LGBTQ+ Question

[FunOnlineMan]

 

2 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

That suggests the presumption that feelings are always correct and reflect actual gender are problematic. (And in many cases where parents are pressuring children probably socially complex.

Not being able to trust our feelings is an interesting position for an LDS person to take.

I think there is a lot going on for anyone in such a position, though, and I think it’s probably not a good idea to adopt a notion that suicide rates among certain groups can be used as an indication of whether their other specifit choices were good or bad.

[smac97]

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

In comparison with haling their eternal progression, I think it’s pretty minor. 

You could apply that sort of reductionism to just about anything.

"In comparison with halting her eternal progression, her periodic infidelity to her husband is pretty minor."

"In comparison with halting his eternal progression, his occasional physical abuse of his children is pretty minor."

"In comparison with halting his eternal progression, his frequent use of cocaine and meth is pretty minor."

And so on.

Obedience and repentance are important precepts in the Church.  

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

Quote

Have you ever wondered why the suicide rate for post-gender-reassignment-surgery people is so astronomically high?  (See, e.g., here, here, here, here).  

I have wondered that. I think we probably disagree on why. 

Okay.  I think it's safe to say, though, that gender reassignment surgery has more effects on a person's life than just being "a collection of scars."  That's my point.

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

Quote

As for being sealed to "someone they love," I'm not sure what you mean here.  In the Church's paradigm, gender is not a malleable thing.  Moreover, "{g}ender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

I am not applying any special meaning. I mean it like I mean it for any other couple. 

Any other heterosexual couple?  The vagueness here, given the context, is problematic.

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

Because it puts actions taken before baptism in a position of great power.

Yes.  That can happen.  A person can engage in serious conduct that may impair his/her ability to obtain membership in the Church.

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

What other pre-re-birth actions warrant such extreme actions?

"Pre-re-birth actions?"  What does that mean?

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

And does an elective surgery belong in the same category?

I suspect not.  Gender reassignment surgery is, I think, uniquely problematic.

Thanks,

-Smac

[FunOnlineMan]

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

My memory says Pres. Oaks said awhile back that we don't know enough about transgenderism to really say anything in general about it and that it would be handled on a case by case basis. Recently I have only found the comment on a proLGBT site, so I can't confirm it as valid, but the minimal experience I have had supports that (decision isn't automatic by local leaders if the individual wants an exception).

I’ve also read that article. I’d hoped someone here had a link to the source. 

 

27 minutes ago, Calm said:

However, I believe the standard in the past was if sexual reassignment was chosen as an adult, temple recommends are most likely not going to be offered.  However, this can be appealed to the First Presidency.

That makes this such a peculiarly serious issue for it to remain under the prophetic tab “No Comment.”

 

Also, hi. Nice to read your posts again. 

[CA Steve]

An adult seeking gender reassignment surgery is problematic.

And yet a newborn whose gender is uncertain, gets surgery to assign it a sex, a decision in which it had no input, is not problematic.

 

Anyone else see a problem with this?

[JAHS]

According to the CHI:

Transsexual Operation
Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer informs him of this counsel and advises him that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. The stake president may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary.

This would most likely preclude one from obtaining a temple recommend and may put their membership in jeopardy

[6EQUJ5]

 

1 hour ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Is gender reassignment a reason for unworthiness?

Worthiness is between an individual and the Lord, of course.  But gender reassignment surgery is against Church policy and may be reason to excommunicate someone IIRC.  Perhaps others can clarify.

[FunOnlineMan]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

You could apply that sort of reductionism to just about anything.

"In comparison with halting her eternal progression, her periodic infidelity to her husband is pretty minor."

"In comparison with halting his eternal progression, his occasional physical abuse of his children is pretty minor."

"In comparison with halting his eternal progression, his frequent use of cocaine and meth is pretty minor."

And so on.

Obedience and repentance are important precepts in the Church.  

Yes, and, at baptism, those things are washed away.

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Okay.  I think it's safe to say, though, that gender reassignment surgery has more effects on a person's life than just being "a collection of scars."  That's my point.

