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The Matthew Gong Letter


pogi

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On 11/15/2019 at 4:42 PM, Ahab said:

i also said previously that it would be some kind of miracle, like God inspiring an evil person to become good.  Otherwise, why would an evil person ever want to be good?=

I just didn't want to try to imagine a person doing good and evil at the same time, so instead of me having to think about that and come up with an example, I asked you to provide one instead.

Picture that, would you. Someone having sex with someone who is not their husband or wife while on the phone to donate some money to a charity.  That is quite the imagination you have, and I don't think God would be impressed with that person's charitable donation.

Funny?   You think so, do you.

I am sorry I missed all of this.  I woke up this morning, went on my usual bike ride, went to the gym.  Then I spent the rest of the day at the San Francisco Seniors Center helping seniors do things that they physically either could not do or was difficult for them.  I did a demonstration on how to center and throw a form one of the seniors was having difficulty with on the potters wheel and then walked her through how to do it herself.  I then threw a couple of urns on the potters wheel.  It is a little project I have been working on for the past couple of months.  It started with a call from a friend of mine.  His father had died and he asked me if it would be ok if they interned his fathers ashes in a lidded jar I had made and gave to him about 15 years ago.  I was so honored that he would want to do something like that, I decided to throw a series of urns and then give them to a local hospice center to give to any relatives that might also want to burry their loved one in something less commercial and made with love.  Even though I will never know the recipients of these  urns, I just wanted them to know that at such a private moment of grief, a perfect strange was willing to reach out to them in a small act of love. 

Got home at about 4 in the afternoon, had to get something to eat since I hadn't had anything to eat since breakfast.  This wasn't something inspired from God.  I try to go to the senior center a couple of days a week.  So since it wasn't God inspired, I guess I am still just an evil person.  

I am thrilled to hear you are without sin however.  Good for you.  Not many have been able to achieve that.  

I also want to say once again, I am not the least offended with your views on my standing before God.  Mostly because, you really don't have a say in that relationship.  

Edited by california boy
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32 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am sorry I missed all of this.  I woke up this morning, went on my usual bike ride, went to the gym.  Then I spent the rest of the day at the San Francisco Seniors Center helping seniors do things that they physically either could not do or was difficult for them.  I did a demonstration on how to center and throw a form one of the seniors was having difficulty with on the potters wheel and then walked her through how to do it herself.  Got home at about 4 in the afternoon, had to get something to eat since I hadn't had anything to eat since breakfast.  This wasn't something inspired from God.  I try to go to the senior center a couple of days a week.  So since it wasn't God inspired, I guess I am still just an evil person.  

I am thrilled to hear you are without sin however.  Good for you.  Not many have been able to achieve that.  

I also want to say once again, I am not the least offended with your views on my standing before God.  Mostly because, you really don't have a say in that relationship.  

We would all do well to focus more on how we curate our lives.

I give you high marks for how you curated your life today.

Carry on!  

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17 hours ago, california boy said:

I am sorry I missed all of this.  I woke up this morning, went on my usual bike ride, went to the gym.  Then I spent the rest of the day at the San Francisco Seniors Center helping seniors do things that they physically either could not do or was difficult for them.  I did a demonstration on how to center and throw a form one of the seniors was having difficulty with on the potters wheel and then walked her through how to do it herself.  I then threw a couple of urns on the potters wheel.  It is a little project I have been working on for the past couple of months.  It started with a call from a friend of mine.  His father had died and he asked me if it would be ok if they interned his fathers ashes in a lidded jar I had made and gave to him about 15 years ago.  I was so honored that he would want to do something like that, I decided to throw a series of urns and then give them to a local hospice center to give to any relatives that might also want to burry their loved one in something less commercial and made with love.  Even though I will never know the recipients of these  urns, I just wanted them to know that at such a private moment of grief, a perfect strange was willing to reach out to them in a small act of love. 

Got home at about 4 in the afternoon, had to get something to eat since I hadn't had anything to eat since breakfast.  This wasn't something inspired from God.  I try to go to the senior center a couple of days a week.  So since it wasn't God inspired, I guess I am still just an evil person.  

I am thrilled to hear you are without sin however.  Good for you.  Not many have been able to achieve that.  

I also want to say once again, I am not the least offended with your views on my standing before God.  Mostly because, you really don't have a say in that relationship.  

I think pogi and I came away from our discussion with an understanding I understand and have tried to explain to others that when a person does good, they are being good and therefore are good when they are doing something that is good, and that when a person does something evil, they are being evil and therefore are evil at that particular time because they are doing something which is evil.  As you know, I and others consider having sexual relations (intercourse) with someone of the same sex to be an evil thing to do, and rather than calling it good I call it evil because I believe it is evil.

