Changes, Changes, Changes? What is next?

[Bill “Papa” Lee]

Another thread asked about upcoming changes, or topics in Gerneral Conference, so if I may, let me extend this a bit. 

Every six months it makes perfect sense for Latter-Day Saints to speculate about upcoming topics. In keeping with that "tradition", what changes do any here foresee? 

While each ponder how they would answer what might happen on a grand level, I would ask what is changing on the local level? 

I have lived in the same home, my "final home", (I pray) for the past 41/2 years, yet I have been in four Wards, with three Bishoprics. This Sunday we were told that we would be having a special Stake Conference, on Oct 26th, and then a regular Stake Conference two weeks later. It is clear to all of us in the Stake, that both Stake boundaries and (probably) Ward boundaries will change; again. The building in which I meet is so close to the Stake Center, we have changed every single time the Stake has. These changes have brought about a lot of difficulties, the worst of which are those who have fallen through the cracks, or just thrown up their hands and given up. 

The other change, that at first brought about much buzz, so for it, so (like me) cautiously optimistic, had to do with Priesthood Quorums. There was a time when two Priesthood Quorums shared in the responsibilities of the adult membership. As of late, our Elders Quorum President is showing signs of stress, often crying as he points out the difficulties he now faces as the leader of a single group. Two weeks ago, it was very clear when in Sunday School a member of the Bishopric noted that there were "196" members in Sacrament, meaning there were "444", who were not in attendance. I almost broke into tears on behalf of my Elders Quorum President.

So, do things seem better or worse with the changes in Preisthood Quorums? 

Is participation up, or down in Ward and Stake activities?  

My Father used to say, (not his words, but good words) "Change for the sake of change is not always good"! I have noted over my many decades of membership and activity in the Church, that many tune in (especially when a new President is called) looking for change. Looking for things they can point too, like the announcement of new Temples, as signs of "Revelation". For instance, "Home Teaching", was always meant to be "Ministering", but changing the name, does not change the mission. In fact, in most cases, all it did was change was the name, as in most cases coming up with a new system, proved too difficult, and most people kept the same assignments. In the mists of this change, where reporting was changed, many are not seen at all. I have not been called, or contacted, or visited since this change happened. But old workhorses like myself who might feel like not returning, always do at the end of the day. When my wife and I see "old friends", not just old people, we say how much we miss them. Then often comes the reply, "no one else does it seems". 

I understand we belong to a growing Church, sometimes even a shrinking one to a degree. I understand the need for change, but seldom see how calling something by another name, or not calling something by another name changes much, if ever. 

Truly seeking your thoughts, "not" just venting. Thank you all in advance. 

[Tacenda]

6 hours ago, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Another thread asked about upcoming changes, or topics in Gerneral Conference, so if I may, let me extend this a bit. 

Every six months it makes perfect sense for Latter-Day Saints to speculate about upcoming topics. In keeping with that "tradition", what changes do any here foresee? 

While each ponder how they would answer what might happen on a grand level, I would ask what is changing on the local level? 

I have lived in the same home, my "final home", (I pray) for the past 41/2 years, yet I have been in four Wards, with three Bishoprics. This Sunday we were told that we would be having a special Stake Conference, on Oct 26th, and then a regular Stake Conference two weeks later. It is clear to all of us in the Stake, that both Stake boundaries and (probably) Ward boundaries will change; again. The building in which I meet is so close to the Stake Center, we have changed every single time the Stake has. These changes have brought about a lot of difficulties, the worst of which are those who have fallen through the cracks, or just thrown up their hands and given up. 

The other change, that at first brought about much buzz, so for it, so (like me) cautiously optimistic, had to do with Priesthood Quorums. There was a time when two Priesthood Quorums shared in the responsibilities of the adult membership. As of late, our Elders Quorum President is showing signs of stress, often crying as he points out the difficulties he now faces as the leader of a single group. Two weeks ago, it was very clear when in Sunday School a member of the Bishopric noted that there were "196" members in Sacrament, meaning there were "444", who were not in attendance. I almost broke into tears on behalf of my Elders Quorum President.

So, do things seem better or worse with the changes in Preisthood Quorums? 

