changed Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I have been thinking about the original 12 apostles. There were some things they did which were great - and others that were not so great. It seems like Jesus was always correcting them or scolding them for something. - could not walk on water - could not always heal those who needed it. - pushing kids away from Jesus (forbid them now for such is the kingdom) fearful of tempests - doubting (Thomas) - sleeping - could not stay awake even one hour betrayed Jesus with a kiss... If the current church and apostles are based on the original - and the original had problems... what are we to make of it? I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... With or without apostles, I think we are all supposed to have our own individual testimony, our own light, our own personal relationship with God. 2
Jane_Doe Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 There's only one perfect being ever to walk this earth: Christ. And yes, each person is indeed to have their own relationship with Christ and testimony of Him. But that does NOT remotely mean other servants of God shouldn't exist to help each other. Community and supporting each other is essential to the 2nd Great Commandment. That doesn't mean we pretend that anyone else is Christ. But rather, we all help each other. 2
RevTestament Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 11 minutes ago, changed said: What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I have been thinking about the original 12 apostles. There were some things they did which were great - and others that were not so great. It seems like Jesus was always correcting them or scolding them for something. - could not walk on water - could not always heal those who needed it. - pushing kids away from Jesus (forbid them now for such is the kingdom) fearful of tempests - doubting (Thomas) - sleeping - could not stay awake even one hour betrayed Jesus with a kiss... If the current church and apostles are based on the original - and the original had problems... what are we to make of it? I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... With or without apostles, I think we are all supposed to have our own individual testimony, our own light, our own personal relationship with God. But where do we get our knowledge of God from? All of it came from His servants, the prophets and seers. The original 12 did not get the promise of guidance from the Holy Spirit until Christ breathed upon them at the end of His ministry. None of us would know how to seek guidance through the Holy Spirit if our Lord's servants had not taught us and written it down for us. Quote I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... Join the club... right now that makes us an exclusive club of at least two I just have to live with how people treat me. Sometimes I feel like a black sheep. You know what? I have gotten used to that. I would say God has prepared me for that over the course of my life. Some leaders were never accepted during life - they just weren't accepted so did not become known, or were laughed at. Scientists were jailed for their beliefs which did not align with religious beliefs or the supposed writings of the prophets, ie Galileo comes to mind. Famous painters were not accepted or known till they died, and their paintings became worth millions. Truth can be a lonely path - just ask Yeshua our Savior. Yes, I agree that we are all expected of Yeshua to have our own individual testimony and relationship with God. In fact the ark of the testimony was at the heart of the Temple, was it not? 3
Avatar4321 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 I think that’s why we need the gift of the Holy Ghost. Because it’s the spirit that is going to teach us what we can rely on. 3
smac97 Posted October 2, 2018 Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 18 hours ago, changed said: What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I'm not sure what you mean by "degree." "Substantial, but not unfettered" would be my response. I addressed this issue previously here (regarding general authorities): Quote I would not say that we should "doubt their inspiration." Perhaps a better verb would be "analyze" or "evaluate" or "determine for ourselves" their inspiration. I think we should operate from a position of faith. I also think we should give the Brethren the benefit of the doubt. That is, I think we should generally "decide that you will believe someone, even though you are not sure that what the person is saying is true." I think such a presumption would a healthy thing. I also think such a presumption would be subsequently vindicated almost all of the time. (There are way too many "I thinks" in this paragraph, I think.) However, this presumption should not be unthinking or devoid of analysis. To the contrary, we are supposed to examine the words of our leaders. Consider these remarks by Kent Jackson: Quote The more restrictive view of what constitutes scripture would include only what is called "the scriptures"-that is, the four standard works: the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. These constitute the canonized, authoritative corpus of revealed writings against which all else is measured. President Joseph Fielding Smith taught, "My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them…. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine" (DS 3:203). And these by then-Elder Harold B. Lee of the Twelve: Quote It is not to be thought that every word spoken by the General Authorities is inspired, or that they are moved upon by the Holy Ghost in everything they speak and write. Now you keep that in mind. I don’t care what his position is, if he writes something or speaks something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard church works, unless that one be the prophet, seer and revelator — please note that one exception {when he is speaking as the prophet, taught from earlier in the paragraph} — you may immediately say, “Well, that is his own idea.” And if he says something that contradicts what is found in the standard works (I think that is why we call them “standard” — it is the standard measure of all that men teach), you may know by that same token that it is false, regardless of the position of the man who says it. And these remarks by President Lee: Quote If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth. (The First Area General Conference for Germany, Austria, Holland, Italy, Switzerland, France, Belgium, and Spain of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, held in Munich Germany, August 24–26, 1973, Reports and Discourses, p.69) So my rule of thumb is to give a presumption of good faith to the Brethren. To give them the benefit of the doubt. To assume that what they are saying is in accordance with the Standard Works, and with the Spirit. Again, I think such a presumption would be subsequently vindicated almost all of the time. However, although I give the Brethren the benefit of the doubt, this is - in legal vernacular - a rebuttable presumption. That is, I leave open the possibility that a leader in the Church may, in the