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The Matthew Gong Letter


pogi

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The "Matthew Gong letter" is an obvious psyop meant to further move Mormons towards accepting homosexuality as normal and healthy.

If the globalist cabal is trying normalize Globo-Homo as a means to reduce population and weaken the cattle then why do we see the 12 apostles on the wrong side of this issue?

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On 11/18/2019 at 7:42 PM, california boy said:

I am sorry I missed all of this.  I woke up this morning, went on my usual bike ride, went to the gym.  Then I spent the rest of the day at the San Francisco Seniors Center helping seniors do things that they physically either could not do or was difficult for them.  I did a demonstration on how to center and throw a form one of the seniors was having difficulty with on the potters wheel and then walked her through how to do it herself.  I then threw a couple of urns on the potters wheel.  It is a little project I have been working on for the past couple of months.  It started with a call from a friend of mine.  His father had died and he asked me if it would be ok if they interned his fathers ashes in a lidded jar I had made and gave to him about 15 years ago.  I was so honored that he would want to do something like that, I decided to throw a series of urns and then give them to a local hospice center to give to any relatives that might also want to burry their loved one in something less commercial and made with love.  Even though I will never know the recipients of these  urns, I just wanted them to know that at such a private moment of grief, a perfect strange was willing to reach out to them in a small act of love. 

Got home at about 4 in the afternoon, had to get something to eat since I hadn't had anything to eat since breakfast.  This wasn't something inspired from God.  I try to go to the senior center a couple of days a week.  So since it wasn't God inspired, I guess I am still just an evil person.  

I am thrilled to hear you are without sin however.  Good for you.  Not many have been able to achieve that.  

I also want to say once again, I am not the least offended with your views on my standing before God.  Mostly because, you really don't have a say in that relationship.  

Sometimes, we humans are pretty bad at attempting to discern what's inspired of God and what isn't.  Moroni had it right: Whatsoever is good and persuadeth men to do good and to believe in Christ cometh of God.  Whatever does not, is not.  Then, too, in the Doctrine and Covenants: "Inasmuch as men do good" ... men of whatever religious persuasion, and even of no particular persuasion at all ... "they shall in nowise lose their reward" (Doctrine & Covenants 58:28).  I laud you for the good you do, and I believe you will be blessed accordingly.  Pigeonholing people according to particular characteristics is a particularly popular human pastime, but people are people: they're not their characteristics.  As the great philosophers Stevie Wonder and Paul McCartney so aptly put it, "There is good and bad in everyone."

Kudos to you.

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Link to talk please so we can see context. For all we know from the one sentence given, he could be saying the Bible was wrong.

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On 11/23/2019 at 5:03 PM, TedTalks said:

The "Matthew Gong letter" is an obvious psyop meant to further move Mormons towards accepting homosexuality as normal and healthy.

If the globalist cabal is trying normalize Globo-Homo as a means to reduce population and weaken the cattle then why do we see the 12 apostles on the wrong side of this issue?

Into conspiracy theories much?

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Link to talk please so we can see context. For all we know from the one sentence given, he could be saying the Bible was wrong.

I guess you're talking to me. If I could I would go in and cut off the top that shows the quote by Elder Peterson. I can't do that. And do the GC talks go back that far?

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I guess you're talking to me. If I could I would go in and cut off the top that shows the quote by Elder Peterson. I can't do that. And do the GC talks go back that far?

They have all conference talks online now so some searching by you should pull it up, I think BYU has a scripture index that includes talks. 

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

They have all conference talks online now so some searching by you should pull it up, I think BYU has a scripture index that includes talks. 

Found this: https://scriptures.byu.edu/gettalk.php?ID=1676

The closest I could get is this link, but when I tried to use it, it went to this message: This version of the LDS Scripture Citation Index is no longer supported. Please upgrade to a newer version for Android on Google Play or on the App Store for iOS.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

This surely gives pause:

The Old Testament/Law of Moses was very harsh.