Is participation up, or down in Ward and Stake activities?  

My Father used to say, (not his words, but good words) "Change for the sake of change is not always good"! I have noted over my many decades of membership and activity in the Church, that many tune in (especially when a new President is called) looking for change. Looking for things they can point too, like the announcement of new Temples, as signs of "Revelation". For instance, "Home Teaching", was always meant to be "Ministering", but changing the name, does not change the mission. In fact, in most cases, all it did was change was the name, as in most cases coming up with a new system, proved too difficult, and most people kept the same assignments. In the mists of this change, where reporting was changed, many are not seen at all. I have not been called, or contacted, or visited since this change happened. But old workhorses like myself who might feel like not returning, always do at the end of the day. When my wife and I see "old friends", not just old people, we say how much we miss them. Then often comes the reply, "no one else does it seems". 

I understand we belong to a growing Church, sometimes even a shrinking one to a degree. I understand the need for change, but seldom see how calling something by another name, or not calling something by another name changes much, if ever. 

Truly seeking your thoughts, "not" just venting. Thank you all in advance. 

I'm on the fringe, so disregard if you must, but my move to a new ward and neighborhood proved to be a huge disappointment. I started out by immediately letting my new bishop know of my circumstance. I asked to be called to a Compassionate Service position, hoping to be called on to help others. Instead the leader brought over a box of goodie bags for those that might need a lift for those that need to come by and pick it up and give out. At first I thought I was suppose to pass them around, but no, just make sure they are made and available for those that need them, but only one person came for a few bags. And then I was put with a partner to minister with and she is sooo busy as a Mo-Tab singer and a child that got married etc. I've called but she won't return my call, so being new, I've not felt brave enough to go it alone. But did go up to one of my ladies and speak to her at church and walked to her house and said hello. But my other ladies, I haven't done a thing. My bad. But it was disheartening to see that ministering isn't any better than visiting teaching. It was the same in my old ward, me almost having to feel like I bother people to get to visit them. I texted my RS president and she said they are re-doing the whole thing. So maybe it'll get better. But I've not been utilized at all as compassionate service person. Maybe everyone is just too busy PaPa. Maybe it's our age? I hope the new ward change in your stake will be a good step in the right direction!

Edited September 26, 2018 by Tacenda

[JLHPROF]

Change is the nature of mortality.  Progression is the nature of eternity.

Change and progression are not the same thing.

Which the Church has done is a matter of perspective and faith.

 

[theplains]

On 9/25/2018 at 10:05 PM, Tacenda said:

But I've not been utilized at all as compassionate service person. Maybe everyone is just too busy PaPa. Maybe it's our age? I hope the new ward change in your stake will be a good step in the right direction!

Let God be your guide as a compassionate service person.  You don't need a letter or direction from a local bishop.

Jim

[Danzo]

27 minutes ago, theplains said:

Let God be your guide as a compassionate service person.  You don't need a letter or direction from a local bishop.

Jim

I wholeheartedly agree  this should always be the case.  Waiting for a letter or direction shows having a need to be "commanded in all things"

 "For behold, it is not meet that I should command in all things; for he that is compelled in all things, the same is a slothful and not a wise servant; wherefore he receiveth no reward. Verily I say, men should be anxiously engaged in a good cause, and do many things of their own free will, and bring to pass much righteousness;  For the power is in them, wherein they are agents unto themselves. And inasmuch as men do good they shall in nowise lose their reward."

 

[Jeanne]

On 9/25/2018 at 8:05 PM, Tacenda said:

I'm on the fringe, so disregard if you must, but my move to a new ward and neighborhood proved to be a huge disappointment. I started out by immediately letting my new bishop know of my circumstance. I asked to be called to a Compassionate Service position, hoping to be called on to help others. Instead the leader brought over a box of goodie bags for those that might need a lift for those that need to come by and pick it up and give out. At first I thought I was suppose to pass them around, but no, just make sure they are made and available for those that need them, but only one person came for a few bags. And then I was put with a partner to minister with and she is sooo busy as a Mo-Tab singer and a child that got married etc. I've called but she won't return my call, so being new, I've not felt brave enough to go it alone. But did go up to one of my ladies and speak to her at church and walked to her house and said hello. But my other ladies, I haven't done a thing. My bad. But it was disheartening to see that ministering isn't any better than visiting teaching. It was the same in my old ward, me almost having to feel like I bother people to get to visit them. I texted my RS president and she said they are re-doing the whole thing. So maybe it'll get better. But I've not been utilized at all as compassionate service person. Maybe everyone is just too busy PaPa. Maybe it's our age? I hope the new ward change in your stake will be a good step in the right direction!

