Stirred up with Hatred

[The Nehor]

19 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A counterpoint, it would seem, to Trump Derangement Syndrome brought on by a steady diet of cable and mainstream network programming that no longer even pretends to hide its bias. 

True, scandals should be reported from an ethically neutral position and condemning the scandal-causer is clearly deranged.

[Scott Lloyd]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

True, scandals should be reported from an ethically neutral position and condemning the scandal-causer is clearly deranged.

Even some “scandals” are in the eye of the beholder. 

[The Nehor]

45 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Even some “scandals” are in the eye of the beholder. 

Yeah, but there used to be a general consensus on what they entailed. Not sure if there is any more and that lack scares me a bit.

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

A counterpoint, it would seem, to Trump Derangement Syndrome accelerated by a steady diet of cable and mainstream network programming that no longer even pretends to hide its bias. 

Charles R. Kesler calls it "America's Cold Civil War."  There is a movement here in Washington State to divide the state East and West.  The new Eastern Washington state would be called "Liberty."  The reason is that Eastern Washington values are not represented fairly due to the huge liberal Western Washington voting block.  The risk is that a hot civil war could result.  Same thing in California.  The country is polarizing because each side gets our news from one biased source-- Fox News, CNN or Facebook.  At this point, is there any substitute for prayer and diligent hard work?  I don't think so.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

Charles R. Kesler calls it "America's Cold Civil War."  There is a movement here in Washington State to divide the state East and West.  The new Eastern Washington state would be called "Liberty."  The reason is that Eastern Washington values are not represented fairly due to the huge liberal Western Washington voting block.  The risk is that a hot civil war could result.  Same thing in California.  The country is polarizing because each side gets our news from one biased source-- Fox News, CNN or Facebook.  At this point, is there any substitute for prayer and diligent hard work?  I don't think so.

This is an amazing coincidence! As I pulled up this post — before I even saw this post — I was holding in my hand a copy of Kesler’s essay. I received a copy in the mail published in Imprimis, a publication of Hillsdale College (I’m on the mailing list). I had already read most of it within the last hour. It is very astute — and alarming. I believe Kesler is right. We are in the midst of a cold Civil War. I’ve never seen the country this divided. And that includes the Vietnam War era, when I was in my teens and young adulthood. I thought things could never be worse than they were then. 

It’s very disquieting that young people today seem to be embracing socialism, a phenomenon that would have been regarded as scandalous when I was in my youth. It has implications for Latter-day Saints, for socialist regimes have historically been antithetical to the fundamentals of the U.S. Constituton, which the Lord embraced in revelation as having been divinely inspired. Fundamentals having to do with moral agency and government by the voice of the people. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

This is an amazing coincidence! As I pulled up this post — before I even saw this post — I was holding in my hand a copy of Kesler’s essay. I received a copy in the mail published in Imprimis, a publication of Hillsdale College (I’m on the mailing list). I had already read most of it within the last hour. It is very astute — and alarming. I believe Kesler is right. We are in the midst of a cold Civil War. I’ve never seen the country this divided. And that includes the Vietnam War era, when I was in my teens and young adulthood. I thought things could never be worse than they were then. 

It’s very disquieting that young people today seem to be embracing socialism, a phenomenon that would have been regarded as scandalous when I was in my youth. It has implications for Latter-day Saints, for socialist regimes have historically been antithetical to the fundamentals of the U.S. Constituton, which the Lord embraced in revelation as having been divinely inspired. Fundamentals having to do with moral agency and government by the voice of the people. 

While I do not hope for their success I understand why they are embracing socialism. Playing the game of capitalism against a stacked deck is no fun so of course they want to play a different game. Those who have the most to lose from an increase of socialism sure seem unwilling to do anything to address this inequity so if they fall they pretty much deserve it.

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

While I do not hope for their success I understand why they are embracing socialism. Playing the game of capitalism against a stacked deck is no fun so of course they want to play a different game. Those who have the most to lose from an increase of socialism sure seem unwilling to do anything to address this inequity so if they fall they pretty much deserve it.

