BYU police of Joseph Bishop interview tape released

[Calm]

3 hours ago, esodije said:

think the notion that a church leader, anywhere, would use church funds to pay for a female member’s breast-augmentation surgery is an absurdity that calls the whole “show me your breasts” episode into question. I don’t know how much of a dirty old man Bishop was 30-40 years ago, but his recollections are no more reliable now than Denson’s are credible.

I think the breast enhancement could easily be dementia coming up with an explanation for his self esteem besides he was completely immoral for asking a woman to expose herself to him.

Someone getting a breast enhancement was mentioned in the Denson interview, he gets fixated on that and while thinking over what he is going to say to police, he looks for a reason that makes him human, not evil.  Maybe curiosity and then expands it to it was for his wife, so not really lusting after her.  Even he knows how stupid that sounds, so he adds "The Natural Man" when he shares it three days later, but I bet it is a comforting story to tell himself.

The attachment of a church leader calling to complain gives him an excuse of how he knew to ask that specific woman as opposed to it coming up in an inappropriate conversation, when likely it was just a woman with normal breasts or at least he thought it was.

The Church funds thing...a bishop doing it and then another leader finding out and then complains to Bishop rather than the sister's home stake president?  Doesn't make too much sense even if one accepts the absurdity of a bishop paying for cosmetic surgery of a young woman in his ward out of church funds and expecting not to get caught or reprimanded for it.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Calm

[provoman]

2 hours ago, esodije said:

I’m guessing that nothing noteworthy came out in Robert E. Wells’ deposition, as anything damaging to the church would surely have been leaked by now. Thus, no confirmation from Elder Wells of either Bishop’s confession in ~1979 or what the latter may have confessed to?

In document to oppose a request made by plaintiff attorney, the defendant's attorney stated that the request made by the plaintiff was because the the depositions of Wells and Bishop failed to produce evidence favorable to the plaintiffs claim. The defendant's attorney also labeled the request made by the plaintiff a fishing expedition.

[Calm]

2 hours ago, pogi said:

Having worked with many dementia patients, I wouldn't wish it upon my worst enemy...or their family

I count on everyone being very nice to me on the board when I start showing it (which hopefully isn't anytime soon).  If my mom got it, it is definitely genetic and not just that my grandmother was a bit off to begin with and then screwed up her medications enough to take her the rest of the way.  Add in GreatGrandma ending up in the mental institution here in Provo...

Counting on something major happening with research in the next 15 years to save me.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Exiled said:

Why are you raising the dementia issue?

Because I am trying to understand him.  And some of the stuff he says is really random if you don't just pull out the money quotes, but listen to him from beginning to end and remember the context.

My degree was in clinical psychology.  This type of stuff fascinates me even when it's happening in my mom.

Quote

He sounds lucid. 

So does my mom the vast majority of time, but I know her history and I know some of the stories she tells now are created memories.

We don't know Bishop's history.  "Sounds like" isn't enough when it is mild dementia.

Quote

wonder how many people suddenly forget an incident right in the middle? It was a long time ago that it happened and memories fade. Yet he remembers the breasts but doesn't remember enough to tell the police that he certainly did not rape Ms. Denson. At this point he doesn't remember. So, does that mean that he could have raped her but doesn't remember?

He was pretty emphatic about not raping her though imo.  Can you quote where you see him as not being able to remember enough to tell the police he didn't?

My opinion....dementia can be weird at times with what is forgotten, but if he really did forget his dementia is tons worse than how I am reading it.  Once there is recognition one's memory is bad, many people in my experience just assume they are misremembering something.  It may be simply automatic for him to be apologetic about his memory.  I think it is in part protective as it preempts people getting mad at them if they find out the person got it wrong.

If he did actually rape Denson, my opinion is he is lying about remembering it.  I don't think his dementia is that bad.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Calm

[provoman]

12 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hmmmm.  No wonder we have such a boondoggle.  No one bothered to say anything to law enforcement until last year. No wonder we are still behind the eight-ball.