I am sorry about this...I know that this move was a great hope for you in understanding and comprehension of your issues...a kind of cry for help that was not answered.  Just know you are loved here and that we care about you. 

[Tacenda]

18 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I am sorry about this...I know that this move was a great hope for you in understanding and comprehension of your issues...a kind of cry for help that was not answered.  Just know you are loved here and that we care about you. 

You know me well, I've thought of this over and over again. Do I start by buying a really good loaf of bread and drop in, or do I call them first? The two ladies that I haven't visited? Or my other option is not try the LDS church any longer and move on to try other religions, or try out a new option and that is a group that isn't really a religion but meet often and do good for others. At least I'd be out there doing and meeting others. I think I'm way past the church, and the members in my ward have spoken loud and clear. Even the ward clerk who I've asked for help in getting onto LDS tools that has locked me out since the move. He's a no show as well. I really feel like the church is not going to waste their time with people on the fringe. So today I was think of calling the ladies or calling the RS president and get out of all my callings. Let someone that is more believing do this, surely I'm not a good example of what a faithful LDS person is. 

[Jeanne]

39 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

You know me well, I've thought of this over and over again. Do I start by buying a really good loaf of bread and drop in, or do I call them first? The two ladies that I haven't visited? Or my other option is not try the LDS church any longer and move on to try other religions, or try out a new option and that is a group that isn't really a religion but meet often and do good for others. At least I'd be out there doing and meeting others. I think I'm way past the church, and the members in my ward have spoken loud and clear. Even the ward clerk who I've asked for help in getting onto LDS tools that has locked me out since the move. He's a no show as well. I really feel like the church is not going to waste their time with people on the fringe. So today I was think of calling the ladies or calling the RS president and get out of all my callings. Let someone that is more believing do this, surely I'm not a good example of what a faithful LDS person is. 

You are so dedicated and have deep feelings.  I wish you many good things in or out of the religion or any religion.  Have you thought about patiently going at it alone..that is no religion..but with prayer for direction?  This is how i had to do it.  All I can say is that it has been a growing  experience.  You need your own path..I realize that.  But know that I am here for you as others are. I have not been on the board much this summer.  I have been so disappointed lately as this church as a people.  Their fear of showing courage is disheartening to me.  Their faith astounding but the empathy for love of others is so lacking to me. 

Edited to add:  This is not even close to the church that I grew up in...at least the church I thought I grew up in. I am at loss for words in the world of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Edited September 29, 2018 by Jeanne

[Tacenda]

46 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

You are so dedicated and have deep feelings.  I wish you many good things in or out of the religion or any religion.  Have you thought about patiently going at it alone..that is no religion..but with prayer for direction?  This is how i had to do it.  All I can say is that it has been a growing  experience.  You need your own path..I realize that.  But know that I am here for you as others are. I have not been on the board much this summer.  I have been so disappointed lately as this church as a people.  Their fear of showing courage is disheartening to me.  Their faith astounding but the empathy for love of others is so lacking to me. 

Edited to add:  This is not even close to the church that I grew up in...at least the church I thought I grew up in. I am at loss for words in the world of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

I agree on the bold. It's a whole different church. To have my bishop/r.s. president not stop by or call at all, and for me to continually call. I feel like a piranha, I wonder if people that are in the know, are aware of any direction about people like me. But I've probably derailed poor PaPa's thread, I continually do this, but not saying that you replying did that, I did. I always feel comforted by your thoughts, thanks Jeanne. I will definitely work on the prayer thing and already haven't been active for several weeks. Have you heard of the Oasis group? Thinking of trying it out. Not sure about a Bible church. 

