Articustate Posted September 13, 2019 Posted September 13, 2019 14 hours ago, SettingDogStar said: I actually ascribe to the concept that I to will eventually, if I desire to further my exaltation, have to make a sacrifice like Christ’s. Call it blasphemy or whatever, but I believe it’s progression. I don’t even know or understand it it all..but that’s what makes sense to me and I’m trusting in it until I can be taught otherwise. So in this context I would know I’d sacrifice, I would have made the ultimate sacrifice and thus also possess the keys to death and hell. My son would then be able to become in the express image of His father because he would make a sacrifice like He did. Just as my Savior did before me. It’s complicated and I don’t have all the pieces, so I honestly couldn’t just sit down and try to explain it. I just feel and believe that those principles are true. Although I disagree I can respect this and think I understand this line of thinking. For me, whatever is possible it will be because of Christ. His grace. So to me it’s really just about growing in that genuine covenant relationship thru Him, that genuine Love. That is the charge. And also to me it makes sense that exaltation is the expression of that divine unity of love that abides in the Godhead and then also in us as we enter into that loving relationship. We are to be as God is now, out in the world, after receiving him and being born again. I think this is closer to what the scripture verses mean re: being sons of God, joint-heirs of Christ, the Church of the firstborn, etc. By entering into relationship he adopts us as His and now dwells in us and makes us new creatures. We very directly figuratively put him upon us in the temple. It is everywhere. I just hope this esoteric speculation never supersedes the supernal Christ and his preeminent and absolute role in our salvation AND exaltation...and I think there is a danger here, when we get beyond seeking oneness with the Godhead for the sake of pure Love. But please, I’m interested to hear how and if you disagree.
SettingDogStar Posted September 13, 2019 Posted September 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Articustate said: Although I disagree I can respect this and think I understand this line of thinking. For me, whatever is possible it will be because of Christ. His grace. So to me it’s really just about growing in that genuine covenant relationship thru Him, that genuine Love. That is the charge. And also to me it makes sense that exaltation is the expression of that divine unity of love that abides in the Godhead and then also in us as we enter into that loving relationship. We are to be as God is now, out in the world, after receiving him and being born again. I think this is closer to what the scripture verses mean re: being sons of God, joint-heirs of Christ, the Church of the firstborn, etc. By entering into relationship he adopts us as His and now dwells in us and makes us new creatures. We very directly figuratively put him upon us in the temple. It is everywhere. I just hope this esoteric speculation never supersedes the supernal Christ and his preeminent and absolute role in our salvation AND exaltation...and I think there is a danger here, when we get beyond seeking oneness with the Godhead for the sake of pure Love. But please, I’m interested to hear how and if you disagree. I think the main difference is that we interpret certain verses (and sermons by Joseph Smith) differently. I take them literally (but I like your interpretation a lot!!) to mean that I will be God, through the power given to me by Christ, and eventually get to (if I’d like) to walk in His shoes.
Articustate Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 8 hours ago, SettingDogStar said: I think the main difference is that we interpret certain verses (and sermons by Joseph Smith) differently. I take them literally (but I like your interpretation a lot!!) to mean that I will be God, through the power given to me by Christ, and eventually get to (if I’d like) to walk in His shoes. I guess what I'm trying to say is that whatever exaltation looks like, it is at least this Oneness -- if not primarily and necessarily so. And to the extent we achieve it is to the extent we receive His Light to transform us, and only this because we have died to the self. And it will be in the House of Israel. His Kingdom. Not yours. Ever. His (the Father's) Plan. Not yours. Ever. You do not supplant Christ. Ever. You do not save yourself. You do not exalt yourself. It is not about you. It is about Jesus. It is about dying to the self and selfishness so that he can take root. And it is not just about Jesus because he lets you fly off to a part of the universe God hasn’t quite gotten to yet and organize it (like the nebula someone earlier on the thread was lusting over). God is God. He does not pray/glorify some deity one rung ahead of him, who was in his previous life an accountant...who worships/glorifies the guy ahead of him who happened to be a mailman. I find this sort of God-lust, to any extent it exists -- repugnant and fundamentally unChristian. The hubris to think the universe exists so you can replace God is exactly the sort of thinking that other Christians use to claim we are not. I think sometimes our further light and knowledge puts us in danger of going beyond the mark -- the mark being, quite obviously, Jesus the Christ. Perhaps we should focus on Him and becoming like Him in character and not what we think we'll have if we do enough stuff. And to any extent this sort of future of Godhood -- capital G -- is real, those thinking it's about them and focused on attaining it will likely be sorely disappointed in how God sees things.