Yes. I was playing along with your twist on the hypothetical. I’m assuming that in your hypothetical, this individual would have repented of their notions that gender is not a premoeyal assignment, or whatever it is they needed to repent of in order to progress to baptism. From there, the only issue would be the surgery. Or am I missing something?

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Any other heterosexual couple?  The vagueness here, given the context, is problematic.

I didn’t realize I was being vague. Again, I assumed since the church’s stance on marriage was pretty clear, that you knew what I meant by every other couple getting sealed in the temple.

An argument could be made that you needing this to be specifically stated is problematic in its own way. 

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  That can happen.  A person can engage in serious conduct that may impair his/her ability to obtain membership in the Church.

And this is equal to those actions? Those actions being… [fill in some blanks here, so I have some idea where it ranks]

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

"Pre-re-birth actions?"  What does that mean?

Pre=before

re=again

birth=baptism 

I think we still got to this idea.

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I suspect not.  Gender reassignment surgery is, I think, uniquely problematic.

And I’m asking why. Why is it worse than some other pre-baptismal actions? Is there scriptural backing? Is it in a handbook somewhere?

4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Thanks,

-Smac

Thank you too, buddy

[FunOnlineMan]

8 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

An adult seeking gender reassignment surgery is problematic.

And yet a newborn whose gender is uncertain, gets surgery to assign it a sex, a decision in which it had no input, is not problematic.

 

Anyone else see a problem with this?

I mean, yeah. I do.

[FunOnlineMan]

7 minutes ago, JAHS said:

According to the CHI:

Transsexual Operation
Church leaders counsel against elective transsexual operations. If a member is contemplating such an operation, a presiding officer informs him of this counsel and advises him that the operation may be cause for formal Church discipline. Bishops refer questions on specific cases to the stake president. The stake president may direct questions to the Office of the First Presidency if necessary.

This would most likely preclude one from obtaining a temple recommend and may put their membership in jeopardy

Thanks. 

I wish it gave reason for why it’s seen as such a grievous offense, though.

[JAHS]

6 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Thanks. 

I wish it gave reason for why it’s seen as such a grievous offense, though.

Here's why. From the Proclamation on the Family:
 
"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

A person taking it upon him or her self to change that is an offense to God who created that person's spirit as a male or female spirit personage and was placed in a male or female body.  

[FunOnlineMan]

3 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Here's why. From the Proclamation on the Family:
 
"Gender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

A person taking it upon him or her self to change that is an offense to God who created that person's spirit as a male or female spirit personage and was placed in a male or female body.  

But thinking about my neighbor in her swimsuit is an offense to god. 

I guess I just see a place where misunderstandings may have crept into official church practices—as we’ve seen in the past.

Since I’m new, let me also say that I’m not a practicing member, so there’s all my bias laid bare. But I’m trying to work this out as I would have when I was practicing, and I find it peculiar in this way. 

[lightparticle]

52 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  It's a pretty fundamental alteration.

I think gender reassignment surgery is a lot more than "a collection of scars."  Have you ever wondered why the suicide rate for post-gender-reassignment-surgery people is so astronomically high?  (See, e.g., here, here, here, here).  

As for being sealed to "someone they love," I'm not sure what you mean here.  In the Church's paradigm, gender is not a malleable thing.  Moreover, "{g}ender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

In what way?

Thanks,

-Smac

Your links don't support the argument you are making. I'm not saying that you are fundamentally attacking transgender people, though it would be easy to make that assumption based on the tone.

The suicide rate for transgender people is high before and after surgery for very simple reasons: the people around them. How do I know? Because I'm transgender...and a member of the church.

Gender is an essential characteristic. Absolutely. No question there. But, how do you determine the gender of a spirit? We believe that the spirit and the body are two different things. That's why the mortal body sometimes ends up with handicaps. Not because of the spirit. The spirit is not the determining factor of what happens to the body. Playing "devil's advocate", if that were the case, do people born missing limbs have a spiritual defect? No. We know this because Jesus stated that the blind man (from birth) was not the result of sin. His spirit did nothing wrong, nor his parents. In essence, sometimes things happen to mortal bodies. We do the best we can with it.

