Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

What do you make of this information Bluebell posted?

 

I have already mentioned that women are frequent participators and even instigators of domestic violence (equal participants in all incidents, 70% perpetrators of nonreciprocal incidents are women in a study in a Western country) and supported it with documentation.  Women when violent are also more likely to attack family members or those others see them as inherently protective of, children.

Is there something else you think I have missed?

The majority of men and women are not domestic or otherwise abusers, so I don’t see that as supporting a global assumption that men are depraved, just that there are men who are depraved. And since women also unfortunately are known to be violent in significant numbers, I don’t see lower rates of injury by women as somehow reflecting women are more spiritual given explanations of less physical strength or fear of cultural consequences are available to explain the differences in results (whether they do or not is another thing).

Plus nonviolence does not equal spirituality.  Spirituality is not the absence of wickedness or the tendency to such, but an active seeking of the divine imo.

Too be clear, I am not dragging women down to the depraved men level saying women are depraved like men. My position is that males aren’t inherently depraved, but have a spiritual heritage shared with women of heavenly parents as well as a fallen nature due to mortality shared with women as we are all mortal humans.

Edited October 27, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

On 10/26/2019 at 1:52 PM, Bernard Gui said:

True. It is baked into our beings. I think it is called the Light of Christ. However, it is possible to extinguish that light, and the stats provided seem to indicate that men do that more than women.

Bernard, this comment from you would seem to indicate you wouldn’t describe males as inherently depraved, but rather some choose to be. 

Am I correct in my understanding?

[MustardSeed]

All I “know” is how I feel.  Yesterday I was in a hotel, alone.  

Twice I found myself alone in the elevator with males.  One time I was in my exercise clothes - yoga pants and a tank- I had just used the hotel gym- and the second time I was in a very fancy dress.  

Both times, I was on high alert. 

No one should ever feel that way.  But, that’s my reality because I am female.  I don’t think I’m paranoid or over anxious.  

[Jake Starkey]

MustardSeed, I am always aware where I am, whether the people around me are men or women.  Ask any soldier or cop about the danger women as well as men pose to others.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

The differences between men and women can be seen as overlapping Bell Curves.

And a lot of different Bell Curves measuring different things at that....

(think one for church attendance, one for forming cliques, one for leadership, one for prayers, one for scripture study, one for libido, one for desire for intimate emotional connections, one for a desire for family, one for dedication to home skills, one for desire to be educated and informed, one for ambition in careers...pretty much infinite in possibilities due to infinite variables in our personalities and biological beings)

The fundamental problem with speaking about characteristics in global terms imo is internal characteristics that are the same may be expressed differently (violent tendencies may be expressed openly or covertly) and characteristics that are different may be expressed the same (a desire to help others may result in the same behaviour as a desire to look good in the eyes of others when we are measuring charitable donations).

So I am very leery of using external behaviour patterns to demonstrate internal states in order to make judgments relating to morality/righteousness levels in different groups.

[MustardSeed]

42 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

MustardSeed, I am always aware where I am, whether the people around me are men or women.  Ask any soldier or cop about the danger women as well as men pose to others.

No need to compete levels of fear.  I’ll never know yours, you’ll never know mine. 

I do know my husband feels no fear in an elevator alone with another person. 

[mfbukowski]

5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

You know, I don't worry one whit how other women dress around my husband

Not one whit, hey?

Lol.

I guess that proves my case. 

You can't imagine what you just gave away.

[Jake Starkey]

6 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

No need to compete levels of fear.  I’ll never know yours, you’ll never know mine. 

I do know my husband feels no fear in an elevator alone with another person. 

Being aware does not have to mean being fearful in the slightest.  Being aware simply means lessening the opportunity of being victimized.  However, if I were a woman, I would be extra diligent around persons bigger and stronger than you, yes.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Jake Starkey

[MustardSeed]

1 minute ago, Jake Starkey said:

Being aware does not have to mean being fearful in the slightest.  Being aware simply means lessening the opportunity of being victimized.

