I fear that many misunderstand the Prophet, concerning “refugees”.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

This thread is not anti-immigration, so please do not misunderstand me. The Prophet, or First Presidency issued a statement concerning “immigrates”, and “refugees”, calling upon “The Saints”, to aide in anyway we can for those who are displaced by many conditions, “legally”. We are a Nation of immigrants, and more importantly a Church of immigrants, as it relates to this thread. As such we have a commission to go into every Nation, to “gather Zion”, those who “choose Zion”, or those “who are Zion”. 
 

A tragedy is happening in our Nation where we have Governors who are encouraging “illegalities”, as it relates to immigration. In the State of California, where disease is running rampant in the streets, some diseases that were once eradicated in America. Created by homelessness, due to living conditions, and unchecked immigration in Nations where vaccinations are almost non-existent. The horrific conditions that exists in so many States, of my fellow Veterans is appalling, and criminal. Other Governors are solving their homeless problems, by busing the problem to other States. New York, has been doing this all the way up and down the Eastern Seaboard for decades. When working Law-Enforcement for the City of Atlanta, this was a common practice. As a Police Officer, I witnessed up close and personal the human tragedy far too often. 
 

Supporting illegal immigration, may make some feel better about themselves, or about America, but it is a very short cited view. For those who do support it, and the Church does not, nor does the “law-abiding”, it is usually because they do not have to see up close and personal the real cost. By cost, I mean in every way, be it logistical, financially, or criminally. For those who believe we as a Church or Nation should turn no one away, they can already aide anyone whom they wish. They can provide housing, education, food, to anyone they wish. They do not need permission from the Church, or Government, to open their homes, give their financial support, educate, or provide health care. But this is not what our Church is suggesting, this because the Church already does so much of this, around the world, after they care for their own, and in some cases before they care for their own. This because often, members are too proud or humble to ask in their own behalf. Jesus Christ indeed fed the multitudes, but he also cared for his disciples, and for his own needs. In order to aide the world, we must care for our own, otherwise as Jesus Christ taught, “we are worse than an infidel”. 
 

Respectful thoughts?  

[pogi]

12 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

This thread is not anti-immigration, so please do not misunderstand me. The Prophet, or First Presidency issued a statement concerning “immigrates”, and “refugees”, calling upon “The Saints”, to aide in anyway we can for those who are displaced by many conditions, “legally”. We are a Nation of immigrants, and more importantly a Church of immigrants, as it relates to this thread. As such we have a commission to go into every Nation, to “gather Zion”, those who “choose Zion”, or those “who are Zion”. 
 

A tragedy is happening in our Nation where we have Governors who are encouraging “illegalities”, as it relates to immigration. In the State of California, where disease is running rampant in the streets, some diseases that were once eradicated in America. Created by homelessness, due to living conditions, and unchecked immigration in Nations where vaccinations are almost non-existent. The horrific conditions that exists in so many States, of my fellow Veterans is appalling, and criminal. Other Governors are solving their homeless problems, by busing the problem to other States. New York, has been doing this all the way up and down the Eastern Seaboard for decades. When working Law-Enforcement for the City of Atlanta, this was a common practice. As a Police Officer, I witnessed up close and personal the human tragedy far too often. 
 

Supporting illegal immigration, may make some feel better about themselves, or about America, but it is a very short cited view. For those who do support it, and the Church does not, nor does the “law-abiding”, it is usually because they do not have to see up close and personal the real cost. By cost, I mean in every way, be it logistical, financially, or criminally. For those who believe we as a Church or Nation should turn no one away, they can already aide anyone whom they wish. They can provide housing, education, food, to anyone they wish. They do not need permission from the Church, or Government, to open their homes, give their financial support, educate, or provide health care. But this is not what our Church is suggesting, this because the Church already does so much of this, around the world, after they care for their own, and in some cases before they care for their own. This because often, members are too proud or humble to ask in their own behalf. Jesus Christ indeed fed the multitudes, but he also cared for his disciples, and for his own needs. In order to aide the world, we must care for our own, otherwise as Jesus Christ taught, “we are worse than an infidel”. 
 

Respectful thoughts?  

So, your concern is just with "illegal" immigration and not with legal refugees, right?  Would you support a call for more legal refugees in your state like our governor has done here in Utah?

[Danzo]

We are all sinners and we  have all broken gods laws at one time or another.  There are very few of us who have not broken man's laws a time or two.  Man's laws, in fact have become so numerous that there are few of us who can say they know all of man's laws.  If they don't know all of man's laws, how can they say they haven't broken those laws.  