The GOD of Israel was making a serious point.  The Hebrews were abysmally obtuse.  They were blind in acknowledging the wonders of the plagues on Egypt, lacking gratitude for the Pillar of Fire by night and the Pillar of Smoke by day in leading them thru the Sinai desert to the Crossing Point by the Red Sea, maintaining trust in Him as they rejected their opportunity to enter the Promised Land and constantly moaning and groaning and murmuring around the Wilderness of Midian for 40 years.

After finally invading and taking possession of the Land of Canaan, they were warned to ALWAYS remember the LORD, otherwise they would be subject to utter destruction just as the Canaanites were.  If they would at least keep the fundamentals and NOT slide gradually into the abominations of Baal, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, Dagon, Moloch, etc, then they would be able to avoid utter depredations of invading nations and empires.  Sadly they descended into sacrificing their children, engaging in abhorrent sexual practises with random strangers (ritually and hedonistically) and many other observances that tore apart their families.

ETA:  Just read Tacenda's latest post above.   Elder Mark Petersen truly was a GREAT man.  And very insightful and explicit (which is greatly needed, both then and NOW).

Edited by longview
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2 minutes ago, longview said:

The GOD of Israel was making a serious point.  The Hebrews were abysmally obtuse.  They were blind in acknowledging the wonders of the plagues on Egypt, lacking gratitude for the Pillar of Fire by night and the Pillar of Smoke by day in leading them thru the Sinai desert to the Crossing Point by the Red Sea, maintaining trust in Him as they rejected their opportunity to enter the Promised Land and constantly moaning and groaning and murmuring around the Wilderness of Midian for 40 years.

After finally invading and taking possession of the Land of Canaan, they were warned to ALWAYS remember the LORD, otherwise they would be subject to utter destruction just as the Canaanites were.  If they would at least keep the fundamentals and NOT slide gradually into the abominations of Baal, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, Dagon, Moloch, etc, then they would be able to avoid utter depredations of invading nations and empires.  Sadly they descended into sacrificing their children, engaging in abhorrent sexual practises with random strangers (ritually and hedonistically) and many other observances that tore apart their families.

That can all be true, but it's still harsh to teach that a woman should be killed for not being a virgin when married while the virginity of the man on his wedding day didn't matter.  I struggle to believe that God cared so much about the virginity of a woman that not being a virgin was worthy of death, while He didn't care at all about the sexual habits of men.  

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27 minutes ago, bluebell said:

That can all be true, but it's still harsh to teach that a woman should be killed for not being a virgin when married while the virginity of the man on his wedding day didn't matter.  I struggle to believe that God cared so much about the virginity of a woman that not being a virgin was worthy of death, while He didn't care at all about the sexual habits of men.  

It's that temple thing again, that no one believes anymore

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1 hour ago, longview said:

ETA:  Just read Tacenda's latest post above.   Elder Mark Petersen truly was a GREAT man.  And very insightful and explicit (which is greatly needed, both then and NOW).

Interesting that this talk was given the same year that the book Miracle of Forgiveness was published (1969), and is remarkably of the same stiff and hard-handed tone.  Given the times and emerging culture, I can see why their way of life felt threatened as they felt a need to lay down the law.  In retrospect, Kimball wishes that he would have used a gentler tone and focused more on forgiveness than repentance and sin.  The only people who I think get anything from these types of guilt/shame laden talks are those who are already following the rules and feel vindicated over the sinners.  But for those who were struggling and looking for empathy and compassion as they work through their issues towards redemption and forgiveness, this type of tone was divisive and polarizing and sucks the light of hope right out of them.  It built the obedient up in pride, and tore the sinner down in shame - causing some to be more judgmental, and on the flip side more rebellious.   That is not what we want to see for the obedient or sinner.  While I agree that Elder Petersen was a great man, I don't think his tone in this talk is needed today.  Indeed, we have intentionally distanced ourselves from the Miracle of Forgiveness approach and tone.  We have learned, improved, progressed, and we are in a better place now.  I hope we never go back to that era and style.

Quote

 

Indeed, writes the son, "Miracle" was a book "more on sin and repentance than on forgiveness."

Kimball "later seemed to wish he had adopted a gentler tone," Edward Kimball writes.