Ok.  You’re aware- that’s good. 

I’d say my emotion in the elevator was “moderate anxiety.”

Imo, it’s a shame, and I don’t think that should be. 

[ttribe]

4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Not one whit, hey?

Lol.

I guess that proves my case. 

You can't imagine what you just gave away.

This. This is why you aren't capable of engaging in this discussion.  You keep acting like you are the smartest guy in the room, and you just aren't and you have no business telling women how to think and feel about THEIR EXPERIENCE AS WOMEN.  That should be self-evident, but it seems to be beyond your comprehension.

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

No one should ever feel that way.  But, that’s my reality because I am female.  I don’t think I’m paranoid or over anxious.

I agree. Thanks

[mfbukowski]

4 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

However, if I were a woman, I would be extra diligent around persons bigger and stronger than you, yes.

Thank you

[mfbukowski]

2 minutes ago, ttribe said:

This. This is why you aren't capable of engaging in this discussion.  You keep acting like you are the smartest guy in the room, and you just aren't and you have no business telling women how to think and feel about THEIR EXPERIENCE AS WOMEN.  That should be self-evident, but it seems to be beyond your comprehension.

Lol.

How did my comment tell her how to feel?

I find it insulting that you think ANY man COULD tell any woman what they are experiencing, and it is a lie that I ever said that.

Here you are demeaning women and I don't know why I get the blame for it.

The fact is her choice of words make my exact point. And I can't talk about that. If you understand it you understand it if you don't, go to the temple.

Smartest guy in the room? I'm clearly an idiot to even have gotten into this, and my dear true friends warned me.

You need a new Avatar. Twist and Shout

[mfbukowski]

20 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said:

Being aware simply means lessening the opportunity of being victimized. 

Thanks

[mfbukowski]

30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I do know my husband feels no fear in an elevator alone with another person.

It is sad that you feel the need to be on guard. And unfortunately in our world that is prudent.

[ttribe]

12 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Lol.

How did my comment tell her how to feel?

I find it insulting that you think ANY man COULD tell any woman what they are experiencing, and it is a lie that I ever said that.

Here you are demeaning women and I don't know why I get the blame for it.

The fact is her choice of words make my exact point. And I can't talk about that. If you understand it you understand it if you don't, go to the temple.

Smartest guy in the room? I'm clearly an idiot to even have gotten into this, and my dear true friends warned me.

You need a new Avatar. Twist and Shout

I'm demeaning women? Where have I ever demeaned women on this board, or any other?

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

 

Oops. I answered for Bernard.

Edited October 28, 2019 by mfbukowski

[bsjkki]

38 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Not one whit, hey?

Lol.

I guess that proves my case. 

You can't imagine what you just gave away.

Since I must be really ill informed, could you please enlighten me about what you are implying? I am stumped.

[ttribe]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

Lol.

How did my comment tell her how to feel?

I find it insulting that you think ANY man COULD tell any woman what they are experiencing, and it is a lie that I ever said that.

Here you are demeaning women and I don't know why I get the blame for it.

The fact is her choice of words make my exact point. And I can't talk about that. If you understand it you understand it if you don't, go to the temple.

Smartest guy in the room? I'm clearly an idiot to even have gotten into this, and my dear true friends warned me.

You need a new Avatar. Twist and Shout

 

48 minutes ago, ttribe said:

I'm demeaning women? Where have I ever demeaned women on this board, or any other?

C'mon, Mark.  How am I demeaning women?  Perhaps we could hear from @Calm @bluebell @Peacefully @juliann @bsjkki @MustardSeed or any other woman in this thread?  If they can point to a post of mine that was demeaning of women, I will gladly accept a lifetime ban from this board.