I’m not persuaded that all of  those clamoring for socialism truly are “playing a game of capitalism against a stacked deck.” I believe a good many are privileged, history-illiterate kids whose education at universities front-loaded with liberal egghead faculty is being funded by their parents and/or the government. 

When I was in my youth, there was a term in vogue that was used to denote the political complexion of the day: “radical chic.” It meant that it was the stylish or hip thing to condemn “the establishment” and to call for societal upheaval. I fear that essentially the same thing is going on today in large measure. The unexpected appeal of Trump in 2016 was especially a backlash to that. 

Edited November 26, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, Scott Lloyd said:

I’m not persuaded that all of  those clamoring for socialism truly are “playing a game of capitalism against a stacked deck.” I believe a good many are privileged, history-illiterate kids whose education at universities front-loaded with liberal egghead faculty is being funded by their parents and/or the government. 

When I was in my youth, there was a term in vogue that was used to denote the political complexion of the day: “radical chic.” It meant that it was the stylish or hip thing to condemn “the establishment” and to call for societal upheaval. I fear that essentially the same thing is going on today in large measure. The unexpected appeal of Trump in 2016 was especially a backlash to that. 

Real wages are stagnant despite economic growth. Most real growth is going only to the highest earners. Millennials have a dim economic future. Blaming universities for pointing that out is like accusing the media of bias when they point out that Trump routinely lies as if that is a point of view and not a fact.

As the wealth gap grows it is almost certain to lead to unrest. It always has and always will. Yet our current response has been tax cuts exacerbating the problem. Blaming it on a passing trend or demented academia is a scapegoat or blaming the messenger or even just plain victim-blaming.

[Rivers]

On 11/19/2018 at 9:39 AM, The Nehor said:

We like to imagine we are above and distinct from what we are listening to or reading and can consciously accept or reject it without being influenced but we are not.

I have seen a steady diet of talk radio turn sane people into gibbering, hate-filled, angry demagogues. Amalickiah knew what he was doing when he set up towers and had speakers drone on about the evil injustices the Nephites had heaped upon the Lamanites. It was not long before those who feared to fight became eager to fight.

I also like to think that we our all responsible as individuals to not let ourselves be influenced by modern-day Amalackiahs.  

Edited November 26, 2018 by Rivers

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, Rivers said:

I also like to think that we our all responsible as individuals to not let ourselves be influenced by modern-day Amalackiahs.  

I think the key element in avoiding that influence is to minimize how much time you spend listening to his propaganda.

[Meerkat]

13 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Those who have the most to lose from an increase of socialism sure seem unwilling to do anything to address this inequity so if they fall they pretty much deserve it.

Yes, some need help to make it.  But NOT half the population.  Accept a little stress in life.  Pray to God for an idea, if there aren't any well paying jobs around.  That's the way it used to be.  It's those who come up with an idea that create jobs.  I'm less than most, in my opinion.  Yet, when no one was hiring, God gave me ideas that provided for my family and created jobs for about forty people over the years.  When we rely on government (reaching into our neighbor's pocket for tax money earned by his or her life energy,) we don't need faith.  We don't need God.  We weaken ourselves and our country when we take things rather than earning them, in my opinion. 

Buying votes has put us in an awful pickle.  At present, we have an alternative to free education for all, which is Student Loans.  One of our granddaughters just married in the Seattle Temple.  Her father has years to go on his twenty year old student loans.  Why?  Low interest loans drove up the cost of education far beyond inflation.  It's a crime what we have done to address supposed inequities.  Under the guise of affordable housing, we gave liars loans (mortgages,) to people without verified savings or income.  We gave "Option Arm" loans to sub prime borrowers with payments based on 1 or 2 percent interest, when the actual rate was 6 to 8 percent and amortizing negatively.  Hence, the Real Estate crash of 2008-10.  We should be requiring budgeting and entrepreneurship in our high schools-- not social engineering our children to expect the government to give them free stuff that they haven't earned, when they could have.  

We, through the Great Society, incentivized the breakup of the family and created a welfare state to get votes.  Redistributing income is not the way to build character and self reliance.  Teaching how to start and build a business is.  

