BYU police of Joseph Bishop interview tape released

[jpv]

56 minutes ago, Exiled said:

You want to say Bishop has dementia but no doctor has given an opinion as to this or to his competency to testify in court or in a deposition.  Perhaps he can't keep his story straight and/or is mixing up his victims, but he is competent.  Also, Denson claimed she is flat chested, or at least was when in the MTC. So, the breast incident is probably another victim.

I believe McKenna did say this was another victims in an interview before.

[jpv]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

He admits to an impossible confession in the first interview (telling Elder Wells about molesting Denson years before he met her), he didn't mention this confession in the Denson interview, stated no one had talked to him about Denson's abuse, and he can't remember the bishop's name and no other details were given in the police interview as seen so far.

My understanding of the confession to Elder Wells had always been of his sexual misconduct in South America and/or Florida, not of anything at the MTC (those and a confession, we're not seeded by McKenna in the discussion).

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

 Perhaps he can't keep his story straight and/or is mixing up his victims, but he is competent

I think he has dementia to some extent because of the random things he says even prior to Denson telling him who she is (there is no need in the context of the interviewer by if mission presidents to go into the cheating ways of his second wife’s first husband and how that led to divorce for him, for example).  It is his relatively calm receipt of who she is along with her telling him she had threatened to kill him. It is his “you should be angry with me, but I don’t remember what I am now apologizing for”. Would any competent person admit to molesting someone solely on their say-so?  He agrees with her and then contradicts her.

Lots of people are telling me my mom is doing great, is competent, etc.  except for the three people who interact with her most and have experience with others who had dementia. If one is highly intelligent like my mom was, they can be very good at covering it. You can usually only tell by tracking her over days and having multiple conversations with her. 

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, jpv said:

I believe McKenna did say this was another victims in an interview before.

Yes, she said this as soon as Bishop’s interview was made public. 

[Calm]

1 hour ago, jpv said:

My understanding of the confession to Elder Wells had always been of his sexual misconduct in South America and/or Florida, not of anything at the MTC (those and a confession, we're not seeded by McKenna in the discussion).

Of course, because the confession was when he was MP in Argentina.  It couldn’t be Denson. 

But you can’t call it sexual misconduct because he doesn’t give any details  of what he was confessing.

And he gets mixed up and is so eager to show his contrition to her he tells her twice he confessed about her to Wells. First time she missed it, second she caught it and corrected him. 

That is a relative easy thing for him to keep straight, whether he went to the MTC first or Argentina. But he screws up twice. 

----

I have always thought the guy is guilty of something, he volunteers too much about the wrong kind of things in the first interview, but given the vagueness what he himself alone is describing (not what Denson says and he agrees to) could be anything from fantasizing (probably about breasts), to using porn, to what he confesses to with the police, or to what Denson accuses him of...rape.  The only details he shares that are abusive in the first interview is the frisky backrub, which is all he initially describes it as.  According to consig, but not yet revealed in clips shared, he admits the back rub went all the way down her back to her buttocks to the police.  I was thinking more likely it went to her front.

I think he is likely to be more coherent in the police interview.  He looks pretty comfortable, does not sound stressed, no one is screaming or swearing at him or threatening to kill him, and it has been several more days, I believe since his surgery, so if drugs affected him (and we got warnings for my dad and mom about painkillers affecting the elderly with greater confusion, dizziness after their surgeries including when they were in their 70s).  Got to check that timing on how long after surgery it was, three days iirc for the first interview.  Checked:  December 2 for the first interview, December 5 for the second.  The two clips of the second are not enough to compare strength of voice because that varied over time in Denson's interview and could have with the police and so probably should compare weakest with weakest and strongest with strongest/most animated, but if consistent with what was shared, he sounded stronger to me for the police interview and given a friendlier environment I would assume he was more at ease and therefore accurate.  Unless a doctor confirms he has significant dementia, I am assuming it is pretty mild, basic facts are probably accurate if telling the truth (the more dramatic unnecessary ones may have been added because he thinks it adds credibility, but that is often where mild dementia sufferers mess up in my experience), but he is also at that stage capable of intelligently lying.