What do you think should have been done 33 years ago? In the draft copy a letter that she sent to BYU PD in 12/2017 she reports that she did not report the assault/rape. What she reports in the letters is supported by her former Bishop statement that what he was told was movies and magizines.  

[Robert F. Smith]

3 minutes ago, provoman said:

What do you think should have been done 33 years ago? In the draft copy a letter that she sent to BYU PD in 12/2017 she reports that she did not report the assault/rape. What she reports in the letters is supported by her former Bishop statement that what he was told was movies and magizines.  

If no one said anything to anyone, how could anything be done?  If that is all true, your point is well taken.

[provoman]

5 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If no one said anything to anyone, how could anything be done?  If that is all true, your point is well taken.

From the letter "I had to meet with Elder Thomas S. Monson before I could be released back into the mission field.I went to Wisconsin to complete my mission.I reported the incidents of President Bishop to my Bishop in about 1988. His name was Ron Leavitt. He reported to the Stake President’ who called and reported to church headquarters in Salt Lake.Elder Carlos Asay visited me in Provo or Orem and interviewed me. I reported everything except the rape"

There are the other things in the letter "One a separate occasion in the President’s office he told me (we were alone) that he and his wife were in a sexless relationship. He shared that he liked her to fix a candle lit dinner and wear a blouse that had elastic. I pictured a peasant blouse. President Bishop said he liked her to wear it pulled down over her breasts so she was bare breasted at dinner. On a separate occasion President Bishop said that he and a few other leaders liked to go the hot springs or hot tub in Wyoming. He told of an incident where a young woman was there with them and she took off her bikini top and exposed her bare breasts."

 

[Robert F. Smith]

36 minutes ago, provoman said:

From the letter "I had to meet with Elder Thomas S. Monson before I could be released back into the mission field.I went to Wisconsin to complete my mission.I reported the incidents of President Bishop to my Bishop in about 1988. His name was Ron Leavitt. He reported to the Stake President’ who called and reported to church headquarters in Salt Lake.Elder Carlos Asay visited me in Provo or Orem and interviewed me. I reported everything except the rape"

There are the other things in the letter "One a separate occasion in the President’s office he told me (we were alone) that he and his wife were in a sexless relationship. He shared that he liked her to fix a candle lit dinner and wear a blouse that had elastic. I pictured a peasant blouse. President Bishop said he liked her to wear it pulled down over her breasts so she was bare breasted at dinner. On a separate occasion President Bishop said that he and a few other leaders liked to go the hot springs or hot tub in Wyoming. He told of an incident where a young woman was there with them and she took off her bikini top and exposed her bare breasts."

What a sorry excuse for leadership.  I certainly hope that (as stated in some sources) that the official policy is now to report all such instances to law enforcement immediately.  Also, the victim should be of primary concern, not the reputation of the Church or of some highly placed leader(s).

[provoman]

17 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What a sorry excuse for leadership.  I certainly hope that (as stated in some sources) that the official policy is now to report all such instances to law enforcement immediately.  Also, the victim should be of primary concern, not the reputation of the Church or of some highly placed leader(s).

What do you see that should have been reported to police?

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What a sorry excuse for leadership. 

Only if she is telling the truth.  It is surprising how little Bishop said himself as opposed to just not contradicting her or saying "yes" if one reads all the transcript.  The police interview may change that, but then unless we find out about if he has dementia as has been rumored by some claiming to be close to the family (one said he was on his exwife's side, iirc) or not, it is hard to know whether to treat the police interview as independent or if it is possible the first interview created some false memories.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What a sorry excuse for leadership.  I certainly hope that (as stated in some sources) that the official policy is now to report all such instances to law enforcement immediately.  Also, the victim should be of primary concern, not the reputation of the Church or of some highly placed leader(s).

