Careful vs. Casual

[california boy]

12 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I would argue the Iron Rod is the prereq. It is the more rule based approach but it is the groundwork to building a new person through Christ. Eventually you get to a more “Liahona” path but you do not get there by discarding the commandments. The commandments are the schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Trying to skip ahead or hold part of the gospel in a kind of benign contempt has been tried but I have never seen it work.

 

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

The Liahona way of getting back to God is an old reliable for those who seek to ignore the Law. The one I used often was, "I follow the Spirit of the Law". This sounds good to the next individual who does not even know what the commandments are, but sure enjoys the flexibility of what becomes, "I will just do what I want!"  

There is an inbuilt assumption that the holder of the Liahona, though human, is also earnestly seeking to follow God, but is lost and needs to know what path to take. Once knowing the Law, recognizing the path to take, it is holding to the Iron Rod. 

When I was following that Iron Rod approach, doing everything Church leaders told me to do, which ended up leading me down a path that has now been disavowed by those leaders, people on this board actually blamed me for not seeking my own revelation on this.  We hear a lot of lip service to personal revelation.  To each of us having a direct connection to inspiration.  To listening to Church leaders but not following them blindly.

I found that following Church leaders blindly didn't work for me.  Yes sometimes a person may get something wrong.  But guess what, Church leaders sometimes get things wrong as well.  We are all infallible.  Perhaps the Iron Rod approach is safer, until it isn't.  Perhaps the Liahona approach of waking up each morning and looking to God for direction has its risks.  Maybe the difference is that the Liahona approach, asking God for direction every single day means you don't go down the wrong path forever, waiting for Church leaders to change their minds.

I am not saying to ignore any commandment.  But I am also saying that not everything any prophet, past or present is a commandment from God.  At this point in history, that should be pretty apparent.  I know there are many on this board that think I am ignoring what they are sure are commandments.  I am fine with that.  But that is not what the Spirit confirms to me.  You have no idea how troubled I was for many years holding on to that Iron Rod, doing exactly what I was told to do.  And you have no idea the peace God has given me in the path that I currently am on.  As long as I am comfortable with what judgements await me, why should it worry anyone else what my path is.  And yes this is a two way street.  I also am not worried in the slightest the path that Church members are on.  I am not worried about those that grip that Iron Rod as hard as they can in seeking a path back to God.  Do you have to throw out one approach in order to validate the other?

Look unto me in every thought.  Doubt not, fear not.

[Storm Rider]

8 hours ago, california boy said:

When I was following that Iron Rod approach, doing everything Church leaders told me to do, which ended up leading me down a path that has now been disavowed by those leaders, people on this board actually blamed me for not seeking my own revelation on this.  We hear a lot of lip service to personal revelation.  To each of us having a direct connection to inspiration.  To listening to Church leaders but not following them blindly.

I found that following Church leaders blindly didn't work for me.  Yes sometimes a person may get something wrong.  But guess what, Church leaders sometimes get things wrong as well.  We are all infallible.  Perhaps the Iron Rod approach is safer, until it isn't.  Perhaps the Liahona approach of waking up each morning and looking to God for direction has its risks.  Maybe the difference is that the Liahona approach, asking God for direction every single day means you don't go down the wrong path forever, waiting for Church leaders to change their minds.

I am not saying to ignore any commandment.  But I am also saying that not everything any prophet, past or present is a commandment from God.  At this point in history, that should be pretty apparent.  I know there are many on this board that think I am ignoring what they are sure are commandments.  I am fine with that.  But that is not what the Spirit confirms to me.  You have no idea how troubled I was for many years holding on to that Iron Rod, doing exactly what I was told to do.  And you have no idea the peace God has given me in the path that I currently am on.  As long as I am comfortable with what judgements await me, why should it worry anyone else what my path is.  And yes this is a two way street.  I also am not worried in the slightest the path that Church members are on.  I am not worried about those that grip that Iron Rod as hard as they can in seeking a path back to God.  Do you have to throw out one approach in order to validate the other?

Look unto me in every thought.  Doubt not, fear not.

I don't think I really disagree with anything you have written above. You will note in my comment I used "I" when talking about the Spirit of the Law - that was me and continues to be me. 

There are those that follow without question; that has not been my path. I have tended to strive to understand Biblical teachings, the teachings of latter-day prophets, and the promptings of the Holy Spirit. The challenge for humans is learning to recognize the voice or promptings of the Spirit versus anything else. 

