“Relaxed but Engaged” Mormons

[Jeanne]

3 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I would be interested in hearing the results of the conversation. For me, in the conversations I have had, I have found this concept of secular love everyone is closely aligned with live and let live. Again, no self-sacrifice, but I get to do whatever I want and you leave me alone and I will leave you to do what you want too. It is a facet of hedonism; highly self-centered and focused on me. But, gosh doesn't it sound nice.  I get to babble on about accepting and loving everyone else when really all I want is to love myself in comfort of my own circle. 

You are very mistaken if you think that those outside the church do not understand self sacrifice.  I have sacrificed many things for my children..for my health and those around me that I love...the biggest sacrifice is the losing of extended family for which I am not worthy of.

[CV75]

11 hours ago, SteveO said:

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2018/09/29/more-millennial-mormons/

I’m doing this on my phone at the airport, so hopefully the format holds up.

An article from the SLtrib that I found somewhat discouraging.  At first I thought it was a story about Mormons who occasionally deviated from the WoW...but it gets a little more interesting towards the end.  Few highlights:

Church leaders and members “should keep in mind that about a quarter of those in the pews every week are ‘relaxed but engaged,’” Knoll writes,  “That means that there is a sizable minority who find value in the social aspect of the church but who don’t believe wholeheartedly in LDS Church teachings, don’t pay tithing, don’t hold a temple recommend, and who drink coffee and alcohol and take the counsel of church leaders with a grain of salt.”

Homer hasn’t renewed her recommend because, she says, she finds the temple ceremony “irredeemably sexist.”

She does not wear temple garments but is “deeply committed” to the “personal covenants with God [she made in the temple] about loving my fellow sisters and brothers.”

In the end, Homer says, “no one else has the power to decide what being Mormon means except for me.”

Obedience as a virtue “may have been more important 40 years ago,” she says, “whereas [authenticity] is one of the leading virtues for many millennials.”

A few of my comments:

I’m not entirely sure what the point is in being a Mormon if you cut out all the parts that are unique.  I guess we’d rather have everyone there than on the outside, but I think the mentality of being “half in” is...rather toxic.  For example, in the case of the BYU student who stopped wearing her garments, that’s fine if that’s what she wants to do...but why then go and tell your roommates and friends?  How do you even broach the subject of what kind of underwear you’ve decided to start wearing.  It makes me think that none of this ultimately involves cases of a “quiet personal relationship with Christ”.  It needs to be broadcasted to everyone else that you don’t sustain church leadership.  That you don’t pay tithing.  That you stopped wearing garments and don’t hold a temple recommend.  There are scriptures that make known the mind of God concerning those who are fence sitters, with makes me think that this isn’t a particularly good thing that is taking place.  

Thoughts?

 

Thus, it seems very unauthentic (hypocritical) to remain deeply committed to personal covenants made with God in a ritual that has been defined by someone else an which is irredeemably sexist (choose your “-ist”).

Authenticity may well trump obedience, but when they are aligned and integrated with submitting our wills to God, here is nothing more redeeming.

It is true that “no one else has the power to decide what being Mormon means except for me,” but the idea is to render that power back to the Lord. “The submission of one’s will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God’s altar.” https://www.lds.org/ensign/2000/08/insights-from-my-life?lang=eng

“the submission of one’s will is really the only uniquely personal thing we have to place on God’s altar. …It is the only possession which is truly ours to give!” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1995/10/swallowed-up-in-the-will-of-the-father?lang=eng

“our wills constitute all we really have to give God anyway.” https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2002/04/consecrate-thy-performance?lang=eng

Thus, it seems very unauthentic (hypocritical) to remain deeply committed to personal covenants made with God in a ritual that has been defined by someone else an which is irredeemably sexist (choose your “-ist”).

[CV75]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

The iron rod story is about only one single very defined way back to God.  If you let go of that single path, then all is lost and you wander away from God.

I think there are many that believe in heading towards Christ as being the goal.  It is more like the branches of a tree that all lead to the trunk.  In one scenario, less than 1% of Gods children make it back to Christ.  In the other scenario, most people are able to make it back to Christ.  What seems more likely to you?

The iron rod is part of the vision testifying ultimately of “the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.”

