mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 1 minute ago, Calm said: It ever occurred to you that Eve was chosen for being particularly insightful not only for a human, but a woman? You believe in a literal Eve? What is your evidence when even the "narrator" in the presentation used to say that it was all "strictly figurative insofar as the man and woman are concerned"?
Tacenda Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said: Thanks for asking, Calm. I imagine the legalization piece (based on biology only (12-17X) or the claim of biology only, like in Obergefell) will come in the form of polyamory, with the incorporating laws on the books of states being used for custody, inheritance, alimony, etc. Of course, that type of judicial activism rarely occurs in the direction of traditional/ancient family orders. Immigration, to Europe and the US, will likely see this happen though - and not through Congress. So, here's to hoping. After that legalization (and I'm open to the Leaders of the Church rei-instituting polygamy in countries where it's already legal), re-institution would come from the Prophet, an even bigger lift than legalization. Anyway, since males have 12 to 17 times as much sex drive as women, probably to ensure our species survival, having more than one female partner would ideally: - reduce the conflict married couples have about...frequency - reduce abortions - reduce adultery - reducy divorce rates - increase posterity of children born in the covenant of eternal marriage in the Temple (as the world becomes more and more wicked, seems natural that conversions would keep pace, suggesting other approaches (polygamy) to increasing total number of members of the Church, their children, etc.) - remove the paid off local policiticians, police, etc. in existing polygamous communities, as the practice would no longer be chased "underground" 🤢🤮
Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 5 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: You believe in a literal Eve? What is your evidence when even the "narrator" in the presentation used to say that it was all "strictly figurative insofar as the man and woman are concerned"? See my edited post for more context. Whether Eve is literal or figurative doesn't prevent her character being chosen because she was insightful as a human being. Everything Eve was/is does not have to be uniquely female. Genetics and parental teachings come from both parents. Edited October 27, 2019 by Calm 2
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 28 minutes ago, Calm said: Just as an FYI.... https://www.amazon.com/Women-Who-Kill-Psychopathic-Pleasure/dp/1537687484 This is nonfiction. Women do tend to kill more for selfdefenisive reasons, but there are women who kill for profit and/or pleasure and hate. https://www.insidehook.com/article/crime/notorious-female-serial-killers But those do not get on tv,or dramatized do they? Why? Because men don't get a thrill from them
Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: But those do not get on tv,or dramatized do they? Why? Because men don't get a thrill from them Sure they do. Monster with Charlize Theron (sp?) is an example. I have lost count of how many times I have see the trope of the female serial killer posing as a prostitute to pick up men to kill. Then there is the Buffy the Vampyre Slayer and River of Firefly/Serenity fame...women, teenage girls no less killing men (bad men though) and men enjoying watching them do it, women too. Edited October 27, 2019 by Calm 1
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Calm said: See my edited post for more context. Whether Eve is literal or figurative doesn't prevent her character being chosen because she was insightful as a human being. Everything Eve was/is does not have to be uniquely female. Genetics and parental teachings come from both parents. What edited post? To each his own if that works in your personal story better For me these are virtually Jungian prototypes, Yin and Yang, the lingam and yoni. And yes of course you get genetics from both parents- what does that have to do with it? Edited October 27, 2019 by mfbukowski
Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: What edited post? The one you were replying to.
Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 3 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: And yes of course you get genetics from both parents- what does that have to do with it? Why do men inherit depravity in your view while women spirituality?