It's good for me to hear that you do some things that I would call good, sometimes, too, though.  Good for you!  Keep it up!  

Personally, the more good things I do the better I feel about how I am living my life.  I don't like to do anything evil so I try not to do anything evil, rather than to do it anyway and then feel bad about it.  Doing evil things makes me feel bad, so I'd rather not do anything evil at all.

Edited by Ahab
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28 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think pogi and I came away from our discussion with an understanding that when a person does good, they are being good and therefore are good when they are doing something that is good, and that when a person does something evil, they are being evil and therefore are evil at that particular time because they are doing something which is evil.  As you know, I and others consider having sexual relations (intercourse) with someone of the same sex to be an evil thing to do, and rather than calling it good I call it evil because I believe it is evil.

It's good for me to hear that you do some things that I would call good, sometimes, too, though.  Good for you!  Keep it up!  

Personally, the more good things I do the better I feel about how I am living my life.  I don't like to do anything evil so I try not to do anything evil, rather than to do it anyway and then feel bad about it.  Doing evil things makes me feel bad, so I'd rather not do anything evil at all.

Being evil is someone who causes harm. I think you have a titch of evil for calling someone evil, like California Boy. He isn't in the least. How about you call the leaders such as bishops that have been caught abusing children or women lately, evil. How come we never hear you say they are evil? 

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6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Being evil is someone who causes harm.

How about if we include sexual sin as a form of harm?  If a man entices another man to have sexual relations with him, I would say that is a form of harm, even if they both agree to do it.

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I think you have a titch of evil for calling someone evil, like California Boy. He isn't in the least.

I say that he and anyone else is evil only when doing something that is evil.  When someone does something that is evil, I do not call that a good thing.  I call it evil, because that is what it is.

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

How about you call the leaders such as bishops that have been caught abusing children or women lately, evil. How come we never hear you say they are evil? 

They were evil when they did that, and they would be evil again if they were to do it again.  Hopefully they have all repented by now and do not want to do something like that again. When we repent from doing evil and are forgiven by God, and we are not doing anything that is evil, then we can refer to ourselves as good because God then considers us to be good.  He doesn't hold previous transgressions against us as long as we repent from anything we have done that was evil, determined to not do any evil thing again.  Repeat offenders who have not repented from doing evil still need to repent rather than try to justify their actions by calling them good when they are not good.  It is never good for people of the same sex to have sexual relations (intercourse) with each other, even if they are married according to some evil law of the land.

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57 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I think pogi and I came away from our discussion with an understanding that...

Do you genuinely believe that we both came away from our discussion with that understanding?

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3 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you genuinely believe that we both came away from our discussion with that understanding?

 Yes.  I agreed with it and I don't think you did but I think we both understood it.

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6 minutes ago, Ahab said:

 Yes.  I agreed with it and I don't think you did but I think we both understood it.

 

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I think pogi and I came away from our discussion with an understanding that...

Why would you even include me in that sentence if you don’t think I agreed with it?  The only thing that I “understand” is that you are confused.

Do you seriously not see how that implies that I understand and agree with you?  Anyone not following this thread would read that and think that we were in agreement - that is what it implies.

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11 minutes ago, pogi said:

 

Why would you even include me in that sentence if you don’t think I agreed with it?  The only thing that I “understand” is that you are confused.

Do you seriously not see how that implies that I understand and agree with you?  Anyone not following this thread would read that and think that we were in agreement - that is what it implies.

Thank you for providing another example of why I don't like assumptions and implications.  I never said you agreed with it.  I said I thought you understood it. And I mentioned you because we had a discussion about it in this thread.

And no I am not confused about this, and I don't care why you would say that I am.  I am not confused and you shouldn't say that I am.  

I recommend that you stop assuming and stop saying that things I haven't said are implied in what I have said.  When you want to know what I think, ask me and I'll tell you.  A good principle to apply when trying to learn what God thinks, too.

Edited by Ahab
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12 minutes ago, Ahab said:

I recommend that you stop assuming and stop saying that things I haven't said are implied in what I have said.  When you want to know what I think, ask me and I'll tell you.  

First, I didn't assume.  I DID in fact ask you a clarifying question.  Second, don't blame me for your poor language skills.  IT is not AT ALL clear what you meant. 

Again, here is what you said:

1 hour ago, Ahab said:

I think pogi...came away from our discussion with an understanding that when a person does good, they are being good and therefore are good when they are doing something that is good, and that when a person does something evil, they are being evil and therefore are evil at that particular time because they are doing something which is evil. 

You genuinely don't see how that implies that I agree?  

Anyone care to back me up here, or am I crazy?

That IS NOT my understanding.  Don't say that it is, and I suggest you retract your statement because it is not true. 

