LGBTQ+ Question

[MiserereNobis]

On 12/13/2018 at 4:22 PM, lightparticle said:

Do you know how it feels to bargain with God over and over and over again, doing everything that you believe God requires, only to continue to struggle against yourself?

Absolutely I know how it feels. We all have crosses to bear. To quote/paraphrase Bagger Vance: Ain’t a soul on God’s green Earth that don’t have a burden he don’t understand. 

I’m not taking a position on your situation. Just don’t think that others of us don’t have monumental spiritual struggles, either. 

[flameburns623]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

At some point we have to draw the line at what is a credible scenario.

Something like that, I am sure would have to be judge by a general authority or even the first presidency.

Not very likely to happen.

There is no need for a policy on something so remote a possibility.

On the other hand the only way that what you are suggesting could happen that I can see is if there had been a sex change operation. People who have sex change operations are excommunicated, at least as a matter of policy. Of course there are always extenuating circumstances.....

 

I was proposing the sex change operation had occurred long prior to membership in the LDS church (I believe I first heard of such surgery while still in high school--I am 58 now, so more than forty years ago);  had subsequently married, that the decision to join the LDS Church was so long afterwards that the couple felt no reason nor obligation to mention it. 

We have not always had an explicit policy regarding transgender issues.  It wasn't even an issue of concern in the 1970's, as best I recollect. People requiring such were mainly looked upon with some sympathy.

It is the politicization of gay marriage in the 1980's 1990's,  the perception (by some) that radical social change was being crammed down the collective American throats; the perception of others that the Great American Middle were suffering a dearth of empathy or compassion; which eventually made it needful for religious people to weigh in and explicitly take sides. This and several other things which magnified ideological polarization in American society.  

I don't think my scenario is so farfetched as you deem it.  Someone conceivably could have transitioned before this was a hot issue, and joined the Church without too many hard questions asked. Only now, as things have grown white-hot,  might they feel need to come clean about it. 

[carbon dioxide]

On 12/14/2018 at 8:33 PM, flameburns623 said:

So: a person joins the Church as a man and receives the priesthood, he marries a woman and they are sealed ... and decades later it is learned that decades prior to his entry into the Church records he was born a woman. 

But he is in the Church records as a man. 

You're saying those records will not change?

Did you miss the point of how I framed my question?

Yes I misread how you phrased it.  My bad.  In that case the records would change.  Personally I have a hard time seeing that happening  much because in my experience of seeing transgendered people, they just look odd to me.  It happens quite a bit while look at news articles.  First I will see a picture of somebody and there is something about them that does not look right.  Then I read the article and bang it says they are transgendered.  Then it all clicks with me why they did not look right in the picture.  Men and women have different body types.  Men and women are far more different than just a few body parts.  Especially when it comes to height.  If a 6 foot 6 inch person is walking around and superficially appears to be a woman, most people are going to look closer because that is just not normal.  Very few women are that tall.   There are some things one can do surgically but others that one can not do.  Usually what is being presented to me what does not fit what I am actually seeing.    I would think that in many cases questions would be raised at least in the minds of people and they might passively look into things further. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[Bernard Gui]

On 12/14/2018 at 7:33 PM, flameburns623 said:

So: a person joins the Church as a man and receives the priesthood, he marries a woman and they are sealed ... and decades later it is learned that decades prior to his entry into the Church records he was born a woman. 

But he is in the Church records as a man. 

You're saying those records will not change?

Did you miss the point of how I framed my question?

Would the woman not figure out the truth?

[flameburns623]

4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Would the woman not figure out the truth?

His wife? 

I assumed in my original question that this happened BEFORE sex-change surgery was so controversial, in churches or anywhere else, that she married in full knowledge of the situation and in agreement that it wasn't something needing to be advertised to the world; and finally that they joined the LDS Church some time afterwards,  and before the issue moved to a front-stage topic. 

I'll say again: while I wasn't LDS in the 1970's, I seem to recall these transition surgeries started way back then, and were not a heated issue so much. A lot has happened since then to make sexual politics more of a thing than it once was.  

Edited December 16, 2018 by flameburns623

[FunOnlineMan]

15 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Yes I misread how you phrased it.  My bad.  In that case the records would change.  Personally I have a hard time seeing that happening….

