california boy Posted September 30, 2018 Posted September 30, 2018 1 hour ago, strappinglad said: In John 8:11 it clearly states that Jesus said to the woman ," go and continue in thy ways as you must please yourself and follow your heart " , or words to that effect. Not sure were this is coming from. Is anyone suggesting changing the admonition of Christ to turn away from the sin of adultery?
california boy Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, pogi said: Yes, that is a delicate line. I think Elder Scott's talk is excellent. I liked the part below - the point being that love is not complete without sharing and encouragement. President Eyring gave a similar message in his talk called "A Voice of Warning": This is all in harmony with the scriptures I shared. This is the message I can embrace. Those that focus on the sins of others, not so much. The focus should always come from a place of love and nurturing. Quote John 21 15 So when they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 16 He saith to him again the second time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 17 He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of Jonas, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. These are the final words the resurrected Christ left with His apostles.
mnn727 Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 7 hours ago, california boy said: Not exactly sure how this relates to what I wrote. Are you just trying to reinforcing the idea that less than 1% of God's children are on a path back to God? If you buy into the 3 Kingdoms of Glory, then yes, As the Celestial Kingdom are the only ones to live with God the Father.
california boy Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 22 minutes ago, mnn727 said: If you buy into the 3 Kingdoms of Glory, then yes, As the Celestial Kingdom are the only ones to live with God the Father. And if you don't buy into the 3 Kingdoms of Glory with the top one being exclusive for those few souls that find the church and actually can believe in it?
carbon dioxide Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 4 minutes ago, california boy said: And if you don't buy into the 3 Kingdoms of Glory with the top one being exclusive for those few souls that find the church and actually can believe in it? That is the reward of exaltation. Everyone will get a chance to hear the gospel. That is what the the purpose of the spirit world is about. One can't be expected to not believe after being exposed to the gospel and be rewarded the same as those that did believe.
carbon dioxide Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 Perhaps for some people the goal in life is to pick and choose what commandments and requirements one wants to keep and God is ok with disobedience to the ones we don't like. That sounds wonderful and would be great if that was true. The article poses the question would God keep a person out of heaven for drinking coffee? The answer is yes if God tells you not to drink it and you choose coffee first. We were not put on this world to see what creative ways we can come up with to avoid what God asks of us.
changed Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 18 hours ago, SteveO said: ... I think the mentality of being “half in” is...rather toxic. There are scriptures that make known the mind of God concerning those who are fence sitters, with makes me think that this isn’t a particularly good thing that is taking place. Here is a scripture: For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: Expecting every 8yo to have a grown-up testimony - to be "all-in" sounds toxic to me. Do you think everyone has a 100% testimony in everything all at once? I hold authenticity to be very important. I think if everyone honestly looked at what they have a testimony in, and what they did not really pray and receive a witness on yet - no one should be "all-in", there are "many things yet to be revealed". It is more healthy to be honest, then "go with the crowd".
changed Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 37 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: We were not put on this world to see what creative ways we can come up with to avoid what God asks of us. Many disagree on what God has asked of everyone. Does God command us to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca? How do you know what God asks? How does anyone know? Edited October 1, 2018 by changed 2
changed Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 41 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said: That is the reward of exaltation. Everyone will get a chance to hear the gospel. That is what the the purpose of the spirit world is about. One can't be expected to not believe after being exposed to the gospel and be rewarded the same as those that did believe. A loving God would provide the correct educational experiences to everyone - and a loving person would never be happy in any kingdom unless everyone was there together with one another. It is partially up to us, and partially up to our teachers. 1
Scott Lloyd Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 It just occurred to me to wonder how faithful and dedicated Latter-day Saints in the so-called “millennial generation” feel about having self-appointed pundits lump them in with others in that group who are casual in their approach to their faith. 1
pogi Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, california boy said: This is the message I can embrace. Those that focus on the sins of others, not so much. The focus should always come from a place of love and nurturing. These are the final words the resurrected Christ left with His apostles. Agreed. I just think it needs to be pointed out that he was likely not talking about feeding them dinner, but rather the gospel of Jesus Christ. He expects us to feed people to the bread of life and the fount of living waters, of which if people eat, they will never hunger or thirst again. He is not talking about empty or superficial love that endures for a lifetime only - he is talking about sharing our pearls of great price. He expects us to open our mouth and admonish rather than just tolerate differences. Edited October 1, 2018 by pogi 2