Edited September 29, 2018 by Tacenda

[Rain]

On 9/25/2018 at 7:05 PM, Tacenda said:

I'm on the fringe, so disregard if you must, but my move to a new ward and neighborhood proved to be a huge disappointment. I started out by immediately letting my new bishop know of my circumstance. I asked to be called to a Compassionate Service position, hoping to be called on to help others. Instead the leader brought over a box of goodie bags for those that might need a lift for those that need to come by and pick it up and give out. At first I thought I was suppose to pass them around, but no, just make sure they are made and available for those that need them, but only one person came for a few bags. And then I was put with a partner to minister with and she is sooo busy as a Mo-Tab singer and a child that got married etc. I've called but she won't return my call, so being new, I've not felt brave enough to go it alone. But did go up to one of my ladies and speak to her at church and walked to her house and said hello. But my other ladies, I haven't done a thing. My bad. But it was disheartening to see that ministering isn't any better than visiting teaching. It was the same in my old ward, me almost having to feel like I bother people to get to visit them. I texted my RS president and she said they are re-doing the whole thing. So maybe it'll get better. But I've not been utilized at all as compassionate service person. Maybe everyone is just too busy PaPa. Maybe it's our age? I hope the new ward change in your stake will be a good step in the right direction!

Tacenda - I mean this with love in my heart and I will do my best to say it, but I'm afraid it may not come across that way. 

I think it is time to stop feeling like you are on the fringe, that others are against you and don't care. I know easier said than done, but over and over you seem to be stuck there and it is only causing you pain.  When you post about not being cared for, you often post how you show by your actions that same level of helping others as they are giving to you.  

Elder Ballard had a talk on bees where each bee contributed a teeny, tiny amount of honey. He encouraged us to daily pray for people we could help.  Try it and then go out and find the one he is guiding you to. 

ThePlains was right - you don't need to be told what to do in Compassionate Service. Years ago I was without a calling for awhile. I really wanted to serve. As I prayed I found God was giving me a great opportunity  - I could choose my own calling by choosing how to serve someone each day! 

Years ago I read something that struck me. Now I know there is more to this, but what I heard was "next year on this date you can weigh less than what you do today or you can weigh more. The choice is yours." 

On Sept 29, 2019 you can still be hurting, frustrated etc over people not serving you or you can be fulfilled by getting out there and serving others. The choice is yours. Start today and make yourself feel better by going out and serving others. Find a notebook. Write down the date.  Write how you feel today. Number from 1-365 for each day. Then fill it over the year with how you have served others and see how your feelings have changed.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Rain

[Garden Girl]

2 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I agree on the bold. It's a whole different church. To have my bishop/r.s. president not stop by or call at all, and for me to continually call. I feel like a piranha, I wonder if people that are in the know, are aware of any direction about people like me. But I've probably derailed poor PaPa's thread, I continually do this, but not saying that you replying did that, I did. I always feel comforted by your thoughts, thanks Jeanne. I will definitely work on the prayer thing and already haven't been active for several weeks. Have you heard of the Oasis group? Thinking of trying it out. Not sure about a Bible church. 

I can't tell you and Jeanne how I hope you both will not give up on the Church... because the people fall short...  that's different than the Church per se (even though we do look upon the people as the "church"... flawed though we people are)... these times are difficult in so many ways... too often we all get caught up in our own lives in these difficult times.  More women have to work (not as a choice but as necessity) to help with the expense of a home and family.    I have such a different ward experience than either of you, and so have a hard time understanding your feeling that it is a "whole different Church."  This does not lessen, however,  my sympathy and empathy for your experience.  Now, with ministering, I personally look and/or pray for guidance when it comes to "ministering."  There's numerous ways I can personally ease someone's burden... I'm good at sending cards and/or letters of encouragement to sisters I know are struggling... I can offer an afternoon of babysitting to give a busy mom the opportunity of some alone time for shopping, etc... I can invite a sister to go to the hair salon for a treat of a shampoo/set (something that is a small luxury to me).  And there's always the baked cake or casserole as a surprise.  And the meal I prepare for the missionaries each month... 