Leavitt states she told him her and another sister missionary were shown porn by Bishop and that was it.  He found the claim to be nonsense and states iirc she was known to be overdramatic.  He figured a mission President would be vetted and therefore safe.  He never reported it to anyone according to him.

Denson claims he hooked her up with Elder Asay, but that has not be confirmed by records or apparently her exhusband who she claims took her, iirc.

If .Leavitt is telling the truth, the first any other Church leader heard about it was in 2010 when they confronted Leavitt and he denied it.  Too late to be charged, though it should have been reported to police (it is unknown whether they did or not, church statement said they did and I read one comment from police that said they knew and declined to investigate, but iirc the official report only mentions the death threat).

Also after she went out to D.C. From the MTC in 1984 to wait for her visa, she claims she had an anxiety attack in a parking lot and started screaming.  Instead of saying she was having anxiety because she was embarrassed, she claimed someone tried to rape her (because that is less awkward?).  They sent her back to Provo and sent her to a therapist who she refused to talk to (and more or less brags about it) and then she had an interview with then .Elder Monson in order to be cleared for going out.  She says she said nothing then to either of them.

I don't fault a rape victim for not being ready to talk about it, but besides Leavitt, it seems like Church leadership at the time responded just as they should have, but she wasn't ready to tell them what had happened in order to do something about it.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Calm

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, provoman said:

What do you see that should have been reported to police?

That should be clear from your own comments:

Quote

4 hours ago, provoman said:

From the letter "I had to meet with Elder Thomas S. Monson before I could be released back into the mission field.I went to Wisconsin to complete my mission.I reported the incidents of President Bishop to my Bishop in about 1988. His name was Ron Leavitt. He reported to the Stake President’ who called and reported to church headquarters in Salt Lake.Elder Carlos Asay visited me in Provo or Orem and interviewed me. I reported everything except the rape"

There are the other things in the letter "One a separate occasion in the President’s office he told me (we were alone) that he and his wife were in a sexless relationship. He shared that he liked her to fix a candle lit dinner and wear a blouse that had elastic. I pictured a peasant blouse. President Bishop said he liked her to wear it pulled down over her breasts so she was bare breasted at dinner. On a separate occasion President Bishop said that he and a few other leaders liked to go the hot springs or hot tub in Wyoming. He told of an incident where a young woman was there with them and she took off her bikini top and exposed her bare breasts."

Should Elders Monson and Asay, Bishop Leavitt, the SP,  and any other leaders receiving the info in SLC have reported the claims to law enforcement immediately.  Or do I misunderstand something?

Edited June 18, 2019 by Robert F. Smith

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

Leavitt states she told him her and another sister missionary were shown porn by Bishop and that was it.  He found the claim to be nonsense and states iirc she was known to be overdramatic.  He figured a mission President would be vetted and therefore safe.  He never reported it to anyone according to him.

Denson claims he hooked her up with Elder Asay, but that has not be confirmed by records or apparently her exhusband who she claims took her, iirc.

If .Leavitt is telling the truth, the first any other Church leader heard about it was in 2010 when they confronted Leavitt and he denied it.  Too late to be charged, though it should have been reported to police (it is unknown whether they did or not, church statement said they did and I read one comment from police that said they knew and declined to investigate, but iirc the official report only mentions the death threat).

Also after she went out to D.C. From the MTC in 1984 to wait for her visa, she claims she had an anxiety attack in a parking lot and started screaming.  Instead of saying she was having anxiety because she was embarrassed, she claimed someone tried to rape her (because that is less awkward?).  They sent her back to Provo and sent her to a therapist who she refused to talk to (and more or less brags about it) and then she had an interview with then .Elder Monson in order to be cleared for going out.  She says she said nothing then to either of them.

I don't fault a rape victim for not being ready to talk about it, but besides Leavitt, it seems like Church leadership at the time responded just as they should have, but she wasn't ready to tell them what had happened in order to do something about it.