let’s roll Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 10 hours ago, Articustate said: Although I disagree I can respect this and think I understand this line of thinking. For me, whatever is possible it will be because of Christ. His grace. So to me it’s really just about growing in that genuine covenant relationship thru Him, that genuine Love. That is the charge. And also to me it makes sense that exaltation is the expression of that divine unity of love that abides in the Godhead and then also in us as we enter into that loving relationship. We are to be as God is now, out in the world, after receiving him and being born again. I think this is closer to what the scripture verses mean re: being sons of God, joint-heirs of Christ, the Church of the firstborn, etc. By entering into relationship he adopts us as His and now dwells in us and makes us new creatures. We very directly figuratively put him upon us in the temple. It is everywhere. I just hope this esoteric speculation never supersedes the supernal Christ and his preeminent and absolute role in our salvation AND exaltation...and I think there is a danger here, when we get beyond seeking oneness with the Godhead for the sake of pure Love. But please, I’m interested to hear how and if you disagree. I’ve often used the phrase “joining Him in His work” to characterize how I understand exaltation. I certainly have never believed we are to replace or supersede Him. 2
Damien the Leper Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 On 9/7/2019 at 9:19 PM, SettingDogStar said: To each his own (and i think I understand the reason for his choice of words) but to me it’s better to be burned telling the whole truth then to be caught telling a half-truth or lie. Not to say he did that, but he was more ambiguous then I think was needed. Absolutely no disrespect intended. Please use the words then and than appropriately. The misuse is like letting @Scott Lloyd squirt lemon juice in my eyes. 1
Damien the Leper Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 On 9/8/2019 at 1:19 PM, Robert F. Smith said: It looks easy because I have been working on this stuff for decades. A library indeed. I hate (not really) you. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 1 hour ago, let’s roll said: I’ve often used the phrase “joining Him in His work” to characterize how I understand exaltation. I certainly have never believed we are to replace or supersede Him. I like that a lot! 1
JLHPROF Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Articustate said: God is God. He does not pray/glorify some deity one rung ahead of him, who was in his previous life an accountant...who worships/glorifies the guy ahead of him who happened to be a mailman. I completely disagree. 100%. It is the most glorious revelation ever given, to know God and to know he was once a mortal man on an earth and that we have the potential to become as he is. That is in the end what Mormonism has that all other Christian religions don't. Aside from priesthood authority and the ordinances, it is the single most important doctrine to come out of the restoration.
SettingDogStar Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 7 hours ago, Articustate said: I guess what I'm trying to say is that whatever exaltation looks like, it is at least this Oneness -- if not primarily and necessarily so. And to the extent we achieve it is to the extent we receive His Light to transform us, and only this because we have died to the self. And it will be in the House of Israel. His Kingdom. Not yours. Ever. His (the Father's) Plan. Not yours. Ever. You do not supplant Christ. Ever. You do not save yourself. You do not exalt yourself. It is not about you. It is about Jesus. It is about dying to the self and selfishness so that he can take root. And it is not just about Jesus because he lets you fly off to a part of the universe God hasn’t quite gotten to yet and organize it (like the nebula someone earlier on the thread was lusting over). God is God. He does not pray/glorify some deity one rung ahead of him, who was in his previous life an accountant...who worships/glorifies the guy ahead of him who happened to be a mailman. I find this sort of God-lust, to any extent it exists -- repugnant and fundamentally unChristian. The hubris to think the universe exists so you can replace God is exactly the sort of thinking that other Christians use to claim we are not. I think sometimes our further light and knowledge puts us in danger of going beyond the mark -- the mark being, quite obviously, Jesus the Christ. Perhaps we should focus on Him and becoming like Him in character and not what we think we'll have if we do enough stuff. And to any extent this sort of future of Godhood -- capital G -- is real, those thinking it's about them and focused on attaining it will likely be sorely disappointed in how God sees things. It is most assuredly about Jesus! I can’t do any of the work of my own accord. His is the only way and power whereby I can come into a fullness of the Father in the next life. I also don’t believe anyone will replace God or stand in His role as it is now. However, there will be those who become like Him. They will perform works similar to His, have children, and perform the work of salvation among them in some form or another (however that works out). I also don’t believe God worships or gains glory from another being or Savior. I’m believe (but don’t know) that God has a father like we do, but God has become independent in His glory, power, and abilities. He doesn’t need another being to grant Him these things because He is GOD. But there are others like Him. It’s not a hierarchy necessarily (again, I don’t know) but it is a family. 1
SettingDogStar Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 6 hours ago, Valentinus said: Absolutely no disrespect intended. Please use the words then and than appropriately. The misuse is like letting @Scott Lloyd squirt lemon juice in my eyes. My bad, I’m on my phone at work most of the time and I’m not paying attention haha
Damien the Leper Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 4 hours ago, SettingDogStar said: My bad, I’m on my phone at work most of the time and I’m not paying attention haha No worries.
