under which the church of the Lamb resides must be enlarged to include “every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ” (Moroni 7:16). Membership in the church of the Lamb in this context expands beyond denominational lines to include all who genuinely strive to do good according to the light they have been given. The Savior expressed this idea in the Doctrine and Covenants when he proclaimed, “Let Zion rejoice, for this is Zion—the pure in heart; therefore, let Zion rejoice, while all the wicked shall mourn” (D&C 97:21).

This interpretation should not be taken to contradict the statements shared earlier which identified the Church of the Lamb with the Latter-day Saints. An important contribution the revelations of the Restoration make to Christian theology is the authoritative declaration that all people are judged by two standards: “according to their works, [and] according to the desire of their hearts” (D&C 137:9). This allows us to recognize righteous individuals outside of our own faith who will stand in opposition to the work of the church of the devil. By this standard there are members of all faiths who may reside within the church of the Lamb of God, and there may be people on the rolls of the Latter-day Saints who reside in the church of the devil. By this standard, membership in the church of the Lamb is based on the desires of your heart, not which church you attend. [26]

https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/things-which-my-father-saw/3-church-lamb-god

 

Navidad, this Church of the Lamb very much fits the description of what you believe.  It is even less exclusionary than your own faith in that it includes non-Christians as well, and all who "genuinely strive to do good according to the light (Christ) they have been given".  I consider you to be an exemplary member of the Church of the Lamb of God.   By this understanding the only thing that is taken into consideration is the heart of man, and you, my friend, have a good heart from my POV.  I wish more in my Church could be like you in many ways.

It is my firm conviction that those who belong to the Church of the lamb and remain faithful will know and accept Christ fully and enjoy life and eternity with Him in exaltation.  They will obey him and follow Him in all that he commands.  Line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little they will come to a fullness of the truth.  They will accept all of His words, including those he spoke to the ancient inhabitants of America and to modern day prophets, recorded in the BoM and D&C, including everything Christ himself has said about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the ordinances, and will follow Him in them.

All members of the Church of the Lamb of God are at different stages of progression, but we are all on the same "Way", heeding the same light of "Truth", and will all eventually be filled with the same "Life". 

Edited December 9, 2019 by pogi

[pogi]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:22 AM, Navidad said:

So I struggle with seeing how I can join a church that claims something that I so fundamentally disagree with

To add to what I already posted - 

I understand that one of your biggest problems with the Church is that it is "exclusionary", but I have never really heard how you feel about Joseph Smith, or the idea of Modern prophets, or the idea of prophets in general as a mouthpiece for God.  You have attended Church for many years now, I am sure that you have read at least some of the Book of Mormon...what are your views there?

[Ahab]

On 12/7/2019 at 7:22 AM, Navidad said:

Ok. Now I will attempt to answer your other questions. I haven't become a "faithful member" of an LDS ward for several reasons. I am quite happy, content and comfortable within a Mennonite expression of my faith. It meets the majority of my spiritual needs. I acknowledge that it is not for everyone. It, like Mormonism and Judaism is a culture as well as a location for the expression of faith. My wife and I have prayed and chatted at length about this. We are both in agreement that we see nothing in the LDS church that is unavailable to us within our current formal faith affiliation. I think that we are also impacted by how much our LDS friends struggle to measure up, to have assurance, to know what lies in their future. Saints criticize non-LDS Christians for practicing a salvation that is too easy. Perhaps I feel that the LDS church is too, well - too hard on people. I have never fellowshipped with such a stressed bunch of folks.

Also, as I said many times, and this is the most important thing - my primary sense of self is as a Christian - redeemed by the atonement of Christ, sealed by his blood and assured of an eternal life with him. That "blessed assurance" is not cheap grace. It is not easy believism as some critics claim. It is a calm surrender to the grace that Christ offers me. As Paul says in Ephesians it is a gift directly from Christ to me as an individual.

