I fear that many misunderstand the Prophet, concerning “refugees”.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Congratulations on reinventing an even more oppressive company store model and amplifying all the abuses rampant in such a system by completely removing currency and making employees more like serfs of their employers.

Which is exactly what would happen under such a system.  I am also reminded of the Soviet (and probably PRC) Gulag system. 

[Anonymous Mormon]

16 minutes ago, Ahab said:

The only good reason I can see to limit the number of people we should want to come here would be because we couldn't think of some way we could use all of that potential labor to get something good done.

I think we just need to think some more about what good things all of those people could do.

The reason I think we need to limit the number of people is because of cost. Our government is out of control on spending. We already provide lots of social programs to our current population that costs lots of money (health care, food stamps, earned income credits on tax returns, etc.). As long as we are spending so much, we can't have an open border. It's the reason that the Nordic countries that have huge social states and are held up as shining beacons of "socialism," don't allow many refugees to come enter. They know they can't afford it.

In software you have a 3 legged stool of time, money and quality and you can't have all 3. In government, it's more like a 3 legged stool of Spending, Debt, and Immigration. But unfortunately some people do want all 3 and don't see the long term catastrophe.

That said, I do believe we need to help those in need and lift those who are refugees out of their situation. I commend you for trying to do this, even though I don't agree with your solution. I don't know the right answer to help the poor and needy of this earth, but I am glad that the Prophet & leaders are speaking out about it. 

Maybe we all need to be called on to sacrifice more. If the prophet called on everyone who had sufficient for their means to give 50% of their excess to the poor/needy, I wonder how many of us would heed the call?

Edited December 6, 2019 by Anonymous Mormon
typo

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

It's not as difficult to solve the world's problems as you seem to think it is.

Run for office then Ahab.  Show us all how easy it is.  To make such a statement and not run for office would be a terrible disservice to humanity.  You are morally obligated to do so now. 

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

This contrast between the immigrants of the past being eager to assimilate and current immigrants being unwilling is largely a myth. In the 18th and 19th centuries groups of immigrants from specific nations often settled together. New York City had all kinds of ethnic enclaves filled with many languages. There were powerful organizations urging them to bloc vote too. There were whole communities in everywhere from Texas to Maine made up of groups from one nation or another. There was paranoia and xenophobia that these groups were not integrating and were seizing political power (the Federalist Party lost power to a large extent for their xenophobia and never got it back). Certain accents or appearance could cut you off from jobs so they banded together for mutual support and virtually all of them eventually integrated. I see no reason to believe the current crop of immigrants will be any different. They will band together for mutual support with those like them and their children and their children’s children will integrate.

That is an excellent summary of how things went for those immigrants.

The thing I worry about here in the UK is that the Muslim (here we go again) immigrants are doing much as you describe: living in enclaves, voting in blocs, and banding together for mutual support. And so on.  There are many who are integrating, too.  But there are worryingly many who don't seem to be.  I hope that the path that immigrants took in the US is repeated here among those from the Islamic world of the Middle East.  

 

[Ahab]

24 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

The reason I think we need to limit the number of people is because of cost. Our government is out of control on spending. We already provide lots of social programs to our current population that costs lots of money (health care, food stamps, earned income credits on tax returns, etc.). As long as we are spending so much, we can't have an open border. It's the reason that the Nordic countries that have huge social states and are held up as shining beacons of "socialism," don't allow many refugees to come enter. They know they can't afford it.

In software you have a 3 legged stool of time, money and quality and you can't have all 3. In government, it's more like a 3 legged stool of Spending, Debt, and Immigration. But unfortunately some people do want all 3 and don't see the long term catastrophe.

That said, I do believe we need to help those in need and lift those who are refugees out of their situation. I commend you for trying to do this, even though I don't agree with your solution. I don't know the right answer to help the poor and needy of this earth, but I am glad that the Prophet & leaders are speaking out about it. 

Maybe we all need to be called on to sacrifice more. If the prophet called on everyone who had sufficient for their means to give 50% of their excess to the poor/needy, I wonder how many of us would heed the call?

The problem with most solutions is the lack of money, or a limited supply of money.  My idea gets around that problem by avoiding money altogether, but only for those who choose that solution.

I think we can agree that the only people who would go for my idea would be the people who have basically nothing.  No food or clothing or shelter, except for what they can scrounge up somehow or what is given to them.

I"m proposing we give them food, clothing AND shelter and whatever tools they need to get some work done that we need or want to get done in this country.  Without this program they would have nothing or next to nothing.  I'm imagining a food service much like the cafeterias I enjoyed in the military. where they would be able to choose different options and eat as much of that as they wanted.  And the people who made the food could come from that program, for those who chose that job of preparing the food.  Some people like to do that, usually women, but men could do that too if they wanted.  All n a big tent that can be moved from place to place, with lots of food preparation equipment and tables to eat at.  Building or maintaining roads, or building houses or other kinds of buildings, transporting supplies and materials, or growing or harvesting crops, etc.