Moving on to the gender argument...if a person is born intersex, what is the gender of their spirit if their body displays physical characteristics of either sex? If a doctor makes the decision, does that mean that God agrees with the doctor? What if the doctor got it wrong? Will that person then be punished for attempting to transition later in life because a doctor goofed?

The trouble with most arguments against transgender people is the assumption that we know everything there is to know about gender. Such arrogance doesn't help people that are really struggling. I know, because I do advocacy for the community every opportunity I get. Using uninformed spiritual arguments to declare us apostate, sinners, mentally ill, or evil doesn't help any of us spiritually or otherwise.

We don't commit suicide at higher rates because of mental illness or any other of the terribly overused and fundamentally incorrect arguments that traditionally get thrown at us. We commit suicide at much higher rates because the behavior and assumptions of unaccepting people demands it of us.

[FunOnlineMan]

1 minute ago, lightparticle said:

Your links don't support the argument you are making. I'm not saying that you are fundamentally attacking transgender people, though it would be easy to make that assumption based on the tone.

The suicide rate for transgender people is high before and after surgery for very simple reasons: the people around them. How do I know? Because I'm transgender...and a member of the church.

Gender is an essential characteristic. Absolutely. No question there. But, how do you determine the gender of a spirit? We believe that the spirit and the body are two different things. That's why the mortal body sometimes ends up with handicaps. Not because of the spirit. The spirit is not the determining factor of what happens to the body. Playing "devil's advocate", if that were the case, do people born missing limbs have a spiritual defect? No. We know this because Jesus stated that the blind man (from birth) was not the result of sin. His spirit did nothing wrong, nor his parents. In essence, sometimes things happen to mortal bodies. We do the best we can with it.

Moving on to the gender argument...if a person is born intersex, what is the gender of their spirit if their body displays physical characteristics of either sex? If a doctor makes the decision, does that mean that God agrees with the doctor? What if the doctor got it wrong? Will that person then be punished for attempting to transition later in life because a doctor goofed?

The trouble with most arguments against transgender people is the assumption that we know everything there is to know about gender. Such arrogance doesn't help people that are really struggling. I know, because I do advocacy for the community every opportunity I get. Using uninformed spiritual arguments to declare us apostate, sinners, mentally ill, or evil doesn't help any of us spiritually or otherwise.

We don't commit suicide at higher rates because of mental illness or any other of the terribly overused and fundamentally incorrect arguments that traditionally get thrown at us. We commit suicide at much higher rates because the behavior and assumptions of unaccepting people demands it of us.

I like you. 

Hi. I’m Sean

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I really don't know if pretending to be a different gender affects temple worthiness or not.

What is your idea of pretending in this situation?

[JAHS]

4 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

The trouble with most arguments against transgender people is the assumption that we know everything there is to know about gender.

You are probably right about that. Here's something Elder Oaks said:
"This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that."  (Elder Dallin H Oaks speaks to the media after a press conference, Jan. 27, 2015)

[lightparticle]

3 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I like you. 

Hi. I’m Sean

Hi Sean. Thanks. Nice to meet you.

[FunOnlineMan]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Here's something Elder Oaks said:
"This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that."  (Elder Dallin H Oaks speaks to the media after a press conference, Jan. 27, 2015)

Calm and I were discussing this quote. Do you know of other sources or publications where it can be found? I like it, but feels decidedly un-Oaks to me. 

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, JAHS said:

You are probably right about that. Here's something Elder Oaks said:
"This question concerns transgender, and I think we need to acknowledge that while we have been acquainted with lesbians and homosexuals for some time, being acquainted with the unique problems of a transgender situation is something we have not had so much experience with, and we have some unfinished business in teaching on that."  (Elder Dallin H Oaks speaks to the media after a press conference, Jan. 27, 2015)

The quote is confirmed by ksl, apparently was on Trib talk:

https://www.ksl.com/?nid=481&sid=39809998

Could have sworn I tried to search for it before without luck...ah, memory.  Such a cruel thing.