That redemption is not offered, in my belief, by or through any church, group, or denomination. It is an individual decision; a covenant made between Christ and me. Just as marriage is a covenant between my wife and me as individuals, so is my Christian faith a matter of a commitment between me and Christ. So, while my church affiliation is a means for me to learn, grow, worship, fellowship and be held accountable, it is nothing more than that. So I could become neither Catholic, Mormon, nor a member of any other church that claims for itself an exclusive right to control salvation or exaltation (sanctification) which are both matters of an individual relationship with Christ. The church is where I am fed, nourished and refreshed, as well as is the riverside, the forest, the quiet still place where I can get my thirst quenched. Attending, fellowshipping, and worshiping in an LDS ward is a means to being nourished; as is attendance at a Mennonite or Baptist church. They are all a bit different. I miss the preaching, the music, and the in-depth Bible study of my Mennonite church. I welcome and enjoy the fellowship, the way the LDS church stretches my mind, robs me of my preconceptions, and teaches me. I admire the Godly leadership of our local leaders in our ward just as I did that of the bishops and leaders of the Mennonite and Baptist churches we have attended. I see no difference in Godliness between the churches or the people therein. That is because people are indwelt by the Holy Spirit, not churches. The Holy Spirit is present in the LDS ward, as it is in the Mennonite church because the Holy Spirit indwells the Christians who attend there. We are as individuals the physical visible presence of God on earth as was the shekinah glory on the ark before God withdrew it in Ezekiel and as was Christ when He was here on earth.

So I struggle with seeing how I can join a church that claims something that I so fundamentally disagree with, that it has the sole authority, it has the only saving ordinances, it is the only true and living way. Jesus had the audacity in John 14 to declare himself “the way, the truth and the life.” He didn’t declare that on behalf of a church. It is all about a personal relationship with Christ. My baptism was a testimony of that relationship. The laying on me with hands and oil to ordain me to serve, was to bring people to a personal and individual saving knowledge of Christ, not to the Baptist, Mennonite, or LDS church or faith. When I see a faithful Mormon, I actually see a faithful Christian, not a target for proselytizing to a Mennonite way of life. I don't see movement between Christian churches as "conversion." It is simply a different affiliation for and at a different time. I know we fundamentally will disagree on this point. That is ok. I still love and respect what I can learn from many of you. I hope this helps.

The bold black highlighted text is what stood out to me to help me understand where you are and where you are coming from, spiritually speaking.  The bold red highlighted text is what stood out to me as something I felt I should respond to in an attempt to help you advance a little more, spiritually speaking.  I feel I can also better understand why you asked the questions you did in your opening post of this thread now, too.

The primary issue here is all about authority, i believe.  By what authority does anyone do or say whatever they do or say?  You say you believe... what you believe... and other people say what they believe, too. And all that does is to tell someone else where they are, spiritually speaking.  Not that others will necessarily understand or agree.   Sometimes people don't understand someone else's words correctly and even when they do they aren't necessarily at the same place, spiritually speaking.  But at least expressing our beliefs with each other does facilitate something to work with as we try to understand each other, if we want to understand and want to communicate our ideas to other people.

Understanding the need for authority is one of the main issues that prepared me to be ready to join the Church, before I gained a testimony from God to assure me that Joseph Smith was a prophet of God and that the Book of Mormon was an ancient record of people who lived somewhere on the American continent a long time ago, a record which Joseph was directed to find and then translate through the power of God.  Before I had even heard about the Church or the Book of Mormon I had experienced an example of how important it is to have someone or some group of people in authority to direct the work of God, whatever God wanted done, and the people who God wanted to do that work. My Dad was a minister of a church called the 'Church of Christ' and the elders and deacons there (older men who were leaders of that church who were called elders or deacons) had major disagreements about what should be done and how things should be done and it caused a split in that church, or congregation of that church, as one group left that congregation and started another congregation with some different teachings and practices, and ministers, in support of what each had decided was right.  While seeing that happen, as it was happening, I often thought of how wonderful it would be if there had been apostles to guide that church, as there had been in the old days when the Church of Christ had apostles, and while talking with my Dad about it he said there weren't apostles any more because they weren't necessary anymore, having completed their work by giving us the Bible.  And I just sat there amazed that he thought that after seeing what I had seen, and how I still thought apostles really could have helped in that situation.  And who knows, maybe the Church would still have split even if there had been apostles to try to guide the Church and ,try to keep everyone together and in agreement with each other,  but at least that way there would have been higher authorities to appeal to when trying to help everyone stay together.   But yes, apparently my Dad was right that there were no apostles anymore.  At least not in that Church of Christ.  And remember this was before I had heard about the true Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which does have apostles of our Lord in our day.