 

I know I probably get out of line from time to time in here, but you’re on a pretty thin branch with this post, man.

Maybe re-read your personal findings again from another person’s perspective. To give you the benefit of the doubt, maybe I just misunderstood like 10 straight sentences up there, so it just needs edited for clarity.

Maybe just edit that for clarity. 

Edited December 16, 2018 by FunOnlineMan

[CV75]

21 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

I was proposing the sex change operation had occurred long prior to membership in the LDS church (I believe I first heard of such surgery while still in high school--I am 58 now, so more than forty years ago);  had subsequently married, that the decision to join the LDS Church was so long afterwards that the couple felt no reason nor obligation to mention it. 

We have not always had an explicit policy regarding transgender issues.  It wasn't even an issue of concern in the 1970's, as best I recollect. People requiring such were mainly looked upon with some sympathy.

It is the politicization of gay marriage in the 1980's 1990's,  the perception (by some) that radical social change was being crammed down the collective American throats; the perception of others that the Great American Middle were suffering a dearth of empathy or compassion; which eventually made it needful for religious people to weigh in and explicitly take sides. This and several other things which magnified ideological polarization in American society.  

I don't think my scenario is so farfetched as you deem it.  Someone conceivably could have transitioned before this was a hot issue, and joined the Church without too many hard questions asked. Only now, as things have grown white-hot,  might they feel need to come clean about it. 

I agree it could come up. The handbook is a general guidance and doesn't necessarily address complex exceptional circumstances. If the couple's motivation is to abide the Lord's will, I'm sure they will find it in confiding in their priesthood leader. The more complex the situation, the more involvement there will be from those who have the keys of revelation at higher levels.

[Bernard Gui]

6 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

His wife? 

I assumed in my original question that this happened BEFORE sex-change surgery was so controversial, in churches or anywhere else, that she married in full knowledge of the situation and in agreement that it wasn't something needing to be advertised to the world; and finally that they joined the LDS Church some time afterwards,  and before the issue moved to a front-stage topic. 

I'll say again: while I wasn't LDS in the 1970's, I seem to recall these transition surgeries started way back then, and were not a heated issue so much. A lot has happened since then to make sexual politics more of a thing than it once was.  

You said....

Quote

So (1) a person joins the Church as a man and receives the priesthood, (2) he marries a woman and (3) they are sealed ... and (4) decades later it is learned that decades prior to his entry into the Church records he was born a woman. 

Seems like different sequence than your original, which is why I brought up the question, but maybe I misunderstood.

I was in the Church in the 70s. I don’t recall it being a public issue.

[flameburns623]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

You said....

Seems like different sequence than your original, which is why I brought up the question, but maybe I misunderstood.

I was in the Church in the 70s. I don’t recall it being a public issue.

The first sex change operation happened in the 1930's, male-to-female. I couldn't find a date for the first female to male operations, only that such surgery was prohibitively expensive "until" the 1970's. 

It probably was NOT  an issue for Mormons in the Seventies.  I was a teen,  but my guess is that the whole country figured such things would be so rare as to be of only trivial interest.  

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/13/2018 at 2:49 PM, FunOnlineMan said:

Hi. 

Could a trans man be sealed to a trans woman in the temple? 

Sure. Why not?

THe onus or crux of the matter is on indiviudal integriy. I doubt the interviews for Temple Recommends ask about biological vs. (other) gener identification or surgeries

[FunOnlineMan]

4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Sure. Why not?

THe onus or crux of the matter is on indiviudal integriy. I doubt the interviews for Temple Recommends ask about biological vs. (other) gener identification or surgeries

Maybe breeze through the other answers. They supplied some “why nots.”

[CA Steve]

14 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

The first sex change operation happened in the 1930's, male-to-female. I couldn't find a date for the first female to male operations, only that such surgery was prohibitively expensive "until" the 1970's. 

It probably was NOT  an issue for Mormons in the Seventies.  I was a teen,  but my guess is that the whole country figured such things would be so rare as to be of only trivial interest.  