Jesus taught, “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

The phrase I bolded is the fulfillment of that love: those who are true and faithful to Jesus, in other words, those who are constant companions to Him (the tree or vine) will hold fast to His ways (the iron rod), will receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost by keeping the covenants and His doctrine and gospel as He described it in the Book of Mormon.

Unfortunately, pride can breed even in these conditions: “And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?”

[CV75]

6 hours ago, Gray said:

The same tensions are in place between Orthodox and Reformed Jewish people. The fact is some people need strict rules and authoritarian structure to get them to the spiritual place they want to be in, but for other people it's a hindrance between them and their relationship towards God.

Not sure why you think sharing one's beliefs would be toxic - there's nothing more Mormon than that.

There's nothing wrong with sharing one's beliefs and religious practices that might differ, deviate from or reject and oppose the rest of the community, nor with fully embracing and accepting the consequences of such sharing, many of which we have no control over.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Where did you get any of this?  Do you have a reference to these concepts?

The gospels and the gospels respectively.

[california boy]

51 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I wish it was that way - actually being based on Jesus' teaching. The problem is the conflict I see between the words and the actions of this group. As I write this I am cognizant of the fact that the same critique could be given of most Christians. 

Jesus taught that we should love one another, but his life was the ultimate example of self-sacrifice. When there is no personal sacrifice, there is no personal cost - thus the action is worthless. When we observe personal cost in loving others then we can recognize a true believer in loving others. Until then it is just talk - nice sounding, but of no worth, no accomplishment, and no value. 

I agree that personal sacrifice is part of emulating the life of the Savior.  But not sure why you think that is not happening in the world today.  I personally know a lot of people who freely give of their time and resources to those less fortunate.   I do a lot of volunteer work with one of the senior centers in San Francisco.  There are a lot of younger people that come there on a regular basis to help with various activities.  The center puts on an annual fundraiser to help keep the doors open.  There is an organization called One Brick, which are mostly younger adults that we just have to tell them how many volunteers are needed and they are there willing to help.  I have friends that volunteer weekly with Open Hands to help serve meals to those that need that assistance.   Is this not the core of serving others that Christ talks about?  Do you have something else in mind when you are talking about personal sacrifice?

[california boy]

25 minutes ago, CV75 said:

The iron rod is part of the vision testifying ultimately of “the love of God, which sheddeth itself abroad in the hearts of the children of men; wherefore, it is the most desirable above all things.”

Jesus taught, “Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.”

The phrase I bolded is the fulfillment of that love: those who are true and faithful to Jesus, in other words, those who are constant companions to Him (the tree or vine) will hold fast to His ways (the iron rod), will receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost by keeping the covenants and His doctrine and gospel as He described it in the Book of Mormon.

Unfortunately, pride can breed even in these conditions: “And it came to pass that the servant said unto his master: Is it not the loftiness of thy vineyard—have not the branches thereof overcome the roots which are good? And because the branches have overcome the roots thereof, behold they grew faster than the strength of the roots, taking strength unto themselves. Behold, I say, is not this the cause that the trees of thy vineyard have become corrupted?”

I am really not sure what point you are trying to make.  Scriptures can be interpreted in many ways.   Could you just explain your point in your own words?  

[california boy]

4 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The gospels and the gospels respectively.

So do you have anything from the life of Christ that would relate to what you said?   Because this is a non answer.  And I would really like to see specifically where you are getting these ideas from.

[The Nehor]

Just now, california boy said:

So do you have anything from the life of Christ that would relate to what you said?   Because this is a non answer.  And I would really like to see specifically where you are getting these ideas from.

The forgiveness bit is that everyone who came to him seeking forgiveness got forgiven. The other bit comes from his interactions with the self-satisfied who were convinced they were good. Most of these (though not all) were in the religious and political elite. The most common target was the Pharisees. They had their personal made up rules of conduct by which they measured themselves and found themselves satisfactory. He had nothing but contempt for that approach.

[CV75]

19 minutes ago, california boy said:

I am really not sure what point you are trying to make.  Scriptures can be interpreted in many ways.   Could you just explain your point in your own words?  

Copied and pasted from above:

those who are true and faithful to Jesus, in other words, those who are constant companions to Him (the tree or vine) will hold fast to His ways (the iron rod), will receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost by keeping the covenants and His doctrine and gospel as He described it in the Book of Mormon.

