Women's Dress and Men's Thoughts

[Calm]

24 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

However, it would appear to me that there is sufficient evidence that they are.

Thank you for sharing.  I don't see it as an unreasonable view based on the type of statistics you mention.

I assume you don't buy the Calvinist view of total depravity and you speak of quenching the Light of Christ, so I am wondering if you believe men are born inherently more depraved than women or if this is something that happens to them if they give too much attention to the evils existing in the world?

Do you believe this means that any man if placed in a situation he believes he could have no negative consequences over (even God wouldn't judge him as sinning) would choose to be abusive (that is what he naturally wants to do, but usually controls it) or do you believe that most men find the idea repulsive because they feel it is wrong?

Also, for some reason I was under the impression you had expressed concern when some were speaking of making choices in their lives based on the idea that "all men are potential rapists", meaning that we can't tell who the bad guys are just by looking at them and therefore need to act on the assumption of danger in order to avoid more #metoo incidents of sexual harassment and assault.  There were some posters who disliked that approach believing it created a warped view of all men as predators.  

Am I now correct in thinking you believe it wise for women to approach other men (at least those they don't know well) with such an attitude, being opened to the possibility he intends to harm her?

(I am trying to figure out how you incorporate this belief into other views you might hold as this will help with the nuances)

Edited October 28, 2019 by Calm

[bsjkki]

49 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I am genuinely sorry but the words you used are crucial to understanding the difference between the male temple ceremonies and those for women and which is the crux of the argument.

I cannot discuss the use of those words directly or how they illustrate my point, one must know the temple ceremonies well to understand it.   That is why I am derided for supposedly portraying myself as "smart" which I definitely am not- I am just familiar with the temple ceremonies and obviously erroneously assumed that more folks also were on this LDS board.

I do not live in Utah and have never ever heard anyone speaking the word "whit" in casual conversation.

Apparently that term used in the temple is so well known that it is used casually in Utah but probably nowhere else?

http://whatdoesthatmean.com/dictionary/W/whit.html

I am glad that you feel free every whit from concerns about your husband, that is I believe how the Lord wants women to feel.

...every whit and not one whit bring up quite different meanings in a google search. I was referencing not one whit.  Maybe I read too many science fiction/fantasy novels for such archaic phrases to be running through my head. Every whit does have very specific biblical ties and meanings.

Edited October 28, 2019 by bsjkki

[strappinglad]

I wonder... if  females were born with the bigger ,stronger bodies , would the aggression and violence follow the body ? Is there a qualitative difference in the spirit? 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, bsjkki said:

Maybe I read too many science fiction/fantasy novels for such archaic phrases to be running through my head.

I was trying to figure out where I have heard it most...quite possibly this.  

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

I wonder... if  females were born with the bigger ,stronger bodies , would the aggression and violence follow the body ? Is there a qualitative difference in the spirit? 

It would be interesting to see if stronger women are typically more aggressive, but I think there would be too many complicating factors to tease out that one variable (especially how society might treat the stronger woman).

This is an interesting (to me) article on aggression:

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In this review, we examined the numerous behavioral expressions of aggression that women engage in along with the early developmental, neural, and hormonal correlates. The factors are summarized in Figure Figure1.1. Our review highlights that relative to men’s aggression, we know little of the underpinnings of women’s aggression. Most studies on brain and hormonal mechanisms of aggression included only men, did not examine gender differences, or did so in a post hoc manner, and/or relied on small samples. Thus, there is little opportunity to make robust conclusions about how the processes reviewed here influence aggression in women. By contrast, the behavioral data are clear in that women tend to engage in predominantly indirect aggression, IPV with equal frequency but lesser severity than men, and rarely sexual aggression. Thus, our review is in accord with Richardson (2005), who noted that women are quite capable of aggression. Nonetheless, the limitations of the extant data provide opportunities for future research testing novel hypotheses. We urge more theoretical development to derive a priori gender-specific predictions about the mechanisms underlying aggressive behavior in women....