Some of man's laws are wrong.  When it comes to Immigration laws, as they exist in the united states, those laws are evil.

I have had the unfortunate experience of advising someone that getting married would cause them to break the law of the land, but would be necessary for them to be baptized,  This particular person was forced to choose between god's laws and man's laws.  

I fully supported this person in choosing to break the law of the land in order to get the blessings of living the gospel.

I hope for the day when God's laws and man's laws no longer conflict. 

 

[Ahab]

15 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

This thread is not anti-immigration, so please do not misunderstand me. The Prophet, or First Presidency issued a statement concerning “immigrates”, and “refugees”, calling upon “The Saints”, to aide in anyway we can for those who are displaced by many conditions, “legally”. We are a Nation of immigrants, and more importantly a Church of immigrants, as it relates to this thread. As such we have a commission to go into every Nation, to “gather Zion”, those who “choose Zion”, or those “who are Zion”. 
 

A tragedy is happening in our Nation where we have Governors who are encouraging “illegalities”, as it relates to immigration. In the State of California, where disease is running rampant in the streets, some diseases that were once eradicated in America. Created by homelessness, due to living conditions, and unchecked immigration in Nations where vaccinations are almost non-existent. The horrific conditions that exists in so many States, of my fellow Veterans is appalling, and criminal. Other Governors are solving their homeless problems, by busing the problem to other States. New York, has been doing this all the way up and down the Eastern Seaboard for decades. When working Law-Enforcement for the City of Atlanta, this was a common practice. As a Police Officer, I witnessed up close and personal the human tragedy far too often. 
 

Supporting illegal immigration, may make some feel better about themselves, or about America, but it is a very short cited view. For those who do support it, and the Church does not, nor does the “law-abiding”, it is usually because they do not have to see up close and personal the real cost. By cost, I mean in every way, be it logistical, financially, or criminally. For those who believe we as a Church or Nation should turn no one away, they can already aide anyone whom they wish. They can provide housing, education, food, to anyone they wish. They do not need permission from the Church, or Government, to open their homes, give their financial support, educate, or provide health care. But this is not what our Church is suggesting, this because the Church already does so much of this, around the world, after they care for their own, and in some cases before they care for their own. This because often, members are too proud or humble to ask in their own behalf. Jesus Christ indeed fed the multitudes, but he also cared for his disciples, and for his own needs. In order to aide the world, we must care for our own, otherwise as Jesus Christ taught, “we are worse than an infidel”. 
 

Respectful thoughts?  

Among the many evil laws that exist in the world I think the laws making it illegal for people to move to a country... any country, ours or any other country on this planet... ranks pretty high up there on that list.  God didn't put borderlines on our planet and I think everyone should be considered free to move to any country they wish to live in.

I'm okay with the buying and selling of a modest-sized parcel of property as a means to control who gets some land to call their own, but we shouldn't be stopping people at the borders of countries to say they can't move here if they want to.

So many stupid laws on this planet makes it too easy for people to disrespect the concept of law and order when those stupid laws shouldn't exist in the first place.  Better to just have good laws that are there for a good reason.  We have plenty of land in our country for everyone.

[provoman]

7 minutes ago, Danzo said:

 When it comes to Immigration laws, as they exist in the united states, those laws are evil.

For example?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

19 minutes ago, pogi said:

So, your concern is just with "illegal" immigration and not with legal refugees, right?  Would you support a call for more legal refugees in your state like our governor has done here in Utah?

No, I was speaking of “Governors as a body of all 50”, which why I did not use the link for the article used in other threads. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

10 minutes ago, Danzo said:

We are all sinners and we  have all broken gods laws at one time or another.  There are very few of us who have not broken man's laws a time or two.  Man's laws, in fact have become so numerous that there are few of us who can say they know all of man's laws.  If they don't know all of man's laws, how can they say they haven't broken those laws.  

Some of man's laws are wrong.  When it comes to Immigration laws, as they exist in the united states, those laws are evil.

I have had the unfortunate experience of advising someone that getting married would cause them to break the law of the land, but would be necessary for them to be baptized,  This particular person was forced to choose between god's laws and man's laws.  

I fully supported this person in choosing to break the law of the land in order to get the blessings of living the gospel.

I hope for the day when God's laws and man's laws no longer conflict. 

 

Well as retired police, could you give me a list? 

[pogi]

7 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

No, I was speaking of “Governors as a body of all 50”, which why I did not use the link for the article used in other threads. 

No, you would not support an increase legal immigration and refugees?  