In 1977, the Mormon leader said to Lyle Ward, his neighbor, "Sometimes I think I might have been a little too strong about some of the things I wrote in that book."

...he wished he had communicated more understanding and encouragement."

 


 

Edited by pogi
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49 minutes ago, pogi said:

But for those who were struggling and looking for empathy and compassion as they work through their issues towards redemption and forgiveness, this type of tone was divisive and polarizing and sucks the light of hope right out of them.  It built the obedient up in pride, and tore the sinner down in shame - causing some to be more judgmental, and on the flip side more rebellious.   That is not what we want to see for the obedient or sinner.

You just love the "snowflake culture" don't you?  I believe there is plenty of compassion and urgency in meetings with the bishop and the stake president.  There is nothing prideful about being penitent and humble before your Maker.  Everyone is a sinner, myself included.  I heard a saying years ago:  "a person is really NOT a christian if he is not repenting EVERY day."  Shame is NOT the focus.  The five R's are important:

  1. Recognition that one has done wrong and failed God
  2. Remorse at the dishonour one has done to God
  3. Requesting of God’s pardon and cleansing
  4. Renunciation of the sins in question and resolve to live right for the future
  5. Restitution to those who suffer material loss through one’s wrongdoing
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32 minutes ago, longview said:

You just love the "snowflake culture" don't you?

No, I actually really disagree with it.  

32 minutes ago, longview said:

There is nothing prideful about being penitent and humble before your Maker.  Everyone is a sinner, myself included.  

Agreed.

32 minutes ago, longview said:

 I heard a saying years ago:  "a person is really NOT a christian if he is not repenting EVERY day."  Shame is NOT the focus.  The five R's are important:

  1. Recognition that one has done wrong and failed God
  2. Remorse at the dishonour one has done to God
  3. Requesting of God’s pardon and cleansing
  4. Renunciation of the sins in question and resolve to live right for the future
  5. Restitution to those who suffer material loss through one’s wrongdoing

I love the 5 R's.  

Don't think that I am equating teaching repentance with shame.  Very different things.  He is not wrong to teach repentance, it is the delivery that I think was more harmful than helpful for the sinners he was addressing in this talk (not the everyday sinner).

I'd say more but I have to go for now. 

Do you think the church is wrong for learning and improving it's delivery - moving away from the Miracle of Forgiveness tone and approach?

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3 hours ago, pogi said:

Do you think the church is wrong for learning and improving it's delivery - moving away from the Miracle of Forgiveness tone and approach?

No.  Maybe the church is being more diplomatic in separating SSA from actual participation in the lifestyle.  I see no problem with any of the points Kimball made in his book.  Would you question the "tone and approach" of the hymn:  "Onward Christian Soldiers" if some consider it too militaristic, too dogmatic, too stern, etc?  I would not.  I love it and embrace the representation of our purpose here on earth (which is to battle the fallen nature of this vale of tears).

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7 hours ago, longview said:

The GOD of Israel was making a serious point.  The Hebrews were abysmally obtuse.  They were blind in acknowledging the wonders of the plagues on Egypt, lacking gratitude for the Pillar of Fire by night and the Pillar of Smoke by day in leading them thru the Sinai desert to the Crossing Point by the Red Sea, maintaining trust in Him as they rejected their opportunity to enter the Promised Land and constantly moaning and groaning and murmuring around the Wilderness of Midian for 40 years.

After finally invading and taking possession of the Land of Canaan, they were warned to ALWAYS remember the LORD, otherwise they would be subject to utter destruction just as the Canaanites were.  If they would at least keep the fundamentals and NOT slide gradually into the abominations of Baal, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, Dagon, Moloch, etc, then they would be able to avoid utter depredations of invading nations and empires.  Sadly they descended into sacrificing their children, engaging in abhorrent sexual practises with random strangers (ritually and hedonistically) and many other observances that tore apart their families.

ETA:  Just read Tacenda's latest post above.   Elder Mark Petersen truly was a GREAT man.  And very insightful and explicit (which is greatly needed, both then and NOW).