Our review of neural correlates of aggression also showed no convincing evidence of divergent pathways for men and women. Most of the EEG/ERP, brain stimulation, and fMRI studies that included men and women did not report testing for gender differences or did not find any. The role of hormones in determining women’s aggression was also largely unclear, but worthy of future study as theoretical development in this area is becoming increasingly sophisticated (Mehta and Prasad, 2015; Shamay-Tsoory and Abu-Akel, 2016). Since fear plays a significant role in women’s reaction to provocation and subsequent aggression (Eagly and Steffen, 1986; Bettencourt and Miller, 1996), brain regions involved in fear processing and arousal (e.g., amygdala, hypothalamus) seem like promising regions of interest.

One of the concerns mentioned is female aggression is often indirect and this is harder to study/measure and there is little laboratory studies available.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5942158/

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

Of course, depravity does not only include violence and lust and while these may be the most dramatic, I wonder if other forms have at least as much impact on our lives.  Think of how fraud has ruined lives.  The effect gambling has on our society.

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Depravity of mind refers to the state of mind which is contrary to justice, honesty or morality. Depravity of mind is a condition where there is a deviation or departure from the ordinary standards of honest, good morals, justice, or ethics as to be shocking to the moral sense of the society. Depravity of mind can also be described as an act of baseness, vileness, or depravity in the private and social duties which a person owes to another, or to a community.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depravity-of-mind/

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

To clarify my own position so mfb, if he decides to answer doesn't have to waste effort on things we agree on...

1.  I do believe men and women are different and see this as obvious just from the scientific data on biology, including differences in brains.  Different experiences create opportunities for development of different characteristics and the unique to women experience of pregnancy alone would result in significant differences.  These differences need to be recognized for the physical and emotional and spiritual health and safety of men and women.  Evidence for this:  Nehor linked to an article about the deficiencies in medical treatments for women due to the unfounded assumption one can extrapolate from men to women biologically.  This ended up with women dying unnecessarily because their doctors couldn't recognize that they were having heart attacks as women's key symptoms are generally different than men's.

 

Thanks for laying this out.  I hope this sets the record clear.  There is nothing above on which we could possibly disagree.

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2.  There are also similarities because we share a species, we are all human and we experience many of the same things...hunger for instance.  Recognizing similarities can improve the ability to work together imo, because there is a shared foundation to build on.  In the gospel, the common shared desire to return to our heavenly parents and live as part of an eternal, celestial family drives many men and women to live temple standards and seek temple blessings.

Of course!

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3.  So humanity in my view can be pictured (simplistically ignoring gender biological variations for purpose of discussion) as a Venn diagram of two overlapping circles, one for males and the other for females.  Shared characteristics are symbolized by the intersection of the circles, differences by the unique areas of the circles.  However often differences are not unique, but are variations.  In this thread, an example of this is the difference in sexual arousal patterns.  Both men and women tend to be aroused by visual cues.  What those cues are may vary between sexes as well as individuals, much of this difference is likely culturally based given in some cultures there is nothing inherently provocative in a naked body while other cultures find such extremely provocative in most contexts.  Intensity of responses to visual stimuli may vary as well, though some of the perceived differences may be due to the fact arousal is more easily recognized and measured for most men in comparison to most women.

I would think that there are cultural factors but clearly arousal happens even if such arousal is not welcomed, culturally inappropriate,  or if we want to ignore it or wish it would go away.  What we find arousing is sometimes, at least for me, shocking and "news to me" that my body is doing what it is doing.  Perhaps that is similar to discovering that one is gay, for example, when at first one finds oneself aroused in unexpected ways.  I don't know.  And it is clear that some men are aroused by violence and violent images.  There are whole pornographic industries dedicated to producing images of women being tortured etc.    I of course have no way of knowing if any women are aroused by fantasies of doing violence to men- unless of course one includes men who are aroused by being dominated by women. These are not cultural phenomena, as far as I know, but are found in all cultures, and I believe them to be innate, something one is "born with" as one is born gay PERHAPS and later discovers these tendencies.   We all have our unique temptations to overcome and women's temptations are not men's temptations and vice-versa.

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4.  Assuming differences equate to uniqueness or inflating differences will lead to confusion and unnecessary problems for all.  An example in this thread is the assumption that girls and women are not visually stimulated and therefore there is no real need for men to dress to avoid influencing women/triggering instinctual/learned sexual 'programming' even if the reverse is true (women's visual appearance can have impact on males and trigger sexual arousal).  Thus we have the bishop described as going white in his face when he learns the young women are paying close attention to how the young man look in their 'skins' outfits and the rules for male attire at his ward activities get changed (no more shirtless games for young men).

