I fear that many misunderstand the Prophet, concerning “refugees”.

[Tacenda]

Papa, I can understand some of your concerns. As much as I want help for the refugees, I worry at the same time. And on top of that, I have an illegal son-in-law that crossed over from Mexico with his dad, brother and sister right out of high school. He hasn't seen his mother for around 20 years now. Luckily they skype now but before that it was only a conversation by phone. So my heart goes out to those that feel they need to leave their countries. But the refugees are being run out of their countries, if they don't run, they'll get killed or their wives, sisters and daughters raped as well or ?. So definitely in their case we need to do something to help. 

Now on to the worries...a few years ago, there was a shooter who killed several at a mall called Trolley Square in SLC, UT.  It was a younger male from the war-torn country of Bosnia. He moved to Salt Lake as a 9 year old, and was pretty much a loner for the most part. I don't know if it had anything to do with his roots, but ever since then I wonder about refugees that have a hard time adjusting to having to leave their countries. And I may not even have any basis for those worries. 

And the diseases you mentioned, I wonder about that as well. But still want to help these individuals no matter what, and take those chances I guess. 

Here's from the article: https://www.ksl.com/article/43161303/looking-back-at-the-trolley-square-shooting-10-years-later

Talović was an 18-year-old born in Bosnia but had been living in the United States since he was 9 years old, fleeing a war-torn country. He was living and working in the Salt Lake Valley before the attack, and had attended high school in Salt Lake City before dropping out when he was 16. His family members told KSL back in 2007 that he was a hyperactive but nice child.

"What happened to Sulejman, we have no idea. He was nice boy,” Omerovic said days after the attack.

The FBI’s report noted that after moving from Bosnia when he was 9, Talovic lived near Trolley Square and played there as a child. The FBI said they believed the gunman acted alone, never told anyone why and left no reason as to why he would carry out the attack.

"This was an individual who had come to this country, obviously a strange country to him, and was somewhat of a loner and somewhat isolated from the rest of society," Tim Fuhrman, then-FBI Special Agent in Charge for the bureau's Salt Lake office, said, in 2009.

[Storm Rider]

I am personally against all migration for economic reasons. I appreciate separate nations with unique cultures, languages, and forms of government. When I visit France, I want to see French people and not cities that have been taken over by other cultures, languages, and peoples. 

I want borders that are respected, definite, clear and without exceptions to legal violations. If an individual has entered another country illegally, then that individual and their family members should be returned to the country of origin without exceptions. There is a reason they call it illegal.  Any heartache caused by such an action is not the responsibility of the host country, but of the illegal aliens themselves.

I believe in the value of citizenship. It has great value and should not be given away for free. 

I believe in nations having the ability and right to accept immigrants by choice. The process of gaining of worker permits should be streamlined and facilitated to ensure that employment opportunities, that are surplus to the local populations, are filled. 

I strongly support first world nations supporting third world nations in effective ways to create businesses, safe neighborhoods, and strong national cultures. 

 

[Duncan]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I am personally against all migration for economic reasons. I appreciate separate nations with unique cultures, languages, and forms of government. When I visit France, I want to see French people and not cities that have been taken over by other cultures, languages, and peoples. 

I want borders that are respected, definite, clear and without exceptions to legal violations. If an individual has entered another country illegally, then that individual and their family members should be returned to the country of origin without exceptions. There is a reason they call it illegal.  Any heartache caused by such an action is not the responsibility of the host country, but of the illegal aliens themselves.

I believe in the value of citizenship. It has great value and should not be given away for free. 

I believe in nations having the ability and right to accept immigrants by choice. The process of gaining of worker permits should be streamlined and facilitated to ensure that employment opportunities, that are surplus to the local populations, are filled. 

I strongly support first world nations supporting third world nations in effective ways to create businesses, safe neighborhoods, and strong national cultures. 

 

do you have a problem with In-N-Out Burger in Utah?!

[Storm Rider]

2 minutes ago, Duncan said:

do you have a problem with In-N-Out Burger in Utah?!

Don't live in Utah; don't care to live in Utah; and don't care what they want to eat.