And, outside the Church, I can volunteer (I used to feed the fish at the Oregon St Univ Marine Science Acquarium and Research Center... and be a docent during Whale Watch week, along one of the 18 coastal sites such as the sea wall in Depoe Bay... etc etc).  And financial donations to several charities...   there's numerous useful ways to be of service, both in and out of the Church.  And my efforts always give me a sense of purpose and satisfaction... and are always accompanied by  prayer... as part of living the gospel...

I encourage you both... 

GG

 

[Rain]

On 9/25/2018 at 12:23 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

Another thread asked about upcoming changes, or topics in Gerneral Conference, so if I may, let me extend this a bit. 

Every six months it makes perfect sense for Latter-Day Saints to speculate about upcoming topics. In keeping with that "tradition", what changes do any here foresee? 

While each ponder how they would answer what might happen on a grand level, I would ask what is changing on the local level? 

I have lived in the same home, my "final home", (I pray) for the past 41/2 years, yet I have been in four Wards, with three Bishoprics. This Sunday we were told that we would be having a special Stake Conference, on Oct 26th, and then a regular Stake Conference two weeks later. It is clear to all of us in the Stake, that both Stake boundaries and (probably) Ward boundaries will change; again. The building in which I meet is so close to the Stake Center, we have changed every single time the Stake has. These changes have brought about a lot of difficulties, the worst of which are those who have fallen through the cracks, or just thrown up their hands and given up. 

The other change, that at first brought about much buzz, so for it, so (like me) cautiously optimistic, had to do with Priesthood Quorums. There was a time when two Priesthood Quorums shared in the responsibilities of the adult membership. As of late, our Elders Quorum President is showing signs of stress, often crying as he points out the difficulties he now faces as the leader of a single group. Two weeks ago, it was very clear when in Sunday School a member of the Bishopric noted that there were "196" members in Sacrament, meaning there were "444", who were not in attendance. I almost broke into tears on behalf of my Elders Quorum President.

So, do things seem better or worse with the changes in Preisthood Quorums? 

Is participation up, or down in Ward and Stake activities?  

My Father used to say, (not his words, but good words) "Change for the sake of change is not always good"! I have noted over my many decades of membership and activity in the Church, that many tune in (especially when a new President is called) looking for change. Looking for things they can point too, like the announcement of new Temples, as signs of "Revelation". For instance, "Home Teaching", was always meant to be "Ministering", but changing the name, does not change the mission. In fact, in most cases, all it did was change was the name, as in most cases coming up with a new system, proved too difficult, and most people kept the same assignments. In the mists of this change, where reporting was changed, many are not seen at all. I have not been called, or contacted, or visited since this change happened. But old workhorses like myself who might feel like not returning, always do at the end of the day. When my wife and I see "old friends", not just old people, we say how much we miss them. Then often comes the reply, "no one else does it seems". 

I understand we belong to a growing Church, sometimes even a shrinking one to a degree. I understand the need for change, but seldom see how calling something by another name, or not calling something by another name changes much, if ever. 

Truly seeking your thoughts, "not" just venting. Thank you all in advance. 

The things that have happened in your ward are so odd compared with everything else I have heard. You talked about how everyone felt about it when it first came out. I almost wonder if that is a self fulfilling prophecy. What if you became the local change - if you decided to be openly positive about it for the next 6 months if that attitude would catch fire and you would see some positive changes?

- 

Here is what I am seeing in myself and ward. In ministering I am not seeing any change for myself, but then I always felt and was taught that visiting teaching should work like ministering does - seeing needs and helping with those. It was the same for my husband.

With the ministering brothers that visit us then no change.

With my ministering companion I see a big change. We have a sister that needs a LOT of help (alzheimers, heart problems and more with little family help). Before, my companion got anxious to make sure we did something and got credit, she needed to have a lesson taught.  She did not feel comfortable doing any of it on her own or letting me do it on my own even when scheduling together was a nightmare. Now with the change of vocabulary she finally understands what is most important is that we help this sister with her needs, sometimes together, but often apart and it gives her more peace. Now, I can take our sister to the doctor, she can take her to get her medicine and we can both take her to lunch together without my companion worrying if it is approved.