I never said nor would ever say that "women are not visually stimulated".   That is absurd.  That individual has never been around women at the beach when a guy has a fine "six-pack" or exaggerated hip muscles- or muscles in general.  Are there enough women to support a pornography industry who are sexually aroused by torturing people?   If it is virtually 100% males who support such an industry dedicated to violence against women would that indicate that men can be seen as "more depraved" than women?   I think so.

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5.  For me accountability enters in when agency is present.  Triggered behaviour is not conscious and therefore is not the result of a moral choice.  Accountability kicks in when we have the ability to respond to our triggered behaviour.  Do we look away or otherwise control our environment, external or internal to remove ourselves mentally or physically from the triggering stimuli?  If we do not, but continue to focus on the trigger or add additional triggers by fantasizing or other things, that is lust, a sin for which most of us will be accountable (brain damaged or mentally incapable people may be able not be able to exert self control or recognize a need to do so and if so, they will be judged as unaccountable by God imo).

 

Of course.

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The above seems to me separate from any demonstration that men are depraved while women are spiritual.  Even if men were all visually triggered, this does not demonstrate they all have an innate desire to rape women that is only controlled out of fear of the consequences of being caught, for an extreme example.

This used to be a spiritual discussion when I started it and now it has turned into horrible sociology.  But that appears to be the only direction people want to take it hereabouts.   In a spiritual context one can define "depraved" and "carnal" but now we have switched language games into quasi-scientific and largely spiritually irrelevant "data".   I think the innate desire for men to rape women is simply much stronger than you think and more universal.  And the conclusion for that is not based on data, it is based upon 40 years of Elder's Quorums and High Priest Groups talking about how their wives are what keep them in church and how much more spiritual their wives are than they are, and how one keeps a marriage successful for such spans of time.

My data is accumulated testimony reports by hundreds or perhaps thousands of LDS men in various geographic areas, all of which presenting the same message.   Yes and this is my spiritual interpretation of this 40 years of experience, not some politically correct sociologist bunk.  And then there are years of observing more women at church than men and in temple attendance.   There are the good men NOT of the church who have LDS wives because they know how good they are as human beings.  There are the guys who were drawn to the church by the wonderful women who are members and started attending dances because of the wonderful women and then married and either joined the church or stayed married for decade upon decade.  Then there is my youth attending daily mass with a congregation made up almost exclusively of women.  There are random visits to churches to pray and finding 10 or 12 women doing the same, and no other men.  I have almost felt like an intruder in those situations, entering a convent in which I did not belong.  There are visits to European cathedrals observing what?  Only women lighting candles and praying in the first rows while rude tourists ignore their devotion, and act as if they are in Disneyland.   Where are the men?   

Yes it is spiritually clear to me and I think thousands of at least LDS men who would say that their wives are much more spiritual than they are.

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And men's responses have nothing to say about women's natures, so cannot be used to demonstrate women's greater spirituality.

I do not understand what this means.

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So at this point I see nothing in this thread logically relevant to evidence for the belief men are inherently depraved and women are inherently spiritual outside a claimed temple teaching by mfb (Bernard, you have agreed with mfb that the temple differences are informative, do you also interpret this to teach men are depraved and women are spiritual?  Or do you see it teaching something else?).  Since there are those who are aware of the differences (and I for one do believe the temple does direct us to greater understanding of who we are, including shared and different characteristics of men and women) who do not believe that this teaches or implies or even hints in my case that men are inherently depraved and women are inherently spiritual, I don't see it as possible to establish this as anything but a personal interpretation...and one that is, imo, contrary to gospel teachings that men are children of our heavenly parents.

OF COURSE it is a spiritual interpretation- what isn't?   Even if were "hard"   socio-illogical data  it would be interpretation!!

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Therefore at this point in discussing this with mfb, I am only focusing on how he supports his belief that men are depraved.  I have no problem with women are spiritual as I believe women are.  I also think men that are, though how spirituality is expressed may be different between sexes and individuals.

I support my belief, as I have said before in this thread by personal experiences which you have obviously not had because you are not me.     I have given you a sliver of an inkling.   And frankly I don't expect you to believe what I know to be true according to testimony any more than you expect me to believe what you know through your testimonies.