I remember what went on in 1970's with Renee Richards enough that I could recall her name 40 year later. So there was some high profile publicity even back then regarding this kind of operation.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, CA Steve said:

I remember what went on in 1970's with Renee Richards enough that I could recall her name 40 year later. So there was some high profile publicity even back then regarding this kind of operation.

 

Also Christine Jorgensen in the 50s:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christine_Jorgensen

also:

https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-20544095

Edited December 17, 2018 by Calm

[nuclearfuels]

18 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Maybe breeze through the other answers. They supplied some “why nots.”

Yeah. THis question isn't worth reasoning through as that presumes some degree of logic from the one asking it

[Stargazer]

On ‎12‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:01 PM, FunOnlineMan said:

 

I know I probably get out of line from time to time in here, but you’re on a pretty thin branch with this post, man.

 

Why is the branch thin, man?

[FunOnlineMan]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Why is the branch thin, man?

Do you mean why shouldn’t people say insensitive things about people based entirely on their looks? Or why is the horse {swear word} he said insensitive?

I guess a strong belief in traditional gender roles might trump belief in loving your neighbor as yourself. I’m a bit out of practice with my Christianity. 

[FunOnlineMan]

3 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Yeah. THis question isn't worth reasoning through as that presumes some degree of logic from the one asking it

So, it’s worth answering, just not worth being reasoned through? Is that what I’m reading?

[Stargazer]

5 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Do you mean why shouldn’t people say insensitive things about people based entirely on their looks? Or why is the horse {swear word} he said insensitive?

I guess a strong belief in traditional gender roles might trump belief in loving your neighbor as yourself. I’m a bit out of practice with my Christianity. 

He related his observation that some females who transition to males still look female, and vice versa.  It's a fact, even if it is an uncomfortable fact..  If one states facts it is not Christian?  And @carbon dioxide's  manner of writing was not disrespectful.  It was neutral enough, I thought. Or do you disagree?  How is it supposed to be said then?  Or is it not supposed to be said?  Silence is preferable to stating an uncomfortable observation?

So, how politically correct do you want the conversation to become, anyway?  All those who believe in traditional gender roles are supposed to shut up about it?  Since that's the subject of the thread it makes for a rather monotonal discussion.

 

 

Edited December 18, 2018 by Stargazer

[Gray]

On 12/14/2018 at 10:08 AM, pogi said:

Nothing is written - just common sense stuff.  

Is it really? I found it remarkably circuitous and ad hoc.

 

On 12/14/2018 at 10:08 AM, pogi said:

 

Or, are you suggesting that more caution shouldn't be used (not only spiritually but medically) in such surgeries when the biological gender is certain vs. people with a disorder of sexual development?

I think a case by case approach is appropriate vs some blanket policy.     

I'm suggesting no serious spiritual wisdom has been developed on this matter in the LDS tradition. But it behooves us to listen to the experiences of those in this situation. Their feelings certainly seem to be in line with Mormon notions of spiritual intuition.

[carbon dioxide]

On 12/16/2018 at 7:00 PM, flameburns623 said:

The first sex change operation happened in the 1930's, male-to-female. .  

That assumes that one can actually change their sex.  Many would assert that changing ones sex through an operation is equivalent to changing ones race or species through such a procedure.  The law might give legitimacy to such an idea but one could pass a law saying the sky is orange or yellow during the daytime.   Changing civil law does not change reality.

[FunOnlineMan]

On 12/18/2018 at 2:54 AM, Stargazer said:

He related his observation that some females who transition to males still look female, and vice versa.  It's a fact, even if it is an uncomfortable fact.. 

Go back and look at what he wrote. I don’t think saying people look odd or that they don’t look right are facts. Those are opinions. 

Quote

If one states facts it is not Christian?

I’d say attempting to pass bigoted beliefs off as facts is unmistakably Christian. 

Quote

  And @carbon dioxide's  manner of writing was not disrespectful.  It was neutral enough, I thought. Or do you disagree?  How is it supposed to be said then?  Or is it not supposed to be said?  Silence is preferable to stating an uncomfortable observation?

The words “odd” and “not right” aren’t neutral where I come from. 

Quote

So, how politically correct do you want the conversation to become, anyway?  All those who believe in traditional gender roles are supposed to shut up about it?  Since that's the subject of the thread it makes for a rather monotonal discussion.