Edited December 13, 2018 by Calm

[lightparticle]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I really don't know if pretending to be a different gender affects temple worthiness or not.

Ouch. That's a hurtful statement. To assume that I brought myself to the brink of suicide on several occasions because I was (correctly) afraid of other people was just a really big game of pretend is a massive assumption with no solid basis of logic, reeks of complete ignorance, and essentially declares that I'm just an evil person seeking sexual thrills while challenging God to a duel by slapping him in the face with a frilly white glove.

Perhaps you didn't mean it that way. But, it sure came across like that.

[clarkgoble]

1 hour ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Not being able to trust our feelings is an interesting position for an LDS person to take.

I think there is a lot going on for anyone in such a position, though, and I think it’s probably not a good idea to adopt a notion that suicide rates among certain groups can be used as an indication of whether their other specifit choices were good or bad.

Why? While a rhetoric of feeling is clearly used to explain the epistemology of revelation there's also clearly a distinction between feeling and the revelation. So for instance a person with body dysmorphia like an eating disorder such as anorexia may feel they are fat, but clearly they are not.

I wasn't taking a position that suicide rates tell us about distinguishing these things. I think that was someone else. However I do think there are clear indication that satisfaction with surgery is far from universal, suggesting that not all claiming to be transexual actually are. (Here assuming some sort of gender essentialism) That is at least some fraction are likely suffering body dysmorphia. 

[lightparticle]

2 hours ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Our church doesn't really recognize the phenomenon known as "transgender".  We don't believe gender is a spectrum, or a choice, or a feeling.  We figure there are a number of of mental illnesses, some of which involve strong feelings of being something you're not, but no really, you were a boy or girl before you were born, you're the same thing now, and you'll be the same thing in the hereafter. If someone showed up saying "I'm biologically a male, but I'm transgender, so I'm really female, and I wanna get sealed in the temple to my fiance, who is biologically a female, but considers himself a male", I think that person would pretty much walk out of any bishop's office without a signed temple recommend.  

 

Interesting take. So, I'll play along.

Posit: A female spirit is ready to come to earth. As her body is developing before birth, the body develops congenital adrenal hyperplasia, and the body develops as a normal male would rather than a female. All her life, she lives as male because that is what everyone else tells her she is. (Look up XX male or XY female for more info -- they do happen, and far more often than you might think). Perhaps she declares herself as transgender and transitions. In doing so, she is excommunicated. Will she be cast out with the rest of the riff-raff because her imperfect body betrayed who she really is and a bunch of mortal minds couldn't grasp the concept that perhaps they were wrong? Or do you think God knows what happened and would judge accordingly?

This is just one of the conditions that we definitively know about. How many other conditions are out there that we don't know about? Don't you think it's a bit harsh to declare people mentally ill because of a situation that you may not be fully aware of?

[smac97]

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

Your links don't support the argument you are making.

I'm not sure I'm making an argument.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

I'm not saying that you are fundamentally attacking transgender people, though it would be easy to make that assumption based on the tone.

What "tone?"  Where have I disparaged transgendered people?

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

The suicide rate for transgender people is high before and after surgery for very simple reasons: the people around them. How do I know? Because I'm transgender...and a member of the church.

That is no doubt a factor, and in many ways is a very regrettable one.  However, I understand there are other factors as well.

A big problem is that transgendered people ("Group A") are asking - or demanding - that other people ("Group B") alter their (Group B's) behavior to conform to their (Group A's) gender dysphoria.  It's a form of control over me that I do not like and cannot accept.

My thinking along these lines is reflected in this exchange between Ben Shapiro and a college student (video here).

Quote

Young woman: How do you say that some people don’t have real privilege when you basically just said that trans people aren’t valid, they’re not a thing, they’re just boys pretending to be girls or girls pretending to be boys? Gender is a completely different thing.

Shapiro: No. Gender is not disconnected from sex. So –

Young woman: It’s not completely disconnected, but it’s still a cultural thing, it’s still a problem in society, it’s still in the mind.

Shapiro: No, it is not in the mind, okay. You’re not a man if you think you’re a man. I didn’t say “pretending,” or if I did, I shouldn’t have said “pretending,” let me amend –

Young woman: You said, “playing.”