I hope that helps a little at least, but I have my doubts. 

This is all about the spirit and always has been.

 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think it’s all made up, but that’s beside the point. The point is that many in the church used the temple differences as evidence that men were in charge in the home. Then the temple changed. Apparently the temple ordinance didn’t mean what they thought it did. Who’s to say the same won’t happen to your pet difference? 

Give your views expressed in this thread I can’t imagine why no one would come to you with these concerns. 🤔

That many used it for their own selfish purposes does not mean it was wrong. Many saw it in a very different light and were saddened to see the change.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

No need to compete levels of fear.  I’ll never know yours, you’ll never know mine. 

I do know my husband feels no fear in an elevator alone with another person. 

I left a very late opera rehearsal in downtown Tacoma and found myself alone and locked out of my car with no one in the streets near the theater other than some strange night people. I was afraid.

[Calm]

 

21 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I support my belief, as I have said before in this thread by personal experiences which you have obviously not had because you are not me.     I have given you a sliver of an inkling.   And frankly I don't expect you to believe what I know to be true according to testimony any more than you expect me to believe what you know through your testimonies.

I hope that helps a little at least, but I have my doubts. 

This is all about the spirit and always has been.

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  I highly disagree with it as I don't believe God would have children who had an innate desire to rape, but I can understand why if someone didn't make that assumption they might view it differently.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, ttribe said:

This. This is why you aren't capable of engaging in this discussion.  You keep acting like you are the smartest guy in the room, and you just aren't and you have no business telling women how to think and feel about THEIR EXPERIENCE AS WOMEN.  That should be self-evident, but it seems to be beyond your comprehension.

I understand what you are saying, but if this is the case, why is the opposite not equally egregious....what business do women have telling men how to think and feel about “THEIR EXPERIENCES AS MEN” [your emphasis in the original]?

After all, no women here have ever been a hormone-addled teenaged boy or a young man on the perilous trek over Fool’s Hill, and so they could not possibly understand their experiences and feelings nor have any credibility talking about it. This also should be self-evident, no? 

Moreover, as Saints, we seek unity of purpose, heart, and mind. This kind of “you can’t understand therefore shut up!” attitude is not helpful in achieving that goal..

Edited October 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[mfbukowski]

9 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I left a very late opera rehearsal in downtown Tacoma and found myself alone and locked out of my car with no one in the streets near the theater other than some strange night people. I was afraid.

I was walking down the middle of a deserted street around midnight in the East Village in NYC- in the middle of the street so that lurkers could not jump out from recesses in buildings and rob you.   I was a grad student living in the Village and had just gotten off the subway from my swing-shift job and was walking the few more blocks to home.   It's pretty normal in those circumstances to see people walking in the streets, which are deserted anyway.

  Then I saw the five guys walking toward me, also down the middle of the street.   If they are NOT going to rob you, showing fear might actually induce them to rob you if you seem weak.  Besides there was nowhere to run or hide anyway, so I put on my best swagger and kept on.

But it didn't work.  

They grabbed my arms behind me and put me in a shoulder lock and suddenly there was a switchblade at my throat.

I know what it is to be helpless looking at a knife at your throat.  That is nothing compared to what some women have to endure.

They just wanted my money which I was in no position to stop anyway, and then let me go.

That time I was blessed or "lucky"  But scared s....... so much

 

[Hamba Tuhan]

56 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

These are not cultural phenomena, as far as I know ...

But history and anthropology make it clear that actually they are.

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And then there are years of observing more women at church than men and in temple attendance.

I have lived numerous places where the Church is heavily male. In my mission, we baptised two men for every woman. Most of the part-member families in the wards I served in consisted of a member husband and a non-member wife. In one ward, our ward mission leader and every ward missionary had a non-member wife. And they were all quite nasty (depraved?). Our poor ward mission leader got home from ward council one evening to find his wife fuming. The Church, she said, was worse than a mistress, and he had to make a choice: her or the Church. He chose the Church, and she threw him out of the house.

When I was studying for my master's degree in America, active YSAs in our stake were 75 per cent male. The second-last branch I lived in before moving to where I am now at one point had no adult females in it. It had been like that for years and years, but finally two of the 'stubborn' wives, including the branch president's wife, were baptised. When I moved here, we used to jokingly refer to our YSA Sunday school class as 'first elders quorum', though some weeks we did have one or two females attend.