On a side note, I am against national brands invading other countries. Nothing is more sad than to visit great cities of the world and see a McDonald's or Kentucky Fried Chicken. I wish there was a way to minimize this type of thing. 

[JLHPROF]

11 minutes ago, Duncan said:

do you have a problem with In-N-Out Burger in Utah?!

Only their cardboard fries...

[Hamba Tuhan]

51 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I wonder about refugees that have a hard time adjusting to having to leave their countries. And I may not even have any basis for those worries. 

There are very legitimate reasons to worry about the lingering impact of trauma on refugees. What the First Presidency are asking us to do -- 'to help create welcoming communities by volunteering [our] time, talents and friendship to individuals and families who are integrating into our societies' -- is precisely what minimises this impact.

In my lifetime, I have been a temporary migrant in two different nations and am now a naturalised citizen of a third. It's an alienating experience at best. Receiving populations often struggle to understand how that works and unthinkingly impose distance and emphasise difference. One evening when I was working in another nation, my colleagues were all discussing a new film and made plans to go to the cinema together after work. I was mildly interested in seeing this film but, more importantly, was starving for social interaction. I hadn't been invited, but I said, 'Oh, I'd love to see that movie too'. Response: 'Yeah, you should talk to some of your _____ friends and go see it'. The assumption was that I had my own network of people 'like me' and therefore would prefer to be with them. This wasn't true at all ... and it hurt. Deeply. Everyone else went to the cinema together that night, but I was left alone as one who didn't belong.

Imagine the impact that would have had if I had been the victim of war, violence, persecution, or some other conflict. Imagine if I hadn't had a church to go to on Sunday where people saw me as 'one of us'. Now multiply that many times over, week after week, sometimes year after year. There are very, very good reasons why the Lord in His parable of the sheep and the goats included taking in strangers and foreigners with feeding the hungry and clothing the naked. Being allowed to belong is as basic a need. Without it, people start to die.

Often, I think the only way I've survived all of this is because everything is so wonderfully different inside the Church. No matter where I've been, walking into a Latter-day Saint house of worship has led to a genuinely warm welcome and almost immediate access to a community. It's a miracle. And we should share the miracle with others whenever and however we can.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

When I visit France, I want to see French people and not cities that have been taken over by other cultures, languages, and peoples. 

How far back in time do you want to impose this artificial stasis? Paris, for example, used to be a Celtic town belonging to the Parisii people before it was taken over by the Franks in the fifth century. In the case of the US, I'm assuming you would pick a more recent time period, presumably after the colonisation of America and its war for independence?

Quote

If an individual has entered another country illegally, then that individual and their family members should be returned to the country of origin without exceptions.

Then you're not talking about refugees. International law, to which the US and my adopted nation are signatory, makes it clear that fleeing across an international border in order to escape war, violence, conflict or persecution is perfectly legal. The First Presidency statement is specifically about refugees.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Amen.  Our current immigration laws and attitude conflict with several gospel principles.

Does it matter?  Any law of the land that goes against the laws of God ought not to be upheld by saints.

To your reply to “Danzo”, it matters because his links lead to so many examples, but if “immigration laws”, we all a violation of all the laws of God, then why does the Church support obeying the law, here and elsewhere? I was asking, as I swore and oath to, “support and defend, the Constitution, and the Law”, such oaths from which I have never been released. Therefore I am compelled to do so until God calls me home. I know others my scoff and these words, but I am bound by honor to do so. The links I was provided listed so many laws and articles addressing policy, I could never address his concerns. This is why I asked for, “his list”. 

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

But if “immigration laws”, we all a violation of all the laws of God, then why does the Church support obeying the law, here and elsewhere?

Some questions:

• Does the Church support issuing temple recommends to undocumented migrants?
• Does the Church extend leadership callings to undocumented migrants?
• Does the Church call undocumented migrants on missions?

Answers: Yes, yes, and yes.

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Papa, I can understand some of your concerns. As much as I want help for the refugees, I worry at the same time. And on top of that, I have an illegal son-in-law that crossed over from Mexico with his dad, brother and sister right out of high school. He hasn't seen his mother for around 20 years now. Luckily they skype now but before that it was only a conversation by phone. So my heart goes out to those that feel they need to leave their countries. But the refugees are being run out of their countries, if they don't run, they'll get killed or their wives, sisters and daughters raped as well or ?. So definitely in their case we need to do something to help. 

