Tithing Breaks Poverty Cycles?

[The Nehor]

Just now, stemelbow said:

More like:

 

Prophet exclaims:  "repent or this city will be destroyed within a year"

"prove it" the crowd requests

"No."

Years pass with no destruction.  The prophet makes other crazy predictions and espouse other goofy teachings and people continue to believe for some reason.  

Yeah, but we are talking about real prophets, not me.

[stemelbow]

21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yeah, but we are talking about real prophets, not me.

Doesn't seem to me real live prophets have made any such predictions of a city being destroyed, but they have made claims that using the nickname for the Church is marking off a checkmark in the devil's column, oh and something about kids whose parents are gay can't get baptized.  

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, stemelbow said:

Doesn't seem to me real live prophets have made any such predictions of a city being destroyed, but they have made claims that using the nickname for the Church is marking off a checkmark in the devil's column, oh and something about kids whose parents are gay can't get baptized.  

Being a prophet is not all fun with angelic guided tours through history, calling fire down from heaven to consume your enemies, talking with your riding animal, siccing bears on smart alecks, declaring the doom of nations and people, and using metaphors about whorish women to call people to repentance. Sometimes you have to deal with the more dull instructions and conveying what seems like minutiae. Then you can watch them burn for ignoring the minutiae.

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

You are the one demanding evidence. Prophets, pretty much by definition, do not provide any. 

“Repent or this city will be destroyed within the year!”

”Prove it!”

”No.”

(A year later)

“Aaaaghhh, it burns. Please, let me die!”

Prophets can also be wrong because they are "fallible;" previous LDS prophets were apparently speaking as men (not wearing the prophet hat at the time I guess), so they were, in fact, wrong on certain issues.  I would bet my money that paying tithing in no way breaks poverty cycles...  

[The Nehor]

5 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Prophets can also be wrong because they are "fallible;" previous LDS prophets were apparently speaking as men (not wearing the prophet hat at the time I guess), so they were, in fact, wrong on certain issues.  I would bet my money that paying tithing in no way breaks poverty cycles...  

I would take that bet but gambling is a minor sin and I have always been of the “Go big or go Home!” school of sinning.

Edited October 23, 2018 by The Nehor

[stemelbow]

56 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Being a prophet is not all fun with angelic guided tours through history, calling fire down from heaven to consume your enemies, talking with your riding animal, siccing bears on smart alecks, declaring the doom of nations and people, and using metaphors about whorish women to call people to repentance. Sometimes you have to deal with the more dull instructions and conveying what seems like minutiae. Then you can watch them burn for ignoring the minutiae.

Hinckley eating popcorn while women with double earring holes in an ear get tossed into the eternal lake of fire, "I told them so".  Meh...you can have it, that good old fashion religion, nehor.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Still...nothing at all to support the claim that giving up that 10% will break poverty cycles.  

I strongly recommend you get yourself into a poverty cycle -- a real one, not some pampered First World sense of unfulfilled entitlement. Do you know what it even looks like? I went to church with a family whose livelihood was hand-making bricks. They had to produce 30,000 bricks per month just to pay their contribution to their sons' missions, two of whom were serving at the time. Then came school fees and food. They had a single powerpoint in their two-room home, so electricity thankfully didn't cost much. But before all of this, they paid tithing. They knew they were being blessed for their faithfulness not because life was good but because they were surviving on less than literally everyone around them.

But that's not even what we're talking about here, is it? The immediate blessings of faithfully tithing? No, specifically we're talking about breaking the cycles of poverty. So once you get yourself into real poverty, it needs to be a genuine cycle, so get married and have some kids. Then faithfully pay your tithes for decades as you raise those kids and as they start their own families. Then see what the outcomes in your own family look like. Are your grandchildren as poor as you were? How are they faring in comparison to your neighbours' grandchildren?