If people are not being seen it isn't a program fault. It is because the ministering sisters and brothers never really had an understanding of just what ministering means - they were doing it because it was expected. The thing ministering does better than home and teaching did was show who was actually ministering and who was just checking off the box when it was still home and visiting teaching.

Edited September 30, 2018 by Rain

[cdowis]

 

Quote

This is not even close to the church that I grew up in...at least the church I thought I grew up in. I am at loss for words in the world of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

Long gone are the days when apostles presided over every  stake conference, and there were two sessions.  There were very few stakes east of the Mississippi, and we had to go to the Manti temple, with live sessions.

Edited September 29, 2018 by cdowis

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Jeanne said:

Edited to add:  This is not even close to the church that I grew up in...at least the church I thought I grew up in. I am at loss for words in the world of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

The Church has changed considerably over the decades and centuries.  20 years from now it will be even more different.  The problem is that nobody gets all the things changed that they want or all the things left unaltered that they want.

The Church has no obligation to give the people what they want.  Only to give them what God wants and needs them to have.  Whether the Church is doing that correctly may be debatable but there is no obligation to do what we want.

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I agree on the bold. It's a whole different church. To have my bishop/r.s. president not stop by or call at all, and for me to continually call. I feel like a piranha, I wonder if people that are in the know, are aware of any direction about people like me. But I've probably derailed poor PaPa's thread, I continually do this, but not saying that you replying did that, I did. I always feel comforted by your thoughts, thanks Jeanne. I will definitely work on the prayer thing and already haven't been active for several weeks. Have you heard of the Oasis group? Thinking of trying it out. Not sure about a Bible church. 

 

2 hours ago, Rain said:

Tacenda - I mean this with love in my heart and I will do my best to say it, but I'm afraid it may not come across that way. 

I think it is time to stop feeling like you are on the fringe, that others are against you and don't care. I know easier said than done, but over and over you seem to be stuck there and it is only causing you pain.  When you post about not being cared for, you often post how you show by your actions that same level of helping others as they are giving to you.  

I agree with GG.  Tacenda, I have gotten to know you a bit here over the years.  You are a good Christian woman.  But you continually approach your faith challenges with Mormonism backwards.

You continue to seek answers so that your faith will be strengthened and allow you to believe again.  That's not how faith works.

You have to decide you believe, act in belief, stop constantly fighting against your faith, and then ask God for the answers.  God will never provide answers to create faith, only to those who have chosen to believe first.

Edited September 30, 2018 by JLHPROF

[Guest]

4 hours ago, Garden Girl said:

I can't tell you and Jeanne how I hope you both will not give up on the Church... because the people fall short...  that's different than the Church per se (even though we do look upon the people as the "church"... flawed though we people are)... these times are difficult in so many ways... too often we all get caught up in our own lives in these difficult times.

GG

 

Good words, I too wish others would not give up on the Church. Yes there are problems, and flawed men and women, are the source of many other those problems. Other problems can and do occurs when new directions have not fully been explained, and where they have, not been properly implemented. When these moments arise in me, and start feeling overwhelmed, I just remember my own flaws, and if I am not willing to demand perfection in my self, then I will not do so in others. My Faith is strong, and it will be my Faith until Idie. I am just finding myself a bit "lost and floundering". When this happens, I try to put my "shoulder to the wheel", and seek to loose my life, in the lives of others, through service. Only then I am I lifted out the despair that is too often my "constant companion", but when I serve, read, ponder, pray, and get to work, the Holy Spirit, become "my constant companion". 

BYW: The Sister of the ministering side of the coin is working well. It is our Preisthood that is just calling Home Teaching, by another name. Even still people DO slip through the cracks on both sides. I was called by my Elder's Quorum President, and asked to sit, and the home of one of our older Sisters, who could not get out. So, the Sacrament stopped being taken, due to new Ward boundaries, and other assignments. I was to go and a serve the "Hazmat Team", clean in and around the property. She passed away, and it was quite a while before her body was discovered. I had to be there for family, to insure nothing was stolen, by the "County Crew", so when it was time, her family flying in can secure the home and its contents. 

So please, no one, especially me...don't give up!! 