Are there inequities?  Of course.  Do the top 1% receive too much tax advantaged income?  It's hard to argue against that.  Before we criticize them, look at the convoluted tax structure we set up when we tried to limit executive compensation, and the wealthy, creatively, took their pay in stock.  That was the unintended consequence of social engineering.

11 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Blaming it on a passing trend or demented academia is a scapegoat or blaming the messenger or even just plain victim-blaming.

Your points seem logical on their face.  But drilling down, I see them differently.  I enjoy your comments and sense of humor.  They are thought provoking, which is great for a dialogue board like this.  But I don't believe criticizing some in academia is scapegoating.  There is something deeper going on, in my opinion.

Edited November 27, 2018 by Meerkat

[The Nehor]

11 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Yes, some need help to make it.  But NOT half the population.  Accept a little stress in life.  Pray to God for an idea, if there aren't any well paying jobs around.  That's the way it used to be.  It's those who come up with an idea that create jobs.  I'm less than most, in my opinion.  Yet, when no one was hiring, God gave me ideas that provided for my family and created jobs for about forty people over the years.  When we rely on government (reaching into our neighbor's pocket for tax money earned by his or her life energy,) we don't need faith.  We don't need God.  We weaken ourselves and our country when we take things rather than earning them, in my opinion. 

Buying votes has put us in an awful pickle.  At present, we have an alternative to free education for all, which is Student Loans.  One of our granddaughters just married in the Seattle Temple.  Her father has years to go on his twenty year old student loans.  Why?  Low interest loans drove up the cost of education far beyond inflation.  It's a crime what we have done to address supposed inequities.  Under the guise of affordable housing, we gave liars loans (mortgages,) to people without verified savings or income.  We gave "Option Arm" loans to sub prime borrowers with payments based on 1 or 2 percent interest, when the actual rate was 6 to 8 percent and amortizing negatively.  Hence, the Real Estate crash of 2008-10.  We should be requiring budgeting and entrepreneurship in our high schools-- not social engineering our children to expect the government to give them free stuff that they haven't earned, when they could have.  

We, through the Great Society, incentivized the breakup of the family and created a welfare state to get votes.  Redistributing income is not the way to build character and self reliance.  Teaching how to start and build a business is.  

Are there inequities?  Of course.  Do the top 1% receive too much tax advantaged income?  It's hard to argue against that.  Before we criticize them, look at the convoluted tax structure we set up when we tried to limit executive compensation, and the wealthy, creatively, took their pay in stock.  That was the unintended consequence of social engineering.

Your points seem logical on their face.  But drilling down, I see them differently.  I enjoy your comments and sense of humor.  They are thought provoking, which is great for a dialogue board like this.  But I don't believe criticizing some in academia is scapegoating.  There is something deeper going on, in my opinion.

Depends on what you mean by “make it”. Most people survive no matter how bad things get. The idea that one’s money is sancrosanct has always disturbed me. It implies that it was merit that won the wealth but the longer I live the less I believe that. If we could ever one day invent a way to measure the effort (either mental or physical) that goes into a job the entire basis for that premise would collapse overnight. The Protestant work ethic as an ideal is flawed when applied to a modern career.

As to student loans and bad mortgages while part of the fault lies with the borrower I do not expect brilliant financial acumen from 18 year olds entering college. With student loans we borked up the process by basically guaranteeing the loans and making student loans undischargeable except in very rare cases. This gives undue to protection to the lender so everyone wants in on these loans. Thus, as you said, tuition goes up. Makes student loans a possible part of bankruptcy and the lender might think twice before loaning an 18 year old $100k for a Philosophy degree. Fewer will go to college and more jobs that should never have required a degree (but do due to availability) will drop that requirement. As to mortgages a lot of the fault lies with the lenders. In 2008 when everything crashed there were plans to give relief money to those paying on mortgages (which would naturally give the money to the lender) but this was shot down for moral reasons arguing it would not be fair. Instead we poured money on to the lenders because we couldn’t let them go bankrupt (not sure why or how that was more moral) for......reasons. Full justice for the person struggling to keep their home but copious mercy and bailouts for the lenders who made these stupid (and occasionally illegal) loans.