As I wrote earlier, I literally don't know a single genuinely poor Saint who has faithfully done the above who complained that it didn't work. And I have a strong feeling that they'd be less than impressed that you're presuming to complain on their behalves.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Hamba Tuhan

[Hamba Tuhan]

43 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

I would bet my money that paying tithing in no way breaks poverty cycles...  

Are we safe to assume that you already are?

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I strongly recommend you get yourself into a poverty cycle -- a real one, not some pampered First World sense of unfulfilled entitlement. Do you know what it even looks like? I went to church with a family whose livelihood was hand-making bricks. They had to produce 30,000 bricks per month just to pay their contribution to their sons' missions, two of whom were serving at the time. Then came school fees and food. They had a single powerpoint in their two-room home, so electricity thankfully didn't cost much. But before all of this, they paid tithing. They knew they were being blessed for their faithfulness not because life was good but because they were surviving on less than literally everyone around them.

But that's not even what we're talking about here, is it? The immediate blessings of faithfully tithing? No, specifically we're talking about breaking the cycles of poverty. So once you get yourself into real poverty, it needs to be a genuine cycle, so get married and have some kids. Then faithfully pay your tithes for decades as you raise those kids and as they start their own families. Then see what the outcomes in your own family look like. Are your grandchildren as poor as you were? How are they faring in comparison to your neighbours' grandchildren?

As I wrote earlier, I literally don't know a single genuinely poor Saint who has faithfully done the above who complained that it didn't work. And I have a strong feeling that they'd be less than impressed that you're presuming to complain on their behalves.

With a combination of the biased sample and post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacies, any superstition at all maybe supported in just this way. Bury a potato to cure warts, pay tithing to get wealthier, break a mirror to bring bad luck, and so forth.

Edited October 23, 2018 by Gray

[Hamba Tuhan]

5 minutes ago, Gray said:

Bury a potato to cure warts, pay tithing to get wealthier, break a mirror to bring bad luck, and so forth.

Bathe in the Jordan River to cure leprosy.

[Exiled]

4 hours ago, california boy said:

I think you brought up some valid points.  Does God monetarily bless tithe paying members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?  If that is true, then the data should support that assumption.  So I did a little digging. 

Looks like one should be giving money to a host of other religions if you want to prosper financially.

And how about by state?  Given Utah has the highest percentage of tithing going to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, are they the wealthiest state?

Looks like that is a no as well.

Rank	State or territory	2015	2014	2013	2012	2011[n 1]
1	Maryland	$75,847	$73,971	$72,483	$71,122	$70,004
2	District of Columbia	$75,628	$71,648	$67,572	$66,583	$63,124
3	Hawaii	$73,486	$69,592	$68,020	$66,259	$61,821
4	Alaska	$73,355	$71,583	$72,237	$67,712	$67,825
5	New Jersey	$72,222	$71,919	$70,165	$69,667	$67,458
6	Connecticut	$71,346	$70,048	$67,098	$67,276	$65,753
7	Massachusetts	$70,628	$69,160	$66,768	$65,339	$62,859
8	New Hampshire	$70,303	$66,532	$64,230	$63,280	$62,647
9	Virginia	$66,262	$64,902	$62,666	$61,741	$61,882
10	California	$64,500	$61,933	$60,190	$58,328	$57,287
11	Washington	$64,129	$61,366	$58,405	$57,573	$56,835
12	Colorado	$63,909	$61,303	$58,823	$56,765	$55,387
13	Minnesota	$63,488	$61,481	$60,702	$58,906	$56,954
14	Utah	$62,912	$60,922	$59,770	$57,049	$55,869

 

I don't like knocking anyone's beliefs.  If you want to pay tithing and feel like you get blessed, then you should.  But claims that it will lift you out of poverty seems like an overreach.  I do have a problem with church leaders making promises in the name of God that don't appear to come from Him.  This seems to be one of those cases.

 

 

 

Great points! I can't agree with the bold section above any more than I do.