Edited by pogi
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1 minute ago, pogi said:

First, I didn't assume.  I DID in fact ask you a clarifying question.  Second, don't blame me for your poor language skills.  IT is not AT ALL clear what you meant. 

Again, here is what you said:

You genuinely don't see how that implies that I agree?  

Anyone care to back me up here, or am I crazy?

That IS NOT my understanding.  Don't say that it is.

So are you now telling me that you don't understand that when a person does good, they are being good and therefore are good when they are doing something that is good, and that when a person does something evil, they are being evil and therefore are evil at that particular time because they are doing something which is evil?

I apologize if you don't understand that.  I thought you did understand it but did not agree with it.

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9 minutes ago, Ahab said:

So are you now telling me that you don't understand that when a person does good, they are being good and therefore are good when they are doing something that is good, and that when a person does something evil, they are being evil and therefore are evil at that particular time because they are doing something which is evil?

I apologize if you don't understand that.  I thought you did understand it but did not agree with it.

Stop playing games and just retract it.  It is not a true statement, or is at the very least misleading.  To say "it is Pogi's understanding that..." suggests it is what I believe.  I understand that it is your understanding, but it is not my understanding.   Surely you see that. 

Edited by pogi
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8 minutes ago, pogi said:

Stop playing games and just retract it.  It is not a true statement, or is at the very least misleading.  To say "it is Pogi's understanding that..." suggests it is what I believe.  I understand that it is your understanding, but it is not my understanding.   Surely you see that. 

Okay, consider it retracted.  I thought you understood it but I now understand you to be saying you don't.

edited to add: If I had thought you agreed with it or believed it I would have said that instead of only saying that you understood that, or that was your understanding.

Edited by Ahab
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17 minutes ago, pogi said:

First, I didn't assume.  I DID in fact ask you a clarifying question.  Second, don't blame me for your poor language skills.  IT is not AT ALL clear what you meant. 

Again, here is what you said:

You genuinely don't see how that implies that I agree?  

Anyone care to back me up here, or am I crazy?

That IS NOT my understanding.  Don't say that it is, and I suggest you retract your statement because it is not true. 

Full back up here. You are not crazy. 

If he doesn't retract, I'm going to report it.  It's very unfair to try to blame you for his failure to communicate. 

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7 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Okay, consider it retracted.  I thought you understood it but I now understand you to be saying you don't.

Ok, you are going to retract it, but not for the reason that I want it retracted.  You are still playing word games and refuse to acknowledge that it implies that I agree. Whatever!  You are one determined and inexorable fellow, Mr. Ahab

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17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Ok, you are going to retract it, but not for the reason that I want it retracted.  You are still playing word games and refuse to acknowledge that it implies that I agree. Whatever!  You are one determined and inexorable fellow, Mr. Ahab

Lots of things that aren't true can be concluded or drawn from a comment that is not explicitly stated in that comment, so I think it's better to avoid implications and assumptions and simply ask or find out what someone means when they say something.

So rather than play with implications and assumptions, I suggest that the next time you want to know what I mean when I say something, you first start with what I explicitly state and then ask me if there is something I think that I didn't say.

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47 minutes ago, Ahab said:

Lots of things that aren't true can be concluded or drawn from a comment that is not explicitly stated in that comment, so I think it's better to avoid implications and assumptions and simply ask or find out what someone means when they say something.

So rather than play with implications and assumptions, I suggest that the next time you want to know what I mean when I say something, you first start with what I explicitly state and then ask me if there is something I think that I didn't say.

First, I agree, we shouldn't assume.  I didn't.  Again, you say "it's better to...simply ask..." as if I did not ask fact ask for clarification.  I did!   

Look, I understand miscommunication happens and that language can be messy.  Normally I would let it go after the person explains what they meant, but in your case you are being so damn stubborn and prideful that you are treating me as if I am in the wrong for even thinking that you meant what you said.  To say that two people "walked away with an understanding that..." it literally means that they agree!  Can you please at least acknowledge that your statement makes it look as if we agree.  

Quote

 

 5. COUNTABLE NOUN

An understanding is an informal agreement about something.
We had not set a date for marriage but there was an understanding between us. [+ between]

 

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20 minutes ago, pogi said:

First, I agree, we shouldn't assume.  I didn't.  Again, you say "it's better to...simply ask..." as if I did not ask fact ask for clarification.  I did!   

Look, I understand miscommunication happens and that language can be messy.  Normally I would let it go after the person explains what they meant, but in your case you are being so damn stubborn and prideful that you are treating me as if I am in the wrong for even thinking that you meant what you said.  To say that two people "walked away with an understanding that..." it literally means that they agree!  Can you please at least acknowledge that your statement makes it look as if we agree.  