sunstoned Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 13 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: Sounds like another name for cafeteria “Mormons” or social “Mormons.” Nothing really new here. This mindset has been around for ages. One person's cafeteria mormon is another person's follower of Christ. Here are a couple of quotes from the article that really resonated with me: Quote This generation has “internalized the truth that their faith and divine worth are reflected less by outward expressions of obedience than they are by a sacred, inner sense of Christ’s unconditional love,” says Salt Lake City resident Drew Stelter. “In other words, how we treat other children of God is more important than whether or not we drink coffee. The focus is on people, not things.” Quote Obedience as a virtue “may have been more important 40 years ago,” she says, “whereas [authenticity] is one of the leading virtues for many millennials.” In the end, it comes down to a person’s view of God, Mason says. Is God a taskmaster, an enforcer of rules, who doles out blessings conditionally, based on obedience? Or is God more forgiving and generous, who is not going to hold anyone to a set of seemingly arbitrary rules? 2
sunstoned Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 12 hours ago, Storm Rider said: The concept that "I" am converted to the love everyone, accept them as they are is really more a choice to do nothing, cause no waves, and never sacrifice anything. If the number of people that said they were committed to loving people was actually real and they were serious, what does the world look like? What is the end product? Chaos seems a good answer. I have never observed those who are different interested in hanging out together. If you go to a university and observe the cafeteria rooms individuals are sitting most often with people that look like them. Human choose to associate and socialize with those that think and act like in a similar manner. So if I am going to love everyone I am just going to allow them to exist in their own space and I will do what I do in my own space and eventually we will have all these little spaces with smiling faces because we love everyone. That love is going to exist up to the point that the individual happy little circle is impacted by another circle of loving people. At that point all heck brakes out, love is forgotten and the knives come out (guns don't exist in these little circles of love). At that point the blood flows until the weaker circle of love is done away with because they were selfish, self-centered aggressors who were impacting all the love that existed in the world. In the end, this secular concept of loving others really only exists if the individual is not required to sacrifice anything, do anything, and is enabled to do whatever they want. The moment that self-sacrifice is demanded, this concept of secular love goes out the window. IMO, people don't need religion to be moral, loving and responsible. Edited October 1, 2018 by sunstoned 1
sunstoned Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said: Perhaps for some people the goal in life is to pick and choose what commandments and requirements one wants to keep and God is ok with disobedience to the ones we don't like. That sounds wonderful and would be great if that was true. The article poses the question would God keep a person out of heaven for drinking coffee? The answer is yes if God tells you not to drink it and you choose coffee first. We were not put on this world to see what creative ways we can come up with to avoid what God asks of us. I think you have identified one of the problems. That is the difference between man made rules and commandments of God. Now the Bible and even the BoM seem to be pretty clear on what the commandments are. After that, say from the 19th century forward, some things it gets pretty murky. Coffee is a good example. If God said not to drink it, then I think most people wouldn't. But many folks think that is a man made rule, and that God doesn't care what morning beverage you consume. When challenged on this, they would ask to see the commandment. Of course, there isn't one. Just some church leader saying so. And we know from history that church leaders can and have been wrong many times. You probably don't agree with this, but can you see where some people are coming from? 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 6 hours ago, california boy said: And this is the point of my comments. It is Christ's atonement that saves all mankind, not a particular church. Christ himself declares the essential saving mission of his Church and his Priesthood that function under his direction and authority. That’s what the Restoration is all about. 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 2 hours ago, sunstoned said: One person's cafeteria mormon is another person's follower of Christ. Here are a couple of quotes from the article that really resonated with me: So, who do we believe and why: a few Millenial Mormons or ordained Prophets? 1
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 5 hours ago, california boy said: And if you don't buy into the 3 Kingdoms of Glory with the top one being exclusive for those few souls that find the church and actually can believe in it? Then what’s the point of staying in the Church if one rejects its fundamental doctrines?
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said: It just occurred to me to wonder how faithful and dedicated Latter-day Saints in the so-called “millennial generation” feel about having self-appointed pundits lump them in with others in that group who are casual in their approach to their faith. Indeed. I reject the trendy efforts to give groups of people catchy names and then to go about assuming that everyone in the arbitrary groups march to the same drummers. This kind of thinking never turns out well. Edited October 1, 2018 by Bernard Gui 1
The Nehor Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 2 hours ago, sunstoned said: IMO, people don't need religion to be moral, loving and responsible. I don't disagree and if a basic sense of morality, a dose of love, and basic responsibility were the primary goal in life religion would probably be superfluous. If you want perfect morality you need God's help. If you want to be remade into an exalted being then you have to go a bit further. "All right, Christianity will do you good a great deal more good than you ever wanted or expected. And the first bit of good it will do you is to hammer into your head (you won’t enjoy that!) the fact that what you have hitherto called ‘good’ — all that about ‘leading a decent life’ and ‘being kind’ — isn’t quite the magnificent and all-important affair you supposed. It will teach you that in fact you can’t be ‘good’ (not for twenty-four hours) on your own moral efforts. And then it will teach you that even if you were, you still wouldn’t have achieved the purpose for which you were created. Mere morality is not the end of life. You were made for something quite different from that. J. S. Mill and Confucius (Socrates was much nearer the