[Ouagadougou]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I strongly recommend you get yourself into a poverty cycle -- a real one, not some pampered First World sense of unfulfilled entitlement. Do you know what it even looks like? I went to church with a family whose livelihood was hand-making bricks. They had to produce 30,000 bricks per month just to pay their contribution to their sons' missions, two of whom were serving at the time. Then came school fees and food. They had a single powerpoint in their two-room home, so electricity thankfully didn't cost much. But before all of this, they paid tithing. They knew they were being blessed for their faithfulness not because life was good but because they were surviving on less than literally everyone around them.

But that's not even what we're talking about here, is it? The immediate blessings of faithfully tithing? No, specifically we're talking about breaking the cycles of poverty. So once you get yourself into real poverty, it needs to be a genuine cycle, so get married and have some kids. Then faithfully pay your tithes for decades as you raise those kids and as they start their own families. Then see what the outcomes in your own family look like. Are your grandchildren as poor as you were? How are they faring in comparison to your neighbours' grandchildren?

As I wrote earlier, I literally don't know a single genuinely poor Saint who has faithfully done the above who complained that it didn't work. And I have a strong feeling that they'd be less than impressed that you're presuming to complain on their behalves.

I have lived several years of my life overseas and have been to many poor countries...I have seen extreme poverty, along with meeting people who lived in such conditions.  This is why I find President Nelson's comments so ridiculous--requiring already poor people to give up 10% of their income, IMO, only creates more financial hardships for them.  What is worse is the church already has billions of dollars, so it doesn't need their money.  If people want to pay tithing, fine, but don't feed them nonsense that their act of paying tithing will free them from poverty cycles.  

[Ouagadougou]

2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

I strongly recommend you get yourself into a poverty cycle -- a real one, not some pampered First World sense of unfulfilled entitlement. Do you know what it even looks like? I went to church with a family whose livelihood was hand-making bricks. They had to produce 30,000 bricks per month just to pay their contribution to their sons' missions, two of whom were serving at the time. Then came school fees and food. They had a single powerpoint in their two-room home, so electricity thankfully didn't cost much. But before all of this, they paid tithing. They knew they were being blessed for their faithfulness not because life was good but because they were surviving on less than literally everyone around them.

But that's not even what we're talking about here, is it? The immediate blessings of faithfully tithing? No, specifically we're talking about breaking the cycles of poverty. So once you get yourself into real poverty, it needs to be a genuine cycle, so get married and have some kids. Then faithfully pay your tithes for decades as you raise those kids and as they start their own families. Then see what the outcomes in your own family look like. Are your grandchildren as poor as you were? How are they faring in comparison to your neighbours' grandchildren?

As I wrote earlier, I literally don't know a single genuinely poor Saint who has faithfully done the above who complained that it didn't work. And I have a strong feeling that they'd be less than impressed that you're presuming to complain on their behalves.

IMO, here is even more ridiculous guidance: let your children go hungry in order to pay tithing.  It is God's will that children don't eat so he (God) can get more money for his church that already has billions of dollars.  

Church leaders are not only telling people that tithing will free them from poverty cycles, they are also saying that tithing takes precedence over feeding your family.  

"Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/12/sacred-transformations?lang=eng

[Calm]

No leader is saying don't feed your kids to pay tithing, but rather pay tithing and work with the Church to meet the needs of your family as evidenced by what follows your quote:

Quote

Reflecting on this experience, Bishop Orellana says, “Ever since then, they have been faithful tithe payers.” The family received some commodities from the bishops’ storehouse during their financial difficulties...Once Bishop Orellana asked Amado how the family was doing financially. Amado responded, “We’re doing all right. Sometimes we don’t have much to eat, but we have enough. And more than anything, we trust in the Lord.”

 

Edited October 23, 2018 by Calm

[Ouagadougou]

15 minutes ago, Calm said:

No leader is saying don't feed your kids to pay tithing, but rather pay tithing and work with the Church to meet the needs of your family as evidenced by what follows your quote:

 

"Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing."