Unfortunately, pride can breed even in these conditions

[california boy]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The forgiveness bit is that everyone who came to him seeking forgiveness got forgiven. The other bit comes from his interactions with the self-satisfied who were convinced they were good. Most of these (though not all) were in the religious and political elite. The most common target was the Pharisees. They had their personal made up rules of conduct by which they measured themselves and found themselves satisfactory. He had nothing but contempt for that approach.

Got it.  Thanks for the clarification.  I agree that Christ didn't really have much good to say about the church leaders that had instituted a ton of rules that had nothing to do with worthiness, yet judged others by those very made up rules.

[california boy]

3 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Copied and pasted from above:

those who are true and faithful to Jesus, in other words, those who are constant companions to Him (the tree or vine) will hold fast to His ways (the iron rod), will receive the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost by keeping the covenants and His doctrine and gospel as He described it in the Book of Mormon.

Unfortunately, pride can breed even in these conditions

Yeah I read. that part.  But what does it mean to be a constant companion to Him?  Someone who is sinless?  Or anyone working towards being more like Him.  Or something totally different.  Do you have to be a member of the church to have Christ as your constant companion?  

[SteveO]

15 minutes ago, california boy said:

Got it.  Thanks for the clarification.  I agree that Christ didn't really have much good to say about the church leaders that had instituted a ton of rules that had nothing to do with worthiness, yet judged others by those very made up rules.

What he didn’t like was that these leaders were deemed righteous by the observance of the lesser laws but then had left the weightier ones undone.  They should have done both.

I think these people discussed in the article are doing the same thing...how is sitting out the temple because you think loving our fellow man is more important have any meaning when you aren’t living worthily to be able to participate in the work involving redemption of the dead?  If the church is what it claims to be...that’s a huge glaring oversight that really isn’t reconcilable.

 

[CV75]

57 minutes ago, california boy said:

Yeah I read. that part.  But what does it mean to be a constant companion to Him?  Someone who is sinless?  Or anyone working towards being more like Him.  Or something totally different.  Do you have to be a member of the church to have Christ as your constant companion?  

To be Christ’s constant (reliable, dependable) companion means to be true and faithful to Him, and the constant companionship of the Holy Ghost eventually follows.

I think when people are true and faithful to their conscience or their inborn sense of right and wrong, they are developing a relationship with Christ and working towards being more like Him even when they have never heard His name. Once we do hear it and develop faith and belief in Him, we can join His Church and in receiving baptism obtain the gift and companionship of the Holy Ghost.

I think that Christ is unconditionally everyone’s constant companion, by virtue of His Atonement. There is a distinction in whether or not we choose to reciprocate. Once we make that choice, we can hold to the rod, which the word of God (the teachings, covenants and ordinances) in one sense and The Word of God in another.

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Got it.  Thanks for the clarification.  I agree that Christ didn't really have much good to say about the church leaders that had instituted a ton of rules that had nothing to do with worthiness, yet judged others by those very made up rules.

And I suspect Christ feels similarly about others (Mormons included) who make up their own rules.

1 hour ago, california boy said:

Yeah I read. that part.  But what does it mean to be a constant companion to Him?  Someone who is sinless?  Or anyone working towards being more like Him.  Or something totally different.  Do you have to be a member of the church to have Christ as your constant companion?  

I think it is the same division of the righteous and the wicked. The righteous are those who repent. The wicked are those who do not.

I am not sure what the "constant companion thing means admittedly. In the D&C the idea that Christ dwells within us is dismissed as a sectarian notion. The influence of Christ is felt through two mediums: the light of Christ which is given to all though it can be killed off within us and the Holy Ghost which ministers as it will but to be constant requires devotion to righteousness.

[Garden Girl]

2 hours ago, california boy said:

I agree that personal sacrifice is part of emulating the life of the Savior.  But not sure why you think that is not happening in the world today.  I personally know a lot of people who freely give of their time and resources to those less fortunate.   I do a lot of volunteer work with one of the senior centers in San Francisco.  There are a lot of younger people that come there on a regular basis to help with various activities.  The center puts on an annual fundraiser to help keep the doors open.  There is an organization called One Brick, which are mostly younger adults that we just have to tell them how many volunteers are needed and they are there willing to help.  I have friends that volunteer weekly with Open Hands to help serve meals to those that need that assistance.   Is this not the core of serving others that Christ talks about?  Do you have something else in mind when you are talking about personal sacrifice?