And, hey, maybe we would be able to afford to pay them a little bit every month.  When I was in the Air Force I didn't make much money but it went pretty far since I didn't have to pay for food, clothing, shelter or the tools I needed to do my work.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Ahab

[Ahab]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Run for office then Ahab.  Show us all how easy it is.  To make such a statement and not run for office would be a terrible disservice to humanity.  You are morally obligated to do so now. 

Heh, heh, yeah right.  Not even you guys would vote for me.  Slim to no chance, I'd say.   Not that I couldn't do it.  Just not very many people would vote for me to give me the chance.

[Bob Crockett]

10 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

 

The thing I worry about here in the UK is that the Muslim (here we go again) immigrants are doing much as you describe: living in enclaves, voting in blocs, and banding together for mutual support. 

 

Ironically the very charges that led to the death of Joseph Smith.   
 

Later, during the trial of John D Lee, federal authorities distrusted the Saints because they were a bunch of immigrants. 

[Stargazer]

Just now, Bob Crockett said:

Ironically the very charges that led to the death of Joseph Smith.  

Of course. 

Just now, Bob Crockett said:

Later, during the trial of John D Lee, federal authorities distrusted the Saints because they were a bunch of immigrants. 

I get the impression that you may think I'm prejudiced against immigrants.  I'm not.  As an immigrant myself, that would be very hypocritical.

[Stargazer]

18 minutes ago, pogi said:

Run for office then Ahab.  Show us all how easy it is.  To make such a statement and not run for office would be a terrible disservice to humanity.  You are morally obligated to do so now. 

Running for office is easy.  Winning an election is hard.  I've done the former, but not the latter!

[pogi]

6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Not that I couldn't do it.

If you can't get people to vote for you or influence change then no, you couldn't do it.  The hardest part about solving the worlds problems is not in saying how it should be...it is in making it so - ask any politician.  You can't do anything without people behind you.

[pogi]

8 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

Running for office is easy.  Winning an election is hard.  I've done the former, but not the latter!

Yep, that's my point. 

[Ahab]

4 minutes ago, pogi said:

If you can't get people to vote for you or influence change then no, you couldn't do it.  The hardest part about solving the worlds problems is not in saying how it should be...it is in making it so - ask any politician.  You can't do anything without people behind you.

I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.”

Edward Everett Hale AMERICAN AUTHOR

[pogi]

5 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I am only one, but still I am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will not refuse to do something that I can do.”

Edward Everett Hale AMERICAN AUTHOR

Great quote.  But you can't solve the world's problems by yourself, no matter how big and bold you make these words.

Edited December 6, 2019 by pogi

[Stargazer]

9 minutes ago, pogi said:

Yep, that's my point. 

In my case, I was running for an open seat on our city council. My opponent was a retired USAF officer, and we got along fairly well.  By election night I was pretty sure he would do a better job than I would if I got elected, so I happy to lose to him 55/45%.  And he did end up doing a good job, I thought.

[Stargazer]

6 minutes ago, pogi said:

Great quote.  But you can't solve the world's problems by yourself, no matter how big and bold you make these words.

I don't know if that's what you're thinking, but I don't think he thinks he can solve them himself alone. I think he's saying "Do what you can"

[Tacenda]

I don't believe in open borders but we do need to make immigration work somehow. And those that are responding to Ahab, that he needs to run for office, how come so many presidents haven't been able to fix the problem? How do you expect Ahab to? But it may just take someone like Ahab to get the ball rolling. 

[Ahab]

21 minutes ago, pogi said:

Great quote.  But you can't solve the world's problems by yourself, no matter how big and bold you make these words.

Heh, heh, yeah, I know.  I am not underestimating the effect that support from other people can have.

[Storm Rider]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

And we say “just tough” to those suffering in those countries while the world learns to do it better?  Or do you have another solution?

I have never heard that life should be fair or even that it was expected to be fair. Do you think that the world owes each individual an improved standard of living? Or do you think that each individual has the right to create their own standard of living? What does the world owe them? What does their own nation owe them? Why are their leaders in power? Is revolution in a nation an acceptable path to improve the nation's standard of living?

[Storm Rider]

22 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I spent a large part of my master's program studying the history of nations. I think you might be surprised how inaccurate the 'obvious' is. The nation-state is basically a 19th-century development, following events at the end of the 18th century. This point is non-controversial. And whilst European (and some Asian) nations have repeatedly tried to appear both unified and distinct in language, ethnicity and culture, this has literally never been the reality. If you're genuinely interested, when I get home tonight, I can provide a suggested reading list.

The city state, the polis, had its beginnings in ancient Greece. This was the seed for the nation state that did not come fully to fruition until the Westfalian system. The idea of the nation state remains an issue of debate. I might offer a reading list also - it will begin with a study of ancient Greece and a host of authors on the topic. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Storm Rider

[Stargazer]

14 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe in open borders but we do need to make immigration work somehow. And those that are responding to Ahab, that he needs to run for office, how come so many presidents haven't been able to fix the problem? How do you expect Ahab to? But it may just take someone like Ahab to get the ball rolling. 