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Yes it is spiritually clear to me and I think thousands of at least LDS men who would say that their wives are much more spiritual than they are

And I have lived places where it is blindingly clear to everyone, including Church members, that men are far more spiritual than women, the latter being characterised in the local culture as both intellectually and spiritually dull, stubborn, prone to cling to ridiculous superstition, more bound by tradition, inclined to be dishonest and petty, temptresses, etc. You are projecting your personal apprehension of a singular and culturally bound phenomenon onto the rest of the world, and it simply doesn't fit.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Hamba Tuhan

[Bernard Gui]

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

I was walking down the middle of a deserted street around midnight in the East Village in NYC- in the middle of the street so that lurkers could not jump out from recesses in buildings and rob you.   I was a grad student living in the Village and had just gotten off the subway from my swing-shift job and was walking the few more blocks to home.   It's pretty normal in those circumstances to see people walking in the streets, which are deserted anyway.

  Then I saw the five guys walking toward me, also down the middle of the street.   If they are NOT going to rob you, showing fear might actually induce them to rob you if you seem weak.  Besides there was nowhere to run or hide anyway, so I put on my best swagger and kept on.

But it didn't work.  

They grabbed my arms behind me and put me in a shoulder lock and suddenly there was a switchblade at my throat.

I know what it is to be helpless looking at a knife at your throat.  That is nothing compared to what some women have to endure.

They just wanted my money which I was in no position to stop anyway, and then let me go.

That time I was blessed or "lucky"  But scared s....... so much

 

Dang! Knives are no fun without Mr. Colt around.

After another late-night gig, I found myself having to pass through a group of night dwellers on the corner in order to get to my car. Some of them started to make interesting comments, but I said, “Hey! I’m just a musician. I don’t have any money.” They laughed in agreement and let me pass. Fortunately, none of them was smart enough to realize I was carrying about $25,000 worth of instrument and bows in my fiddle case,” That was what I was really afraid of!

The ladies in the orchestra often asked the men to walk with them to their cars for safety purposes. Then we had to walk to cars alone. Oh the hardships of that outdated chivalry ethos!

Edited October 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

It would be interesting to see if stronger women are typically more aggressive, but I think there would be too many complicating factors to tease out that one variable (especially how society might treat the stronger woman).

This is an interesting (to me) article on aggression:

One of the concerns mentioned is female aggression is often indirect and this is harder to study/measure and there is little laboratory studies available.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5942158/

 

Ever watch MMA fights?

[mfbukowski]

18 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  I highly disagree with it as I don't believe God would have children who had an innate desire to rape, but I can understand why if someone didn't make that assumption they might view it differently.

This is what I said and this is what I mean:

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I support my belief, as I have said before in this thread by personal experiences which you have obviously not had because you are not me.

I would suggest it is not wise to tell Heavenly Father what trials he sends or does not send his children, and I would also suggest that your comment COULD be seen as supporting my case for feminine naivete in that you cannot even imagine it possible that God would "have children who had an innate desire to rape,"   We are born carnal and it is said the natural man is an enemy to God- and is to be overcome.

We are here to overcome the world and what happens in our infancy before memory is well established may well appear "innate" but in that context appearance IS the reality for all practical purpose if you must believe that HF would not allow biology to rule, that is a way out.

Hundreds of millions of years of raping other villages for genetic diversity could be how humans survived, and I for one am not going to second-guess the Lord or the temptations others have.  

The famous "Rape of the Sabines" is one noteworthy example that seemed to the participants as perfectly "natural" and was probably an accepted practice  within the overall culture.   It is simply denying factual history to say this sort of thing did not happen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rape_of_the_Sabine_Women

But regardless I am not JUSTIFYING RAPE

We are to overcome these tendencies if we have them.  They are part of the trials of being human.   

We are here to OVERCOME the world

[Bernard Gui]

18 hours ago, Calm said:

So at this point I see nothing in this thread logically relevant to evidence for the belief men are inherently depraved and women are inherently spiritual outside a claimed temple teaching by mfb (Bernard, you have agreed with mfb that the temple differences are informative, do you also interpret this to teach men are depraved and women are spiritual?  

Yes, I have come to a similar understanding of the temple differences as Bukow. No, I don’t agree that this demeans those who don’t share that understanding.