(added bit:  wish the police interview was more head on, one side of his face seems to be drooping and he talks more out of one side of his mouth. But that could just be the angle.  He doesn't seem to have any more wrinkles than the online photo of him when older which doesn't show any drooping I can see, so likely just coming from the side and up is the problem).

I see little reason to assume an abuser who is fluent in shifting blame is telling the truth in much of anything when he knows he can't be held legally responsible for what he did because it's too long ago (and his son being a lawyer and with him, I have little doubt that is what the son told him...not saying he told him to lie, but was reassuring his dad he wouldn't be going to jail).

That was an efficient way to pass the time today.  Now on to more mind relaxing things to see if I can manage to pass out before the sun comes up.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Calm

[provoman]

7 hours ago, Exiled said:

You want to say Bishop has dementia but no doctor has given an opinion as to this or to his competency to testify in court or in a deposition.  Perhaps he can't keep his story straight and/or is mixing up his victims, but he is competent.  Also, Denson claimed she is flat chested, or at least was when in the MTC. So, the breast incident is probably another victim.

This interview does not appear to be some unknown information to Mckenna, and I would say her attorneys at the time. Mckenna has claimed she heard the interview and knew what was on it. 

A Reddit user Mckenna-Denson posted "You haven’t heard the or read the BYU PD interviews with Joseph Bishop."  The context is the mckenna poster illustrating someones ignorance while promoting her own extensive knowledge.

In my opinion, the sltrib article/videos provided are selective to not provide verifiable context. But I think Vernon was fully aware of the content of the video/audio of the interview.

[Exiled]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

I think he has dementia to some extent because of the random things he says even prior to Denson telling him who she is (there is no need in the context of the interviewer by if mission presidents to go into the cheating ways of his second wife’s first husband and how that led to divorce for him, for example).  It is his relatively calm receipt of who she is along with her telling him she had threatened to kill him. It is his “you should be angry with me, but I don’t remember what I am now apologizing for”. Would any competent person admit to molesting someone solely on their say-so?  He agrees with her and then contradicts her.

Lots of people are telling me my mom is doing great, is competent, etc.  except for the three people who interact with her most and have experience with others who had dementia. If one is highly intelligent like my mom was, they can be very good at covering it. You can usually only tell by tracking her over days and having multiple conversations with her. 

Why hasn't his supposed dementia been an issue in the case?  I guess you can choose to believe in what you want but those involved haven't made this an issue.

[clarkgoble]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I have never been in the MTC, is there a lower floor?  I am wondering if confusion comes from it being bottom floor, but not completely underground as iirc there is a slope there.

In the main building there was a lower floor which was where the bookstore and washing machines were. I believe they plan on tearing down that building this year.

Part of the problem is that it's completely unclear what Bishop would have told his superior. Given his character, which you've pointed out, it's not at all clear he'd have been honest. That's the problem with all these accounts of some sexual predator or something near to one when they confess and go on. The presumption is that the leader they confess to knows everything whereas in practice most of them are lying or downplaying what happened. There's always the assumption that the leader is making a bad irresponsible judgment without it being at all clear what data they are even going on. That's not to say leaders don't make bad judgments. I think it clear a presumption of innocence is given to people they trust, when probably that shouldn't happen. But on the other hand I rather suspect leaders get accused of lots of ridiculous stuff by people angry and the church or simply unbalanced. (Remember the accusations of gay prostitutes against Hinkley?) It's that situation where figuring out what is or isn't worth investigating further that isn't always easy. Again not to deny people don't make bad mistakes. However in this case I believe all the other involved people are dead so we likely will never know.

2 hours ago, Exiled said:

Why hasn't his supposed dementia been an issue in the case?  I guess you can choose to believe in what you want but those involved haven't made this an issue.

Do we know what has been argued in case? Were the hearings open? I believe the rate of some sort of dementia for people his age is rather high. I've heard 1 in 3. That said, if it came to trial I bet it would come up. But as others noted it would require medical verification to be relevant.