Now on to the worries...a few years ago, there was a shooter who killed several at a mall called Trolley Square in SLC, UT.  It was a younger male from the war-torn country of Bosnia. He moved to Salt Lake as a 9 year old, and was pretty much a loner for the most part. I don't know if it had anything to do with his roots, but ever since then I wonder about refugees that have a hard time adjusting to having to leave their countries. And I may not even have any basis for those worries. 

And the diseases you mentioned, I wonder about that as well. But still want to help these individuals no matter what, and take those chances I guess. 

Here's from the article: https://www.ksl.com/article/43161303/looking-back-at-the-trolley-square-shooting-10-years-later

Talović was an 18-year-old born in Bosnia but had been living in the United States since he was 9 years old, fleeing a war-torn country. He was living and working in the Salt Lake Valley before the attack, and had attended high school in Salt Lake City before dropping out when he was 16. His family members told KSL back in 2007 that he was a hyperactive but nice child.

"What happened to Sulejman, we have no idea. He was nice boy,” Omerovic said days after the attack.

The FBI’s report noted that after moving from Bosnia when he was 9, Talovic lived near Trolley Square and played there as a child. The FBI said they believed the gunman acted alone, never told anyone why and left no reason as to why he would carry out the attack.

"This was an individual who had come to this country, obviously a strange country to him, and was somewhat of a loner and somewhat isolated from the rest of society," Tim Fuhrman, then-FBI Special Agent in Charge for the bureau's Salt Lake office, said, in 2009.

I certainly feel your compassion in your kind words, but taking the unvaccinated, whom we know, due to conditions in large “homeless communities”, that carry many diseases such as Typhous, the bubonic plaque, small pox, diseases that we once eradicated, it is wrong and wrong headed, especially to those who become sick. What of those who die, just because we feel we have a “moral right” to do so, not by law, but because of our feelings. It is not your concern to turn in your son-in-law, nor the Church,  as it is not mine to turn in my wonderful neighbor, who lives across the street, as he has committed only one crime, I know off, and outside my former jurisdiction. I have an idea of his status, but I will not ask, when I am in his home, or when he is in mine. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

2 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Some questions:

• Does the Church support issuing temple recommends to undocumented migrants?
• Does the Church extend leadership callings to undocumented migrants?
• Does the Church call undocumented migrants on missions?

Answers: Yes, yes, and yes.

1. I don’t know if they can, or do.

2. We are a worldwide Church, and I am sure members in the Ward can and will serve, as far as GA’s, I doubt they would be called. 

3. I cannot answer your third question, although it would be an effective tool, to send them home to their native country for all. 

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

2 hours ago, Duncan said:

do you have a problem with In-N-Out Burger in Utah?!

Don’t know where this came from, but what person could have a problem with, “In-N-Out Burgers, I mean that is “Holy Land”, yummy! 😅

[Hamba Tuhan]

10 minutes ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

1. I don’t know if they can, or do.

2. We are a worldwide Church, and I am sure members in the Ward can and will serve, as far as GA’s, I doubt they would be called. 

3. I cannot answer your third question, although it would be an effective tool, to send them home to their native country for all. 

I provided the links that answer these questions if you look at them. We have been instructed not to ask people if they are documented when interviewing them for baptism or temple recommends, when considering them for callings, or when calling them on missions. In the case of the US, undocumented missionaries are specifically called to American missions, and the Church previously was using buses to transport them to and from their fields of service rather than aeroplanes in order to help protect them from detection and deportation. (And we do something similar here.) Now, apparently, these missionaries aren't using public transport in America at all. Have a look at the links in my post if you want more details.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Rain]

7 hours ago, pogi said:

No, you would not support an increase legal immigration and refugees?  

It would be nice if we just matched last year. The number allowed was cut almost in half from last year which was less than the year before. And when you know that only the most vulnerable are the ones being allowed in the US it makes me sad about the ones who are above the allowed amount.