Not that everyone accepts them as such, or accepts what they say as the truth or the way that actually works and is right and is the way it is supposed to be.  You, for example, as you associate with our Church, just don't realize the authority our Lord has given them, just like he gave his authority to the apostles during his mortal ministry and then continued to appoint apostles like Paul and Barnabas and maybe some others until there were no apostles appointed to guide the true Church of Christ because people thought and believed they didn't need them any more.

Edited December 9, 2019 by Ahab

[Navidad]

I want to apologize to all who posted on this thread. I haven't been on the forum in about ten days. Because of that I haven't replied as I should have. I have read all your posts and appreciate them very much. I especially appreciate the kind spirit that each of you has displayed to me. My wife and I are on a journey. We are worshiping and fellowshipping where we believe God wants us right now. We will most likely never join, but we will enjoy our time together in the ward. Pogi asked me some questions. I will endeavor to answer them as accurately as I can. I can answer his question about Joseph Smith and modern day prophets in the same answer. I believe Joseph Smith and the modern day LDS prophets are prophets in the same sense I believe that John Wesley, Billy Sunday, A. W. Tozer, and Billy Graham were modern day prophets. I do not believe any of them were/are prophets in the Old Testament sense. They are prophets in that they are forth-tellers - they are great preachers who are gifted by God in an unusual way to teach and proclaim his truth to the masses. I believe all of them flunk the forthtelling aspect of the OT prophet. They show no ability to know what is going on somewhere else or to predict anything about the future. Via the Holy Spirit/Ghost all believers are subject to promptings, revelations, insights, and yes visions and dreams. That is not the exclusive domain of the prophet, either modern or ancient. In this way I believe the Church is inaccurate when it indicates that it is somehow unique in that it believes in ongoing revelation. I don't know any Christians who don't believe that God can and does still speak to us today in a variety of methods. 

LDS Scriptures? I have read the Book of Mormon probably twenty times cover to cover. I think it is orthodox in its teachings and allegorical/mythological (in a hermeneutic sense) in its history. I regret that so many of the post-BOM teachings and doctrine of the church as found in the other two books of scripture are so "non-orthodox." - remember, you asked what I think.  I think a case could even be made that the trinity is found in the BOM, or at least a tight unity of the Godhead. There are different styles of writing in the BOM that I enjoy. The Gospel of Christ is there in a very clear fashion. I believe that all that is necessary for salvation is there. I think less of the Doctrine and Covenants and even less of the Pearl of Great Price. I must admit that my lack of enthusiasm for them is that they are less Biblical. The Doctrine and Covenants is a confusing collection of things old and new; mostly new.  There you have it. You asked me what I think (believe) I have tried to honestly answer in a straight-forward manner. I remain confused as to what the term "Christian" means to a Saint. I think I will start a new thread on that.

We enjoy worship and fellowship in the ward. We had "our" big annual community Christmas concert Sunday night. Both the first counselor to our bishop (who was the director) and our stake president thanked me in the days since for "sharing my talent" with them in the concert. I appreciated that and of course, like so much that is said, it bothered me as well. I am not sharing my talent (such as it is) with them. I am taking part in an activity of my church - the church we faithfully attend and serve. It is our church home. We want to be considered part of the family. It was a family event for the community. There is no way I wouldn't sing in that effort, unless of course they told me I wasn't allowed to, as happened five years ago. God has given us our gifts and talents to serve Him wherever we are. Where we are right now is in the first ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Colonia Juarez, Mexico. We don't want to be foster children. We want to serve and minister in any way we can. I think the folks here have a hard time grasping that concept. Maybe they never will. We will continue to serve and work with all our strength in the ward until either we go home to be with the Lord or until He returns in his glory!  