words of President Smith above, issue remarks which "do not square with the revelations." That he may say "something that goes beyond anything that you can find in the standard church works." That he may say "something that contradicts what is found in the standard works." We must leave that possibility open, because our leaders have told us that it is a possibility. So if a leader in the Church says something that I feel may be problematic, I feel obligated to test it. To think about it. To study it. To discuss it with those whom I find trustworthy. To weight it against the Standard Works. And most of all, to pray about it. So if I find the statement to be "beyond" what it is the Standard Works, then I generally either reject it or label it in my mind as a personal opinion of the speaker (and hence I am not bound by it). If I find the statement to contradict the Standard Works, then I reject it altogether. Consider, by way of example, Amasa Lyman, who while serving as an apostle and as a member of the presidency of the Church's European Mission, "preached a sermon in Dundee, Scotland, which all but denied the reality of and the necessity for the atonement of Jesus Christ," a concept he continued to preach years later even after being corrected and after he apologized for it. He was subsequently released as an apostle, and within a few years was affiliating with an apostate sect, and was then excommunicated (his membership and status as an apostle were posthumously reinstated). Imagine the confusion, and perhaps even apostasy, that would be caused if members of the Church today uncritically accepted remarks similar to what Elder Lyman taught. And then consider the wisdom of the counsel we have received about reliance on "the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine." So the counsel we have given on this point is, I think, sound and reasonable. I note, however, that it is susceptible to abuse by dissidents and critics, who may seize upon remarks such as those I have quoted above and use them as some sort of carte blanche to publicly disagree with and defy the Brethren on any issue they (the critics/dissidents) deem significant, and also to work to persuade members of the Church to listen to them rather than the Brethren. Hence we end up with substantial disagreements over socially popular themes like same-sex marriage, female ordination, and so on. And with the advent of the Internet, critics and dissidents have markedly increased opportunities to persuade members of the Church to accept their point of view on such issues, and to ignore or disregard the counsel given to us by the Brethren, and to instead adopt the preferences of the self-selected few who have set themselves up as alternative voices of authority. I don't think this is what the Lord has in mind for His people. I don't think the wise words given above were intended to give critics and dissidents leave to speak evil of the Lord's anointed, to set themselves up as voices of authority alternative and superior to the Brethren, or to foment discord and disunity in the Church. Hope this helps. Thanks, -Smac Edited October 3, 2018 by smac97 2
changed Posted October 2, 2018 Author Posted October 2, 2018 (edited) 15 hours ago, Avatar4321 said: I think that’s why we need the gift of the Holy Ghost. Because it’s the spirit that is going to teach us what we can rely on. I agree. I have gone back to square one, am sifting through what I have and have not had confirmation on. I never did get confirmation on the book of mormon, or of any modern day prophet... hope for things not seen - if I get to make up what to hope for, I hope there is no outer darkness, I hope everyone will be refined, that all tears will be wiped away, for joy and happiness for all... Is that what you do for things you do not know, just hope for the best scenario you can imagine? Edited October 3, 2018 by changed 1
Glenn101 Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 6 hours ago, changed said: What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I have been thinking about the original 12 apostles. There were some things they did which were great - and others that were not so great. It seems like Jesus was always correcting them or scolding them for something. - could not walk on water - could not always heal those who needed it. - pushing kids away from Jesus (forbid them now for such is the kingdom) fearful of tempests - doubting (Thomas) - sleeping - could not stay awake even one hour betrayed Jesus with a kiss... If the current church and apostles are based on the original - and the original had problems... what are we to make of it? I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... With or without apostles, I think we are all supposed to have our own individual testimony, our own light, our own personal relationship with God. All of the examples that you cited came before they received their baptism by fire. They became changed men after that experience. If we did not have the apostles and prophets, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day-Saints would probably pretty much resemble some of the mainstream Christian religions by this time. Sort of the way the Community of Christ has evolved, in my opinion. I agree completely with your last sentence. Glenn 2
Robert F. Smith Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 9 hours ago, changed said: What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I have been thinking about the original 12 apostles. There were some things they did which were great - and others that were not so great. It seems like Jesus was always correcting them or scolding them for something. - could not walk on water - could not always heal those who needed it. - pushing kids away from Jesus (forbid them now for such is the kingdom) fearful of tempests - doubting (Thomas) - sleeping - could not stay awake even one hour betrayed Jesus with a kiss... If the current church and apostles are based on the original - and the original had problems... what are we to make of it? I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... Jesus spent several years training his apostles. After his Resurrection, he continued teaching them for another 40 days. Even after that, they sometimes disagreed among themselves. Yet he gave them the Great Commission to go forth and preach the Gospel to all mankind. They were fully authorized as his personal representatives. We need to respect that. 9 hours ago, changed said: With or without apostles, I think we are all supposed to have our own individual testimony, our own light, our own personal relationship with God. Correct. 2
The Nehor Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 Trust but confirm. If you do not have the spiritual ability to confirm then trust and follow and you will be led to where you can confirm. 1
changed Posted October 3, 2018 Author Posted October 3, 2018 10 hours ago, Glenn101 said: All of the examples that you cited came before they received their baptism by fire. Quite a lot of it happened in Gethsemone - Peter denying the Savior, 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43 And he came and found them asleep again...