I have known individuals that were firmly in the grasp of the evil one. Yet, they were proudly adamant of being on the path to God. We have read of many teachers in the scriptures that were both confused and misled by the evil one. This is the challenge for us - to whom are we listening? Do we have itching ears that seek a confirmation of our own desires or the desires of Satan? 

Cal, I want you to make sure you are not misinterpreting anything I am saying - I do not think you are under the guidance of the Satan or even misled by him. If asked, I would probably say that God is guiding you on the best path for you at this time in your life. It is a path that you are capable of following today. It is not a path of Exaltation or Theosis, but it is a path with some truth. I firmly believe that God is active to the degree he is allowed to be in the lives of his children. 

Today I am in a more thoughtful mood and reading some of the quotations I have collected during my life. Here is one of my favorites of the moment:

Costly grace is the gospel which must be sought again and again and again, the gift which must be asked for, the door at which a man must knock. Such grace is costly because it calls us to follow, and it is grace because it calls us to follow Jesus Christ. It is costly because it costs a man his life, and it is grace because it gives a man the only true life. It is costly because it condemns sin, and grace because it justifies the sinner. Above all, it is costly because it cost God the life of his Son.― Dietrich Bonhoeffer, The Cost of Discipleship

[pogi]

On 5/27/2019 at 1:43 AM, california boy said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps a train is the wrong choice of transportation.  There is more than one way to get from California to New York.  Trains by their very design are dangerous because they can't stop suddenly and they can't deviate from their course.  They are the Iron Rod approach to getting back to God. 

But what of the alternative.  What about the Liahona way of getting back to God.  Each day, looking to God to guide you that day how best to come closer to Him.  Perhaps there is some fellow traveler who needs more help that day than your need to make an extra two miles.  Perhaps God wants you to take a different road for a while because what you find on that road will make you a better person or someone else a better person.  Perhaps the people stuck in the car need you to release them.  You can't do that from a train traveling at high speed.  Is all the train can do by it's very nature is to leave casualties along it's path.  Is there a race to get back to God?  Is there a timetable we must meet?  Can we only pick up those waitig at the station to bring along?

What kind of Jew was Christ?  Was He an Iron Rod Jew who was on a straight path, never deviating from what was laid out before Him?  Or did he wake up each day to look to the Liahona to guide Him. Did He take time to pick corn on the Sabbath, even when that was not on the tracks. Or not pick up a stone, even though that was not on the path.

I don't personally see a difference between the two.  The Iron Rod way is the Liahona way, and vise versa.  Seeking, praying, and humbly heeding the word of God through personal inspiration is key to making both work.  The pointers on the Liahona are equivalent to the iron rod - it points the way just as the iron rod does.  They both represent God's word and will for us in our lives. If you deviate from the pointers/rod, you do so at your own risk and peril.  The only difference between the stories is that the Liahona goes deeper into explaining the faith/worthiness that is required to discover the word/will of God (iron rod) for us in our lives.  Both require the same undeviating obedience, and they both lead to the same destination via the only means possible - The Way (Jesus Christ).  They are not two separate ways. "There is no other way" - they are one and the same. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by pogi

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, pogi said:

I don't personally see a difference between the two.  The Iron Rod way is the Liahona way, and vise versa.  Seeking, praying, and humbly heeding the word of God through personal inspiration is key to making both work.  The pointers on the Liahona are equivalent to the iron rod - it points the way just as the iron rod does.  They both represent God's word and will for us in our lives. If you deviate from the pointers/rod, you do so at your own risk and peril.  The only difference between the stories is that the Liahona goes deeper into explaining the faith/worthiness that is required to discover the word/will of God (iron rod) for us in our lives.  Both require the same undeviating obedience, and they both lead to the same destination via the only means possible - The Way (Jesus Christ)

I'm with you on this and have never understood those who have attempted to try to make the Iron Rod and the Liahona into competing philosophies.  They clearly are not competing philosophies as they are taught in the scriptures at all.  They both come from the same exact source and serve the exact same purpose.  

Nephi was expected to be a Liahona saint and an Iron Rod saint at the same time.

[changed]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

 

When I was following that Iron Rod approach, doing everything Church leaders told me to do, which ended up leading me down a path that has now been disavowed by those leaders, people on this board actually blamed me for not seeking my own revelation on this.  We hear a lot of lip service to personal revelation.  To each of us having a direct connection to inspiration.  To listening to Church leaders but not following them blindly.