[Navidad]

16 hours ago, Attalus said:

I hope this doesn't come across as rude but it seems that you don't understand that for you to become a part of that family you will need to become a member of that Church, otherwise you will only be a visitor and guest there even if you attend every meeting open to the general public. To become a member you must be baptized by someone with authority in that Church, at which point your name will be registered in the membership records of the Church.  I'm sure they'll help you to understand how to become a member whenever you express an interest in joining that Church.

I don't think you are being rude. The ward we attend is our church home. There is no ifs, ands, or buts about it. We clean it, we serve in it, we sing in it, we pray, take the sacrament, minister, and I could go on and on. We are neither guests nor visitors. In fact, we are speaking in 2020 in SLC on what it is like to be a faith non-member of an LDS ward in the hopes to open a dialogue that the church might consider providing a new category for attendance and ministry (not membership). No interest in being registered except as a non-member faithful attendee. I understand your baptism point, but we have already been baptized by immersion and have no prompting to do so again. If the church would allow a dual-membership, we would do that. We are not interested in being members if that means losing our membership in our home church.  Our membership is elsewhere 1500 miles away. As long as we are living where we are, the ward is our church home, our source of spiritual refreshment. I understand it isn't the norm; but it is our reality. Take care.

[pogi]

22 hours ago, Navidad said:

I want to apologize to all who posted on this thread. I haven't been on the forum in about ten days. Because of that I haven't replied as I should have. I have read all your posts and appreciate them very much. I especially appreciate the kind spirit that each of you has displayed to me. My wife and I are on a journey. We are worshiping and fellowshipping where we believe God wants us right now. We will most likely never join, but we will enjoy our time together in the ward. Pogi asked me some questions. I will endeavor to answer them as accurately as I can. I can answer his question about Joseph Smith and modern day prophets in the same answer. I believe Joseph Smith and the modern day LDS prophets are prophets in the same sense I believe that John Wesley, Billy Sunday, A. W. Tozer, and Billy Graham were modern day prophets. I do not believe any of them were/are prophets in the Old Testament sense. They are prophets in that they are forth-tellers - they are great preachers who are gifted by God in an unusual way to teach and proclaim his truth to the masses. I believe all of them flunk the forthtelling aspect of the OT prophet. They show no ability to know what is going on somewhere else or to predict anything about the future. Via the Holy Spirit/Ghost all believers are subject to promptings, revelations, insights, and yes visions and dreams. That is not the exclusive domain of the prophet, either modern or ancient. In this way I believe the Church is inaccurate when it indicates that it is somehow unique in that it believes in ongoing revelation. I don't know any Christians who don't believe that God can and does still speak to us today in a variety of methods. 

LDS Scriptures? I have read the Book of Mormon probably twenty times cover to cover. I think it is orthodox in its teachings and allegorical/mythological (in a hermeneutic sense) in its history. I regret that so many of the post-BOM teachings and doctrine of the church as found in the other two books of scripture are so "non-orthodox." - remember, you asked what I think.  I think a case could even be made that the trinity is found in the BOM, or at least a tight unity of the Godhead. There are different styles of writing in the BOM that I enjoy. The Gospel of Christ is there in a very clear fashion. I believe that all that is necessary for salvation is there. I think less of the Doctrine and Covenants and even less of the Pearl of Great Price. I must admit that my lack of enthusiasm for them is that they are less Biblical. The Doctrine and Covenants is a confusing collection of things old and new; mostly new.  There you have it. You asked me what I think (believe) I have tried to honestly answer in a straight-forward manner. I remain confused as to what the term "Christian" means to a Saint. I think I will start a new thread on that.

We enjoy worship and fellowship in the ward. We had "our" big annual community Christmas concert Sunday night. Both the first counselor to our bishop (who was the director) and our stake president thanked me in the days since for "sharing my talent" with them in the concert. I appreciated that and of course, like so much that is said, it bothered me as well. I am not sharing my talent (such as it is) with them. I am taking part in an activity of my church - the church we faithfully attend and serve. It is our church home. We want to be considered part of the family. It was a family event for the community. There is no way I wouldn't sing in that effort, unless of course they told me I wasn't allowed to, as happened five years ago. God has given us our gifts and talents to serve Him wherever we are. Where we are right now is in the first ward of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Colonia Juarez, Mexico. We don't want to be foster children. We want to serve and minister in any way we can. I think the folks here have a hard time grasping that concept. Maybe they never will. We will continue to serve and work with all our strength in the ward until either we go home to be with the Lord or until He returns in his glory!  