reality) simply didn’t know what life is about. The people who keep on asking if they can’t lead a decent life without Christ, don’t know what life is about; if they did they would know that ‘a decent life’ is mere machinery compared with the thing we men are really made for. Morality is indispensable: but the Divine Life, which gives itself to us and which calls us to be gods, intends for us something in which morality will be swallowed up. We are to be re-made. All the rabbit in us is to disappear — the worried, conscientious, ethical rabbit as well as the cowardly and sensual rabbit. We shall bleed and squeal as the handfuls of fur come out; and then, surprisingly, we shall find underneath it all a thing we have never yet imagined: a real Man, an ageless god, a son of God, strong, radiant, wise, beautiful, and drenched in joy. ‘When that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away’ (1 Cor 13:10). The idea of reaching ‘a good life’ without Christ is based on a double error. Firstly, we cannot do it; and secondly, in setting up ‘a good life’ as our final goal, we have missed the very point of our existence. Morality is a mountain which we cannot climb by our own efforts; and if we could we should only perish in the ice and unbreathable air of the summit, lacking those wings with which the rest of the journey has to he accomplished. For it is from there that the real ascent begins. The ropes and axes are ‘done away’ and the rest is a matter of flying." - C.S. Lewis 1
The Nehor Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 5 hours ago, california boy said: And if you don't buy into the 3 Kingdoms of Glory with the top one being exclusive for those few souls that find the church and actually can believe in it? Well, there are other options: 1
california boy Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 4 hours ago, pogi said: Agreed. I just think it needs to be pointed out that he was likely not talking about feeding them dinner, but rather the gospel of Jesus Christ. He expects us to feed people to the bread of life and the fount of living waters, of which if people eat, they will never hunger or thirst again. He is not talking about empty or superficial love that endures for a lifetime only - he is talking about sharing our pearls of great price. He expects us to open our mouth and admonish rather than just tolerate differences. Of course. Feed my sheep also refers to nurturing and caring for. Christ didn't say, judge everyone who sits in the pews whether they are worthy to be there or not. In fact, on several occasions, He specifically taught against doing that kind of thing. Loving people and teaching them what is right is different than deriding and judging. How "less engaged" members are treated is important to carefully consider. 2
california boy Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: Then what’s the point of staying in the Church if one rejects its fundamental doctrines? Just because someone doesn't believe that all the rules of the Church came from God doesn't mean that they don't think there is value in worshiping together with others. Perhaps they are taking from the Church what they consider is important to them, what brings them closer to God and discarding what they consider to be man-made rules. Kind of like what Christ did when he scandalously picked an ear of corn on the Sabbath. 1
Gray Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 21 hours ago, bluebell said: I don't think this is a fact though. It's a fact of the lived experience of many people. 21 hours ago, bluebell said: It seems like people either believe that God requires obedience to certain commandments or they don't believe He requires that. And it seems like people are either willing to be obedient to commandments they believe come from God even if they don't understand or agree at first, or they just don't believe any of the commandments they disagree with come from God. That's one way to dismiss an entire religious tradition - Reformed Judaism. Even normative, orthodox Christianity is in some respects based on a collective agreement to "reject" the commandments of God (as in, rejecting the law of Moses).
hope_for_things Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 On 9/30/2018 at 1:06 AM, SteveO said: I’m not entirely sure what the point is in being a Mormon if you cut out all the parts that are unique. I guess we’d rather have everyone there than on the outside, but I think the mentality of being “half in” is...rather toxic. For example, in the case of the BYU student who stopped wearing her garments, that’s fine if that’s what she wants to do...but why then go and tell your roommates and friends? How do you even broach the subject of what kind of underwear you’ve decided to start wearing. It makes me think that none of this ultimately involves cases of a “quiet personal relationship with Christ”. It needs to be broadcasted to everyone else that you don’t sustain church leadership. That you don’t pay tithing. That you stopped wearing garments and don’t hold a temple recommend. There are scriptures that make known the mind of God concerning those who are fence sitters, with makes me think that this isn’t a particularly good thing that is taking place. There is a huge misunderstanding from many orthodox, towards those aren't as orthodox. I used to have the same misunderstanding when I was orthodox. As someone who's been in both positions, I can say how hurtful this misunderstanding can be for unorthodox people. If someone shows up and wants to participate, they should be included, accepted and appreciated. 2
Bernard Gui Posted October 1, 2018 Posted October 1, 2018 6 hours ago, california boy said: And if you don't buy into the 3 Kingdoms of Glory with the top one being exclusive for those few souls that find the church and actually can believe in it? Just because someone doesn't believe that all the rules of the Church came from God doesn't mean that they don't think there is value in worshiping together with others. Perhaps they are taking from the Church what they consider is important to them, what brings them closer to God and discarding what they consider to be man-made rules. Kind of like what Christ did when he scandalously picked an ear of corn on the Sabbath. 3 Kingdoms of Glory is not a man-made rule of the Church. It is foundational revelation and doctrine. It is unique to the LDS Church. So much of our beliefs and practices derive from it.....everything from faith, repentance, and baptism to eternal marriage. I truly do not understand how one could reject that and remain in the Church. What would be the point?
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