How odd.  All the signs of instability at best and psychosis at worst were there, and no one acted.

[Calm]

 

29 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

How odd.  All the signs of instability at best and psychosis at worst were there, and no one acted.

What signs could have been seen back then?  They could have taken her at her word someone approached threateningly in the parking lot when she screamed.  She said nothing else.  And there is nothing known that others might have said who were her companions.  She refused to speak to a therapist.  I assume you don’t think she should have been forcibly committed?

Besides whatever  she said to Leavitt in 1987 iirc, she  apparently didn’t share info with anyone we know of, so as far as they could tell there was nothing to act on 

Leavitt apparently thought she was looking for attention, unless he is lying or has dementia himself, though seems if he does it isn’t enough to matter toa judge  (I read someone reporting they had read that his lawyer tried to get him exempted from testifying because he has dementia but this was denied). He kept the relationship open apparently since his daughter ended up staying with Denson in Japan. He couldn’t have thought her too unstable if allowed that. Nor does it sound like ishe held any hard feelings against him.

She claims to have talked to Asay, but she has a history of lying so I don’t believe we should assume this to be the case unless her ex husband backs her on this. 

In 2010 leaders called the police.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

I count on everyone being very nice to me on the board when I start showing it (which hopefully isn't anytime soon).  If my mom got it, it is definitely genetic and not just that my grandmother was a bit off to begin with and then screwed up her medications enough to take her the rest of the way.  Add in GreatGrandma ending up in the mental institution here in Provo...

Counting on something major happening with research in the next 15 years to save me.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sciencealert.com/marijuana-compound-thc-removes-toxic-alzheimer-protein-from-brain/amp

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

What a sorry excuse for leadership.  I certainly hope that (as stated in some sources) that the official policy is now to report all such instances to law enforcement immediately.  Also, the victim should be of primary concern, not the reputation of the Church or of some highly placed leader(s).

👍

[Robert F. Smith]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

What signs could have been seen back then?  They could have taken her at her word someone approached threateningly in the parking lot when she screamed.  She said nothing else.  And there is nothing known that others might have said who were her companions.  She refused to speak to a therapist.  I assume you don’t think she should have been forcibly committed?

Besides whatever  she said to Leavitt in 1987 iirc, she  apparently didn’t share info with anyone we know of, so as far as they could tell there was nothing to act on 

Leavitt apparently thought she was looking for attention, unless he is lying or has dementia himself, though seems if he does it isn’t enough to matter toa judge  (I read someone reporting they had read that his lawyer tried to get him exempted from testifying because he has dementia but this was denied). He kept the relationship open apparently since his daughter ended up staying with Denson in Japan. He couldn’t have thought her too unstable if allowed that. Nor does it sound like ishe held any hard feelings against him.

She claims to have talked to Asay, but she has a history of lying so I don’t believe we should assume this to be the case unless her ex husband backs her on this. 

In 2010 leaders called the police.

Looking for attention is all too often an excuse for not inquiring more deeply, or not referring to a therapist.  Bishop Leavitt could at least have recommended that.  Hard to believe that he is so dense as not to recognize signs of a problem.  If I had been bishop, I'd have at least paid for some therapy sessions.  I have seen it done with some excellent results.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Looking for attention is all too often an excuse for not inquiring more deeply, or not referring to a therapist.  Bishop Leavitt could at least have recommended that.  Hard to believe that he is so dense as not to recognize signs of a problem.  If I had been bishop, I'd have at least paid for some therapy sessions.  I have seen it done with some excellent results.

Hindsight 30 years later is always better, but it seems a lot of judgment is being made here on very little info,  

We don't know what he offered in terms of help or not, except that he says he didn't report the accusation.  He very well may have offered counseling, she may have refused it like she refused to make use of the therapy given to her on her mission.  We have no way of knowing enough to judge at this point except to say a mistake was made in not reporting such a claim, but he was hardly unique in that at the time.  Even in these days of mandatory reporting, many who are supposed to still do not according to stats I have read.  And much that is reported is not investigated.