Thanks for the response Navidad!

I think part of the reason that people like you are so unique and unexpected is because people generally view Joseph Smith as a prophet of the restoration who had a divinely inspired mission to restore the one true Church and priesthood, or they view him as a fraud.  Indeed, I find it hard to view him in any other light given his claims.  Either he was deceitfully lying, was delusional, or he was telling the truth.  In which case his claims should either be embraced or opposed.  It is rare to meet someone who views Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in a more nuanced light.  I welcome your perspective and find it refreshing actually, even if I don't fully understand it. 

[Navidad]

8 minutes ago, Attalus said:

Perhaps someday our Church wards will use a guest book for people to sign when they attend meetings that are open to the public, specifically for people who are not members of the Church.  The information could be useful for missionaries to contact visitors and guests to see if they are interested in receiving more information about the Church, or maybe even interested in becoming a member of it.  I hope the best for you and your endeavors as a non-member.  Maybe someday you'll understand why some members of our Church place such a high value on being members of what we know as the only true and living church upon the face of the whole Earth with which our Lord is well pleased. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/dc-testament/dc/1?lang=eng

I will do so. I would ask you as well to consider the possibility that there are many true and living branches of the tree of Christianity with which our Lord is well pleased. That is my belief and I place a high value on it. Then we will both understand each other much better. . . I think that would be a good thing. While I am thinking about it, what would a faithful Saint do if he found himself living hundreds of miles away from an LDS ward? Would he not seek to fellowship and worship with a local group of Christians who he finds to be as equally as committed to Christ as he is? Wouldn't he prefer to do that without pressure to officially join that church, considering that he desires to maintain his membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? Wouldn't the Saint in such a situation hunger and thirst after fellowship and worship with other believers? That is a genuine question by the way because it is exactly the situation in which we find ourselves. 

[Navidad]

25 minutes ago, pogi said:

Thanks for the response Navidad!

I think part of the reason that people like you are so unique and unexpected is because people generally view Joseph Smith as a prophet of the restoration who had a divinely inspired mission to restore the one true Church and priesthood, or they view him as a fraud.  Indeed, I find it hard to view him in any other light given his claims.  Either he was deceitfully lying, was delusional, or he was telling the truth.  In which case his claims should either be embraced or opposed.  It is rare to meet someone who views Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon in a more nuanced light.  I welcome your perspective and find it refreshing actually, even if I don't fully understand it. 

Hi Pogi: Perhaps I can help you understand me and my perspective by sharing this with you - My father was viewed by many as a great prophet - a superb preacher of the gospel, teacher of the Scriptures, and exhorter. (is that a word?). He preached and taught all over the world. I grew up hearing how blessed I was to live in such a home with such a man. The reality was that when the front door of the house closed, he was a different man altogether. He was angry, abusive, and generally unhappy. My sisters, mom, and I were happiest when he was away preaching somewhere. So, I grew up with inconsistency. I grew up with a great prophet of a father who was deeply flawed. It took me years to understand and accept his two faces - one to the world and another to his family. Was he a bad man? I don't know. Was he insincere in his preaching. I don't think so. Was he more kind to those outside his home than those inside? Absolutely.

So, I have come to be tolerant of imperfections in people. I certainly have my own. Joseph Smith was imperfect as was my father. Because of my dad, I came to know many well-known preachers and prophets of the non-LDS Christian world. I also closely observe leaders in the LDS world. They are all (LDS and non-LDS) imperfect, as am I. So, I don't need and really, don't like to categorize folks as all this or all that. Someone posted here the other day about the "middle grounders." I am a middle grounder. My childhood taught me to be that. Having said that, I don't believe I am a Laodicean. I am not lukewarm. I have strongly held beliefs. I just have lots of tolerance for human failings. I have also spent thousands of hours doing therapy with mostly Christians. I have seen many struggles over those hours. Maybe that is why I am not so dogmatic and actually resist dogmatism.  I am in fact writing a new book on the subject of dogmatics. Maybe all of this will help you to understand me and my perspective a bit better. 