We should be teaching financial skills in schools but we do not. It is one of the most important skills with immense applicability. Parents often do not like it though because that is “their job”. Bad policy because many parents are terrible with money. I also suspect that there are financial forces discouraging it. If I was a credit card company do I want potential future consumers understanding credit card interest?

The Welfare State is mostly a myth. Yes, there are people abusing the system but I encourage you to figure out how much you can get on welfare and try to live off of it. Not even a substantial portion of the Millenials are freeloaders. If you ask them they want minimum wage increases not more unemployment benefits. They want to be full participants in society not lazy layabouts. There are individual exceptions but that has been true of every generation. One of the most surreal moments of my life was a Home Teaching visit to an older couple who were dyed in the wool MAGA supporters who loved to complain about how welfare was destroying the nation. They were both on disability for most of their working lives and complained about how little Social Security they were getting too. They were difficult to love.

Social and economic engineering are both vital. They are not dirty words. Incentivizing good behaviors and good economic activity is a plus. The classical conceit that the invisible hand of the market will fix everything might be true but the cost in the mean time is often morally reprehensible. The classical approach to a surplus of labor is to note that wages will fall and people will die off until the problem is corrected. Hardly an ideal solution. I agree that the problem is complicated by I think your paradigm puts too much of the onus of responsibility on those with little economic power and far too little on those with vast power.

[Meerkat]

10 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Social and economic engineering are both vital. They are not dirty words. Incentivizing good behaviors and good economic activity is a plus. The classical conceit that the invisible hand of the market will fix everything might be true but the cost in the mean time is often morally reprehensible. The classical approach to a surplus of labor is to note that wages will fall and people will die off until the problem is corrected. Hardly an ideal solution. I agree that the problem is complicated by I think your paradigm puts too much of the onus of responsibility on those with little economic power and far too little on those with vast power.

I agree with much of what you say.  I see you as a compassionate person who doesn't want to see anyone suffer.  Most people do survive no matter how bad things get.  I think that's part of our lives.  We are educated by the things we suffer, and the compassion we gain from that suffering.  I get your thought about the Protestant Work Ethic.  I've read that the average person will now have five plus careers in a lifetime.

Each of us has a choice to make when adversity comes to us, or to those to whom we can bring relief.  I read a quotation today from Elizabeth Kubler Ross:  "The most beautiful people we have known are those who have known defeat, known suffering, known struggle, known loss, and have found their way out of the depths.  These persons have an appreciation, a sensitivity and understanding of life that fills them with compassion, gentleness, and a deep loving concern.  Beautiful people do not just happen."  

Our struggles have value.  We can't take them all away.  But we should do our best to identify corruption when it causes suffering in our midst.  I would agree with you that much of the system is corrupt.  Greed can corrupt most of us, not just the wealthy.  You say social (and economic) engineering is vital.  Yes, IF the engineers choose to encourage good behavior.  How often does that happen?  The engineers use human greed to guide behavior.  We need to be self aware, and fight their persuasions on an individual basis.  Their power is great.  It would be hard to fight it on a societal level.

Examples:

Home ownership is desirable for many or most people.  So lenders create the incentive of low initial interest adjustable rate products that lenders know the people can't afford.   The people know they can't afford it either.  But the banks want the fees, and the people want the initially low cost money.  You are right that when the market collapsed in 2008 and people lost their homes, the banks were bailed out.  Corruption.

The Affordable Care Act promised lower premiums and you can keep your doctor.  You could no longer buy catrastrophic insurance at a low price with high deductible.  You were required to accept a better policy than you could afford, and the government would pay the premium you couldn't afford.  I like having the government subsidize a family member's premium.  The hook is set.  I don't want to go back to paying my own premium, since health care is now a right.  I will accept the subsidy.  I don't want to go back to the old way, do I?  And if I don't, my character is impacted.