I'm not sure I entirely agree with Storm Rider's view, but I do like your points about volunteering, and through my own efforts I've known numerous people of all faiths, and non-faiths, who have served others with their time, efforts, and contributions through volunteering, many at various levels of self sacrifice... (some who viewed their efforts as a desire to be Christ-like... others just out of the goodness of their hearts).

from the beach on a blustery Sabbath afternoon... GG

[strappinglad]

In John 8:11 it clearly states that Jesus said to the woman ," go and continue in thy ways as you must please yourself and follow your heart " , or words to that effect.

[Bernard Gui]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

Not exactly sure how this relates to what I wrote.  Are you just trying to reinforcing the idea that less than 1% of God's children are on a path back to God?   

No. That there is one gate, one path, and one Savior. In the end all will confess Jesus is the Christ. 

[pogi]

6 hours ago, california boy said:

I think it is more the "Love one another as I have loved you" concept.  For guidance on this concept, look to the life of Christ.  How would Christ treat someone who doesn't believe in what the leaders of the church dictated to its members? How would Christ treat someone who has a glass of wine occasionally?  How would Christ treat someone who chooses to get a tattoo or 2 ear piercings?  How would Christ teach someone who doesn't attend the temple?  How would Christ treat someone who was living with a man that was not her husband?

I am not sure what you are getting at here.  Christ would love them and give them a voice of warning, admonition, correction, and encouragement to repent and return unto him.  Has anyone suggested that we should do otherwise?

I think sometimes people interpret "love others" as 'be silent' and 'let them be'.  That is not what Christ had in mind. We are supposed to be a watchman and a voice of warning to the people. 

Quote

Ezekiel 3:16-18
At the end of seven days the word of the LORD came to me, saying, "Son of man, I have appointed you a watchman to the house of Israel; whenever you hear a word from My mouth, warn them from Me. "When I say to the wicked, 'You will surely die,' and you do not warn him or speak out to warn the wicked from his wicked way that he may live, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity, but his blood I will require at your hand.

Quote

Hebrews 3:12-14
Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end

Sometimes with sharpness:

Quote

Acts 7:51
You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.

But always with love:

Quote

2 Thessalonians 3:15
Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.

Quote

1 Corinthians 4:14
I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children.

Quote

Acts 20:31
Therefore be on the alert, remembering that night and day for a period of three years I did not cease to admonish each one with tears.

Quote

 

1 Thessalonians 5:14

We urge you, brethren, admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with everyone.

 

I think that is the best counsel we have on how to approach this subject. 

Edited September 30, 2018 by pogi

[Rain]

17 minutes ago, pogi said:

I am not sure what you are getting at here.  Christ would love them and give them a voice of warning, admonition, correction, and encouragement to repent and return unto him.  Has anyone suggested that we should do otherwise?

I think sometimes people interpret "love others" as 'be silent' and 'let them be'.  That is not what Christ had in mind. We are supposed to be a watchman and a voice of warning to the people. 

Sometimes with sharpness:

But always with love:

I think that is the best counsel we have on how to approach this subject. 

I think one of the hardest things is knowing when to just love and when to warn. As I have grown older I've found with my own family and friends that I needed to warn far less than love and listen. It became much more clear to me when I read this talk by Elder Scott. Since then I have read of studies that show when you try to convince people of their errors they often hold stronger to them. So now I try to follow Elder Scott's example and love them first. Then as they feel that love they either come to me for advice on their own, or I am shown brief moments when the Lord wants me to warn on just a few occasions.

[california boy]

3 hours ago, SteveO said:

What he didn’t like was that these leaders were deemed righteous by the observance of the lesser laws but then had left the weightier ones undone.  They should have done both.

I think these people discussed in the article are doing the same thing...how is sitting out the temple because you think loving our fellow man is more important have any meaning when you aren’t living worthily to be able to participate in the work involving redemption of the dead?  If the church is what it claims to be...that’s a huge glaring oversight that really isn’t reconcilable.