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Hi Pogi: Perhaps I can help you understand me and my perspective by sharing this with you - My father was viewed by many as a great prophet - a superb preacher of the gospel, teacher of the Scriptures, and exhorter. (is that a word?). He preached and taught all over the world. I grew up hearing how blessed I was to live in such a home with such a man. The reality was that when the front door of the house closed, he was a different man altogether. He was angry, abusive, and generally unhappy. My sisters, mom, and I were happiest when he was away preaching somewhere. So, I grew up with inconsistency. I grew up with a great prophet of a father who was deeply flawed. It took me years to understand and accept his two faces - one to the world and another to his family. Was he a bad man? I don't know. Was he insincere in his preaching. I don't think so. Was he more kind to those outside his home than those inside? Absolutely.

So, I have come to be tolerant of imperfections in people. I certainly have my own. Joseph Smith was imperfect as was my father. Because of my dad, I came to know many well-known preachers and prophets of the non-LDS Christian world. I also closely observe leaders in the LDS world. They are all (LDS and non-LDS) imperfect, as am I. So, I don't need and really, don't like to categorize folks as all this or all that. Someone posted here the other day about the "middle grounders." I am a middle grounder. My childhood taught me to be that. Having said that, I don't believe I am a Laodicean. I am not lukewarm. I have strongly held beliefs. I just have lots of tolerance for human failings. I have also spent thousands of hours doing therapy with mostly Christians. I have seen many struggles over those hours. Maybe that is why I am not so dogmatic and actually resist dogmatism.  I am in fact writing a new book on the subject of dogmatics. Maybe all of this will help you to understand me and my perspective a bit better. 

Thanks for sharing, that does help.  We need more people in the world like you.  

[Islander]

Baptism and every other ritual and liturgy are symbolic acts. They are acts of faith and confession and by themselves can NOT save anyone. How many have walked away and "fallen into forbidden paths"  after tasting of the fruit of the tree of life? Are they saved, will they be exalted? The answer is obviously no. True salvation in the kingdom of God is always God's choice. But, if it is true that you have been born again, of the water and of the Spirit, the work that the Lord began in you will NOT fail and it will bear fruit. The ordinance and the ceremony will NOT save anyone not will provide any means of exaltation. We must become what God intends from the inside before the gates of the kingdom begin to open for us. The love of Christ, in action, touching everything and everyone that comes in contact with us the true and ONLY hallmark of a true disciple and child of the kingdom:

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be ^ameek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his ^afaith and hope is vain, for none is ^bacceptable before God, save the ^cmeek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and ^dconfesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not [the pure love of Christ] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And [the pure love of Christ] suffereth long, and is ^bkind, and ^cenvieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily ^dprovoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not [the pure love of Christ], ye are nothing, for [the pure love of Christ] never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto [the pure love of Christ], which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But ( ) the pure ^blove of Christ, ( ) endureth ^cforever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, ^apray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true ^bfollowers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall ^cbe like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be ^dpurified even as he is pure. Amen. 

Those are the ones that will be saved and exalted in the kingdom of God.

[Ahab]

11 hours ago, Islander said:

Baptism and every other ritual and liturgy are symbolic acts. They are acts of faith and confession and by themselves can NOT save anyone. How many have walked away and "fallen into forbidden paths"  after tasting of the fruit of the tree of life? Are they saved, will they be exalted? The answer is obviously no. True salvation in the kingdom of God is always God's choice. But, if it is true that you have been born again, of the water and of the Spirit, the work that the Lord began in you will NOT fail and it will bear fruit. The ordinance and the ceremony will NOT save anyone not will provide any means of exaltation. We must become what God intends from the inside before the gates of the kingdom begin to open for us. The love of Christ, in action, touching everything and everyone that comes in contact with us the true and ONLY hallmark of a true disciple and child of the kingdom:

43 And again, behold I say unto you that he cannot have faith and hope, save he shall be ^ameek, and lowly of heart.

44 If so, his ^afaith and hope is vain, for none is ^bacceptable before God, save the ^cmeek and lowly in heart; and if a man be meek and lowly in heart, and ^dconfesses by the power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus is the Christ, he must needs have charity; for if he have not [the pure love of Christ] he is nothing; wherefore he must needs have charity.