[Peacefully]

20 minutes ago, ttribe said:

 

C'mon, Mark.  How am I demeaning women?  Perhaps we could hear from @Calm @bluebell @Peacefully @juliann @bsjkki @MustardSeed or any other woman in this thread?  If they can point to a post of mine that was demeaning of women, I will gladly accept a lifetime ban from this board.

I am as confused as you are. I’m still trying to figure out how I attacked him. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, bsjkki said:

Since I must be really ill informed, could you please enlighten me about what you are implying? I am stumped.

I am genuinely sorry but the words you used are crucial to understanding the difference between the male temple ceremonies and those for women and which is the crux of the argument.

I cannot discuss the use of those words directly or how they illustrate my point, one must know the temple ceremonies well to understand it.   That is why I am derided for supposedly portraying myself as "smart" which I definitely am not- I am just familiar with the temple ceremonies and obviously erroneously assumed that more folks also were on this LDS board.

I do not live in Utah and have never ever heard anyone speaking the word "whit" in casual conversation.

Apparently that term used in the temple is so well known that it is used casually in Utah but probably nowhere else?

http://whatdoesthatmean.com/dictionary/W/whit.html

Quote

 

Statistical data

"whit" has the frequency of use of 0.0001% on city-data.com forum

 

"whit" has the frequency of use of 0.0001% on en.wikipedia.org.

Read more: http://whatdoesthatmean.com/dictionary/W/whit.html#ixzz63c93hwJQ

 

I am glad that you feel free every whit from concerns about your husband, that is I believe how the Lord wants women to feel.

Edited October 28, 2019 by mfbukowski

[webbles]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

No need to compete levels of fear.  I’ll never know yours, you’ll never know mine. 

I do know my husband feels no fear in an elevator alone with another person. 

I've wondered if this really is a man vs woman thing.  Maybe more women (or all women) feel this but I know I also feel this as a man and I assume there are other men like me.  I have fear in elevators (not just awareness).  I usually back into the corner when I get in an elevator to make sure that I can't be attacked from behind.  I hate standing at the front of the elevator because I feel very exposed with my back to the other people in the elevator or, if I turn around, my back to the door of the elevator.  This fear isn't only because of bigger men (there aren't very many of them).  I've been afraid when old ladies get in the elevator with me.  I'll even avoid elevators if there is a person already in there (gets kind of awkward when the door opens and I have to come up with an excuse on why I'm not getting on).  I shouldn't have this fear but yet I do.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Bernard, this comment from you would seem to indicate you wouldn’t describe males as inherently depraved, but rather some choose to be. 

Am I correct in my understanding?

 

4 hours ago, Calm said:

I have already mentioned that women are frequent participators and even instigators of domestic violence (equal participants in all incidents, 70% perpetrators of nonreciprocal incidents are women in a study in a Western country) and supported it with documentation.  Women when violent are also more likely to attack family members or those others see them as inherently protective of, children.

Is there something else you think I have missed?

The majority of men and women are not domestic or otherwise abusers, so I don’t see that as supporting a global assumption that men are depraved, just that there are men who are depraved. And since women also unfortunately are known to be violent in significant numbers, I don’t see lower rates of injury by women as somehow reflecting women are more spiritual given explanations of less physical strength or fear of cultural consequences are available to explain the differences in results (whether they do or not is another thing).

Plus nonviolence does not equal spirituality.  Spirituality is not the absence of wickedness or the tendency to such, but an active seeking of the divine imo.

Too be clear, I am not dragging women down to the depraved men level saying women are depraved like men. My position is that males aren’t inherently depraved, but have a spiritual heritage shared with women of heavenly parents as well as a fallen nature due to mortality shared with women as we are all mortal humans.

