LGBTQ+ Question

[Kenngo1969]

I'm not sure I have anything substantive to add to the discussion, but it is nice to see you, Merry Mushroom.  

[FunOnlineMan]

2 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

I'm not sure I have anything substantive to add to the discussion, but it is nice to see you, Merry Mushroom.  

Nobody has ever accused you of such. 

[FunOnlineMan]

6 hours ago, bluebell said:

No, I was thinking more about genetic norms. 

Oh, I thought you placed the onus on how one chooses to live. The walk like a man, talk like a man routine. 

Isn’t their adoption or rejection of societal gender norms the only issue if they’ve done nothing medically to pursue their desired gender?

[FunOnlineMan]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

If it was possible, In the temple, the whole trans thing would be put aside.  The trans woman would be the man and the trans man would be the woman.  A trans man could not assume the position of Adam and a trans woman could not assume the position of eve. 

So, yes. 

Thanks. 

[FunOnlineMan]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Sure.  We have the same form in spirit as in the body.  We are resurrected with the same basic body though in perfect form so everything will be the same.    All man made alterations like tattoos, implants, and reassignment surgery stuff does not come with the resurrection.

So, why is there any importance placed on what a person has done, whether through surgery or hormone therapy prior to their baptism?

[Glenn101]

8 hours ago, lightparticle said:

Wow. Thank you for “mansplaining” how I feel. Please don’t make clinical diagnoses of something you have no knowledge of. You boiled it down to one thing (mental illness), then contradicted your own statement by saying there are too many variables to be one thing.

Newsflash: I’m transgender and I’m perfectly capable of telling you who I am, what I’ve been through, and precisely what drove me to suicidal ideation. Rather than telling me why I feel the way I do, how about you pay attention to me telling you why I feel the way that I do. I promise that it won’t hurt to learn from me.

Please do not fall back upon a "mansplaining" pejorative to try to make a point. That is pointless. My point is based upon the consensus in the psychiatric community. I did hear you on why you feel the way that you do. But do you know why you feel that you are not of the gender indicated by your biological make up? I have had to face my own set of problems and recognize them in order to get help. It took over five years of therapy for me to get to the point that I could adequately deal with my problems and not be a threat to myself or to anyone else. That was before I was diagnosed with an incurable disease that has already claimed one of my friends and a couple of other people that I know. Medication has put it a bay, but there is no way to predict if and when it will return. The medication becomes less effective with every onslaught. I know that my situation is not the same as yours, but I do know some about mental illness.

The problem that transgender people have as well as homosexuals who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the teachings of the church on gender and the eternal family. If the church is true, those teachings will not change. Whatever the truth is, eventually we will all have to deal with it.

Glenn

[pogi]

14 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Their spirits, then, has a corresponding  genotype and phenotypes?

We have no idea how to tell if/how a spirit corresponds with the biological phenotype/genotype.  The point being that more caution is used when the biological gender is certain then when there is a disorder of sex development (DSD or intersex).  

[bluebell]

6 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Oh, I thought you placed the onus on how one chooses to live. The walk like a man, talk like a man routine. 

Isn’t their adoption or rejection of societal gender norms the only issue if they’ve done nothing medically to pursue their desired gender?

As far as pretense goes, I was talking about someone being genetically one gender but living as if they are genetically a different gender.  That is the pretense I was talking about.

[CV75]

20 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Hi. 

Could a trans man be sealed to a trans woman in the temple? 

I suppose the couple can do things to make it happen.

I think the attitude of the Church is that the couple wait until their sexual identity is mutually confirmed to the parties involved (both the couple and the recommend issuers) by the Holy Ghost, whether that confirmation occur in this life or the next. Some mysterious of life remain unveiled, but our policies allow involvement by the First Presidency to resolve whatever might be.

[pogi]

13 hours ago, Gray said:

For it is written:

 

Nothing is written - just common sense stuff.  Or, are you suggesting that more caution shouldn't be used (not only spiritually but medically) in such surgeries when the biological gender is certain vs. people with a disorder of sexual development?