[Rivers]

[Bane]

I wish that we could restore the original temple ceremony.  I don't like the changes that have occurred.  I feel like we have less than the fullness now.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bane said:

I wish that we could restore the original temple ceremony.  I don't like the changes that have occurred.  I feel like we have less than the fullness now.

You wish to wear the full original garment as well?

[Rain]

5 hours ago, Bane said:

I wish that we could restore the original temple ceremony.  I don't like the changes that have occurred.  I feel like we have less than the fullness now.

Wasn't the original one something like 5 or 7 hours long?

[changed]

On 9/25/2018 at 2:23 PM, Bill "Papa" Lee said:

"196" members in Sacrament, meaning there were "444", who were not in attendance. I almost broke into tears on behalf of my Elders Quorum President.

When my wife and I see "old friends", not just old people, we say how much we miss them. Then often comes the reply, "no one else does it seems". 

 

As one of the 444 (who is not at church right now), I suggested to our bishop they should form a "faith crisis" or "faith transition" support group.  A group to support partial member families, or support those who are not "all in", a group for those who are questioning things, a group for those who do not feel comfortable in normal meetings. 

I do not go to church because any genuine questions I would ask or genuine comments I would have would be considered contentious and inappropriate.  Our ward has buttons "All-in", and those who are not "all-in" are not invited.  I cannot support priesthood leaders (after one of them molested my child.).  I cannot support excluding the innocent children of LGBT families.  I cannot support glossing over painful church history - of whitewashing and ignoring the priesthood ban, of supporting an adulterous past with polygamy and polyandry - of a prophet who married a 14yo girl.  I cannot trust and follow apostles - when Judas was an apostle.  Praying to a God who allows genocide.... Testimony in the restoration to me is equal to testimony in the apostasy - testimony that God turned his back on every man, woman and child on the entire earth for hundreds of years.  Would a loving God turn his back on innocent children - leave the world in darkness - for hundreds of years?  ... A testimony in the restoration?  Do you have a  testimony that God abandoned the entire world for thousands of years??? God abandons us, rejects us, turns his back on us, but we are supposed to support and have faith in him? 

 I should go church to "support my family", but it sickens me.  The doctrines sicken me.   The history sickens me.  No one will answer my real questions.  No one wants me to come to church and"kill the spirit"  No one can convince me that there is an all-powerful, all-loving God.

 

Edited September 30, 2018 by changed

[Jeanne]

2 hours ago, changed said:

 

As one of the 444 (who is not at church right now), I suggested to our bishop they should form a "faith crisis" or "faith transition" support group.  A group to support partial member families, or support those who are not "all in", a group for those who are questioning things, a group for those who do not feel comfortable in normal meetings. 

I do not go to church because any genuine questions I would ask or genuine comments I would have would be considered contentious and inappropriate.  Our ward has buttons "All-in", and those who are not "all-in" are not invited.  I cannot support priesthood leaders (after one of them molested my child.).  I cannot support excluding the innocent children of LGBT families.  I cannot support glossing over painful church history - of whitewashing and ignoring the priesthood ban, of supporting an adulterous past with polygamy and polyandry - of a prophet who married a 14yo girl.  I cannot trust and follow apostles - when Judas was an apostle.  Praying to a God who allows genocide.... Testimony in the restoration to me is equal to testimony in the apostasy - testimony that God turned his back on every man, woman and child on the entire earth for hundreds of years.  Would a loving God turn his back on innocent children - leave the world in darkness - for hundreds of years?  ... A testimony in the restoration?  Do you have a  testimony that God abandoned the entire world for thousands of years??? God abandons us, rejects us, turns his back on us, but we are supposed to support and have faith in him? 

 I should go church to "support my family", but it sickens me.  The doctrines sicken me.   The history sickens me.  No one will answer my real questions.  No one wants me to come to church and"kill the spirit"  No one can convince me that there is an all-powerful, all-loving God.

 

If anyone even hears your voice...it will be your fault.  How sad is that?  I hear you.

[Tacenda]

34 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

If anyone even hears your voice...it will be your fault.  How sad is that?  I hear you.

I second that!

[Bane]

7 hours ago, Calm said:

You wish to wear the full original garment as well?

I would do so.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Bane said:

I would do so.

Get good insurance for heat stroke than.