That said, others and I have provided statistical evidence that shows men to generally be be more violent towards each other and toward women than women are towards each other and to men. 

There must be something innate about this tendency in many men. After all, it was a man who led a third of our brothers and sisters in rebellion against Father and swore to make the rest of us miserable, even to the possession of our bodies. On the other hand, it was men who (according to the patriarchy) led the fight against the Dragon, and it was a Man who provided the remedy that will eventually depose the usurper and crush his head.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[rchorse]

1 hour ago, mfbukowski said:

And the conclusion for that is not based on data, it is based upon 40 years of Elder's Quorums and High Priest Groups talking about how their wives are what keep them in church and how much more spiritual their wives are than they are, and how one keeps a marriage successful for such spans of time.

My data is accumulated testimony reports by hundreds or perhaps thousands of LDS men in various geographic areas, all of which presenting the same message.   Yes and this is my spiritual interpretation of this 40 years of experience, not some politically correct sociologist bunk.  And then there are years of observing more women at church than men and in temple attendance.   There are the good men NOT of the church who have LDS wives because they know how good they are as human beings.  There are the guys who were drawn to the church by the wonderful women who are members and started attending dances because of the wonderful women and then married and either joined the church or stayed married for decade upon decade.  Then there is my youth attending daily mass with a congregation made up almost exclusively of women.  There are random visits to churches to pray and finding 10 or 12 women doing the same, and no other men.  I have almost felt like an intruder in those situations, entering a convent in which I did not belong.  There are visits to European cathedrals observing what?  Only women lighting candles and praying in the first rows while rude tourists ignore their devotion, and act as if they are in Disneyland.   Where are the men?   

Yes it is spiritually clear to me and I think thousands of at least LDS men who would say that their wives are much more spiritual than they are.

I have likewise observed the things you mention above, but I come to a different conclusion. I think men like the narrative that men are depraved and women are spiritual because it means they just can't help themselves. We men are then absolved of responsibility. "I'm a man. I can't help it." This is exactly why I find this concept to be so sinister. We get jokes along the lines of if you want it done right, ask the Relief Society, etc. But in reality, what men are really saying is "I'd rather watch TV than be bothered by that."

That's why we men perpetuate this narrative. It excuses our laziness and bad behavior. I have found no doctrine in all the standard works, the temple, conference talks or anywhere else to support the notion that men are incapable of being just as spiritual as women. Rather, I consistently find that Heavenly Father (an exalted man, by the way) expects, desires, and commands men to rise to exactly the same level that women do. I consistently find that the scriptures and prophets tell the men to "rise up and be men" of God.

[Bernard Gui]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

Thank you for sharing.  I don't see it as an unreasonable view based on the type of statistics you mention.

Thanks. I try to be reasonable. That’s hard to do when one is equated with radical Muslim fundamentalists, though. 😉

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I assume you don't buy the Calvinist view of total depravity and you speak of quenching the Light of Christ, so I am wondering if you believe men are born inherently more depraved than women or if this is something that happens to them if they give too much attention to the evils existing in the world?

No. I believe Calvinism is a false version of fore-ordination. The empirical evidence seems to show that men have this tendency more than women. On the other hand, Alma pointed out that many men through their faith and good works were fore-ordained to the Holy Priesthood after the Order of the Son of God in the pre-mortal existence. Combined with the temple ordinance difference, this indicates to me that something profound is going on which may be beyond our understanding at this time. Perhaps it has to do with our lives before we came here. 

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Do you believe this means that any man if placed in a situation he believes he could have no negative consequences over (even God wouldn't judge him as sinning) would choose to be abusive (that is what he naturally wants to do, but usually controls it) or do you believe that most men find the idea repulsive because they feel it is wrong?

That’s David Berlinsky’s question for the atheists he debates...what keeps you from pushing a button that would kill some obscure Chinese peasant whose life was dreadful and meaningless if it would get you everything you ever wanted and you could get away with it? I think even the goofballs who make the cat calls as the ladies walk by really would not want to harm them. Of course that doesn’t excuse they’re oafishness or deny that there really are some bad actors.