Edited December 4, 2019 by pogi

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Well as retired police, could you give me a list? 

https://www.legalzoom.com/articles/top-craziest-laws-still-on-the-books

https://www.gafollowers.com/20-strange-laws-implemented-georgia/

Edited December 4, 2019 by Calm

[Danzo]

Just now, provoman said:

For example?

I gave an example of someone wishing to be baptized.

That person could not be baptized because that person was living with someone (and had children with) someone whom they weren't married to.

The person wishing to be baptized had an immigration application pending.  

The immigration application was for a single child of a US resident.

There is no application for a married child of a US resident, only a single child.

Getting married destroyed the pending application, making her presence unlawful.

Hence the immigration law was preventing her from getting baptized.

I think she made the correct choice (against the advise of her attorney) to get married and get baptized. Our ward a bishop also agreed with her decision to break the law. We threw her a wedding. 

 

 

[Duncan]

Just to clarify the Church's statement didn't say anything about immigration, just about refugees and to "respond appropriately and legally"

[Danzo]

12 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Well as retired police, could you give me a list? 

A list of all of the laws?

you can start here for the federal laws

After you have read all of those, you can go here for all the regulations.

Once you are done with those you can go here and start reading the supreme court decisions.

Once you have familiarized yourself with all of the federal laws you should then go here to look up the laws in your state. 

You should then get a list of all of the ordinances passed by your city and county, just to complete your education. 

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Danzo

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

4 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Among the many evil laws that exist in the world I think the laws making it illegal for people to move to a country... any country, ours or any other country on this planet... ranks pretty high up there on that list.  God didn't put borderlines on our planet and I think everyone should be considered free to move to any country they wish to live in.

I'm okay with the buying and selling of a modest-sized parcel of property as a means to control who gets some land to call their own, but we shouldn't be stopping people at the borders of countries to say they can't move here if they want to.

So many stupid laws on this planet makes it too easy for people to disrespect the concept of law and order when those stupid laws shouldn't exist in the first place.  Better to just have good laws that are there for a good reason.  We have plenty of land in our country for everyone.

Governments are called for and sanctioned by God, and we are even called on to pray for “our leaders to live peaceable lives”. Any Nation must have both boundaries, to have both, “laws and peace”. Both scriptural history, and world history, make it clear that the world would be in a constant state of war everywhere, where the “strong will constantly prey on the weak”. Now maybe it is my professions in the “military and law-enforcement”, for 31 years speaking here, or just being a student of history. As for your comment that, “we have plenty of land in our country for everyone”, are you counting every acre in the deserts, mountain slops, volcanos etc? Also, how would this Nation continue to be the breadbasket of the world? It was the same God you speak of, who separated peoples among the earth, for a number of reasons. Chief among them being the danger of one government and one people, it was called the “Tower of Babel”. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

12 minutes ago, pogi said:

No, you would not support an increase legal immigration and refugees?  

I did not suggest that, and was that your original question? Or is this a new question?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

7 minutes ago, Danzo said:

A list of all of the laws?

you can start here for the federal laws

After you have read all of those, you can go here for all the regulations.

Once you are done with those you can go here and start reading the supreme court decisions.

Once you have familiarized yourself with all of the federal laws you should then go here to look up the laws in your state. 

You should then get a list of all of the ordinances passed by your city and county, just to complete your education. 

 

I asked you for “your list”, please.

[Duncan]

2 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Governments are called for and sanctioned by God, and we are even called on to pray for “our leaders to live peaceable lives”. Any Nation must have both boundaries, to have both, “laws and peace”. Both scriptural history, and world history, make it clear that the world would be in a constant state of war everywhere, where the “strong will constantly prey on the weak”. Now maybe it is my professions in the “military and law-enforcement”, for 31 years speaking here, or just being a student of history. As for your comment that, “we have plenty of land in our country for everyone”, are you counting every acre in the deserts, mountain slops, volcanos etc? Also, how would this Nation continue to be the breadbasket of the world? It was the same God you speak of, who separated peoples among the earth, for a number of reasons. Chief among them being the danger of one government and one people, it was called the “Tower of Babel”. 

would you say Americans aren't welcome to move elsewhere in the world? why can't people live where they want to live? Ukraine was or is called the Breadbasket of Europe, Saskatchewan is called Canada's breadbasket

https://www.rcinet.ca/canada-questions-en/2013/04/04/which-province-is-known-as-canadas-breadbasket/#:~:targetText=Wheat,the largest in the world.

The US has breadbasket company!

[Danzo]

3 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I asked you for “your list”, please.

Can you be more specific on what list you want from me?

l you said 

22 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Well as retired police, could you give me a list? 