Kevin Christensen Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 17 hours ago, changed said: What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I have been thinking about the original 12 apostles. There were some things they did which were great - and others that were not so great. It seems like Jesus was always correcting them or scolding them for something. - could not walk on water - could not always heal those who needed it. - pushing kids away from Jesus (forbid them now for such is the kingdom) fearful of tempests - doubting (Thomas) - sleeping - could not stay awake even one hour betrayed Jesus with a kiss... If the current church and apostles are based on the original - and the original had problems... what are we to make of it? I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... With or without apostles, I think we are all supposed to have our own individual testimony, our own light, our own personal relationship with God. Compare this list of issues with my list of 28 Biblical Keys for Discerning True and False Prophets. https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets Are the lists the same, or different? What difference do the differences make? And yes, we are supposed to have our own individual testimony. That is crucial. Another crucial point in that in the LDS church we covenant with God to "sustain" one another. Quote Sustain96 1. To keep up; keep going; maintain. Aid, assist, comfort. 2. to supply as with food or provisions: 3. to hold up; support 4. to bear; endure 5. to suffer; experience: to sustain a broken leg. 6. to allow; admit; favor 7. to agree with; confirm. I think that it is crucial to understand the full range of meaning. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA
CV75 Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 17 hours ago, changed said: What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I have been thinking about the original 12 apostles. There were some things they did which were great - and others that were not so great. It seems like Jesus was always correcting them or scolding them for something. - could not walk on water - could not always heal those who needed it. - pushing kids away from Jesus (forbid them now for such is the kingdom) fearful of tempests - doubting (Thomas) - sleeping - could not stay awake even one hour betrayed Jesus with a kiss... If the current church and apostles are based on the original - and the original had problems... what are we to make of it? I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... With or without apostles, I think we are all supposed to have our own individual testimony, our own light, our own personal relationship with God. Once we know about Him, faith works best when it is centered on and in Jesus Christ. All the appendages, perfect and imperfect, fall into place after that and as we integrate them properly, find ourselves becoming more like Jesus Christ. Even the worst among us can do that, and as we do so, we look upon others with charity. 1
changed Posted October 3, 2018 Author Posted October 3, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Kevin Christensen said: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets Interesting comparison to true and false prophets - although there is a circular problem, there is no point in deciding if someone is a prophet or not until you have a testimony in God and the Savior, and I'm not sure how anyone would gain a testimony in God and the Savior without some sort of prophet so... but assume one has made the first giant leap of finding God and settling on the Christian version of God - By their fruits, and the fruits are: Love, Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - this I very much like. By their fruits and by their works, (Fruit = internal, work = external?) https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Seeing_the_truth/Works Defining appropriate "works" is harder than defining "fruit". / criticism/judgement (they did not donate enough, they did not provide protection, they were not able to heal etc. etc.) An interesting quote came around, something about how Ghandi and Martin Luther - they did not donate a bunch of money or do anything more than have a good character. Demanding works is demanding that someone else do something for you - perhaps it is better to not expect any work. I'm not sure that anyone can really help anyone else on a deep level, we should not expect another to solve any of our problems for us - should not expect another to do any work for us. Expecting work from anyone is a good way to be let down. ... https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Rejecting_true_prophets/Fear_as_an_Obstacle Isn't it a little troublesome that "appeal to authority" is an obstacle in "finding authority". One of the definitions of sustain is... to agree with? Edited October 3, 2018 by changed