Shapiro: I said, “A boy who thinks he’s a girl.” That’s the usual phraseology I use; not “playing.” I usually say, “A boy who thinks he’s a girl” or “a girl who thinks she’s a boy.,” which is technically what we’re talking about here. As far as the actual psychological issues at play, it used to be called gender identity disorder; now they call it gender dysphoria. The idea that sex or gender is malleable is not true. I’m not denying your humanity if you are a transgender person; I am saying that you are not the sex which you claim to be. You’re still a human being, and you’re a human being with an issue then I wish you Godspeed in dealing with it in any whatever way you see fit, but if you’re going to dictate to me that I’m supposed to pretend, I’m supposed to pretend that men are women and women are men, no. My answer is no. I’m not going to- I’m not going to modify basic biology because it threatens your subjective sense of what you are.

Young woman: Okay, but you’re still saying that these kids should like, not be accepted because they don’t really fit in either place? They can’t just like—

Shapiro: I’m saying that the Boy Scouts have a standard. You must be a biological boy to be a Boy Scout. You have to be a boy to be a Boy Scout.

Young woman: Where is that written, though?

Shapiro: In the name, “Boy Scouts.” Because for all of human history, boy meant boy and girl meant girl. Boy did not mean girl.

Young Woman: It’s 2017, though.

Shapiro: If I call you a moose, are you suddenly a moose? If I redefine our terms –

Young woman: That’s a completely different thing.

Shapiro: Yes, that’s right. Men and women are a completely different thing. This is true. Have you ever met a man or a woman? They are completely different.

Young woman: It’s a completely different thing . . . It’s not a thing; it’s a gender.

Shapiro: I don’t understand. Let me ask you this. I won’t ask you how old – I will ask you how old you are, because you’re young enough that it’s probably not insulting to ask you.

Young woman: I’m 22, so I’m probably a little bit naïve, right?

Shapiro: No. Why aren’t you 60? Why aren’t you 60? Why can’t you identify as 60? What is the problem with you identifying as 60?

Young woman: It’s not the same as gender, you can’t just –

Shapiro: You’re right. Age is significantly less important than gender. You can’t magically change your gender, You can’t magically change your sex. You can’t magically change your age.

I do not believe that gender is malleable.  Nor is age.  Nor is species.  

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

Gender is an essential characteristic. Absolutely. No question there.

I'm glad we agree on that.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

But, how do you determine the gender of a spirit?

I believe the gender of the spirit is the same as the gender of the body.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

We believe that the spirit and the body are two different things. That's why the mortal body sometimes ends up with handicaps. Not because of the spirit. The spirit is not the determining factor of what happens to the body.

Agreed.  This is why I don't really spend much time theorizing about exceptions to the rule, like people with ambiguous genitalia.  

But when it comes to gender dysphoria, that's a separate issue.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

Playing "devil's advocate", if that were the case, do people born missing limbs have a spiritual defect? No. We know this because Jesus stated that the blind man (from birth) was not the result of sin. His spirit did nothing wrong, nor his parents. In essence, sometimes things happen to mortal bodies. We do the best we can with it.

Agreed.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

Moving on to the gender argument...if a person is born intersex, what is the gender of their spirit if their body displays physical characteristics of either sex?

God knows.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

If a doctor makes the decision, does that mean that God agrees with the doctor?

That depends, I suppose, on whether the doctor was correct is identifying (I reject the verb "assigning") gender.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

What if the doctor got it wrong?

I'm not sure what "got it wrong" means here.  Do you mean subjectively (gender dysphoria) or objectively?

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

Will that person then be punished for attempting to transition later in life because a doctor goofed?

Again, not sure what "a doctor goofed" means here.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

The trouble with most arguments against transgender people is the assumption that we know everything there is to know about gender.

I don't carry that assumption.

In my view, the problem with many of the arguments about transgenderism is the assumption that gender is a social construct.  A malleable thing.  I don't think it is.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

Such arrogance doesn't help people that are really struggling.

I can appreciate that.  