Edited June 17, 2019 by clarkgoble

[ALarson]

12 hours ago, Exiled said:

You want to say Bishop has dementia but no doctor has given an opinion as to this or to his competency to testify in court or in a deposition.  Perhaps he can't keep his story straight and/or is mixing up his victims, but he is competent.  Also, Denson claimed she is flat chested, or at least was when in the MTC. So, the breast incident is probably another victim.

Well, this case is a mess (IMO) and I don't trust Bishop and I don't trust Denson (especially as more is coming to light regarding her....but I do believe she's a victim of past sexual abuse).

What would help bring some clarity is if another victim would speak out (and I believe there was one that came forward, iirc).  But if that doesn't happen, we are left with Bishop's account and Denson's account....I don't trust either one.  I do think it appears though that at least some of Bishop's church leaders knew he had issues earlier on and I do wonder about the wisdom of putting him in (or leaving him in) the position of MTC president.  Just my impression....

Edited June 17, 2019 by ALarson

[Hagoth]

18 hours ago, readstoomuch said:

It sounds like it was pretty common knowledge that Corbin Volluz is RadioFreeMormon.

I don't check in much, but since my normal homebase is down for repairs, I thought I'd stop by.  Concerning some aspects of this thread, whether or not the above quote is true, as far as I know neither Brother Volluz nor Brother RFM have publicly made that connection, and I have a pretty good idea that neither of those identities would appreciate people doxing them online. Also, it's listed as one of the banned behaviors of this board: "• Posting personal or identifying information about others"

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Exiled said:

Why hasn't his supposed dementia been an issue in the case? 

What had been the benefit of making it an issue in the case?  

The suit against Bishop was dismissed.  The family has no need to drag him into the spotlight again.

So what benefit to the Church since he has given conflicting testimony and they only need to point to that at this point?

It is not like the Church has been offering anything but minimal comments since it became public.  They haven’t been giving a running commentary like Denson  

———

Perhaps no one has said anything because  if your loved one has mild dementia and you know it is only going to get worse and you have an ounce of compassion in you, there is a pretty good chance you never mention it where they can hear that word and you just keep down playing the significance of confusion and memory loss to them because they are terrified that they are losing their mind and will end locked up in a warehouse (as my mom describes it). 

But removing any emotional reason to downplay his issues, Bishop’s family and lawyer must know that there is no benefit to making anymore of a deal of his physical or mental health than they have already.  

The Church has no right to talk about Bishop’s mental state without permission and no real need to prior to the public release of this confession imo.  They could have easily waited until trial and made a big impact on jurors by sharing the info in court when they needed to discredit his testimony.

Also if dementia gets pushed as a defense, then anything Bishop says useful for that defense is diminished in value. 

Finally Church lawyers and Bishop’s lawyers were fully aware of the train wreck of a witness Denson is when it comes to her credibility. All they had to do was wait. 

There is little public benefit pushing dementia in the general public. Bishop is, IMO, branded as a predator and pushing dementia to the public is as likely to convince people he is trying to avoid responsibility as it will raise sympathy.

Raising it publicly also defeats being able to depend on his specific denial of being a rapist or not discussing it with Asay or anyone else.  Makes better legal sense to hold it in reserve, imo.  The Church’s liability is not diminished if he is incompetent, only Bishop benefits right now from playing that card legally and he has no legal problems given the case against was dismissed  

And to be clear having dementia doesn’t mean someone is incompetent or memories are completely unreliable. Mild dementia may have minimal impact on a person. Stress can certainly increase that impact, but there are also ways to diminish the impact.  I am not saying Bishop doesn’t know what he is talking about in most things, there are somethings I think are likely accurate. 

——

Of course, if you assume he is fully competent, why would you also assume he is telling the truth? Blaming others removes his responsibility and can only make him look better  and he has a record of doing just that in the transcript  

If Denson and the other alleged victims are telling the truth about the abuse (at this point I see no reason to question other victims’ reliability btw), this guy is an opportunistic rapist, an abuser who never apologized to his victims until he was placed in a position where it was better to do so (no dementia means he knew Denson had threatened to kill him before and that she was bragging about that at the interview).  He lied to his leaders and likely his family.  Why not lie to police?  He would know no one could prove a negative, that he hadn’t confessed. Saying he confessed makes him look good if he got surprised or felt it safer to admit he molested women  

I find it interesting that many critics are willing to think the worse of Bishop in every way until it comes to something that supports their belief and then he is trustworthy. 