Kevin Christensen Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 15 minutes ago, changed said: Interesting comparison to true and false prophets - although there is a circular problem, there is no point in deciding if someone is a prophet or not until you have a testimony in God and the Savior, and I'm not sure how anyone would gain a testimony in God and the Savior without some sort of prophet so... but assume one has made the first giant leap of finding God and settling on the Christian version of God - By their fruits, and the fruits are: Love, Joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control - this I very much like. By their fruits and by their works, (Fruit = internal, work = external?) https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Seeing_the_truth/Works Defining appropriate "works" is harder than defining "fruit". / criticism/judgement (they did not donate enough, they did not provide protection, they were not able to heal etc. etc.) An interesting quote came around, something about how Ghandi and Martin Luther - they did not donate a bunch of money or do anything more than have a good character. https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Rejecting_true_prophets/Fear_as_an_Obstacle Isn't it a little troublesome that "appeal to authority" is an obstacle in "finding authority". One of the definitions of sustain is... to agree with? There is a hierarchy of issues, and yes, the existence of God and the Divinity of Christ can come before the notion of prophets called by and testifying of Jesus. However, the potential existence of prophets who testify of God and Christ can provide what Alma 32 refers to as "cause to believe". There is more than one way to approach the situation, top down starting with God, or bottom to top, starting with his servants. The parable "by their fruits shall ye know them" refer to the pattern of telling figs from thistles and grapes from thorns. So the issue should not be, I don't like grapes, or that grape is sour, or that fig has a blemish, or I don't think figs exist since I've never seen a fig tree, or tasted one, but I have been pricked by thistles and thorns. Rather, what set of characteristics distinguish figs from thistles, and grapes from thorns? So I spent years collected a set of Biblical passages describing the set of characteristics that distinguish true from false prophets. It still amazes me that no one had done it before. And other parts of the essay explore why that is the case. If people make up their own subjective and personal tests for true and false prophets, it is much easier to control the answer. I provided a set of examples of what the Bible depicts as characteristic works, which in this case refers to behavior and production, as well as alternative examples. Regarding "appeal to authority" as an obstacle, here is the context: Appeals to authorities—“Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?” (John 7:47) In this case, an appeal to authority circumvents direct consideration of the fruit that should be considered. It like saying that Joseph Smith can't be a prophet because if he was, the Pope and the Prime Minister and the King and my Academic advisor, and my favorite uncle would have believed on him. It's an alternative to personally and actually weighing direct evidence and relevant issues. And "sustain" yes the seventh definition is "to agree with." Which means that the previous six are more important. I list them all because I think it's important to know all of them when raising one's hand to "sustain" them in a calling. FWIW Kevin Christensen Canonsburg, PA 1
RevTestament Posted October 3, 2018 Posted October 3, 2018 51 minutes ago, changed said: https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Biblical_Keys_for_Discerning_True_and_False_Prophets/Rejecting_true_prophets/Fear_as_an_Obstacle Isn't it a little troublesome that "appeal to authority" is an obstacle in "finding authority". Appeals to authorities—“Are ye also deceived? Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him?” (John 7:47) In this case, an appeal to authority circumvents direct consideration of the fruit that should be considered. I think LDS are actually prone to this when it comes to Church authorities. I don't assume they are right, and am not against praying about it for myself. But, the typical response when I differ from the correlated answer is "such and such said this" without the consideration of any merits. I think the point is that appeal to authority by itself is not really meritorious. I don't believe something just because BY said it. I consider it merits, study and pray about it. If it rings true and is confirmed to me then I accept it, and have "found authority." So the issue is the way the authority is found. Again, mere appeals to authority doesn't make one a prophet. Alma was one of Noah's priests until he rejected that path and became a prophet of God. As Noah's priest he was set up as having authority. However, as a prophet of God, he did not lead by appeals to authority but by teaching righteousness. Yeshua Himself did not lead by appeals to authority, but by making Himself the son of man. 1
Glenn101 Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 12 hours ago, changed said: Quite a lot of it happened in Gethsemone - Peter denying the Savior, 40 And he cometh unto the disciples, and findeth them asleep, and saith unto Peter, What, could ye not watch with me one hour? 41 Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak. 42 He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. 43 And he came and found them asleep again... Yes, but that still was before the Pentecost. Glenn
MiserereNobis Posted October 4, 2018 Posted October 4, 2018 The 2000 year history of the Catholic Church has given us time to work this out. We have "levels of assent of faith," which means that it depends on who is saying what and in what context. Sometimes our faith requires us to assent fully. For example, I assume the equivalent would be the LDS prophet declaring in general conference that this is the will of the Lord. Here's the wikipedia article on it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magisterium#Levels We Catholics are as systematic as possible, ha.