Popular Post Peacefully Posted October 27, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 27, 2019 25 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I don't think it IS wrong to point out someone's naivete or they will never think things through. Telling women about their effect on men is not assigning them responsibility- a distinction that seems to have been lost. The only reason I have seen that it is allegedly "wrong" to tell a woman about the depravity of males has been flipped around to imply the woman's responsibility for what men are thinking That's like calling God responsible for evil because of our agency. Absurd reasoning. So what has been discussed ad nauseum is NOT the "reason" it is wrong - it is the reason it is right to tell the naive about what they do not know. So now bring on the mansplaining arguments. I know them all and they are all just based on politically correct garbage. Where did I learn about women's naivete? From women who get it, and there are plenty who are wise enough not to post on these threads. Sorry about all the confusion- welcome to the board. I obviously need to learn to be more peaceful myself, and I keep saying that. But doing and saying are not the same Still no comments back about the temple and why I am wrong about that incidentally. I cannot even imagine a reasonable argument against my position there. God seems to have gone out of his way to show that the Mother of All Living AS the mother of all humanity had a lot more on the ball spiritually than her rather thick husband. But acknowledge that ?? All the Feminists appear to be against the idea of women being better than men. Go figure. And so it is today. All men depraved? Women better than men? Obviously, you haven’t met my husband. He is my kinder and more spiritual half. Also, one of the blessings of the temple is that we can all receive our own unique understanding about what things mean. Your understanding may be very different from mine. Thank you for welcoming me to the board, btw. 8
bluebell Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 8 minutes ago, Peacefully said: All men depraved? Women better than men? Obviously, you haven’t met my husband. He is my kinder and more spiritual half. Also, one of the blessings of the temple is that we can all receive our own unique understanding about what things mean. Your understanding may be very different from mine. Thank you for welcoming me to the board, btw. You've made a really important point. We have been asked not to teach our personal insights and interpretations of temple things to others. Besides the chance that we could be flat wrong and mess people up, like you said, what God has revealed to us is meant for us (and perhaps those we have stewardship over). It is not meant for anyone else. 4
Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 14 minutes ago, bluebell said: You've made a really important point. We have been asked not to teach our personal insights and interpretations of temple things to others. Besides the chance that we could be flat wrong and mess people up, like you said, what God has revealed to us is meant for us (and perhaps those we have stewardship over). It is not meant for anyone else. And there is the problem of insisting a symbol must mean the same to all who encounter it. 3
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 19 minutes ago, Calm said: And there is the problem of insisting a symbol must mean the same to all who encounter it. Where pray tell did I do that? This is simply getting silly.
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 48 minutes ago, Peacefully said: All men depraved? Women better than men? Obviously, you haven’t met my husband. He is my kinder and more spiritual half. Also, one of the blessings of the temple is that we can all receive our own unique understanding about what things mean. Your understanding may be very different from mine. Thank you for welcoming me to the board, btw. We are discussing a story about issues a bit larger, not about real people
Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 Mfb, you are hampered in sharing your evidence for your interpretation of the temple drama by not having the temple text to consult (or rather choosing not to consult them here). However, if this depravity of males and spirituality of females is such a fundamental teaching of the gospel as it appears you believe (unless I misunderstand you), I would think you should be able to point to nontemple texts that teach either the same thing or close to it as our doctrine. Do you have such examples? 1
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 53 minutes ago, Peacefully said: Also, one of the blessings of the temple is that we can all receive our own unique understanding about what things mean. Your understanding may be very different from mine. Of course And what is your interpretation for the extra blessings sisters get, and why it was Eve who understood what Adam could not?
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, Calm said: Mfb, you are hampered in sharing your evidence for your interpretation of the temple drama by not having the temple text to consult (or rather choosing not to consult them here). However, if this depravity of males and spirituality of females is such a fundamental teaching of the gospel as it appears you believe (unless I misunderstand you), I would think you should be able to point to nontemple texts that teach either the same thing or close to it as our doctrine. Do you have such examples? Of course not! Why would we have the answers to Doctrine not typically known taught in the temple if it was published everywhere else? Surely you understand the purpose of initiation into higher orders into a religious faith, and esoteric doctrines? Why even have a temple?
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 1 hour ago, Calm said: See my edited post for more context. I still have no idea what you're talking about. Why make people guess? Provide a link for Pete's sake.
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 Well thanks for the discussion, all. Your arguments are just so strong I can't rebut them anymore. You win!