[Robert F. Smith]

21 hours ago, Calm said:

Not sure how this helps Denson's lawsuit.  The only part left is her claim that the Church leadership knew prior to Bishop being called as MTC President that he was a predator and withheld this info so that she could not make a decision to protect herself.  For her lawsuit it is only evidence that the Church leaders can ignore predatory behaviour, not that they did in her case.

If it can be shown in court that the LDS Church did not exercise due diligence, and that this is a pattern of allowing known predators to continue in such positions, a jury could certainly award damages in a civil trial.  I assume the statute of limitations in any criminal proceeding has run its course.

21 hours ago, Calm said:

At best this is evidence someone in Church leadership knew afterwards.  It works possibly for possible victims who came later.  Did he say who he confessed to?  Is the report itself online?

The point to be made here is that the first loyalty of BYU Police is to the Church, not to the Law -- which they are bound by oath to uphold.  Reminds me of recent demands by some Roman Catholic cardinals and bishops that parishioners comply with Church law rather than with secular civil and criminal law, or be denied communion.

[Jeanne]

13 hours ago, Calm said:

I think he has dementia to some extent because of the random things he says even prior to Denson telling him who she is (there is no need in the context of the interviewer by if mission presidents to go into the cheating ways of his second wife’s first husband and how that led to divorce for him, for example).  It is his relatively calm receipt of who she is along with her telling him she had threatened to kill him. It is his “you should be angry with me, but I don’t remember what I am now apologizing for”. Would any competent person admit to molesting someone solely on their say-so?  He agrees with her and then contradicts her.

Lots of people are telling me my mom is doing great, is competent, etc.  except for the three people who interact with her most and have experience with others who had dementia. If one is highly intelligent like my mom was, they can be very good at covering it. You can usually only tell by tracking her over days and having multiple conversations with her. 

Bishop has dementia to some extent...but he remembers key and relevant things..which doesn't change what he has done.  Also...dementia has become rather convenient for many.

[esodije]

I’m guessing that nothing noteworthy came out in Robert E. Wells’ deposition, as anything damaging to the church would surely have been leaked by now. Thus, no confirmation from Elder Wells of either Bishop’s confession in ~1979 or what the latter may have confessed to?

I think the notion that a church leader, anywhere, would use church funds to pay for a female member’s breast-augmentation surgery is an absurdity that calls the whole “show me your breasts” episode into question. I don’t know how much of a dirty old man Bishop was 30-40 years ago, but his recollections are no more reliable now than Denson’s are credible.

[pogi]

35 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Bishop has dementia to some extent...

Do you have some information on this?

35 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

but he remembers key and relevant things..which doesn't change what he has done.  

Between Denson's credibility and Bishop's memory, how do you know what is "key" and "relevant"?  If he truly does have dementia, I don't know how you could really say this.  One characteristic of dementia is the ability to form false memories, so the fact that he has admitted to something only after it was suggested that he did it is very weak evidence in the case of dementia.

35 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Also...dementia has become rather convenient for many.

Having worked with many dementia patients, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy...or their family.

Edited June 17, 2019 by pogi

[Danzo]

5 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Bishop has dementia to some extent...but he remembers key and relevant things..which doesn't change what he has done.  Also...dementia has become rather convenient for many.

The problem is that everything everyone is talking about in this case comes down to two witnesses; Bishop and Denison. Both appear to be unreliable witnesses.  

Since they both appear to be unreliable, everyone here is going to pick and choose which statements to believe and which statements to  disbelieve based on their preconceived notions.

 

I doubt anyone's opinions of the church will changed based on the accuracy or inaccuracy of the current allegations.  Those who distrust the church will just think that the alleged occurrences really happened, but by different people to different people. 