RevTestament Posted September 14, 2019 Posted September 14, 2019 21 hours ago, Articustate said: Although I disagree I can respect this and think I understand this line of thinking. For me, whatever is possible it will be because of Christ. His grace. So to me it’s really just about growing in that genuine covenant relationship thru Him, that genuine Love. That is the charge. And also to me it makes sense that exaltation is the expression of that divine unity of love that abides in the Godhead and then also in us as we enter into that loving relationship. We are to be as God is now, out in the world, after receiving him and being born again. I think this is closer to what the scripture verses mean re: being sons of God, joint-heirs of Christ, the Church of the firstborn, etc. By entering into relationship he adopts us as His and now dwells in us and makes us new creatures. We very directly figuratively put him upon us in the temple. It is everywhere. I just hope this esoteric speculation never supersedes the supernal Christ and his preeminent and absolute role in our salvation AND exaltation...and I think there is a danger here, when we get beyond seeking oneness with the Godhead for the sake of pure Love. But please, I’m interested to hear how and if you disagree. Doctrine and Covenants 88:60-61 60 Every man in his own aorder, until his hour was finished, even according as his lord had commanded him, that his lord might be glorified in him, and he in his lord, that they all might be glorified. John 16: 13 Howbeit when he, the aSpirit of truth, is come, he will bguide you into all ctruth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will dshew you things to come. 14 He shall aglorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you. 15 All athings that the bFather hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.
theplains Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 On 9/13/2019 at 2:24 AM, InCognitus said: Do you believe God is the "God of gods", as the Bible says? Or should it be "god of gods", or "God of Gods"? You tell me. The use of gods in the scripture are either man made gods or rulers (as in the case of the devil being called a god of this world or Moses being made a god to Pharaoh). Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
theplains Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 On 9/12/2019 at 12:02 AM, Robert F. Smith said: They apparently constitute the Heavenly Host, but are the offspring of God the Father. The gods (the offspring of God) in the Divine Council/Assembly of some past event that you referred to before ... how do they compare to those who are said to become gods in the future (D&C 132:20)? A god becomes a god? Thanks, Jim
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 1 hour ago, theplains said: The gods (the offspring of God) in the Divine Council/Assembly of some past event that you referred to before ... how do they compare to those who are said to become gods in the future (D&C 132:20)? A god becomes a god?..................... There is a continuous stream of events, not just "some past event" at the Divine Council in Heaven, and the offspring of God the Father are in a constant state of development, requiring that they make crucial choices. Jesus, Satan, and others (such as Michael the Archangel) are among those of God's offspring. All proceed through stages of apotheosis, the most important of which is Earthlife as an ultimate test of faith. Even though they are exceeded by the levels of glory offered at the Last Judgment, the interim principalities and powers of the offspring of God are real (2 Cor 11:14, Philipp 2:9-10, Jude 1:9, Rev 12:9). Satan, for example, is god of this world (Jn 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4, “god of this age”; Eph 2:2), even though he is a liar (Jn 8:44). He is allowed great power by God the Father in testing Job, as well as in testing any others who wish to follow his evil ways. He and Jesus, in fact, embody the doctrine of the Two Ways which forces all of us to choose one way or the other. Jesus himself is tested by Satan, and that test was real. It is all part of the great Plan of Salvation. 1
let’s roll Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: There is a continuous stream of events, not just "some past event" at the Divine Council in Heaven, and the offspring of God the Father are in a constant state of development, requiring that they make crucial choices. Jesus, Satan, and others (such as Michael the Archangel) are among those of God's offspring. All proceed through stages of apotheosis, the most important of which is Earthlife as an ultimate test of faith. Even though they are exceeded by the levels of glory offered at the Last Judgment, the interim principalities and powers of the offspring of God are real (2 Cor 11:14, Philipp 2:9-10, Jude 1:9, Rev 12:9). Satan, for example, is god of this world (Jn 12:31, 2 Cor 4:4, “god of this age”; Eph 2:2), even though he is a liar (Jn 8:44). He is allowed great power by God the Father in testing Job, as well as in testing any others who wish to follow his evil ways. He and Jesus, in fact, embody the doctrine of the Two Ways which forces all of us to choose one way or the other. Jesus himself is tested by Satan, and that test was real. It is all part of the great Plan of Salvation. Earth life is the most important stage for those of us with agency in this life, but not for the billions who come to this earth only to receive a mortal body, having qualified for exaltation in our premortal life.