Popular Post Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Popular Post Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Of course not! Why would we have the answers to Doctrine not typically known taught in the temple if it was published everywhere else? Surely you understand the purpose of initiation into higher orders into a religious faith, and esoteric doctrines? Why even have a temple? Yes, I understand. I just see the gospel as we know it as contradicting your belief in the depravity of men, so if you cannot point to other examples it amounts to those who have been to the temple and who have studied the differences saying "does too” or “does not". ‘Males are depraved’ is hardly an esoteric teaching in my view. My grandma taught my mom "men are beasts"...thankfully imo my mother didn't buy that as it wasn't her experience with the men in her life. It hasn’t been mine either. I see it much more likely the esoteric teachings of the temple are about how and why we are the children of God and what that means for us...and men are depraved just doesn't follow from men are the sons of Perfect Parents, Heavenly Father the Exalted Adam. It honestly seems like it is such a fundamental quality of males if it is so for it to be unknown as doctrine outside the temple is unlikely in my view. I am assuming you don't mean depravity is an eternal characteristic of males, so it would only relate to the fallen world....so why the need for it to be a temple teaching? Especially given the extremely common cultural teaching form existing in many places. More likely in my view is that you are importing your own assumptions into what differences mean. Differences do not have to be inherently one good and one evil/depraved. I don't see the implications of Eve being insightful and Adam more accepting of the status quo supporting the idea that Adam/men are therefore depraved in some way and Eve/women spiritually advanced. I see it more as one provides stability while the other movement, but this role changes depending on need as Mother Eve/women were the providers of stability in the home while Adam/men go off to hunt or forage or explore (movement). However often it was the men building homes (stability) though in some cultures the women do or both. Depending on circumstances, humans adapt and work together functioning because they share characteristics and progressing because they complement each other and therefore the while is greater than sum of the parts. Edited October 27, 2019 by Calm 5
Calm Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 59 minutes ago, mfbukowski said: I still have no idea what you're talking about. Why make people guess? Provide a link for Pete's sake. I figured you understood it was the one you were quoting in that post. http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/72357-womens-dress-and-mens-thoughts/?do=findComment&comment=1209939412
Jake Starkey Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 8 hours ago, mfbukowski said: But those do not get on tv,or dramatized do they? Why? Because men don't get a thrill from them You are wrong. Check on Court TV. https://www.courttv.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwgNXtBRC6ARIsAIPP7RthkzIhQtdTSEdy3-kl6dUNybWbcyVR6DFZv2q-0B1L2-xnpvRBIOsaAvLPEALw_wcB Killer Girlfriend Murder Trial
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 (edited) 7 hours ago, Calm said: Yes, I understand. I just see the gospel as we know it as contradicting your belief in the depravity of men, so if you cannot point to other examples it amounts to those who have been to the temple and who have studied the differences saying "does too” or “does not". ‘Males are depraved’ is hardly an esoteric teaching in my view. My grandma taught my mom "men are beasts"...thankfully imo my mother didn't buy that as it wasn't her experience with the men in her life. It hasn’t been mine either. You say I can't point to other examples, and then you do it for me? One could very well read the response to your complaint in the first paragraph, refuted in the second paragraph. Thanks Edited October 27, 2019 by mfbukowski
mfbukowski Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 42 minutes ago, Jake Starkey said: You are wrong. Check on Court TV. https://www.courttv.com/?gclid=Cj0KCQjwgNXtBRC6ARIsAIPP7RthkzIhQtdTSEdy3-kl6dUNybWbcyVR6DFZv2q-0B1L2-xnpvRBIOsaAvLPEALw_wcB Killer Girlfriend Murder Trial "Was it self defense"? <Facepalm>
Tacenda Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 10 hours ago, Peacefully said: All men depraved? Women better than men? Obviously, you haven’t met my husband. He is my kinder and more spiritual half. Also, one of the blessings of the temple is that we can all receive our own unique understanding about what things mean. Your understanding may be very different from mine. Thank you for welcoming me to the board, btw. I believe men are not as bad as some think. In my old ward there were quite a few that were spiritual giants. Time to put that old notion away. I see it on the outside of my wards as well, men are not less than women in that department at all. Women can be awful, been there, had awful rumors told about me when I moved to a new high school in my youth. I have trust issues to this day with some more stories I won't get into outside of high school and through the years with some women.
Tacenda Posted October 27, 2019 Posted October 27, 2019 9 hours ago, mfbukowski said: Of course And what is your interpretation for the extra blessings sisters get, and why it was Eve who understood what Adam could not? Well outside of Mormonism, in the Christian faith, most believe Adam was the good guy, not Eve. They believe she was in the wrong, and even in the temple she is chastised. And the Bible made women out to be the lower one all throughout because of it. The Bible in Genesis and the LDS take on the temple ceremony contradict, somewhat And it has changed all of mankind so that women are forever targeted over it. Just as the Jews, blacks and homosexuals are, all stemming from the Bible, IMO
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