Most of those who still believe in the church will go on thinking that sinners are gonna sin and  that the church is made up of imperfect people. 

 

Those who really care are going to look for ways to compensate for flawed people being placed in leadership (increased vetting, two deep leadership, victim care, etc.)  These things can only be done by people who are involved in the church, not by those who have left the church. In fact, discussions on youth safety are a regular occurrence in our ward council.  The people who have left often don't seem aware of these discussions and certainly aren't a part of them.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Danzo

[Jeanne]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

Do you have some information on this?

Between Denson's credibility and Bishop's memory, how do you know what is "key" and "relevant"?  If he truly does have dementia, I don't know how you could really say this.  One characteristic of dementia is the ability to form false memories, so the fact that he has admitted to something only after it was suggested that he did it is very weak evidence in the case of dementia.

Having worked with many dementia patients, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy...or their family.

Oh wow...me neither...I get it. 

[Amulek]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Quote

At best this is evidence someone in Church leadership knew afterwards.  It works possibly for possible victims who came later.  Did he say who he confessed to?  Is the report itself online?

The point to be made here is that the first loyalty of BYU Police is to the Church, not to the Law -- which they are bound by oath to uphold. 

I don't think that's a fair assessment. The BYU Police Department promptly investigated the alleged crime and reported their findings to the District Attorney - just as they do with any other criminal investigation.

When the DA determined to not pursue any criminal charges that ended the investigation.

What more do you think the BYU Police should have done? 

 

[Exiled]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

What had been the benefit of making it an issue in the case?  

The suit against Bishop was dismissed.  The family has no need to drag him into the spotlight again.

So what benefit to the Church since he has given conflicting testimony and they only need to point to that at this point?

It is not like the Church has been offering anything but minimal comments since it became public.  They haven’t been giving a running commentary like Denson  

———

Perhaps no one has said anything because  if your loved one has mild dementia and you know it is only going to get worse and you have an ounce of compassion in you, there is a pretty good chance you never mention it where they can hear that word and you just keep down playing the significance of confusion and memory loss to them because they are terrified that they are losing their mind and will end locked up in a warehouse (as my mom describes it). 

But removing any emotional reason to downplay his issues, Bishop’s family and lawyer must know that there is no benefit to making anymore of a deal of his physical or mental health than they have already.  

The Church has no right to talk about Bishop’s mental state without permission and no real need to prior to the public release of this confession imo.  They could have easily waited until trial and made a big impact on jurors by sharing the info in court when they needed to discredit his testimony.

Also if dementia gets pushed as a defense, then anything Bishop says useful for that defense is diminished in value. 

Finally Church lawyers and Bishop’s lawyers were fully aware of the train wreck of a witness Denson is when it comes to her credibility. All they had to do was wait. 

There is little public benefit pushing dementia in the general public. Bishop is, IMO, branded as a predator and pushing dementia to the public is as likely to convince people he is trying to avoid responsibility as it will raise sympathy.

Raising it publicly also defeats being able to depend on his specific denial of being a rapist or not discussing it with Asay or anyone else.  Makes better legal sense to hold it in reserve, imo.  The Church’s liability is not diminished if he is incompetent, only Bishop benefits right now from playing that card legally and he has no legal problems given the case against was dismissed  

And to be clear having dementia doesn’t mean someone is incompetent or memories are completely unreliable. Mild dementia may have minimal impact on a person. Stress can certainly increase that impact, but there are also ways to diminish the impact.  I am not saying Bishop doesn’t know what he is talking about in most things, there are somethings I think are likely accurate. 

——

Of course, if you assume he is fully competent, why would you also assume he is telling the truth? Blaming others removes his responsibility and can only make him look better  and he has a record of doing just that in the transcript  

If Denson and the other alleged victims are telling the truth about the abuse (at this point I see no reason to question other victims’ reliability btw), this guy is an opportunistic rapist, an abuser who never apologized to his victims until he was placed in a position where it was better to do so (no dementia means he knew Denson had threatened to kill him before and that she was bragging about that at the interview).  He lied to his leaders and likely his family.  Why not lie to police?  He would know no one could prove a negative, that he hadn’t confessed. Saying he confessed makes him look good if he got surprised or felt it safer to admit he molested women  

I find it interesting that many critics are willing to think the worse of Bishop in every way until it comes to something that supports their belief and then he is trustworthy. 

