LGBTQ+ Question

[california boy]

51 minutes ago, CV75 said:

This is too full of exaggeration and rhetoric for me to understand and respond to properly. Please rephrase.

ok, I will make this very simple for you

1.  Why does God allow a woman to be sealed to more than one husband?

2.  When that woman dies, which man will be her eternal husband?  

3. What happens to the other man she was sealed to?  Is he single forever?

[california boy]

47 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

What does the church actually say about the transgender issue? The main area of concern that I can see is an advisement against gender reassignment surgery. As far as I can determine, the biological equipment is the defining line that is used. I can find no information on a stance on intersex problems. The church does advise it members to treat all those with same sex attraction and transgender feelings with dignity and respect.

Personally I have no issues with how a person identifies. I am not going to protest against then, demonstrate against them, or make fun of them. There are some practical problems that need to be looked at but I do not think anyone should be mocked or ridiculed for any problems they might have. Those without those problems can never really understand them because there are some thing that have to be experienced to understand just waht such an one is going through. We can accept individuals with problems diferent from our own. There may be problems when a person or group of people define acceptance as agreement.

Glenn

I pretty much agree with what you wrote.  I do have one question.  Does the church excommunicate women that have breast enlargements?  If not, why not.  What really is the difference.  It could be easily argued that the intent of both surgeries is to make the person feel better about how their body appears to themselves and others.

[CV75]

28 minutes ago, california boy said:

ok, I will make this very simple for you

1.  Why does God allow a woman to be sealed to more than one husband?

2.  When that woman dies, which man will be her eternal husband?  

3. What happens to the other man she was sealed to?  Is he single forever?

Thank you.

As to my answers to these questions: I don't know for sure, but I do know the covenant has nothing to do with these individuals' sexuality or sexual orientation.

But I do know why God does not allow same-sex partners to be sealed together, which has nothing to do with their sexuality or sexual orientation either.

[CV75]

1 hour ago, FunOnlineMan said:

There is a bit of a track record in this particular church, though. I see similarities between the priesthood ban and an issue like this. 

There are many differences, also. So rather than comparing any number of agreed-upon facts surrounding any number of issues like this (those exercises can go on forever, and each probably merits is own thread), I would prefer to draw upon lessons learned (or not) in terms of principle to more easily keep things focused on the subject at hand.

[FunOnlineMan]

2 minutes ago, CV75 said:

There are many differences, also. So rather than comparing any number of agreed-upon facts surrounding any number of issues like this (those exercises can go on forever, and each probably merits is own thread), I would prefer to draw upon lessons learned (or not) in terms of principle to more easily keep things focused on the subject at hand.

Fair enough. I admit my biases as a nonbeliever. 

[flameburns623]

So: 

A person who is thirty-five joins the Church along with their spouse.  They received their priesthood, are sealed to their families, hold increasing responsible callings, etcetera.

Fifteen,  eighteen years later, perhaps because it's a topic now, it emerges they are transgender,  transitioned surgically very young, changed their name and birth records,  just avoided discussing the matter in the vast majority of situations because it creates misunderstandings. Presumably their spouse knew and likewise felt no need to talk about it. Never intended deception of the Church or anyone else.  It was just a private matter that didn't need to be talked about. 

Do they lose all rights and privileges in the Church? 

[CV75]

2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Fair enough. I admit my biases as a nonbeliever. 

I am biased too on many fronts. Bias provides some spice in the exchange of ideas!

[CV75]

3 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

So: 

A person who is thirty-five joins the Church along with their spouse.  They received their priesthood, are sealed to their families, hold increasing responsible callings, etcetera.

Fifteen,  eighteen years later, perhaps because it's a topic now, it emerges they are transgender,  transitioned surgically very young, changed their name and birth records,  just avoided discussing the matter in the vast majority of situations because it creates misunderstandings. Presumably their spouse knew and likewise felt no need to talk about it. Never intended deception of the Church or anyone else.  It was just a private matter that didn't need to be talked about. 

Do they lose all rights and privileges in the Church? 

I don't think that would be the go-to or default conclusion; not enough facts available to do that.

[FunOnlineMan]

1 minute ago, flameburns623 said:

So: 

A person who is thirty-five joins the Church along with their spouse.  They received their priesthood, are sealed to their families, hold increasing responsible callings, etcetera.

Fifteen,  eighteen years later, perhaps because it's a topic now, it emerges they are transgender,  transitioned surgically very young, changed their name and birth records,  just avoided discussing the matter in the vast majority of situations because it creates misunderstandings. Presumably their spouse knew and likewise felt no need to talk about it. Never intended deception of the Church or anyone else.  It was just a private matter that didn't need to be talked about. 

Do they lose all rights and privileges in the Church? 

Hey now.

Where the have you been this whole time?

 

The short answer is they I’m pretty sure they would definitely be excommunicated. And is there an action or statement necessary to nullify ordinances, etc.? What a jar of pickles. 

[california boy]

2 hours ago, CV75 said:

Thank you.

As to my answers to these questions: I don't know for sure, but I do know the covenant has nothing to do with these individuals' sexuality or sexual orientation.

But I do know why God does not allow same-sex partners to be sealed together, which has nothing to do with their sexuality or sexual orientation either.

OK how about this.  Is a woman allowed to be sealed to a second man if her first husband dies.