45 And [the pure love of Christ] suffereth long, and is ^bkind, and ^cenvieth not, and is not puffed up, seeketh not her own, is not easily ^dprovoked, thinketh no evil, and rejoiceth not in iniquity but rejoiceth in the truth, beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.

46 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, if ye have not [the pure love of Christ], ye are nothing, for [the pure love of Christ] never faileth. Wherefore, cleave unto [the pure love of Christ], which is the greatest of all, for all things must fail—

47 But ( ) the pure ^blove of Christ, ( ) endureth ^cforever; and whoso is found possessed of it at the last day, it shall be well with him.

48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, ^apray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true ^bfollowers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall ^cbe like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be ^dpurified even as he is pure. Amen. 

Those are the ones that will be saved and exalted in the kingdom of God.

Those who are meek and follow the Lord are those who do what he says to do, and since has has told us that we need to be baptized and who is authorized to baptize us, we just need to do what he says and get baptized by those he has authorized to baptize us.

Those who try to make a case that we don't need to do something that he has told us to do or that it doesn't matter who does it when he has told us only certain people are authorized to do it are those we should ignore, in favor of doing what our Lord has told us to do.

[Islander]

53 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Those who are meek and follow the Lord are those who do what he says to do, and since has has told us that we need to be baptized and who is authorized to baptize us, we just need to do what he says and get baptized by those he has authorized to baptize us.

Those who try to make a case that we don't need to do something that he has told us to do or that it doesn't matter who does it when he has told us only certain people are authorized to do it are those we should ignore, in favor of doing what our Lord has told us to do.

You misunderstand me brother. The original poster was worried about the ordinances of salvation. I believe that it is a misplaced preoccupation. Ordinances did not save Israel. In fact, through out history, most of the children of Abraham had gone to outer darkness for disobedience and lack of faith; inspite of the rituals. What I'm saying is that the ordinance (alone) without true faith and such being clear and fruit bearing, will not bring you to salvation. But, if you have true faith and desire to be obedient to the Father you will, of course, receive the ordinance. We must be doers of the word and not hearers only. But I stand by the doctrine. Moroni 7:47 is clear. The pure love of Christ in our hearts is the ultimate proof that we are the true followers of Christ and thus heirs of salvation and exaltation. The rest, my brother, is window dressing.

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.” Mor. 7:47

[Ahab]

11 minutes ago, Islander said:

You misunderstand me brother. The original poster was worried about the ordinances of salvation. I believe that it is a misplaced preoccupation. Ordinances did not save Israel. In fact, through out history, most of the children of Abraham had gone to outer darkness for disobedience and lack of faith; inspite of the rituals. What I'm saying is that the ordinance (alone) without true faith and such being clear and fruit bearing, will not bring you to salvation. But, if you have true faith and desire to be obedient to the Father you will, of course, receive the ordinance. We must be doers of the word and not hearers only. But I stand by the doctrine. Moroni 7:47 is clear. The pure love of Christ in our hearts is the ultimate proof that we are the true followers of Christ and thus heirs of salvation and exaltation. The rest, my brother, is window dressing.

“Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.” Mor. 7:47

I agree that what is in our heart is important, and that loving God can help us to know what is good and true and what he wants us to believe and do, but obedience to God is also very important.  Not only knowing what to do but actually doing what he wants us to do.

[mfbukowski]

On 1/30/2020 at 11:27 AM, Ahab said:

I agree that what is in our heart is important, and that loving God can help us to know what is good and true and what he wants us to believe and do, but obedience to God is also very important.  Not only knowing what to do but actually doing what he wants us to do.

If nothing else it is a mark of humility. Jesus was baptized. Need one say more?