Now what do we do about the impact taking premiums from our neighbor has on our character?  Who benefits from higher premiums and coverage?  Insurance companies, doctors and congressional fund raisers.  It's all potentially corrupt, in my opinion.

Education--  We subsidize education with non dischargible student loans.  The cost of education inflates.  Who engineers this?  Who does it benefit, the student?? Or the university?  The university.  The book publishers.  The congressional fund raisers, etc.  

As harsh and inefficient as the invisible hand of the market is, I believe it is more charitable and kind in the long run than free money that destroys my incentive to work, be creative, exercise faith in God, etc.  Many do need a financial backstop that some get from their families.  In the Church of Jesus Christ, we help the downcast with micro loans, the perpetual education fund, etc.  Where there is a will, or just a desire, there is a way.

Are there people who need government assistance?  Of course.  My point is that the youth of today have incentives to take on a mountain of debt for an uncertain future.  Who benefits?  The students?  Not in many cases.  Their pain comes when the loan is due.  The real winners are the social engineers paid by the lenders who have full recourse for their ill gotten gains.  The congressional fundraisers also benefit.  It's all corruption.

What is morally reprehensible is compromising the character of our younger generation by minimizing the actual cost those free things will have on their future families and the country at large.

Do many, who have no financial power, need help?  Yes.  Can they make it without that help?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  It will probably be difficult, even harsh.  But that experience will strengthen their spiritual muscles.  Their families may learn to take the hard road and stay together, investing in long term joy and personal accomplishment.

I understand your point on the importance of compassion.  I'm not convinced it is compassionate to lift all people out of their stressful circumstances when the power is in them to do much for themselves.

Edited November 28, 2018 by Meerkat

[Rivers]

I really didn’t intend for this thread to become so overtly political.

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, Rivers said:

I really didn’t intend for this thread to become so overtly political.

I thought by " timely lesson," you were referring to our day and circumstances.  We have many challenges that need solutions.  There are differences of opinion on what they may be.  How do things change for the better if half the population says "No, leave us alone," and the other half keeps pressing for what they want?  We need to have thoughtful and persuasive discussions from all sides to identify problems and make necessary changes, imo.  I apologize if I caused contention.  That wasn't my intent.

[Rivers]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I thought by " timely lesson," you were referring to our day and circumstances.  We have many challenges that need solutions.  There are differences of opinion on what they may be.  How do things change for the better if half the population says "No, leave us alone," and the other half keeps pressing for what they want?  We need to have thoughtful and persuasive discussions from all sides to identify problems and make necessary changes, imo.  I apologize if I caused contention.  That wasn't my intent.

No problem.  I was just under the impression that politics are a taboo on this board.  I personally don’t have a problem with politics once in a while.  But I also don’t want to break any rules.  I try to be good 😇

 

[Tacenda]

What the sam hill was going on back then?!? 

“Shake Off the Dust of Thy Feet”: The Rise and Fall of Mormon Ritual Cursing Samuel R. Weber 

Introduction

In July 1830, just three months after the formal organization of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith dictated a revelation that promised, “in whatsoever place ye shall enter in & they receive you not in my name ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony & cleansing your feet by the wayside.”2 Subsequently, the historical record is replete with examples of ritual cursing being performed up through the 1890s. While many of Smith’s revelations and doctrinal innovations continue to be practiced by the LDS Church today, cursing has fallen into disuse. Despite this ritual’s unique status as an act of formally calling down God’s wrath upon others, it has received surprisingly little attention in scholarly studies.3 The first objective of this paper is to examine ritual cursing within Mormonism: how ritual cursing began, who performed curses, who was cursed, and how the ritual was performed. Factors that contributed to an environment conducive to ritual cursing will also be explored. Cursing arose during a period of bold innovation within Mormonism, as founding prophet Joseph Smith unveiled a seemingly endless stream of new doctrines and practices. Although ritual cursing may be appropriately described as new to the religious world in which Mormonism was born, it had ancient roots. Ritual cursing was an expression of Christian primitivism among Mormons, an attempt to recapture an ancient biblical rite that had been lost over time. The most common practitioners of 108 ritual cursing were Mormon missionaries who faced rejection in their efforts to proselytize. Mormonism began as a small sect with many religious and political enemies, and Mormons used ritual cursing as a means of holy retaliation against their enemies. The manner in which the ritual was performed varied, typically including the dusting or washing of feet, but at times involving the shaking of one’s garment. Cursing was considered part of a missionary’s duty to prepare the world for the imminent millennium. The ritual designated unbelievers as such, marking them as separate from believers for the day of judgment. The ritual was fluid and developed over time, cross-pollinating with other rituals from the School of the Prophets, the Kirtland Endowment, and the prayer circle. The combination of doctrinal innovation, Christian primitivism, and millenarianism, set against a backdrop of proselytizing efforts, disbelieving masses, and persecuting mobs, provided fertile ground for ritual cursing to flourish in the early days of the Church. The second objective of this paper is to examine the decline