I found that following Church leaders blindly didn't work for me.  Yes sometimes a person may get something wrong.  But guess what, Church leaders sometimes get things wrong as well.  We are all infallible.  Perhaps the Iron Rod approach is safer, until it isn't.  Perhaps the Liahona approach of waking up each morning and looking to God for direction has its risks.  Maybe the difference is that the Liahona approach, asking God for direction every single day means you don't go down the wrong path forever, waiting for Church leaders to change their minds.

I am not saying to ignore any commandment.  But I am also saying that not everything any prophet, past or present is a commandment from God.  At this point in history, that should be pretty apparent.  I know there are many on this board that think I am ignoring what they are sure are commandments.  I am fine with that.  But that is not what the Spirit confirms to me.  You have no idea how troubled I was for many years holding on to that Iron Rod, doing exactly what I was told to do.  And you have no idea the peace God has given me in the path that I currently am on.  As long as I am comfortable with what judgements await me, why should it worry anyone else what my path is.  And yes this is a two way street.  I also am not worried in the slightest the path that Church members are on.  I am not worried about those that grip that Iron Rod as hard as they can in seeking a path back to God.  Do you have to throw out one approach in order to validate the other?

Look unto me in every thought.  Doubt not, fear not.

 

I think much of the church concentrates on educating the youth, rather than adults.  Programs and lesson materials are designed for those who are younger in the faith - for those who are more dependent on others for guidance, validation, and direction.  It seems most of the local leaders are dependent as well - not really allowed to think and act for themselves (at least I have had too may encounters that ended with someone digging through official manuals rather than just sharing what they personally were guided to say and do).  It is a giant leap - to step away from holding onto the arms of flesh, and take ownership of one's own beliefs and spiritual journey.  

 

Mathew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in My name, there am I with them.- There is one part of faith which is experienced within a community…    

 Mathew 6:6 But though, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut the door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward the openly. - There is another part of faith which is very private and personal, behind closed closet doors, which exists independently of any community or organization.  

~ For the strength of the pack is the wolf, and the strength of the wolf is the pack ~

It takes both - a combination of strong, independent individuals, and a willingness to listen and work with others.

Dependent→Independent→interdependent... but independence comes before inter-dependence.    Spiritual independence and self-reliance are essential for maintaining individual freedoms and happiness, as well as a strong and thriving community.  

[Grateful]

To me her analogy is about the power of the momentum that is possible with the train track itself (the iron rod). A track that the train can hold on to, building momentum and becoming efficient with its progress. This woman was not expecting a kinder gentler train process, she was expecting the track to not to a track. The train to not be a train. She was saying, He didn't even try to swerve! A train can't swerve. He had done everything he could. And, he did not stop the car where it did not belong. But the real point is that the woman expected the train to not be a train. But some people expect the very structure to change, rather than recognize the structure is strength and that the train could not have the same momentum if it did not have a track. I think the question is, why are there tracks? What is the strength of a track? The tracks allow very heavy loads to gain momentum and keep rolling with less energy than otherwise possible. The train can connect many links and travel a long way smoothly. No, it is not a perfect analogy, but one she drew from her own life experience. I think that she is not asking us to be the engineer and choose whether we can warn the people and slow, or run their car over, but rather she is asking us to consider that we sometimes think trains can jump the track without any consequence to the train and those around them. Sometimes we look at the track and ask if we can bend it just a little, take a loop de loop but not lose our strength, nor momentum. Yes, in real life we can derail, we can slow our progress, we can leave the track all together, we have that power. In fact, that is the plan, that this world is a place of experience, and free agency, with many, many paths. In real life the tracks are everywhere and diverse, and instead of only one choice daily, we have a multitude of them. We have to humbly study the map to find our own way, and the iron rod is available wherever we are. We can choose to take each step with or without that power. Some places we might choose to travel to would require a great deal to get back to the rod, because they are not anywhere near the path of our highest good. We get to decide if we want to build momentum that will take us to the greatest of possibilities. I think she is not asking us to ask ourselves if we are good enough. She is asking us to consider how else we might become even better at keeping hold of the strength of the iron rod as we travel this life. She is reminding us that real principles bring real consequences, and we can choose which we want. That the happiness the world advertises is not the real joy and strength of trusting the strength of the path the Lord has built for us. And in my life experience it has been true. There is great joy in knowing you can travel very far and faster with great strength when you know the basic premises of the plan of salvation, leaving you free to create as you will. There is great power in trusting God and knowing the path, while you forge your way. It is indeed one of the joys of my life, and a strength I depend on. It's fun to create with confidence in knowing the Lord has your back, or in this instance, you have the power of the steady strength of a dependable path, while you decide what you will transport and create. That is how I see this analogy. Just my two cents. 