Why are you raising the dementia issue? He sounds lucid. He sounds like he understood the police questions. He answered them in a coherent manner. Interestingly, he remembers asking to see Ms. Denson's breasts but when it comes to what happened afterward, he doesn't deny it. He says he doesn't remember it. I expected an emphatic denial at this point, not I don't remember.

I wonder how many people suddenly forget an incident right in the middle? It was a long time ago that it happened and memories fade. Yet he remembers the breasts but doesn't remember enough to tell the police that he certainly did not rape Ms. Denson. At this point he doesn't remember. So, does that mean that he could have raped her but doesn't remember?

Edited June 17, 2019 by Exiled

[Scott Lloyd]

5 hours ago, Hagoth said:

I don't check in much, but since my normal homebase is down for repairs, I thought I'd stop by.  Concerning some aspects of this thread, whether or not the above quote is true, as far as I know neither Brother Volluz nor Brother RFM have publicly made that connection, and I have a pretty good idea that neither of those identities would appreciate people doxing them online. Also, it's listed as one of the banned behaviors of this board: "• Posting personal or identifying information about others"

For what it's worth, I listened today to a podcast interview that Bill Reel did with Corbin Volluz on the Adam-God theory. The voice and delivery of Volluz and the voice and delivery of the host of Radio Free Mormon do match, quite convincingly.

I do not consider it doxing to make that observation or to suggest that others are free to make the same comparison and to consider other factors, such as the fact that Reel features Radio Free Mormon on his (Reel's) podcast website. And I'm not convinced the identity is any great secret anyway.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Robert F. Smith]

53 minutes ago, Amulek said:

I don't think that's a fair assessment. The BYU Police Department promptly investigated the alleged crime and reported their findings to the District Attorney - just as they do with any other criminal investigation.

When the DA determined to not pursue any criminal charges that ended the investigation.

What more do you think the BYU Police should have done? 

If the victims and their attorneys were fully informed (and in a timely way), then there would be only civil recourse.  Why is it that I am thinking that was not done, and that BYU PD dragged their feet in disclosing all that to the victims and their attorneys.  Am I wrong about that also?  How many decades after the fact are we now?  Did the D.A.'s office deliberately withhold discovery?  Has the victim(s) been irreparably damaged?  Is this law enforcement with a human face?  Did anyone care?  Is BYU PD even POST certified at present?

[provoman]

9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If the victims and their attorneys were fully informed (and in a timely way), then there would be only civil recourse.  Why is it that I am thinking that was not done, and that BYU PD dragged their feet in disclosing all that to the victims and their attorneys.  Am I wrong about that also?  How many decades after the fact are we now?  Did the D.A.'s office deliberately withhold discovery?  Has the victim(s) been irreparably damaged?  Is this law enforcement with a human face?  Did anyone care?  Is BYU PD even POST certified at present?

33 years after the alleged incident did she go to police. 

I really do not understand why the hostility toward BYU PD, when BYU PD was not informed until December 2017. And BYU PD promptly went to Bishop and attempted to contact/locate the individual that she named in her letter to the BYU PD.

Edited June 17, 2019 by provoman

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Bishop has dementia to some extent...but he remembers key and relevant things..which doesn't change what he has done.  Also...dementia has become rather convenient for many.

It is a convenient out, so I do not expect anyone to give him a pass unless there is a decent medical diagnosis and examination,and hopefully both before and after the interviews.

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

33 years after the alleged incident did she go to police.

Hmmmm.  No wonder we have such a boondoggle.  No one bothered to say anything to law enforcement until last year. No wonder we are still behind the eight-ball.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, esodije said:

as anything damaging to the church would surely have been leaked by now

This police interview was damaging at least in a PR sense and further lawsuits and wasn't leaked...at least the damaging part.  So I consider it possible there is more stuff.