I think a case by case approach is appropriate vs some blanket policy.     

[CV75]

19 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Would hormone therapy count as reassignment? Either way, if they just identify as trans, does that in some way preclude them?

The recommend questions do not get into gender identity. If one or both of the couple interjects the question into the interview, things could get complicated because it indicates that the person has not fully resolved his or her identity as a spouse in terms of the temple covenant, which is very important. In the temple, physical and spiritual things are brought together, so if there is confusion, resistance or controversy over which side of the alter a person is to take, they should not participate. If the couple is truly comfortable and authentic as a man and a woman, it wouldn’t come up.

Edited December 14, 2018 by CV75

[CV75]

19 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

I don't follow.  Where is the deceit?

If a member identifies as trans, but doesn't have reassignment surgery, what's the problem.  Why would we treat trans members any differently than our gay brothers and sisters who are welcomed to the temple with open arms if they are worthy to enter?  If someone lives the word of wisdom, law of chastity, etc... I don't see how/why identifying as another gender would disqualify them from the Temple. 

I think it has to do with which side of the altar to take, which is germane to the covenants made. If there is confusion or controversy, that needs to be settled to ervyone's mutual satisfaction first.

[CV75]

18 hours ago, CA Steve said:

An adult seeking gender reassignment surgery is problematic.

And yet a newborn whose gender is uncertain, gets surgery to assign it a sex, a decision in which it had no input, is not problematic.

Anyone else see a problem with this?

For better or worse, I believe the principle in D&C 83:4-5 applies.

[CV75]

18 hours ago, 6EQUJ5 said:

Worthiness is between an individual and the Lord, of course.  But gender reassignment surgery is against Church policy and may be reason to excommunicate someone IIRC.  Perhaps others can clarify.

And the interviewing individual who must make that determination according to the keys and the Spirit.

[CV75]

18 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Thanks. 

I wish it gave reason for why it’s seen as such a grievous offense, though.

Not an offense so much as a complicating factor for reasons described above.

[CA Steve]

2 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

The problem that transgender people have as well as homosexuals who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is the teachings of the church on gender and the eternal family. If the church is true, those teachings will not change. Whatever the truth is, eventually we will all have to deal with it.

Glenn

The Church does not have to change it's teaching on gender as an eternal component, it could simply acknowledge that there are times here in this earthly life where the distinction between male and female gender has not yet been decided and that the Church is fine with leaving that decision here in this life up to the person in question.

[CV75]

16 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Spirit genitalia?

We see from D&C 138:39 that post-mortal spirits have gender. From D&C 76:34, we have some recognition that God has spirit sons and daughters that are begotten in the flesh.

[bluebell]

14 hours ago, lightparticle said:

How does one determine this? There have been cases of XX males and XY females, and their bodies function normally. There are a myriad of genetic abnormalities that invalidate this as an argument. These are the conditions that we know how to define and identify. How many other possibilities exist?

I'm not making an argument. I was only clarifying what I meant by 'pretend'. 

Quote

In any of these cases, not one of them actually defines a single aspect of a person's spirit, and to take it one step further, none of this permits anyone to treat a transgender person in any different manner than how Christ would.

Our doctrinal understanding and beliefs are different, and I have no interest in arguing or debating that with you.  I completely agree that transgendered people should not be treated in a different manner than how Christ would, but since that wasn't the discussion that you and I were having, it seems a bit irrelevant and like I'm being asked to answer for baggage from other conversations you've been a part of but I haven't.

I understand why this is a soapbox issue for you (and others), I really do.  If there is emotional baggage involved, I get that too (I've got my own, and my own soapbox issues).  But, soapbox issues are really really difficult to discuss online, because one side is so emotionally invested while the other side is not coming from the same emotional place.   In my experience, when people are coming at a topic from such different angles, it doesn't often go well and causes more harm than good.  So I'm going to back out of this conversation and leave everyone else to it.  