Tithing > feeding your family 

What if there is nothing available through a local storehouse or they live in a remote area? Once again, I think this is terrible advice...feed your children first.   

[The Nehor]

42 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

IMO, here is even more ridiculous guidance: let your children go hungry in order to pay tithing.  It is God's will that children don't eat so he (God) can get more money for his church that already has billions of dollars.  

Church leaders are not only telling people that tithing will free them from poverty cycles, they are also saying that tithing takes precedence over feeding your family.  

"Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/12/sacred-transformations?lang=eng

And I encourage everyone to follow that counsel.

Of course it is ridiculous. The gospel is pretty ridiculous. Being dunked underwater opens the door to heaven for me, laying hands on my head gave me the power that created universe, marriage is the beginning of a new God, and every Sunday I eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but living God. Totally nuts. Also, completely true.

And I will second what President Nelson said: The Lord will not abandon you.

[The Nehor]

21 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

"Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing."

Tithing > feeding your family 

What if there is nothing available through a local storehouse or they live in a remote area? Once again, I think this is terrible advice...feed your children first.   

Then they are probably due for a miracle. I almost envy them.

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Bathe in the Jordan River to cure leprosy.

I'm sure that done in the right frame of mind it can cure spiritual leprosy.

[Gray]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And I encourage everyone to follow that counsel.

Of course it is ridiculous. The gospel is pretty ridiculous. Being dunked underwater opens the door to heaven for me, laying hands on my head gave me the power that created universe, marriage is the beginning of a new God, and every Sunday I eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but living God. Totally nuts. Also, completely true.

And I will second what President Nelson said: The Lord will not abandon you.

http://www.withoutend.org/120000-lds-children-malnourished/

[Hamba Tuhan]

34 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Tithing > feeding your family 

What if there is nothing available through a local storehouse or they live in a remote area? 

Only way one to find out. Ever wonder why so many Saints seem to know things that you don't?

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Ouagadougou said:

IMO, here is even more ridiculous guidance: let your children go hungry in order to pay tithing.  It is God's will that children don't eat so he (God) can get more money for his church that already has billions of dollars.  

Church leaders are not only telling people that tithing will free them from poverty cycles, they are also saying that tithing takes precedence over feeding your family.  

"Even if paying tithing means that you don’t have enough money to feed your family, pay tithing. The Lord will not abandon you.”

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/12/sacred-transformations?lang=eng

No responsible, level headed parent would follow this guidance. This is no different from refusing medical care to children due to religious beliefs. This is incredibly misguided advice.

[Ouagadougou]

1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

Only way one to find out. Ever wonder why so many Saints seem to know things that you don't?

Know things based on special feelings you mean?  People also know/believe the world is flat...

[Ouagadougou]

26 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

And I encourage everyone to follow that counsel.

Of course it is ridiculous. The gospel is pretty ridiculous. Being dunked underwater opens the door to heaven for me, laying hands on my head gave me the power that created universe, marriage is the beginning of a new God, and every Sunday I eat the flesh and drink the blood of a dead but living God. Totally nuts. Also, completely true.

And I will second what President Nelson said: The Lord will not abandon you.

To each his/her own...we have different points of view and beliefs on this subject--people have a right to believe what they like, but I don't accept such counsel.  

[Hamba Tuhan]

59 minutes ago, Ouagadougou said:

Know things based on special feelings you mean?  People also know/believe the world is flat...

Know things based on firsthand experience, I mean. It's the equivalent of (speaking hypothetically) knowing the earth is flat because you've travelled to the very edge and looked over ... probably more than once just to check.

 

[The Nehor]

4 hours ago, Ouagadougou said:

Know things based on special feelings you mean?  People also know/believe the world is flat...

That some people are morons does not mean knowledge about reality is pointless. That some people are spiritually deaf does not mean God does not speak.