[provoman]

7 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

That should be clear from your own comments:

Should Elders Monson and Asay, Bishop Leavitt, the SP,  and any other leaders receiving the info in SLC have reported the claims to law enforcement immediately.  Or do I misunderstand something?

I think you are misunderstanding several things. 

An adult speaks to another adult about breasts....what police should be called? 

She does not indicate that she reported anything to Elder Monson; what should he have reported to the police?

In 1987, according to her former bishop, she talked about viewing pornography in the MTC; what should have reported to the police?

To Elder Asay, she reported - based on her own words - talking about breasts and a sex less marriage, and she specifically wrote she not report the alleged assault/rape; what should he have reported to the police?

 

[Amulek]

13 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If the victims and their attorneys were fully informed (and in a timely way), then there would be only civil recourse.  Why is it that I am thinking that was not done, and that BYU PD dragged their feet in disclosing all that to the victims and their attorneys.  Am I wrong about that also?  How many decades after the fact are we now?  Did the D.A.'s office deliberately withhold discovery?  Has the victim(s) been irreparably damaged?  Is this law enforcement with a human face?  Did anyone care?  Is BYU PD even POST certified at present?

I see that others have filled in some of the details to get you up to speed. 

There has been nothing at all to suggest that the BYU PD's "first loyalty [...] is to the Church, not to the Law."

In fact, if I remember correctly, McKenna herself has said nothing but good things about her experience with the BYU PD. 

 

[Amulek]

53 minutes ago, provoman said:

In 1987, according to her former bishop, she talked about viewing pornography in the MTC; what should have reported to the police?

I can imagine the phone call, "Um, officer...I would like to report that two adults met up and allegedly watched an episode of Game of Thrones together." 

 

[Thinking]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

An adult speaks to another adult about breasts....what police should be called?

One of the adults is in a position of power. Does that make a difference criminally? I ask because I don't know. Lawyers?

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

One of the adults is in a position of power. Does that make a difference criminally? I ask because I don't know. Lawyers?

Back in the 80s?  Probably not as much as it does now even if it was on the books simply because of the assumptions police and society were known generally to make in the past.  I was in my early 20s at the time and would likely not seen it as criminal based on how I reacted to a similar situation.  A relative at that age had an affair with her boss several years later because she felt since he had been nice to her she couldn't say no...and I was shocked and repulsed by his treatment and understood the power differential, but no one including me ever thought of suggesting she report him to the police or his own bosses as we saw it as one adult giving into pressure to another, not much different than one teen giving into pressure because of being told 'if you love me, you will do what I want'.

Edited June 18, 2019 by Calm

[ALarson]

1 hour ago, provoman said:

I think you are misunderstanding several things. 

An adult speaks to another adult about breasts....what police should be called? 

She does not indicate that she reported anything to Elder Monson; what should he have reported to the police?

In 1987, according to her former bishop, she talked about viewing pornography in the MTC; what should have reported to the police?

To Elder Asay, she reported - based on her own words - talking about breasts and a sex less marriage, and she specifically wrote she not report the alleged assault/rape; what should he have reported to the police?

I'm not sure there was anything that should have been reported to the police at that point (from what I understand).

But, he should have been released from his calling immediately so he did not repeat this behavior with any other missionary under his care, IMO.

[provoman]

1 hour ago, Thinking said:

One of the adults is in a position of power. Does that make a difference criminally? I ask because I don't know. Lawyers?

Adults are adults. One position does not automatically negate consent. I want to be very clear, I am not suggesting, that she consented to what she claims happened to her in the basement. 

Did Kamal Harris consent to her relationship with Willie Brown?

Did Monica consent to Bill Clinton?

Can a person married to or dating a police officer, Judge, Governor, King, Queen, President...consent to sexual relations with the spouse/significant other?

Edited June 18, 2019 by provoman