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N01_526d.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0e7aqAllJ2rHxjSaqv5nbBOdCo2CyG1Cr0k8_ViIe1Yu1HNec1MCo2pfk

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What the sam hill was going on back then?!? 

If you really want to understand, then you need to stop responding so emotionally with shock when you come across something that seems weird to you.  If you don't, you will only be able to see it through your own limited experiences without empathy or understanding.

Do you think if someone reacts this way to something you or a family member has done, they are in a good place to be open to all of your qualities, good or bad, or are they more likely going to be looking for justification for their shock?

[poptart]

On 11/16/2018 at 5:24 AM, Meerkat said:

As you say, "There is a timely lesson here."

It was probably similar to families today:

"Do your chores.  Pick up your toys.  Don't fight.  Be polite.  Listen to your Mother.  Obey your Dad. Eat your vegetables. You are a child of God.  Tone it down.  Choose your friends wisely.  Stay away from pot.  It will make you paranoid.  Think positive.  Exercise faith.  You can do great things.  By the way, we forgot the brass plates back in Jerusalem.  Go back and get them from a king who will want to take your stuff and kill you,"  etc.  

To which they replied: "The world has changed.  You just don't get it.  Things were different when you were a kid.  We've got more important things to do than listen to you.  Your generation is too materialistic.  You don't care about the poor or disadvantaged.  We do.  We will take from the rich and give to the poor, which includes us.  You have way too much confidence in a god you can't see.  You are the cause of all our problems.  Don't talk to us.  We aren't interested in anything you have to say."

"12 And thus Laman and Lemuel, being the eldest, did murmur against their father. And they did murmur because they knew not the dealings of that God who had created them."  1 Nephi 2:12

If I had dared do that with my mom I'd have been smacked, the joys of being multi racial.  Anyway, wow kids here really do that?  Not joking here.  The Human Growth and Development class I took this past fall was an eye opener for me, families here are interesting.

[Meerkat]

41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

What the sam hill was going on back then?!? 

“Shake Off the Dust of Thy Feet”: The Rise and Fall of Mormon Ritual Cursing Samuel R. Weber 

Introduction

In July 1830, just three months after the formal organization of the Mormon Church, Joseph Smith dictated a revelation that promised, “in whatsoever place ye shall enter in & they receive you not in my name ye shall leave a cursing instead of a blessing by casting off the dust of your feet against them as a testimony & cleansing your feet by the wayside.”2 Subsequently, the historical record is replete with examples of ritual cursing being performed up through the 1890s. While many of Smith’s revelations and doctrinal innovations continue to be practiced by the LDS Church today, cursing has fallen into disuse. Despite this ritual’s unique status as an act of formally calling down God’s wrath upon others, it has received surprisingly little attention in scholarly studies.3 The first objective of this paper is to examine ritual cursing within Mormonism: how ritual cursing began, who performed curses, who was cursed, and how the ritual was performed. Factors that contributed to an environment conducive to ritual cursing will also be explored. Cursing arose during a period of bold innovation within Mormonism, as founding prophet Joseph Smith unveiled a seemingly endless stream of new doctrines and practices. Although ritual cursing may be appropriately described as new to the religious world in which Mormonism was born, it had ancient roots. Ritual cursing was an expression of Christian primitivism among Mormons, an attempt to recapture an ancient biblical rite that had been lost over time. The most common practitioners of 108 ritual cursing were Mormon missionaries who faced rejection in their efforts to proselytize. Mormonism began as a small sect with many religious and political enemies, and Mormons used ritual cursing as a means of holy retaliation against their enemies. The manner in which the ritual was performed varied, typically including the dusting or washing of feet, but at times involving the shaking of one’s garment. Cursing was considered part of a missionary’s duty to prepare the world for the imminent millennium. The ritual designated unbelievers as such, marking them as separate from believers for the day of judgment. The ritual was fluid and developed over time, cross-pollinating with other rituals from the School of the Prophets, the Kirtland Endowment, and the prayer circle. The combination of doctrinal innovation, Christian primitivism, and millenarianism, set against a backdrop of proselytizing efforts, disbelieving masses, and persecuting mobs, provided fertile ground for ritual cursing to flourish in the early days of the Church. The second objective of this paper is to examine the decline