 

I think the point is not everyone attending the church believes all the claims of the church including the importance of temple ordinances. And they equate a lot of the rules with a lot of the rules the Pharisees were trying to pass off as coming from God. 

[california boy]

50 minutes ago, Rain said:

I think one of the hardest things is knowing when to just love and when to warn. As I have grown older I've found with my own family and friends that I needed to warn far less than love and listen. It became much more clear to me when I read this talk by Elder Scott. Since then I have read of studies that show when you try to convince people of their errors they often hold stronger to them. So now I try to follow Elder Scott's example and love them first. Then as they feel that love they either come to me for advice on their own, or I am shown brief moments when the Lord wants me to warn on just a few occasions.

This is more how I see the Saviors actions.  It is a concept he repeated over and over and over again in His ministry.

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

No. That there is one gate, one path, and one Savior. In the end all will confess Jesus is the Christ. 

And this is the point of my comments.  It is Christ's atonement that saves all mankind, not a particular church.

[rockpond]

While this "relaxed but engaged" style Mormon has been around for ages, I think we'll see this as an increasing trend... 

In the internet age when the Church is losing its ability to play the truth card as a means to insisting on an all or nothing approach, I think more members will start following this path.

[pogi]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

I think one of the hardest things is knowing when to just love and when to warn. As I have grown older I've found with my own family and friends that I needed to warn far less than love and listen. It became much more clear to me when I read this talk by Elder Scott. Since then I have read of studies that show when you try to convince people of their errors they often hold stronger to them. So now I try to follow Elder Scott's example and love them first. Then as they feel that love they either come to me for advice on their own, or I am shown brief moments when the Lord wants me to warn on just a few occasions.

Yes, that is a delicate line.  The approach of some can be overbearing and turn-offish.  I think Elder Scott's talk is excellent.  I liked the part below - the point being that love is not complete without sharing and encouragement. 

Quote

 

How can each of us become such a significant influence? We must be sure to sincerely love those we want to help in righteousness so they can begin to develop confidence in God’s love. For so many in the world, the first challenge in accepting the gospel is to develop faith in a Father in Heaven, who loves them perfectly. It is easier to develop that faith when they have friends or family members who love them in a similar way.
Giving them confidence in your love can help them develop faith in God’s love. Then through your loving, thoughtful communication, their lives will be blessed by your sharing lessons you have learned, experiences you have had, and principles you have followed to find solutions to your own struggles. Show your sincere interest in their well-being; then share your testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can help in ways that are grounded in principle and doctrine. Encourage those you love to seek to understand what the Lord would have them do. One way to do this is to ask them questions that make them think and then allow them sufficient time—whether hours, days, months, or more—to ponder and seek to work out the answers for themselves. You may need to help them know how to pray and how to recognize answers to their prayers. Help them to know that the scriptures are a vital source of receiving and recognizing answers. In that way you will help them prepare for future opportunities and challenges.

 

President Eyring gave a similar message in his talk called "A Voice of Warning":

Quote

 

Love always comes first. A single act of kindness will seldom be enough. The Lord described the love we must feel, and that those we invite must recognize in us, with words like these: “Charity suffereth long,” and it “beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things” (1 Cor. 13:4, 7).
I’ve seen what “suffereth long” and “endureth all things” mean. A family moved into a house near us. The home was new, so I was part of the crew of Latter-day Saints who spent a number of nights putting in landscaping. I remember the last night, standing next to the husband of the family as we finished. He surveyed our work and said to us standing nearby, “This is the third yard you Mormons have put in for us, and I think this is the best.” And then he quietly but firmly told me of the great satisfaction he got from membership in his own church, a conversation we had often in the years he lived there.
In all that time, the acts of kindness extended to him and his family never ceased because the neighbors really came to love them. One evening, I came home to see a truck in his driveway. I had been told they were moving to another state. I approached to see if I could help. I didn’t recognize the man I saw loading household things into the truck. He said quietly as I drew near, “Hello, Brother Eyring.” I hadn’t recognized him because he was the son, now grown older, who had lived there, married, and moved away. And because of the love of many for him, he was now a baptized member of the Church. I don’t know the end of that story because it will have no end. But I know that it begins with love.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1998/10/a-voice-of-warning?lang=eng

 

This is all in harmony with the scriptures I shared. 

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by pogi