I wish you well.

 

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, lightparticle said:

Again, I would have to disagree with you, solely because your statement is based on the assumption that all who are transgender have equal access to hormones, surgery, and such. Unfortunately, the deck is definitely stacked against us in every way.

First, when someone comes out as transgender, the typical reaction for many is that the person is lying, was abused somehow, or that they are incapable of knowing who they really are. Medical intervention is expensive. Insurance doesn't usually cover any of it, and politicians get involved to keep it that way. In addition, the transgender person is required to convince a therapist, a general practitioner, an endocrinologist, and others that they are who they say they are. Then if they succeed, they need the therapist to actually be sympathetic to their cause or the therapist won't provide the correct documentation to actually get the medical interventions -- that is if there is a provider nearby that can start the process. If there isn't, they're stuck. Even if they have a provider, that single point of failure can now declare their religious opposition to it and deny what amounts to life-saving interventions. If the transgender person is a minor, then parents can stop the whole thing and the person then must go through the hell that is puberty in a body they are already struggling with.

Religions ostracize us and convince their followers we are apostate and evil sinners -- servants of the devil. So, we lose friends and family.

If we are employed and the employer finds out, it is still legal in dozens of states to terminate our employment just because we are transgender and for no other reason. If that occurs, we also lose insurance, making it even more difficult to afford medical interventions. Without employment, we crash into poverty, forcing us into jobs that are dangerous, if they don't discriminate against us in the first place.

Politicians make us sound like perverts whose only purpose is to peek at you while you use the restroom.

The media portrays us as criminals, sexual deviants, showpieces, and freaks.

In the current environment, when one comes out as transgender, most of the world stops seeing us as a "who", and only sees us as a "what". Our condition suddenly defines us and we become nothing more than a subject worthy only of discussion by people who have the power to decide our fate.

When my ward found out about me, I was publicly berated on Facebook by people I trusted as my brothers and sisters in Christ, but at the first test of their love toward me, they turned on me immediately. I was accused of bringing evil into the church and that I didn't belong there. Some implied that I was a threat to their children.

The inability to afford medical interventions doesn't make one any less of who they say they are. The inability to break through all of the obstacles doesn't make the person a pretender. When the whole world is against you, you can only do the best you can until something gives way. Unfortunately, when everything you need is held back by the people who control it, that don't understand you and don't want to understand you, can you perhaps begin to see why we react the way we do when people make claims about pretending, insincerity, or the lack of taking medical steps?

I'm fine if you disagree with me.  I clarified my use of the word 'pretend' and, from my perspective, there isn't anything else that I want to say on the topic.  

Welcome to the board, by the way!

[clarkgoble]

17 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

But you’re blaming their suicide on their choice to get the surgery. I think that’s a gross oversimplification of the actual problems they would be dealing with.

Again that wasn't me, although I think increased suicide after surgery is indicative of a problem. But I wouldn't blame the suicide on the surgery. Suicide is almost certainly a complex issue. It could just as easily be tied to expectations that surgery would solve the problem and it doesn't (for a wide variety of reasons not the least of which it doesn't solve all the biological issues and thus isn't the silver bullet some see it as).

17 hours ago, JAHS said:

I am guessing all we can do is wait for the resurrection where I assume all those whose gender was in question in this life will be corrected and their resurrected bodies will match what their spirits were in the pre-mortal world.
Makes for a hard trial in this life though.  

I'm not sure that's a fully satisfactory answer though - especially if there is persecution involved.

17 hours ago, lightparticle said:

Serious question: Are you saying that I shouldn't trust my personal revelation of my actual gender?

Nope. Never even addressed this. I was speaking of the tensions in the general case. Are you saying everyone who feels transexual has an incompatible spirit gender?

17 hours ago, lightparticle said:

If we truly believe that "wickedness never was happiness", then why is it so hard to believe that my transition and acceptance has finally brought me happiness with who I am as well as improved my life?