[Kenngo1969]

I am my ward's bulletin coordinator.  The front of our bulletin contains a scripture, a quote from a General Conference address, or another Church-of-Jesus-Christ-related inspirational quotation.  In honor of the criticism Sister Craven and her address have received on this thread, I used her six points from "Careful vs. Casual" as my General Conference quote on the front of the program a few weeks ago.

Thanks for the inspiration, everyone!  

(And if any of you would like to start threads criticizing other addresses so I can get more inspiration, please, by all means, do so! )

[Bernard Gui]

On 5/27/2019 at 1:43 AM, california boy said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps a train is the wrong choice of transportation.  There is more than one way to get from California to New York.  Trains by their very design are dangerous because they can't stop suddenly and they can't deviate from their course.  They are the Iron Rod approach to getting back to God. 

I’ve never bought into the Iron Rod/Liahona dichotomous  descriptors. They are not opposing ways of living the gospel.

The Iron Rod by interpretation is the Word of God. It says nothing about a person having to be rigidly oblivious to the plight of others, rushing headlong up the path at the expense of everyone else. In fact, it demands just the opposite. The Word of God teaches us to press forward by keeping his commandments - to love our neighbor as ourselves, to feed the Lord's sheep, to serve, to have compassion and mercy, to bear one another’s burdens, and to mourn with those that mourn. We stay on the path and hold to the Rod only by doing these things the Lord commands in his word. Not doing them means we are not holding to the Rod. It simply describes the path we all must follow to eat of the blessed fruit of the tree of life (gain eternal life).

”and they came and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree.”

Quote

But what of the alternative.  What about the Liahona way of getting back to God.  Each day, looking to God to guide you that day how best to come closer to Him.  Perhaps there is some fellow traveler who needs more help that day than your need to make an extra two miles.  Perhaps God wants you to take a different road for a while because what you find on that road will make you a better person or someone else a better person.  Perhaps the people stuck in the car need you to release them.  You can't do that from a train traveling at high speed.  Is all the train can do by it's very nature is to leave casualties along it's path.  Is there a race to get back to God?  Is there a timetable we must meet?  Can we only pick up those waitig at the station to bring along?

The Liahona does not represent an alternative and more compassionate way to live the gospel. It was simply an instrument that pointed the right way to go. It worked only on conditions of faith and righteousness. It illuminated their path even in the mists of darkness. Following its directions resulted in keeping on a straight course to the Promised Land (eternal life).

When they let go of the Rod, the Liahona stopped working. In other words, if one is not continually holding onto the Iron Rod, the Liahona is just a useless lump of whatever it was made of. It becomes an extra burden to be discarded at the earliest convenience. 

“For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ [hold to the Iron Rod], which will point to you a straight course to eternal bliss, as it was for our fathers to give heed to this compass, which would point unto them a straight course to the promised land. And now I say, is there not a type in this thing? For just as surely as this director did bring our fathers, by following its course, to the promised land, shall the words of Christ, if we follow their course, carry us beyond this vale of sorrow into a far better land of promise.“

Quote

What kind of Jew was Christ?  Was He an Iron Rod Jew who was on a straight path, never deviating from what was laid out before Him?  Or did he wake up each day to look to the Liahona to guide Him. Did He take time to pick corn on the Sabbath, even when that was not on the tracks. Or not pick up a stone, even though that was not on the path.

That is a false dilemma. His Word is the Iron Rod and his revelations are the Liahona. The Word is God. There is nothing on the Iron Rod path that precludes pausing to offer service. There is nothing the Liahona would reveal to lead one off the path. In the end, the Iron Rod and the Liahona are the interdependent ways of accomplishing the same goal....holding on to his word by following his directions in order to live again with God.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

8 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I am my ward's bulletin coordinator.  The front of our bulletin contains a scripture, a quote from a General Conference address, or another Church-of-Jesus-Christ-related inspirational quotation.  In honor of the criticism Sister Craven and her address have received on this thread, I used her six points from "Careful vs. Casual" as my General Conference quote on the front of the program a few weeks ago.