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Also, for some reason I was under the impression you had expressed concern when some were speaking of making choices in their lives based on the idea that "all men are potential rapists", meaning that we can't tell who the bad guys are just by looking at them and therefore need to act on the assumption of danger in order to avoid more #metoo incidents of sexual harassment and assault.  There were some posters who disliked that approach believing it created a warped view of all men as predators.  

I don’t recall being engaged in that conversation, but you are the master of digging up past words here, so I would defer to you. I don’t think one can determine intentions simply by looking at people. I don’t thing that all men are predators, but based on my experience, I believe the visual stimulation men experience is much more impactful than that of women, but I’m not a woman, so what do I know?

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Am I now correct in thinking you believe it wise for women to approach other men (at least those they don't know well) with such an attitude, being opened to the possibility he intends to harm her?

(I am trying to figure out how you incorporate this belief into other views you might hold as this will help with the nuances)

No, I wouldn’t go that far; however, prudence is the bedrock of wisdom. 

My favorite Redneck comedy routine is Bill Engvall’s interview with the young man who wants to date his daughter. If he should get any notions of hanky-panky while they are together, “just remember these words....look me in the eye, son.....I have no problem going back to prison.”

Is that nuanced enough?

[Calm]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

There must be something innate about this tendency in many men.

If the rate of violent behaviour in men matches the rate of homosexual behavior, do you also believe homosexual tendencies are innate? (Not a gotcha, just again trying to understand the reasoning)

Edited October 28, 2019 by Calm

[Bernard Gui]

33 minutes ago, rchorse said:

I have likewise observed the things you mention above, but I come to a different conclusion. I think men like the narrative that men are depraved and women are spiritual because it means they just can't help themselves. We men are then absolved of responsibility. "I'm a man. I can't help it." This is exactly why I find this concept to be so sinister. We get jokes along the lines of if you want it done right, ask the Relief Society, etc. But in reality, what men are really saying is "I'd rather watch TV than be bothered by that."

That's why we men perpetuate this narrative. It excuses our laziness and bad behavior. I have found no doctrine in all the standard works, the temple, conference talks or anywhere else to support the notion that men are incapable of being just as spiritual as women. Rather, I consistently find that Heavenly Father (an exalted man, by the way) expects, desires, and commands men to rise to exactly the same level that women do. I consistently find that the scriptures and prophets tell the men to "rise up and be men" of God.

I have to say amen to this. In my 72 years in the Church, I have never heard teachings  that this somehow gets men off the hook.

[Calm]

7 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I think even the goofballs who make the cat calls as the ladies walk by really would not want to harm them.

I don't understand how this works with the belief there is an innate desire to rape women in males.  Could you clarify please.

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I don’t thing that all men are predators, but based on my experience, I believe the visual stimulation men experience is much more impactful than that of women, but I’m not a woman, so what do I know?

I am now confused because I thought you were agreeing with mfb, who seems to be saying at their core all men are predators.

Edited October 28, 2019 by Calm

[mfbukowski]

36 minutes ago, rchorse said:

That's why we men perpetuate this narrative. It excuses our laziness and bad behavior. I have found no doctrine in all the standard works, the temple, conference talks or anywhere else to support the notion that men are incapable of being just as spiritual as women.

Sigh

I am tired of fighting statements attributed to me without any evidence that I ever said them

I really don't have time for this anymore

[Bernard Gui]

16 minutes ago, Calm said:

If the rate of violent behaviour in men matches the rate of homosexual behavior, do you also believe homosexual tendencies are innate?

I have no idea. A very close friend who is gay, for whom I played a major role in his conversion, and who is active LDS just posted a moving auto-biographical memoir about this. He is as perplexed as the rest of us. I don’t know that it is genetic. I don’t know that it was obtained in our pre-mortal life.

Not meaning to be provocative or insensitive, but what if we find other tendencies that we do not currently accept are innate? 

Edited October 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, Calm said:

I don't understand how this works with the belief there is an innate desire to rape women in males.  Could you clarify please.

I am now confused because I thought you were agreeing with mfb, who seems to be saying at their core all men are predators.

Wait. Did I say there is an innate desire to rape women in males? I believe there is a powerful natural urge to procreate that has to be checked and controlled. That’s why strong social barriers have historically been set in place to keep such things civil. Do you think that urge is a proclivity to rape women? I can see how could be considered predatory in some sense. How would you define it?

Edited October 28, 2019 by Bernard Gui