Calm Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 Anon, You can control the seriousness of the discussions once you get 25 posts and can start your own thread. You can state in the opening post what you want the conversation to stay focused on. If posters start to go off topic, you can request them to start their own thread and use the report function to ask mods for help if some poster refuses to self moderate.
10THAmendment Posted October 5, 2018 Posted October 5, 2018 If prophets never had a history of leading people astray and preaching false doctrine than I would be much more inclined to put more faith in them than I currently do. The church now labels certain teachings by earlier prophets as false doctrine. During my faith crisis, I had to completely rework my beliefs when it comes to the living prophet and what his role is. I'm still figuring it out but I see President Nelson as the president of an organization, which he is referred to as half the time (President of the church) and maybe a living prophet on the side when he absolutely needs to be. In the end, the Lord instructs us to never put faith in man, only in Him. Apostles and prophets are all men, more than capable of leading people in the wrong direction. I put MUCH more faith in the Spirit, which often contradicts statements and teachings of church leaders.
changed Posted October 5, 2018 Author Posted October 5, 2018 27 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said: If prophets never had a history of leading people astray and preaching false doctrine than I would be much more inclined to put more faith in them than I currently do. The church now labels certain teachings by earlier prophets as false doctrine. During my faith crisis, I had to completely rework my beliefs when it comes to the living prophet and what his role is. I'm still figuring it out but I see President Nelson as the president of an organization, which he is referred to as half the time (President of the church) and maybe a living prophet on the side when he absolutely needs to be. In the end, the Lord instructs us to never put faith in man, only in Him. Apostles and prophets are all men, more than capable of leading people in the wrong direction. I put MUCH more faith in the Spirit, which often contradicts statements and teachings of church leaders. Thanks for your comment, I agree. I put much more faith in the Spirit, and have low expectations of everyone else. 1
changed Posted October 5, 2018 Author Posted October 5, 2018 (edited) 12 minutes ago, Anon the Great said: 10th Amme;ndment, I resonate with your belief and am not trying to move you out of the LDS faith. Where would you go? Over to the Recovery from Mormonism board and became and atheist? it will not make you happy. Some of the xmormons have been their over 20 years still recovering. 20 years? haha, that is one way to put it. No green grass on either side of the fence it seems. Edited October 5, 2018 by changed
Royce Posted October 10, 2018 Posted October 10, 2018 On 10/2/2018 at 2:55 PM, changed said: What degree of faith and trust is everyone expected to give to apostles and prophets? I have been thinking about the original 12 apostles. There were some things they did which were great - and others that were not so great. It seems like Jesus was always correcting them or scolding them for something. - could not walk on water - could not always heal those who needed it. - pushing kids away from Jesus (forbid them now for such is the kingdom) fearful of tempests - doubting (Thomas) - sleeping - could not stay awake even one hour betrayed Jesus with a kiss... If the current church and apostles are based on the original - and the original had problems... what are we to make of it? I know no one is perfect - but if I disagree with something a prophet or apostle has said people treat it like going against God. There are plenty of examples where the apostles were not right though.... With or without apostles, I think we are all supposed to have our own individual testimony, our own light, our own personal relationship with God. Have a read: Race and the Priesthood. And think about it.
changed Posted October 10, 2018 Author Posted October 10, 2018 On 10/5/2018 at 6:12 PM, Anon the Great said: Changed, I believe I can answer your questions with only the Bible, but it will oppose the LDS paradigms, without persuading anyone to leave Mormonism. Jethro created the hierarchy of judges, not God. So the structure was already in place before Yahweh spoke the 10 commandments to all the people at once in Exodus 20. The people misjudged Him in fear, and they asked God to talk to Moses using the established structure instead of what He wanted to do. God declared it was good because He wanted to teach the earth what the hierarchical structures of power can do to any religion on earth, just like in Mormonism--the system itself becomes evil. God's way is a circle of unity at the bottom where He speaks to everyone individually with His light. It is not a pyramid structure of power. There are many scriptures in the Bible that support this idea. The original 12 Apostles were a circle of unity and not at the top of a pyramid structure. I agree - we live in a fallen earth... everything is fallen here. The greatest among you shall be your servants... Luke 9:46 Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. 47 And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him, 48 And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great.
changed Posted October 10, 2018 Author Posted October 10, 2018 8 hours ago, Royce said: Have a read: Race and the Priesthood. And think about it. Link?
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