Thanks for the inspiration, everyone!  

(And if any of you would like to start threads criticizing other addresses so I can get more inspiration, please, by all means, do so! )

Offenders for a word.

[Scott Lloyd]

9 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I am my ward's bulletin coordinator.  The front of our bulletin contains a scripture, a quote from a General Conference address, or another Church-of-Jesus-Christ-related inspirational quotation.  In honor of the criticism Sister Craven and her address have received on this thread, I used her six points from "Careful vs. Casual" as my General Conference quote on the front of the program a few weeks ago.

Thanks for the inspiration, everyone!  

(And if any of you would like to start threads criticizing other addresses so I can get more inspiration, please, by all means, do so! )

Back in the days of the three-hour block and priesthood meeting opening exercises, I would choose the hymns we sang in priesthood meeting. Sometimes, when I would read posts on here disparaging the beloved hymn “Praise to the Man,” I would select it for singing in priesthood meeting.

What a source of inspiration this place is!

[Kenngo1969]

18 hours ago, Grateful said:

To me her analogy is about the power of the momentum that is possible with the train track itself (the iron rod). A track that the train can hold on to, building momentum and becoming efficient with its progress. This woman was not expecting a kinder gentler train process, she was expecting the track to not to a track. The train to not be a train. She was saying, He didn't even try to swerve! A train can't swerve. He had done everything he could. And, he did not stop the car where it did not belong. But the real point is that the woman expected the train to not be a train. But some people expect the very structure to change, rather than recognize the structure is strength and that the train could not have the same momentum if it did not have a track. I think the question is, why are there tracks? What is the strength of a track? The tracks allow very heavy loads to gain momentum and keep rolling with less energy than otherwise possible. The train can connect many links and travel a long way smoothly. No, it is not a perfect analogy, but one she drew from her own life experience. I think that she is not asking us to be the engineer and choose whether we can warn the people and slow, or run their car over, but rather she is asking us to consider that we sometimes think trains can jump the track without any consequence to the train and those around them. Sometimes we look at the track and ask if we can bend it just a little, take a loop de loop but not lose our strength, nor momentum. Yes, in real life we can derail, we can slow our progress, we can leave the track all together, we have that power. In fact, that is the plan, that this world is a place of experience, and free agency, with many, many paths. In real life the tracks are everywhere and diverse, and instead of only one choice daily, we have a multitude of them. We have to humbly study the map to find our own way, and the iron rod is available wherever we are. We can choose to take each step with or without that power. Some places we might choose to travel to would require a great deal to get back to the rod, because they are not anywhere near the path of our highest good. We get to decide if we want to build momentum that will take us to the greatest of possibilities. I think she is not asking us to ask ourselves if we are good enough. She is asking us to consider how else we might become even better at keeping hold of the strength of the iron rod as we travel this life. She is reminding us that real principles bring real consequences, and we can choose which we want. That the happiness the world advertises is not the real joy and strength of trusting the strength of the path the Lord has built for us. And in my life experience it has been true. There is great joy in knowing you can travel very far and faster with great strength when you know the basic premises of the plan of salvation, leaving you free to create as you will. There is great power in trusting God and knowing the path, while you forge your way. It is indeed one of the joys of my life, and a strength I depend on. It's fun to create with confidence in knowing the Lord has your back, or in this instance, you have the power of the steady strength of a dependable path, while you decide what you will transport and create. That is how I see this analogy. Just my two cents. 

+1.  (You need 25 posts to begin receiving rep points.  There are a couple of threads you can visit to facilitate that.  Here's one: http://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/39999-a-three-word-story/page/217/ .)

Welcome to the Board.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[california boy]

7 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’ve never bought into the Iron Rod/Liahona dichotomous  descriptors. They are not opposing ways of living the gospel.

The Iron Rod by interpretation is the Word of God. It says nothing about a person having to be rigidly oblivious to the plight of others, rushing headlong up the path at the expense of everyone else. In fact, it demands just the opposite. The Word of God teaches us to press forward by keeping hopes commandments - to love our neighbor as ourselves, to feed the Lord's sheep, to serve, to have compassion and mercy, to bear one another’s burdens, and to mourn with those that mourn. We stay on the path and hold to the Rod only by doing these things the Lord commands in his word. Not doing them means we are not holding to the Rod. It simply describes the path we all must follow to eat of the blessed fruit of the tree of life (gain eternal life).