InCognitus Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 2 hours ago, theplains said: The use of gods in the scripture are either man made gods or rulers (as in the case of the devil being called a god of this world or Moses being made a god to Pharaoh) The verse reads: "For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords" (Deu 10:17). If these are just man made false gods and idols, then the verse doesn’t make any logical or theological sense. Think about what that would really mean. Would you be comfortable saying that God is the God of Baal, Dagon, Ashtoreth, Chemosh, Milcom, Zeus or Diana? That makes it sound like God is nothing more than a fictional god who leads all the other fictional gods. These “gods” don’t even exist. According to Paul, idols are "nothing". Wouldn't this mean that God is just the God of nothing? But this is a Hebrew superlative, just like the other example in this verse of "Lord of lords", or elsewhere, King of kings, Holy of Holies, Heaven of heavens, Sabbath of sabbaths, or song of songs. This type of Hebrew superlative emphasizes the greatness of the first over the second, using the plural of the same word following. So you may be on the right track in suggesting that God is the Ruler of rulers (as is expressed in "Lord of lords" or "King of kings"), but it would be wrong to suppose that the classifications of the two are different except in their comparative greatness of the first over the second. To be God is to be the ultimate ruler. But in this case the expression is "God of gods" (elohi ha elohim). These "gods" of necessity must exist in reality for this to be a logical statement, don't you think? 2 hours ago, theplains said: Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. Have you ever stopped to think about what Isaiah 43:10 really means in context? What does it mean for God to say "before me" or "after me" in this verse? Isn't God eternal, without beginning or end? That being the case, then why would he say "before me" or "after me"? And who are his "witnesses"? The context makes it clear, the LORD is speaking to Israel: "I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, that I am God." (verse 12). Obviously the "before" and "after" has to do with his declaration to Israel: He is the God of Israel (he is OUR God) and there is none other that is the God of Israel. There is none equal to Him. Do you think this means that God is saying that no other gods exist? Obviously not, or God would not also be declared as the "God of gods". As the context shows, he is telling us that there is no other "GOD" (in the supreme sense) who is our God. As Paul says in Eph 4:6, there is but "One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." But just in case you are still thinking Isaiah 43:10 is saying that there are no other "gods", you should also consider verse 11: "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." Does this mean nobody else can be a savior at all, or is it that nobody else can be a savior in the context of salvation of all of Israel? If you are leaning toward the former, take Obadiah 1:21 into consideration first please.
Robert F. Smith Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 1 hour ago, let’s roll said: Earth life is the most important stage for those of us with agency in this life, but not for the billions who come to this earth only to receive a mortal body, having qualified for exaltation in our premortal life. You are speaking of those who die before the age of accountability, I take it?
Stargazer Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 On 9/13/2019 at 9:59 PM, Valentinus said: Absolutely no disrespect intended. Please use the words then and than appropriately. The misuse is like letting @Scott Lloyd squirt lemon juice in my eyes. This reminds of that great musician, Al Yankovic's "Word Crimes": 3
let’s roll Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 12 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: You are speaking of those who die before the age of accountability, I take it? Yes, as well as those who live beyond the age of accountability, whose mental faculties prevent them from becoming accountable. Billions of our brothers and sisters are in those categories. 1
Durangout Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 On 9/11/2019 at 10:19 AM, Ahab said: Yes, I believe so, too. It just won't be "our own" in the sense that it will be only ours and ours alone, individually, because everything we will have will also be what our Father in heaven has, too. And what Jesus also has. With the "we" in this case being everyone who is exalted and given all of the same blessings that our Father in heaven has. And not just from this planet but from everywhere else in the universe where our kind of being exists now. Regardless of how many persons that is. Everyone who is exalted will share in all that is, wherever it is, everywhere, both now and into the future forever. FINALLY...someone understands what the law of consecration REALLY means. How we are to live it today / in the millennium is simply a shadow or type of what you have correctly laid out.