The fact that so many people want to come here should be seen as a positive. People don't usually clamor to come to places that are basket cases.  Like Nicaragua.

Actually, immigration does work. If someone wants to come here as an immigrant (as opposed to as a tourist), they can apply for the privilege.  But it's been correctly remarked in this thread that getting into the USA as a legal resident is not easy at all.  Most if not all of the illegal border crossers couldn't possibly qualify -- because it costs a lot of money and time and requires evidence of being immediately employed and self-supporting.  Again, like in the UK, a valid marriage to a US citizen is a shortcut.  All those people crossing the border illegally have little chance of getting entry permission if they apply.  What is the part of that that needs fixing?  Let them all in?  Abandon all standards of ensuring that they aren't going to be problems once they get here?  Make sure that the children they're bringing actually are their children (frequently they are not)?  It's a lot more complicated than some people think.

Being an immigrant to the UK, I know that gaining resident status here is not the easiest thing.  It's almost as hard as getting into the US via a legal route.  I got special consideration because I'm married to a British citizen.  So it only took them 8 months to decide I could come over -- in fairness, most of that time was my application waiting to be looked at.  I still had to pay a largish fee, and get a criminal background check complete with fingerprints. Because they didn't want to import a potential troublemaker.  I also had to prove that I had a certain minimum income, so I wouldn't be trying to go on welfare.

When my wife came over to the US and we got married, it was very easy for her.  For UK citizens and a number of other countries, they can apply for a special type of non-visa entry permit that is good for 6 months at a time. It doesn't cost a lot, and doesn't take that much time to get.  Tourists usually come over using that route.  The folks in Central America can't use that route, apparently because of the high likelihood that they will overstay their entry-permit and become unlawfully present.  

 

[Calm]

14 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Or do you think that each individual has the right to create their own standard of living?

One way being doing all that they can to get to a place where they can raise it.

I don't see much obligation to abide by law if the law is condemning you and your family to a living hell not because you did anything wrong, but based on where you were born.

 

[Anonymous Mormon]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe in open borders but we do need to make immigration work somehow. And those that are responding to Ahab, that he needs to run for office, how come so many presidents haven't been able to fix the problem? How do you expect Ahab to? But it may just take someone like Ahab to get the ball rolling. 

@Ahab - It looks like you have your new campaign manager

I can only imagine the fun you two will have working together all day every day

Edited December 6, 2019 by Anonymous Mormon

[Ahab]

8 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

@Ahab - It looks like you have your new campaign manager

I can only imagine the fun you two will have working together all day every day

 You are funny, aren't you.

[pogi]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think he's saying "Do what you can"

What he originally said was, "it's not as difficult to solve the world's problems as you seem to think it is".  "Do what you can" is not going to solve the world's problems if you don't have people behind you.  So, I am really curious as to why he thinks it is easy.  If it is so easy, than I am suggesting he has a moral obligation to prove it. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by pogi

[Rain]

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

We would not be required to spend or give them any money, but we could with the spirit of charity to guide us.  And charity doesn't mean giving people whatever they want.  It means doing what is in someone's best interest.

So imagine them coming, all who wanted to come.  Imagine they are here now.  They're now at our airports and bus terminals and wherever they got to when they got here. And they're asking us: "Well, can you help us?  Can you help us to know what to do next?" 

Keep in mind that unless they are at bus terminal that ICE dropped them off at (not likely to be an airport where ICE drops them) then they will only have a few minutes or hours to get some food etc.  before they need to take the next train or airplane. 

If they are at the bus stations in Tuscon, Phoenix, El Paso or San Diego etc and have just been dropped off by ICE then they may have more time (unless they actually got reservations before being dropped off, though last winter and spring that would have been highly unlikely).  But even if they have no tickets yet, a lot of them have young children so any work done will need to be able to be done with the children alongside of them.  And so many are just exhausted. Last year there were so many coming at a time  to these cities near the border that it would have been extremely difficult to line up work on top of taking care of their needs.  

So your idea could be a good one, but until they arrive at their final destination after the bus or airplane, it may prove impractical.

 

6 hours ago, Ahab said:

I don't know if I would see very many of them but if they asked me I would tell them they should organize themselves into workgroups and offer their services in exchange for food, clothing and shelter.  Ask if anyone needs any roads or bridges built, or houses built, or help with raising or growing crops for food and energy.  Ask contractors and government officials and anyone they think might want to get something done.  I would tell them they don't need any money, necessarily.  They just need the basics of life, to start out with, and they can offer their services in exchange for those things.  If contractors and government officials don't have the expense of having to give them money for their services, and instead just give them food and clothing and shelter and the tools they need to get their work done, they would likely start throwing up tents or maybe manufactured homes or trailers and get some of those people to prepare the foods they give them for meals.  And the materials to make clothing too.  All kinds of things, whatever they needed and were able to make or produce.

I think we'd get this country in shape in hardly no time at all with millions of people doing all kinds of work.  And then maybe later they could figure out how to make some money if they wanted or needed any of it to do something else.