”and they came and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press their way forward, continually holding fast to the rod of iron, until they came forth and fell down and partook of the fruit of the tree.”

The Liahona does not represent an alternative and more compassionate way to live the gospel. It was simply an instrument that pointed the right way to go. It worked only on conditions of faith and righteousness. It illuminated their path even in the mists of darkness. Following its directions resulted in keeping on a straight course to the Promised Land (eternal life).

When they let go of the Rod, the Liahona stopped working. In other words, if one is not continually holding onto the Iron Rod, the Liahona is just a useless lump of whatever it was made of. It becomes an extra burden to be discarded at the earliest convenience. 

“For behold, it is as easy to give heed to the word of Christ [hold to the Iron Rod], which will point to you a straight course to eternal bliss, as it was for our fathers to give heed to this compass, which would point unto them a straight course to the promised land. And now I say, is there not a type in this thing? For just as surely as this director did bring our fathers, by following its course, to the promised land, shall the words of Christ, if we follow their course, carry us beyond this vale of sorrow into a far better land of promise.“

That is a false dilemma. His Word is the Iron Rod and his revelations are the Liahona. The Word is God. There is nothing on the Iron Rod path that precludes pausing to offer service. There is nothing the Liahona would reveal to lead one off the path. In the end, the Iron Rod and the Liahona are the interdependent ways of accomplishing the same goal....holding on to his word by following his directions in order to live again with God.

The problem with the iron rod approach is that the scriptures have been interpreted to mean all kinds of things to justify all kinds of nasty behavior.  Just about every position someone wants to take can be justified by using the scriptures.  And trying to sort out the opinions of men that wrote the scriptures, folklore that drifted in and social norms of the time from something that God actually said and means for us today seems pretty problematic.  Even how modern prophets have interpreted the scriptures have not been without problems. 

Maybe that is why I am way more comfortable waking up each day and look to God for direction.  I am not saying disregard the scriptures.  I am only saying that to make the scriptures out to be something that no one should question or deviate from doesn't always turn out well.

[Tacenda]

On 5/29/2019 at 12:46 AM, california boy said:

 

When I was following that Iron Rod approach, doing everything Church leaders told me to do, which ended up leading me down a path that has now been disavowed by those leaders, people on this board actually blamed me for not seeking my own revelation on this.  We hear a lot of lip service to personal revelation.  To each of us having a direct connection to inspiration.  To listening to Church leaders but not following them blindly.

I found that following Church leaders blindly didn't work for me.  Yes sometimes a person may get something wrong.  But guess what, Church leaders sometimes get things wrong as well.  We are all infallible.  Perhaps the Iron Rod approach is safer, until it isn't.  Perhaps the Liahona approach of waking up each morning and looking to God for direction has its risks.  Maybe the difference is that the Liahona approach, asking God for direction every single day means you don't go down the wrong path forever, waiting for Church leaders to change their minds.

I am not saying to ignore any commandment.  But I am also saying that not everything any prophet, past or present is a commandment from God.  At this point in history, that should be pretty apparent.  I know there are many on this board that think I am ignoring what they are sure are commandments.  I am fine with that.  But that is not what the Spirit confirms to me.  You have no idea how troubled I was for many years holding on to that Iron Rod, doing exactly what I was told to do.  And you have no idea the peace God has given me in the path that I currently am on.  As long as I am comfortable with what judgements await me, why should it worry anyone else what my path is.  And yes this is a two way street.  I also am not worried in the slightest the path that Church members are on.  I am not worried about those that grip that Iron Rod as hard as they can in seeking a path back to God.  Do you have to throw out one approach in order to validate the other?

Look unto me in every thought.  Doubt not, fear not.

I've recently come upon a person's blog (?), most likely a critic of the church, with c/p'd prophecies in the D&C that didn't come to fruition. And my mind reverts back to hearing that if a prophet's revelations don't happen, then they are a false prophet. 

And when Joseph's revelations didn't happen,  we're left with men that want to change the world for the better I guess, so hopefully no harm. In the end it's our individual selves that need to go to the Lord with our questions and get revelation. I'm not one of those lucky ones that get those all the time.

Maybe that's why so many lean unto prophet's voices. And when they speak for the Lord, it better be from the Lord, or else it's taking His name in vain. If I were the first presidency of the church, I'd be very careful to say it's revelation, and they apparently are very careful to say it for the most part now.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

The problem with the iron rod approach is that the scriptures have been interpreted to mean all kinds of things to justify all kinds of nasty behavior.  Just about every position someone wants to take can be justified by using the scriptures.  And trying to sort out the opinions of men that wrote the scriptures, folklore that drifted in and social norms of the time from something that God actually said and means for us today seems pretty problematic.  Even how modern prophets have interpreted the scriptures have not been without problems. 