https://www.dialoguejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/sbi/articles/Dialogue_V46N01_526d.pdf?fbclid=IwAR0e7aqAllJ2rHxjSaqv5nbBOdCo2CyG1Cr0k8_ViIe1Yu1HNec1MCo2pfk

Don't we learn line upon line?  Did they understand everything early on in the Restoration?  I'm sure it seemed logical to them, based on the scriptures, to shake the dust off their feet in condemnation.  There are many scriptures that contradict each other.  I see us moving into an era where we are more in line with the Savior's instructions in Matthew 5:44-48:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

[Stargazer]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

What the sam hill was going on back then?!? 

 

Depends upon how far back "then" goes!

Matthew 10:

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.
14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.
15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

This also appears in Luke 9:3-5, Luke 10:10-11, Mark 6:11, and Acts 13:51.  Paul the Apostle does a similar act when the Jews at Corinth rejected him, Acts 18:6 -> "And when they opposed themselves, and blasphemed, he shook his raiment, and said unto them, Your blood be upon your own heads; I am clean: from henceforth I will go unto the Gentiles."

Here's an interesting Q&A about it from the Christianity StackExchange Q&A site: What is significant about shaking dust from your feet?

This is something well-known among many people in Christian cultures.  On my mission, we were asked to avoid wiping our feet off on the welcome mats as we left houses, because the Germans (in our case) were apparently aware of the ancient practice mentioned in the Bible, and might take it wrong, thinking we were cursing them.  And it wasn't because we were LDS -- it's quite a non-denominational thing.  I suspect it goes back further than the New Testament, too.

 

[Tacenda]

My jaw dropped or could have dropped when I watched this woman last night. Senator Mitt Romney came to Farmington Utah for a town hall meeting. I've been ill, so I wasn't able to attend but did watch it from the KSL newsfeed. I was flabberghasted when the woman referred to the refugees as Lamanites, same with those surrounding her I guess. I wonder why she calls them Lamanites. Like they are so bad or something? Some people made this youtube of it, so I wasn't the only one that thought it strange. 

 

[Calm]

I couldn't hear it, too faint.  What was said?

Lamanite is not a negative word for white people of my age in the area I grew up (Northern California). She looks around my age.  It was a label for any First Nation person of the American Continent.  Think Lamanite Generation performers.

From what I have read, there were mixed feelings about the label from those labeled by it.

Since I can't hear her tone or what she said, hard to know if she is just using it as a generic label of race or attaching something derogatory to it, or positive.

[Hamba Tuhan]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I couldn't hear it, too faint.  What was said?

...

Since I can't hear her tone or what she said, hard to know if she is just using it as a generic label of race or attaching something derogatory to it, or positive.

I turned the sound way up. She's being derogatory. I couldn't hear anything, but she wants to protect America from a 'Lamanite invasion'. 

[SteveO]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I turned the sound way up. She's being derogatory. I couldn't hear anything, but she wants to protect America from a 'Lamanite invasion'. 

Sure she isn’t talking about the people of Ammon being taken in by the Nephites to protect them?