Again I have no trouble with that. I think the general case is far more complicated though. Clearly not everyone feels the way you do after the transition.

Edited December 14, 2018 by clarkgoble

[pogi]

22 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

The Church does not have to change it's teaching on gender as an eternal component, it could simply acknowledge that there are times here in this earthly life where the distinction between male and female gender has not yet been decided and that the Church is fine with leaving that decision here in this life up to the person in question.

I completely agree in cases where there is a disorder of sexual development - the decision should be up to the person.  However, where there is no apparent disorder and a person is healthy specimen of a biological male or female in every definable way, then there is some question as to whether a female spirit is in a male body, or if something else is going on.  Where there are potentially devastating emotional/spiritual and medical consequences of surgery, extreme caution is warranted.  I think any blanket policy would be a bad idea. 

[california boy]

14 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Sure.  We have the same form in spirit as in the body.  We are resurrected with the same basic body though in perfect form so everything will be the same.    All man made alterations like tattoos, implants, and reassignment surgery stuff does not come with the resurrection.

With this statement, you are also stating that some spirits are both male and female if the spirit always matches the body in gender.  There are actually more intersexed babies born than members of the church.  That tells you how many spirits are actually both male and female

[CA Steve]

2 minutes ago, pogi said:

I completely agree in cases where there is a disorder of sexual development - the decision should be up to the person.  However, where there is no apparent disorder and a person is healthy specimen of a biological male or female in every definable way, then there is some question as to whether a female spirit is in a male body, or if something else is going on.  Where there are potentially devastating emotional/spiritual and medical consequences of surgery, extreme caution is warranted.  I think any blanket policy would be a bad idea. 

Pogi,

Always the voice of reason.

Now we are getting into issues for which the church is ill prepared. If, as it appears you and I agree, there are cases where it gender is unclear (I don't like the word disorder as it has a negative connotation) does this mean in order to participate in the temple, for example, such a person would have to have medical file in hand when they went into a temple interview? I hardly think that bishops and stake presidents are qualified to make such evaluations nor should they be asked to do so. Frankly I don't even think a qualified medical person should be the one to look at such a person and tell them what gender they are. 

And here's an interesting question:

If a person had gender assignment surgery as a new born that assigned them the wrong gender, is homosexual behavior later on in life still a sin?

Frankly as a Church we really don't understand this whole gender identity question and yet we have absolute rules governing the actions of people who are dealing with those very same questions.

[california boy]

16 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Pogi,

Always the voice of reason.

Now we are getting into issues for which the church is ill prepared. If, as it appears you and I agree, there are cases where it gender is unclear (I don't like the word disorder as it has a negative connotation) does this mean in order to participate in the temple, for example, such a person would have to have medical file in hand when they went into a temple interview? I hardly think that bishops and stake presidents are qualified to make such evaluations nor should they be asked to do so. Frankly I don't even think a qualified medical person should be the one to look at such a person and tell them what gender they are. 

And here's an interesting question:

If a person had gender assignment surgery as a new born that assigned them the wrong gender, is homosexual behavior later on in life still a sin?

Frankly as a Church we really don't understand this whole gender identity question and yet we have absolute rules governing the actions of people who are dealing with those very same questions.

You bring up some really difficult questions that the church has no answers for.  Is all the church has is how to exclude, not include..  If an intersexed child grows up without any surgery, what side of the endowment room would they sit?  Or would they just not be allowed in the temple.

[JAHS]

41 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

18 hours ago, JAHS said:

I am guessing all we can do is wait for the resurrection where I assume all those whose gender was in question in this life will be corrected and their resurrected bodies will match what their spirits were in the pre-mortal world.
Makes for a hard trial in this life though.  

I'm not sure that's a fully satisfactory answer though - especially if there is persecution involved.

Very unsatisfactory. It would take a lot of faith for someone living with it in this life to wait for that to happen.