For a member of a church that recently decided their own preferred name—that they spent a lot of money to market—is now a slur, you seem reluctant to join the politically correct camp. 

I wish Jesus had said something about how we’re supposed to treat others. That would sure come in handy for these types of issues, imo

 

Edited December 20, 2018 by FunOnlineMan

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/18/2018 at 12:07 AM, FunOnlineMan said:

So, it’s worth answering, just not worth being reasoned through? Is that what I’m reading?

There is no reasoning in the OP's question.

Assuming I should use reason in my response implies reason in the original question.

If I, a trans-species humanoid being, wanted to get married in the Temple to another trans-species humanoid being, would that be allowed?

See?

[FunOnlineMan]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

There is no reasoning in the OP's question.

Assuming I should use reason in my response implies reason in the original question.

If I, a trans-species humanoid being, wanted to get married in the Temple to another trans-species humanoid being, would that be allowed?

See?

Well, there’s certainly no shortage of posts with no reasoning in here lately. 

 

And to answer your questions: Yes and no. 

[flameburns623]

On 12/20/2018 at 7:32 AM, FunOnlineMan said:

Go back and look at what he wrote. I don’t think saying people look odd or that they don’t look right are facts. Those are opinions. 

I’d say attempting to pass bigoted beliefs off as facts is unmistakably Christian. 

The words “odd” and “not right” aren’t neutral where I come from. 

 

 

Once upon a time,  there were online photo quizzes where you guessed at which photos or videos were of trans people and which were of non-trans people.

Seems to not be many of those now. This one is funny. The tall redhead is picked most often as being trans, when actually it's the dark-haired one (who apparently is conservative and has some sort of following.  I evidently live a cloistered life,  as I was unaware who she is).  

https://youtu.be/AiVgKWOClX8

Edited December 21, 2018 by flameburns623

[Tacenda]

Hopefully FunOnlineMan won't mind my posting this here, just thought it interesting that it was posted on LDSLiving! Sometimes I wonder if whomever is in charge of the articles being posted is a secretly questioning LDS. 

http://www.ldsliving.com/Studio-C-Member-Comes-Out-As-Gay-Shares-Touching-Message-for-LGBT-Youth/s/89990/?utm_source=ldsliving&utm_medium=sidebar&utm_campaign=popular

Especially with this statement:

"Despite knowing that he would face this, Harkey eventually made the decision for a beautiful reason: to help LGBT youth in Utah. 

". . . did you know that Utah has the highest suicide rate amongst LGBT teens? Did you know there are soo many people in this community that are soo scared and unsupported that they feel the BEST alternative to living is death? So many people are living quiet lives afraid and unsure of themselves and I’m coming out for them. 

"I’m coming out so they know they’re not alone. I’m coming out in hopes that at least one LGBT teen feels like they have support. I’m coming out because I have a unique position in this community and no matter how much criticism comes my way it will be worth it if just one person avoids suicide or just feels better about themself."

And this message has been met with love and positivity for the most part as friends have commented on his post: 

"Thank you, Stacey. I have had several students come out to me. I have been honored to be a friend to them. You will have unique power to build love and acceptance. Blessings!"  

"So much love to you, man! As a fellow queer BYU grad it's so awesome to see others being authentically themselves out in the open—and especially in your position of influence. You are so courageous, and lives will be blessed because of it." 

But his message carried another sweet message—one that came from Harkey's experience as a member of the Church wrestling with his identity. 

"I’m not ashamed of who I am," Harkey shares. 

"A little while back I found myself at an ultimate low, praying and begging God for answers, pleading for direction and guidance. In that moment I felt so much peace and love. I instantly felt like this part of myself that I’ve grown to demonize is an integral part of who I am. This part of myself that I’ve spent my whole life fighting isn’t my enemy. This part of myself that I’ve shoved into a dark dungeon deserves light. It was the sweetest feeling and it taught me that God expects me to be who he made me to be and expects me to develop myself and magnify who I am.

"You are soo important! Believe me when I say that you are needed. This community needs you and the beautiful hues you bring to it. If you need/want to talk Please text me/call me/message me. No matter if you’re gay or straight come talk to me if you have any questions and it’ll stay between us."

Edited December 26, 2018 by Tacenda