[Stargazer]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

OK how about this.  Is a woman allowed to be sealed to a second man if her first husband dies.

It has happened.  There is someone who used to frequent this board (haven't seen him for some time) who was sealed to a woman who had previously been sealed to a husband who was deceased at the time.  I don't know if the first sealing was cancelled or not. I suspect it is only done with special permission.

As it happens, I'm married to a woman who was sealed to her late husband, and that will not change and we will not be sealed as husband and wife to each other.  It's a Time Only marriage, and while loving and respecting each other as husband and wife during this stage of our lives, we both look forward to the time when we will be rejoined with our own sealed spouses.  

As far as temple work for the dead is concerned, it is usual these days for a deceased woman to be sealed to all the deceased husbands she was married to during life, and vice versa. Unless there is a reason not to -- which would probably involve people who are more recently deceased.  My first marriage failed, and when my ex and I are both dead I wouldn't expect that someone is going to seal us together -- but who knows, it might happen.  I expect that the Lord will sort it all out in the end.

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by Stargazer

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, california boy said:

I pretty much agree with what you wrote.  I do have one question.  Does the church excommunicate women that have breast enlargements?  If not, why not.  What really is the difference.  It could be easily argued that the intent of both surgeries is to make the person feel better about how their body appears to themselves and others.

Breast implants are just implants.  I think there is a big difference between simple implants and attempting to legally  and surgically trying change ones gender.  I fully believe you also believe that as well.

Edited December 15, 2018 by carbon dioxide

[carbon dioxide]

3 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

So: 

A person who is thirty-five joins the Church along with their spouse.  They received their priesthood, are sealed to their families, hold increasing responsible callings, etcetera.

Fifteen,  eighteen years later, perhaps because it's a topic now, it emerges they are transgender,  transitioned surgically very young, changed their name and birth records,  just avoided discussing the matter in the vast majority of situations because it creates misunderstandings. Presumably their spouse knew and likewise felt no need to talk about it. Never intended deception of the Church or anyone else.  It was just a private matter that didn't need to be talked about. 

Do they lose all rights and privileges in the Church? 

First, the church does not change its records according to the gender that one identifies as.  Second, I think when one does go that far into it, I probably will cause them to lose rights and privileges. 

[kllindley]

3 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

The short answer is they I’m pretty sure they would definitely be excommunicated.

I would be very surprised if they were excommunicated. That does not square with my lived experience in the Church at all. 

[CV75]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

OK how about this.  Is a woman allowed to be sealed to a second man if her first husband dies.

I did answer that already.

Note that it is a similar question to the one I answered here, and so I have a similar reply (see below): Posted 3 hours ago

I do not know any better now than I did 3 hours ago. It seems that per policy, that generally no; but since I understand that exceptions to policy have been made, then occasionally yes. It depends on the facts surrounding the individual case, which I understand are settled by the First Presidency. In any case, the sexuality and orientation of the lovebirds, or the members of the First Presidency for that matter, have nothing to do with the covenant and whether the woman can be sealed to a second man if her first husband dies.

Edited December 15, 2018 by CV75

[flameburns623]

36 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

First, the church does not change its records according to the gender that one identifies as.  Second, I think when one does go that far into it, I probably will cause them to lose rights and privileges. 

So: a person joins the Church as a man and receives the priesthood, he marries a woman and they are sealed ... and decades later it is learned that decades prior to his entry into the Church records he was born a woman. 

But he is in the Church records as a man. 

You're saying those records will not change?

Did you miss the point of how I framed my question?

[FunOnlineMan]

8 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Breast implants are just implants.  I think there is a big difference between simple implants and attempting to legally  and surgically trying change ones gender.  I fully believe you also believe that as well.

So, if a male identifies as male, but gets breast implants, is that cool? Or is that crossing the gender line?

[katherine the great]

16 hours ago, california boy said:

I pretty much agree with what you wrote.  I do have one question.  Does the church excommunicate women that have breast enlargements?  

They should! That might equalize the sex imbalance in demographics. 

[mfbukowski]

On 12/14/2018 at 2:51 PM, california boy said:

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

11 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by mfbukowski

[FunOnlineMan]

2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Happens all the time!

But is it cool?

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, FunOnlineMan said:

But is it cool?

That was a joke, I thought an obvious one. 

I cannot imagine such a thing.

[mfbukowski]

3 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

 

This is a joke as well.

That I have to specify such things is a horrible commentary

Edited December 15, 2018 by mfbukowski

[mfbukowski]

20 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

So: a person joins the Church as a man and receives the priesthood, he marries a woman and they are sealed ... and decades later it is learned that decades prior to his entry into the Church records he was born a woman. 

But he is in the Church records as a man. 

You're saying those records will not change?

Did you miss the point of how I framed my question?

At some point we have to draw the line at what is a credible scenario.

Something like that, I am sure would have to be judge by a general authority or even the first presidency.

Not very likely to happen.

There is no need for a policy on something so remote a possibility.

On the other hand the only way that what you are suggesting could happen that I can see is if there had been a sex change operation. People who have sex change operations are excommunicated, at least as a matter of policy. Of course there are always extenuating circumstances.....

 

Edited December 15, 2018 by mfbukowski

[2BizE]

Yes.  This is a man and a women being married.