Statistically, the worldwide incidence of murders and rapes is proportionately far greater committed by men, not women. I consider these acts the most egregious examples of depravity

Quote

According to the data given by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime, worldwide, 78.7% of homicide victims are men, and in 193 of the 202 listed countries or regions, men were more likely to be killed than women. In two, the ratio was 50:50 (Switzerland and British Virgin Islands), and in the remaining seven – Tonga, Iceland, Japan, New Zealand, Republic of Korea, Latvia and Hong Kong – women were slightly more likely to be victims of homicides compared to males.^[1] A 2013 global study on homicide by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime found that men accounted for about 96 percent of all homicide perpetrators worldwide ^[2] and 79% of the victims (see the chart below). The homicide rate is per year per 100,000 inhabitants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homicide_statistics_by_gender

While pointing out disturbing facts about female on female and female on male rape, a Scientific American study reaffirmed that 

Quote

Our findings might be critically viewed as an effort to upend a women’s rights agenda that focuses on the sexual threat posed by men. To the contrary, we argue that male-perpetrated sexual victimization remains a chronic problem, from the schoolyard to the White House. In fact, 96 percent of women who report rape or sexual assault in the NCVS were abused by men. In presenting our findings, we argue that a comprehensive look at sexual victimization, which includes male perpetration and adds female perpetration, is consistent with feminist principles in important ways. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/sexual-victimization-by-women-is-more-common-than-previously-known/

Also, Bluebell provided this...

Quote

Almost 100% of violence that women have suffered historically, has been at the hands of men. Likewise, statistically women are at more risked from male significant others than anyone else. 

If we consider the awful acts committed in war, IMO the vast majority were planned, instigated, and implemented by men. Just in the last two centuries, think of the millions of men, women, and children who have suffered because of political, economic, religious, and racial depravities...instigated by men. Of course women do evil things, too, but at this level?

To me this is empirical evince that men are clearly more inclined to quench the Light of Christ they were born with than women are. Anecdotally, as a missionary in Central America who has heard similar things about their experiences from other missionaries in Latin America, church attendance (not just LDS), is statistically far greater among women than men. In some of my areas at a 10 to 1 margin. At times we were encouraged only to seek out men or fathers to teach.

Does all this indicate men are “less righteous” or “more deprived” than women? At the risk of further verbal chastisement here, I hesitate to make a definitive comment. However, it would appear to me that there is sufficient evidence that they are. What we make of it in the gospel context appears to be controversial. What it has to do with the temple is up to the individual to decide.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, sunstoned said:

As a guy, I have no real idea what it is like to be a women who is in our church to hear that they are blamed for men's thoughts.  I have never believed this, and I find the whole concept repugnant. .... No one is responsible for the thoughts of another.  If someone (man or woman) has lustful thoughts of someone else, then they need to manage it.  Those thoughts are probably a result of our DNA that has been programmed in us to ensure the survival of the species by reproducing. But then again, so is fighting for food. Our society has evolved.  We have food. I don't fight for food, and I am not overly concerned about the survival of our species. So, bringing this conversation into modern time,  what a person chooses to wear on not to were is their business, and no one else needs to be involved. 

Just for the record, I agree totally and never said otherwise.

[mfbukowski]

19 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If we consider the awful acts committed in war, IMO the vast majority were planned, instigated, and implemented by men. Just in the last two centuries, think of the millions of men, women, and children who have suffered because of political, economic, religious, and racial depravities...instigated by men. Of course women do evil things, too, but at this level?

To me this is empirical evince that men are clearly more inclined to quench the Light of Christ they were born with than women are. Anecdotally, as a missionary in Central America who has heard similar things about their experiences from other missionaries in Latin America, church attendance (not just LDS), is statistically far greater among women than men. In some of my areas at a 10 to 1 margin. At times we were encouraged only to seek out men or fathers to teach.

Does all this indicate men are “less righteous” or “more depraved” than women? At the risk of further verbal chastisement here, I hesitate to make a definitive comment. However, it would appear to me that there is sufficient evidence that they are. What we make of it in the gospel context appears to be controversial. What it has to do with the temple is up to the individual to decide.

Well said.  I fixed one typo- "deprived" to "depraved" which you used earlier and was a clear typo.