I'm not sure going along with someon's gender dysphoria is helpful, either.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

I know, because I do advocacy for the community every opportunity I get. Using uninformed spiritual arguments to declare us apostate, sinners, mentally ill, or evil doesn't help any of us spiritually or otherwise.

I have not done any of that.

12 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

We don't commit suicide at higher rates because of mental illness or any other of the terribly overused and fundamentally incorrect arguments that traditionally get thrown at us. We commit suicide at much higher rates because the behavior and assumptions of unaccepting people demands it of us.

I don't want anyone to commit suicide.  I'm not persuaded that your assessment is completely accurate.

Thanks,

-Smac

 

[lightparticle]

6 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Why? While a rhetoric of feeling is clearly used to explain the epistemology of revelation there's also clearly a distinction between feeling and the revelation. So for instance a person with body dysmorphia like an eating disorder such as anorexia may feel they are fat, but clearly they are not.

I wasn't taking a position that suicide rates tell us about distinguishing these things. I think that was someone else. However I do think there are clear indication that satisfaction with surgery is far from universal, suggesting that not all claiming to be transexual actually are. (Here assuming some sort of gender essentialism) That is at least some fraction are likely suffering body dysmorphia. 

Serious question: Are you saying that I shouldn't trust my personal revelation of my actual gender?

You see, I spent many years begging God to fix me so I didn't have to deal with my secret any longer. I didn't want to be "that person" that said they were transgender. I did everything God asked -- baptism, young men's where I excelled and served in multiple leadership capacities, priesthood, served a mission, married in the temple, magnified callings, etc. All the while, I begged and pleaded for God to take away the feelings of knowing I was not male.

Do you know how it feels to bargain with God over and over and over again, doing everything that you believe God requires, only to continue to struggle against yourself?

The problem with "praying it away" is that eventually, you get to the point where you just assume you are, and have, nothing that God wants. It wasn't until I asked God the right questions that I realized through personal revelation that all along, the fix wasn't to somehow make my mind male. The answer was very clear that my spirit is female.

If we truly believe that "wickedness never was happiness", then why is it so hard to believe that my transition and acceptance has finally brought me happiness with who I am as well as improved my life?

[FunOnlineMan]

19 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

Why? While a rhetoric of feeling is clearly used to explain the epistemology of revelation there's also clearly a distinction between feeling and the revelation.

I was throwing cheap shots. This really isn’t that type of thread. My bad. 

19 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

I wasn't taking a position that suicide rates tell us about distinguishing these things. I think that was someone else. However I do think there are clear indication that satisfaction with surgery is far from universal, suggesting that not all claiming to be transexual actually are. (Here assuming some sort of gender essentialism) That is at least some fraction are likely suffering body dysmorphia. 

But you’re blaming their suicide on their choice to get the surgery. I think that’s a gross oversimplification of the actual problems they would be dealing with.

[JAHS]

3 minutes ago, lightparticle said:

Serious question: Are you saying that I shouldn't trust my personal revelation of my actual gender?

You see, I spent many years begging God to fix me so I didn't have to deal with my secret any longer. I didn't want to be "that person" that said they were transgender. I did everything God asked -- baptism, young men's where I excelled and served in multiple leadership capacities, priesthood, served a mission, married in the temple, magnified callings, etc. All the while, I begged and pleaded for God to take away the feelings of knowing I was not male.

Do you know how it feels to bargain with God over and over and over again, doing everything that you believe God requires, only to continue to struggle against yourself?

The problem with "praying it away" is that eventually, you get to the point where you just assume you are, and have, nothing that God wants. It wasn't until I asked God the right questions that I realized through personal revelation that all along, the fix wasn't to somehow make my mind male. The answer was very clear that my spirit is female.

If we truly believe that "wickedness never was happiness", then why is it so hard to believe that my transition and acceptance has finally brought me happiness with who I am as well as improved my life?

I am guessing all we can do is wait for the resurrection where I assume all those whose gender was in question in this life will be corrected and their resurrected bodies will match what their spirits were in the pre-mortal world.
Makes for a hard trial in this life though.