SettingDogStar Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Durangout said: FINALLY...someone understands what the law of consecration REALLY means. How we are to live it today / in the millennium is simply a shadow or type of what you have correctly laid out. Except in the Law of Consecration you did, in fact, have personal possessions and property. You would deed all you own to the bishop and then you would be given whatever you needed back. The surplus would then be given to the poor or newly converted. Whatever property you were given was deeded back to you, as your property, with a promise that any surplus you made after that would be given to the Warehouse. The Order Enoch, as laid out, still included personal ownership, property, possessions, and other things. It was not an “everything is everyone else’s” law. edit; there was a organization at the time of Joseph Smith called “The Family”, I believe, that attempted the “no ownership” principle. It radically fell apart and many joined the Church. Edited September 17, 2019 by SettingDogStar 1
Durangout Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 On 9/13/2019 at 9:46 PM, Articustate said: I guess what I'm trying to say is that whatever exaltation looks like, it is at least this Oneness -- if not primarily and necessarily so. And to the extent we achieve it is to the extent we receive His Light to transform us, and only this because we have died to the self. And it will be in the House of Israel. His Kingdom. Not yours. Ever. His (the Father's) Plan. Not yours. Ever. You do not supplant Christ. Ever. You do not save yourself. You do not exalt yourself. It is not about you. It is about Jesus. It is about dying to the self and selfishness so that he can take root. And it is not just about Jesus because he lets you fly off to a part of the universe God hasn’t quite gotten to yet and organize it (like the nebula someone earlier on the thread was lusting over). God is God. He does not pray/glorify some deity one rung ahead of him, who was in his previous life an accountant...who worships/glorifies the guy ahead of him who happened to be a mailman. I find this sort of God-lust, to any extent it exists -- repugnant and fundamentally unChristian. The hubris to think the universe exists so you can replace God is exactly the sort of thinking that other Christians use to claim we are not. I think sometimes our further light and knowledge puts us in danger of going beyond the mark -- the mark being, quite obviously, Jesus the Christ. Perhaps we should focus on Him and becoming like Him in character and not what we think we'll have if we do enough stuff. And to any extent this sort of future of Godhood -- capital G -- is real, those thinking it's about them and focused on attaining it will likely be sorely disappointed in how God sees things. Again another wonderful expression of the law of consecration.
InCognitus Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Durangout said: On 9/11/2019 at 9:19 AM, Ahab said: Yes, I believe so, too. It just won't be "our own" in the sense that it will be only ours and ours alone, individually, because everything we will have will also be what our Father in heaven has, too. And what Jesus also has. With the "we" in this case being everyone who is exalted and given all of the same blessings that our Father in heaven has. And not just from this planet but from everywhere else in the universe where our kind of being exists now. Regardless of how many persons that is. Everyone who is exalted will share in all that is, wherever it is, everywhere, both now and into the future forever. FINALLY...someone understands what the law of consecration REALLY means. How we are to live it today / in the millennium is simply a shadow or type of what you have correctly laid out. I meant to comment on this previously, but that's how I've understood the ruling "worlds" statements too, nobody gets their OWN planet. We inherit "all things", and share in what belongs to Heavenly Father.
Ahab Posted September 17, 2019 Posted September 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, SettingDogStar said: Except in the Law of Consecration you did, in fact, have personal possessions and property. You would deed all you own to the bishop and then you would be given whatever you needed back. The surplus would then be given to the poor or newly converted. Whatever property you were given was deeded back to you, as your property, with a promise that any surplus you made after that would be given to the Warehouse. The Order Enoch, as laid out, still included personal ownership, property, possessions, and other things. It was not an “everything is everyone else’s” law. I'm not sure about that. And I'm not sure that they lived it correctly, as they should have lived it. But even if they did it would still have been only a "shadow" or taste of how things will be when we inherit everything from our Father in heaven. We will actually own everything there is, just as our Father does, then. It just won't be "only" ours and nobody else's, because our Father will still retain ownership of everything, too. I think of it as something like the type of inheritance we sometimes receive from our mortal fathers (and mothers) when they pass on to the other side of the veil, when they leave everything they have to their children, except that in this case they would still retain ownership of everything they had, and still be alive, while their children also enjoy everything their parents gave them. Our Father in heaven will certainly still be alive when those who are exalted receive everything they are going to receive from him, and it would be silly to think that his kingdom would diminish, that he would have less and less of his own things, as he gave everything he has to his exalted children. So this is the only way it would ever make any sense. The other option would be to start out in our new exalted lives with no possessions at all and then have to start working on creating our own things, receiving nothing at all from our Father in heaven, otherwise he would have to give away everything he had, little by little, to each of his exalted children until he had nothing of his own left at all.
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