Maybe that is why I am way more comfortable waking up each day and look to God for direction.  I am not saying disregard the scriptures.  I am only saying that to make the scriptures out to be something that no one should question or deviate from doesn't always turn out well.

There are no separate "Iron Rod" "Liahona" approaches." Whether in the scriptures, the words of prophets, or personal revelation, the Iron Rod is the word of God. We use all three.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

33 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

There are no separate "Iron Rod" "Liahona" approaches." Whether in the scriptures, the words of prophets, or personal revelation, the Iron Rod is the word of God. We use all three.

And you know this because?

[Kenngo1969]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

And you know this because?

The scriptures mention both approvingly, and don't mention either to the exclusion of the other.  Trying to pit one against the other (and l'm not saying you're doing that, just that people have done it) reminds me of the whole "Chapel Mormon vs. Internet Mormon" false dichotomy.  And even if I thought the two concepts were at odds, the first thing I would do is look for ways to reconcile them.

Edited July 15, 2019 by Kenngo1969
Auto Complete strikes again!

[Calm]

On 7/14/2019 at 10:10 AM, Grateful said:

To me her analogy is about the power of the momentum that is possible with the train track itself (the iron rod). A track that the train can hold on to, building momentum and becoming efficient with its progress. This woman was not expecting a kinder gentler train process, she was expecting the track to not to a track. The train to not be a train. She was saying, He didn't even try to swerve! A train can't swerve. He had done everything he could. And, he did not stop the car where it did not belong. But the real point is that the woman expected the train to not be a train. But some people expect the very structure to change, rather than recognize the structure is strength and that the train could not have the same momentum if it did not have a track. I think the question is, why are there tracks? What is the strength of a track? The tracks allow very heavy loads to gain momentum and keep rolling with less energy than otherwise possible. The train can connect many links and travel a long way smoothly. No, it is not a perfect analogy, but one she drew from her own life experience. I think that she is not asking us to be the engineer and choose whether we can warn the people and slow, or run their car over, but rather she is asking us to consider that we sometimes think trains can jump the track without any consequence to the train and those around them. Sometimes we look at the track and ask if we can bend it just a little, take a loop de loop but not lose our strength, nor momentum. Yes, in real life we can derail, we can slow our progress, we can leave the track all together, we have that power. In fact, that is the plan, that this world is a place of experience, and free agency, with many, many paths. In real life the tracks are everywhere and diverse, and instead of only one choice daily, we have a multitude of them. We have to humbly study the map to find our own way, and the iron rod is available wherever we are. We can choose to take each step with or without that power. Some places we might choose to travel to would require a great deal to get back to the rod, because they are not anywhere near the path of our highest good. We get to decide if we want to build momentum that will take us to the greatest of possibilities. I think she is not asking us to ask ourselves if we are good enough. She is asking us to consider how else we might become even better at keeping hold of the strength of the iron rod as we travel this life. She is reminding us that real principles bring real consequences, and we can choose which we want. That the happiness the world advertises is not the real joy and strength of trusting the strength of the path the Lord has built for us. And in my life experience it has been true. There is great joy in knowing you can travel very far and faster with great strength when you know the basic premises of the plan of salvation, leaving you free to create as you will. There is great power in trusting God and knowing the path, while you forge your way. It is indeed one of the joys of my life, and a strength I depend on. It's fun to create with confidence in knowing the Lord has your back, or in this instance, you have the power of the steady strength of a dependable path, while you decide what you will transport and create. That is how I see this analogy. Just my two cents. 

Enjoyed reading this.  

One request to help with my concentration issues is if you could in the future break up your posts into smaller paragraphs.  My eyes tend not to track well when the block gets bigger than ten lines or so.

[Scott Lloyd]

17 minutes ago, Calm said:

Enjoyed reading this.  

One request to help with my concentration issues is if you could in the future break up your posts into smaller paragraphs.  My eyes tend not to track well when the block gets bigger than ten lines or so.

In newspaper writing, paragraphs are seldom longer than one or two sentences. 

[Bernard Gui]

11 hours ago, california boy said:

And you know this because?