I will admit that when I said "I think pogi and I came away from our discussion with an understanding that...", those words could have been interpreted to mean what you thought I meant.  I didn't mean that we agreed, but I can understand how you could have thought I meant that.  I did think we both understood what I thought I said was our understanding, but after further discussion from you here, after I said that, with you asking me for clarification about what I meant and me telling you, with me telling you I thought we both understood each other even though I didn't think you agreed with me, and you telling me you didn't understand what I thought you had understood, I finally reached the point where I saw that you didn't understand, based on what  you told me, and I apologized for thinking you understood when you didn't, and I retracted my statement where I said that we had reached that understanding, changing it to say only what I understood from our discussion.

Clear as a bell now?

One of the main reasons I mentioned you was because it was through our discussion that I arrived at my understanding, which I think was an improvement over what I understood earlier before we had our discussion. Before our discussion, I was saying and thinking that evil people are always evil and can never do any good, but after our discussion I realized, maybe just more fully than I had thought before, that evil people can do good but only if they stop being evil and are then good people when they then do something that is good.  Thus people are in a state of flux, where they can be either good people or evil people, depending on what they do. And I thought I had you to thank, partially, for helping me to better clarify my views, but since you don't share the same understanding and don't agree or believe what I do, I guess not.

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7 hours ago, Ahab said:

I think pogi and I came away from our discussion with an understanding I understand and have tried to explain to others that when a person does good, they are being good and therefore are good when they are doing something that is good, and that when a person does something evil, they are being evil and therefore are evil at that particular time because they are doing something which is evil.  As you know, I and others consider having sexual relations (intercourse) with someone of the same sex to be an evil thing to do, and rather than calling it good I call it evil because I believe it is evil.

It's good for me to hear that you do some things that I would call good, sometimes, too, though.  Good for you!  Keep it up!  

Personally, the more good things I do the better I feel about how I am living my life.  I don't like to do anything evil so I try not to do anything evil, rather than to do it anyway and then feel bad about it.  Doing evil things makes me feel bad, so I'd rather not do anything evil at all.

Yeah.  Not really looking for your approval.  

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6 hours ago, pogi said:

First, I didn't assume.  I DID in fact ask you a clarifying question.  Second, don't blame me for your poor language skills.  IT is not AT ALL clear what you meant. 

Again, here is what you said:

You genuinely don't see how that implies that I agree?  

Anyone care to back me up here, or am I crazy?

That IS NOT my understanding.  Don't say that it is, and I suggest you retract your statement because it is not true. 

It implies that.

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On 11/18/2019 at 10:20 AM, Ahab said:

I have noticed that there are many things that you either can't see or don't see that I have seen and am able to see.  No biggie that you can't see them right now.  Maybe later you'll develop the ability to see some of the things that I see that you haven't seen yet.

Let me explain something to you.  When you reply this way, you are putting down the spiritual abilities of the person to whom you are speaking and showing PRIDE that you are spiritually more profound than he is.   It's like saying "Well when you are as good as me, you will understand"

But you even saying that shows that you are prideful  and un-Christlike.   Can you imagine Jesus saying something like that?  "Oh don't worry about it- when you are as righteous as I am you will be able to work miracles too".

Perhaps no one has ever taught you that that is improper behavior, so when you get as righteous as I am you will understand.  

:wacko:

How does that feel?

 

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13 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Let me explain something to you.  When you reply this way, you are putting down the spiritual abilities of the person to whom you are speaking and showing PRIDE that you are spiritually more profound than he is.   It's like saying "Well when you are as good as me, you will understand"

But you even saying that shows that you are prideful  and un-Christlike.   Can you imagine Jesus saying something like that?  "Oh don't worry about it- when you are as righteous as I am you will be able to work miracles too".

Perhaps no one has ever taught you that that is improper behavior, so when you get as righteous as I am you will understand.  

:wacko:

How does that feel?

 

It feels fine. You are saying something to me with the intent of trying to help me and I appreciate your intent even though your attempt to help me was not necessary.  But you can continue to try to help me as much as you feel it is necessary or  may be helpful.

Where you are going wrong is in saying that I am prideful and un-Christlike when talking the way I talk to other people when I say something like what you quoted.... when talking to The Nehor.  

Perhaps someday you'll realize that when talking to The Nehor you can play around a little and not always be so serious, as if everything you say to him must be said ever so politely without even the slightest hint of trying to correct him or his views of reality.

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On 11/18/2019 at 5:02 PM, MustardSeed said:

Black and white thinking is one sign of personality disorder.  

I wonder how black and white the Savior was/is? 

It took me a minute to figure out you were being facetious.  Good one😊

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