[Rain]

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

According to the UN, 'Refugees are people who have fled war, violence, conflict or persecution and have crossed an international border to find safety in another country'. I honestly don't know what the terms legal and illegal mean in this context. If someone hasn't crossed an international border, s/he isn't a refugee.

I am not into law by any means, but having learned in meetings from the person over all the refugees coming into AZ and working closely with a charity that helps refugees I've understood that in the US "refugee" is also a legal term. Refugee, asylum seeker, illegal alien or immigrant, unaccompanied minor, immigrant and probably other statuses all have different legal terms. 

It occurred to me last year that many of other country's illegal immigrants or asylum seekers are now the refugees coming here. 

 

7 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Likewise, if a person hasn't crossed the international border as a consequence of fleeing war, violence, conflict or persecution, s/he isn't a refugee. I feel confident that the First Presidency understand this internationally accepted definition.

Having now read the statement it seems to be speaking of the UN definition above verses the US legal definition. We've had asylum seekers flooding into the US, especially in the last year. Because asylum seekers can cross the border illegally and then ask for asylum many consider them as "illegal refugees" even though they are now not illegal and legally were never refugees in the US, 

[Rain]

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Papa, I can understand some of your concerns. As much as I want help for the refugees, I worry at the same time. And on top of that, I have an illegal son-in-law that crossed over from Mexico with his dad, brother and sister right out of high school. He hasn't seen his mother for around 20 years now. Luckily they skype now but before that it was only a conversation by phone. So my heart goes out to those that feel they need to leave their countries. But the refugees are being run out of their countries, if they don't run, they'll get killed or their wives, sisters and daughters raped as well or ?. So definitely in their case we need to do something to help. 

Now on to the worries...a few years ago, there was a shooter who killed several at a mall called Trolley Square in SLC, UT.  It was a younger male from the war-torn country of Bosnia. He moved to Salt Lake as a 9 year old, and was pretty much a loner for the most part. I don't know if it had anything to do with his roots, but ever since then I wonder about refugees that have a hard time adjusting to having to leave their countries. And I may not even have any basis for those worries. 

If people from other countries were the only ones doing this I think you might have a case. Since we have so many people raised here killing people, the idea that we might be more at risk with refugees doesn't even enter my mind.

4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And the diseases you mentioned, I wonder about that as well. But still want to help these individuals no matter what, and take those chances I guess. 

Here's from the article: https://www.ksl.com/article/43161303/looking-back-at-the-trolley-square-shooting-10-years-later

Talović was an 18-year-old born in Bosnia but had been living in the United States since he was 9 years old, fleeing a war-torn country. He was living and working in the Salt Lake Valley before the attack, and had attended high school in Salt Lake City before dropping out when he was 16. His family members told KSL back in 2007 that he was a hyperactive but nice child.

"What happened to Sulejman, we have no idea. He was nice boy,” Omerovic said days after the attack.

The FBI’s report noted that after moving from Bosnia when he was 9, Talovic lived near Trolley Square and played there as a child. The FBI said they believed the gunman acted alone, never told anyone why and left no reason as to why he would carry out the attack.

"This was an individual who had come to this country, obviously a strange country to him, and was somewhat of a loner and somewhat isolated from the rest of society," Tim Fuhrman, then-FBI Special Agent in Charge for the bureau's Salt Lake office, said, in 2009.

 

[Rain]

 

 

 

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I am personally against all migration for economic reasons. I appreciate separate nations with unique cultures, languages, and forms of government. When I visit France, I want to see French people and not cities that have been taken over by other cultures, languages, and peoples. 

I love visiting other countries and cultures. It is so fun to really experience those cultures.

One of the coolest things I have ever experienced was going to an apartment complex where lots of refugees live. That Sunday afternoon there must have been 100-150 children in the center speaking at least 10 different languages, all playing happily together. It was beautiful. Heaven.

Selfishly, I want France to keep its culture. And China. And Mexico. I want to see that when I visit. But here in the US it is so awesome to have us all together and I wish it were more so. 

Now in my ward we have by birth. Americans, Tongans, Mexicans, Somoans, Israeli, German and maybe others. I love hearing all the languages and having the cultures mixed together. 