I assumed you were referring to 

34 minutes ago, Danzo said:

Man's laws, in fact have become so numerous that there are few of us who can say they know all of man's laws.  If they don't know all of man's laws, how can they say they haven't broken those laws.  

So I gave you a list of man's laws.  

Did you want a list of immigration laws? they can be found here

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

6 hours ago, Duncan said:

Just to clarify the Church's statement didn't say anything about immigration, just about refugees and to "respond appropriately and legally"

“Refugees”, fall under the umbrella of much of, “legal immigration”, and I believe I addressed the “legal” aspects of this, which covers any issues of “appropriately”. Wow, really I must quote every syllable? 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Bill “Papa” Lee

[phaedrus ut]

Utah was settled by Mormons illegally immigrating into Mexico while fleeing the US legal system in order to practice polygamy.  There is some historical precedent in the First Presidency's statement. 

Or maybe they understand as Christians there is a higher law do be decent and moral to our fellow human beings. 

Phaedrus 

[provoman]

25 minutes ago, Danzo said:

I gave an example of someone wishing to be baptized.

That person could not be baptized because that person was living with someone (and had children with) someone whom they weren't married to.

The person wishing to be baptized had an immigration application pending.  

The immigration application was for a single child of a US resident.

There is no application for a married child of a US resident, only a single child.

Getting married destroyed the pending application, making her presence unlawful.

Hence the immigration law was preventing her from getting baptized.

I think she made the correct choice (against the advise of her attorney) to get married and get baptized. Our ward a bishop also agreed with her decision to break the law. We threw her a wedding. 

 

 

The law was not preventing baptism

[pogi]

15 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I did not suggest that, and was that your original question? Or is this a new question?

Thank for clarifying.  That was my original question.  Third time is the charm - would you support an increase in legal refugees?

[Danzo]

13 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

Governments are called for and sanctioned by God, and we are even called on to pray for “our leaders to live peaceable lives”. Any Nation must have both boundaries, to have both, “laws and peace”. Both scriptural history, and world history, make it clear that the world would be in a constant state of war everywhere, where the “strong will constantly prey on the weak”. Now maybe it is my professions in the “military and law-enforcement”, for 31 years speaking here, or just being a student of history. As for your comment that, “we have plenty of land in our country for everyone”, are you counting every acre in the deserts, mountain slops, volcanos etc? Also, how would this Nation continue to be the breadbasket of the world? It was the same God you speak of, who separated peoples among the earth, for a number of reasons. Chief among them being the danger of one government and one people, it was called the “Tower of Babel”. 

You are aware that the US government didn't restrict immigration until 1882 when the US decided it wasn't fond of Chinese people.

Somehow, what is so obvious to you wasn't obvious to the founding fathers of our country or their children and grandchildren. (See chapter 7 ) 

[Hamba Tuhan]

We had our stake presidency meeting last night. The day before, I had met with a leader from our local migrant and refugee settlement service. They are teaching a class to new migrants/refugees in a hired shopfront just outside our city, but they need more space. They asked about our chapel that is near their current office. They are also interested in volunteers to teach additional classes: computer skills, job-finding skills, the national language, and tutoring for school students.

I explained that we don't hire out our chapels, so giving them access would require finding members who are able and willing to open the building, stay on premises for the duration of the class, and then lock up again. Classes are in the late morning, two days per week, so this won't be easy. Most of our members work full-time. I also told him that we'd be happy to encourage members to volunteer but couldn't guarantee they would respond for the same reason of limited availability.

But then the statement was released, and I read it. And then I read it out at stake presidency meeting, and we all agreed that we desperately want to be able to do what we've been asked. I really want us to be able to open our chapel to those 'who have fled their homes seeking relief from violence, war, or religious persecution' ... followed inevitably by opening our hearts and lives.

I also suspect the First Presidency meant exactly what they wrote in what I quoted above.

We determined last night to share this statement with congregations across our stake.

And for what it may be worth, my employer, a member of our local parliament, was once a non-documented migrant, and I myself worked illegally for a short time before obtaining work rights. I also violated the speed limit on my way home from stake presidency meeting late last night, but I knew that I had some spicy beans awaiting me in the slow cooker so ... 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Danzo]

4 minutes ago, provoman said:

The law was not preventing baptism

To be baptized the person had to break the law.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

29 minutes ago, Duncan said:

Just to clarify the Church's statement didn't say anything about immigration, just about refugees and to "respond appropriately and legally"

“Refugees”, fall under the umbrella of much of much of “legal immigration”, and I believe I addressed the “legal” aspects of this, which covers any issues of “appropriately”. Wow, must I quote every syllable?