Or maybe it is all just the ramblings of a superstitious nomadic iron age tribe that tried to justify their killings, rapes and other depredations by saying god told us to do it.  When taken as a whole, that is what the OT really is.  The ramblings and tall tales and justifications by blaming their god for the genocide and terrible things they did.

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1 hour ago, sunstoned said:

Or maybe it is all just the ramblings of a superstitious nomadic iron age tribe that tried to justify their killings, rapes and other depredations by saying god told us to do it.  When taken as a whole, that is what the OT really is.  The ramblings and tall tales and justifications by blaming their god for the genocide and terrible things they did.

I agree

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11 hours ago, sunstoned said:

Or maybe it is all just the ramblings of a superstitious nomadic iron age tribe that tried to justify their killings, rapes and other depredations by saying god told us to do it.  When taken as a whole, that is what the OT really is.  The ramblings and tall tales and justifications by blaming their god for the genocide and terrible things they did.

How do you feel about Christ and the New Testament as products of the Old Testament.  Christ himself reading and preaching from it.  You can’t have one without the other.

 

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14 hours ago, longview said:

No.  Maybe the church is being more diplomatic in separating SSA from actual participation in the lifestyle.  I see no problem with any of the points Kimball made in his book.  Would you question the "tone and approach" of the hymn:  "Onward Christian Soldiers" if some consider it too militaristic, too dogmatic, too stern, etc?  I would not.  I love it and embrace the representation of our purpose here on earth (which is to battle the fallen nature of this vale of tears).

Maybe it has been a while since you have read the book, but if you compare The Miracle of Forgiveness with Mormonandgay.org you will see many areas where the book is not in-line with current church teachings.  Never in a million years should you ever encourage a r*pe victim to read the book.  If you want to instill hope for redemption, this is not the book.  Do you agree that m*sterbation leads to homos*xuality? Do you agree that SSA is a sin?

Mormonandgay.org:

Quote

individuals do not choose to have such attractions [and] attraction to those of the same sex should not be viewed as a disease or illness.

Miracle of Forgiveness:

Quote

Next in seriousness to nonrecognition of the sin is the attempt to justify oneself in this perversion. Many have been misinformed that they are powerless in the matter, not responsible for the tendency, and that "God made them that way." This is as untrue as any other of the diabolical lies Satan has concocted. It is blasphemy. Man is made in the image of God. Does the pervert think God to be "that way"?  To those weaklings who argue this way, James answers...

So which is it?  You really see "no problem" with "any points"?

This is just 1 small paragraph from the book.  It goes on and on...

If your son was gay, would you recommend this book to him?  

Quote

 

Allen Bergin, a retired Brigham Young University psychologist, says he has read "the ugly chapter on homosexuality ... many times."

"There are some good things in it that are useful," says Bergin, former president of the Association of Mormon Counselors and Psychotherapists. "But they are overshadowed by a host of negatives and also outdated policies that the church itself doesn't even endorse any more."

 


 

Edited by pogi
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The church has abandoned endorsing and sponsoring homosexual conversion therapy.  A few years back Elder Gerrit Gong presents a technology video to the quorum of 12

and first presidency where he is introducing the idea that church members could use drugs and gene-therapy to counter homosexuality. 

[Rapidly advancing neurobiology, bio-chemistry and gene therapy raised new opportunities and new questions:
Should Church members consider using new drugs or gene-therapy to:
1)  Break drug addiction
2)  Counter homosexuality?
3)  help shy teenagers become outgoing?
4)  enhance student performance

A student choosing performance enhancing drugs to concentrate during a test after studying all night is already here.

Do any such drugs contradict the word of wisdom?

Elder Packer:  Science and morality.
Those two words they might go together but science has got a lot to learn first.  You've got to at least first admit that there is something spiritual.

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15 hours ago, pogi said:

How do you feel about Christ and the New Testament as products of the Old Testament.  Christ himself reading and preaching from it.  You can’t have one without the other.

 

Yes you can. Christ was teaching the Jews.  The Jews believed in the OT, so he used stories from it.  Christ also taught in parables  Parables are also allegoric.

 

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