Quote

I want borders that are respected, definite, clear and without exceptions to legal violations. If an individual has entered another country illegally, then that individual and their family members should be returned to the country of origin without exceptions.

Which country? The one where they were born in and now might have been in danger of being killed or the countries they might have crossed into illegally before arriving here?

Quote

There is a reason they call it illegal.  Any heartache caused by such an action is not the responsibility of the host country, but of the illegal aliens themselves.

I've found much of the heartache is caused by those being cruel to those who enter here illegally.

Quote

I believe in the value of citizenship. It has great value and should not be given away for free. 

I believe in nations having the ability and right to accept immigrants by choice. The process of gaining of worker permits should be streamlined and facilitated to ensure that employment opportunities, that are surplus to the local populations, are filled. 

I strongly support first world nations supporting third world nations in effective ways to create businesses, safe neighborhoods, and strong national cultures. 

 

Don't get me wrong. I think the whole mess is incredibly complicated. I just don't think it is an easy matter of just tossing "illegals" back out, nor do I think they should all go.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Rain

[Hamba Tuhan]

This just appeared in my Facebook feed: Trump gave states the power to ban refugees. Conservative Utah wants more of them. Good stuff!

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Danzo said:

we just finished helping a person here illegally to get a tax id number and file their taxes.

This person will now help keep the social security trust fund solvent for those of you who collect social security.

 

Your welcome.

Will that person be given SS benefits upon retirement if he/she is here illegally?

[Rain]

4 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This just appeared in my Facebook feed: Trump gave states the power to ban refugees. Conservative Utah wants more of them. Good stuff!

There are many in AZ asking our governor for them as well.

[Bernard Gui]

7 hours ago, Ahab said:

I'm fine with having people checked at the borders to see if they are carrying weapons or drugs or anything illegal like that.  I had to go through that kind of check to get into Disneyland recently. And when they saw I didn't have anything like that they just let me go in.

Why can't it be like that?   Answer: it could be.  They could then just say something like: "Hi!  Good to see you! Welcome, welcome! Have a nice day!"

That’s it? No questions, no medical exams, no background or criminal checks? No verification of identity? Should there be a limit on numbers who enter without permission?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I provided the links that answer these questions if you look at them. We have been instructed not to ask people if they are documented when interviewing them for baptism or temple recommends, when considering them for callings, or when calling them on missions. In the case of the US, undocumented missionaries are specifically called to American missions, and the Church previously was using buses to transport them to and from their fields of service rather than aeroplanes in order to help protect them from detection and deportation. (And we do something similar here.) Now, apparently, these missionaries aren't using public transport in America at all. Have a look at the links in my post if you want more details.

How does this square with the 12th Article of Faith

Quote

10. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

and D&C 134?

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

How does this square with the 12th Article of Faith and D&C 134?

I assume you're more familiar with the scriptures and with Church history than that question suggests, but if not, I'm happy for you to take up the matter with the prophets, who are the ones making such decisions.

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Bill “Papa” Lee said:

I was not aware the Church was supporting or suggesting deportation of anyone ever. I pray this is not the case. Because if you are suggesting that my comments even implied such a thing, you most of all. I am indeed both misunderstood, and am devoid of any ability to express myself in print, and an illiterate. If this is so, I no longer need embarrass myself so, and I should get the hint. If this is so, spare me the pain, and just tell me, “you are an embarrassment”.  Back down to 5% on my iPad, that would seem a good omen. 

They are not. They support keeping families together. 

It is the law that may break up families. At this time in the US, laws may get broken if one helps a family stay together...perhaps not personally breaking a law, but helping another to do so.

I am going to be blunt and say I am confused by your opening post. I don’t understand the point you were trying to make. It probably would have been helpful to post what the Church said that you think was misunderstood and not just paraphrase it. 

Here are links to the Church’s statements on immigration to help provide context on refugees as well as a resource page for refugees:

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/official-statement/immigration

https://newsroom.churchofjesuschrist.org/article/immigration-response

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/si/questions/immigration-and-refugees?lang=eng

 

[Calm]

6 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

am personally against all migration for economic reasons.

So when my husband and I moved to Canada so he could get a better job as a university professor, should that move have been outlawed or otherwise prevented in your view?