Because I quoted the scriptures that define those concepts, explained my understanding of them in detail. If you let go of the Rod, the Liahona stops working. It’s crystal clear. 

Edited July 16, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Hamba Tuhan]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

If you let go of the Rod, the Liahona stops working.

This is one of the most important lessons in the Book of Mormon's accounts of the Liahona. Without diligence and faith, it was worthless. People might just as well have been having a conversation with themselves instead. In some cases, I think that may be what some people prefer ...

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Because I quoted the scriptures that define those concepts, explained my understanding of them in detail. If you let go of the Rod, the Liahona stops working. It’s crystal clear. 

I think you are misrepresenting what I have been talking about.  I never said one should chuck the scriptures.  We are talking about how we approach religion.  I think anyone who has been on this board for a while can see two basic groups when discussing just about any issue.  One group is very ridged and their answer to every issue is to fall back on some statement a prophet either past or present has said. and that is their answer.  They say things like' I'll stick with the prophets you can choose otherwise if you wish.

The other group looks thinks the answers are not so clear cut.  They are unwilling to simply take the words of a prophet and think no further on the matter.  They think there is more to the story than a set answer given 20 years ago, or 100 years ago or 6000 years ago.  It is not about what someone said in the past, it is about what God says to them today.  The scriptures are a tool, not a final word.

Some see clear guidance in the scriptures themselves.  Clearly all that commit adultery should be stoned.  Anyone picking corn on Sunday is breaking the Sabbath.  That is what God said.  It is crystal clear as you say.

In our day, we don't pick up stones.  And we are allowed to go grab an ear of corn out of the garden.  But do we let someone in a dance that isn't wearing the prescribed outfit when the dress code has been clearly given by the brethren in SLC?  What if they have already been warned, and still show up inappropriately?  Is it wrong to forbid the baptizing of a child because the parents of that child are gay?  Should we question such a policy or is President Nelson telling us it is revelation good enough for us?  Did God clearly tell Joseph Smith to marry his teenage wives behind Emma's back or perhaps he got that wrong.  Let's sing "Praise to the Man" and put any doubts behind us.

Pick just about any subject that comes up on this thread and you will see different ways of approaching the issues.  We all know the players.  We usually know their responses before they give them.  Both sides use the scriptures to support their positions.  Read through this thread, you will find that each approach supports their position with scripture.  It is how we use that scriptures that makes all the difference.  Who is right and who is wrong on what approach is best depends entirely on what group you fall into.  Hold to the rod?  Look to the Liahona for guidance.  Which one dominates your approach to deciding the issues we discuss.

[Hamba Tuhan]

37 minutes ago, california boy said:

The other group looks [sic] thinks the answers are not so clear cut.

So they might question, perhaps even reject, attempts to divide the world into 'two basic groups'?

[california boy]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

So they might question, perhaps even reject, attempts to divide the world into 'two basic groups'?

This is actually what I wrote

Quote

I think anyone who has been on this board for a while can see two basic groups when discussing just about any issue. 

Nothing is black and white.  It is a generalization of approaches. I said a lot of things in my post.  How is picking one sentence, taking it out of context, and then reading it in the most narrow of terms, a good faith response to the whole intent of my post?  

Of course, if that is the only disagreement you have with what I wrote, I hope I have now cleared that up for you.

[Hamba Tuhan]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

I hope I have now cleared that up for you.

I'm not sure what you've cleared up for me. At all.

[Kenngo1969]

Another reason occurs to me why one should not attempt to dichotomize the Liahona on one hand, and the Iron Rod on the other.  The first, although it worked by faith (see 1 Nephi 16:28), is an actual, tangible, physical object: It exists in actual space, and one could pick it up, hold it, and, at least to a certain extent, manipulate it. 

According to one source I have consulted, the three witnesses saw it.  See Jannalee Sandau (February 19, 2018), "The Sword of Laban and the Liahona: What Happened to Them After Joseph Smith Unearthed Them?", http://www.ldsliving.com/The-Sword-of-Laban-and-Liahona-What-Happened-to-Them-After-Joseph-Smith-Unearthed-Them/s/87649 , last accessed July 16, 2019.

The second, however, although in some ways we are encouraged to use it in the same way the Nephites used the Liahona (we are to "manipulate it" by grasping it firmly, by not letting go, and so on), is purely a metaphor: The only place anyone ever sees is in a dream or a vision (see, 1 Nephi 8:19-24 and 1 Nephi 11:25).