collective intelligence and the quorum of twelve apostles

[blueglass]

Three years ago Aug 2015 Elder Oaks posted on facebook in tandem with the only sisters in the church permitted to use Handbook1, Sister Burton, Oscarson, and Wixom that they would now be invited to represent on three executive councils.

Temple and Family History Executive Council, Missionary Executive Council, and the new Priesthood and Family Executive Council

https://www.lds.org/church/news/women-to-take-part-on-general-church-councils?lang=eng

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/20/mormon-church-makes-first-ever-appointments-of-women-to-councils

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2862868&itype=CMSID

As noted by Sister Okazaki in a fantastic dialogue interview in 2005, the general relief society presidency had requested in the 90's for inclusion on these councils and they were turned down.  

Question:  What has changed as a result of including female leadership on these councils?  How has it changed how local leadership councils are conducted? 

More recently
President Nelson in April 2018 dropped the PEC, and stake conferences which for a long time had a priesthood leadership training before the adult session on Saturday in which only men were invited, will now include women.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/04/03/pec-is-dead-long-live-the-councils/

Question:  Who has participated in one of these stake conference training councils in which females are now represented?  How has training improved, spirit of the meeting, discussion and resolving problems? 

Finally, recently we taught gospel principles chapters 13 - 17 on the priesthood, priesthood organization, and organization of the primitive and latter-day church.  The discussion was saturated with male leadership offices, keys, and priesthood discussion with no updates from Elder Oaks 2014 talk. Also no discussion on relief society or of a single woman influential in early christianity.  I thought this was a huge missed opportunity.  Especially when our gospel principles classes the last few months were comprised of 10 women including full-time sister missionaries, some new converts and others learning about the restored gospel for the first time.

Question:  What if women were included in the gospel principles curriculum pertaining to priesthood?  A lesson on Relief Society?  A lesson on women in the early church?  A lesson on women leadership roles in the latter-day church councils?  A lesson on how women are instrumental in moving forward the work of the priesthood?  

Final question:  What if the quorum of the twelve apostles is functioning with less capacity in terms of general intelligence performance, or held back in collective intelligence as a result of excluding the daughters of our heavenly parents?  If women were included in the seventy, and quorum of twelve apostles would this be pleasing to our heavenly parents?

Why consider?  New research shows that the collective intelligence of teams which include more women is much higher than those with only high intelligence individuals which are all male.  People would think that if you just pushed as many high IQ individuals as possible into a team the collective intelligence would dominate?  Well actually no.  In a way we have this with the quorum of the twelve.  High IQ individuals with PhD's, M.D/PhD, JD's, and ivy league schools does not mean they exhibit higher collective intelligence than a prospective council comprised of both male and female.    See the work cited below by psychologist Christopher Chabris, and Anita Williams Woolley and Thomas W. Malone.  
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2017/10/01/yanss-111-some-groups-are-smarter-than-others-and-psychologists-want-to-understand-why/

https://hbr.org/2011/06/defend-your-research-what-makes-a-team-smarter-more-women

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/330/6004/686

Do we have any evidence that the general or collective intelligence of the highest councils of our church has reached its highest potential?  Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."  Attaining the highest collective, general, social, and spiritual intelligence should be of paramount importance for our church councils and would be blessed with the endowed power of women.  

Why the big change in 2015 to invite female representation on councils?  Why the change to include females in leadership council training for stake conferences?  Why wouldn't improvements translate well into the highest councils as well?  Why a divine council which includes women?  why an anointed quorum which included women?  

Edited September 16, 2018 by blueglass

[mfbukowski]

51 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Three years ago Aug 2015 Elder Oaks posted on facebook in tandem with the only sisters in the church permitted to use Handbook1, Sister Burton, Oscarson, and Wixom that they would now be invited to represent on three executive councils.

Temple and Family History Executive Council, Missionary Executive Council, and the new Priesthood and Family Executive Council

https://www.lds.org/church/news/women-to-take-part-on-general-church-councils?lang=eng

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/aug/20/mormon-church-makes-first-ever-appointments-of-women-to-councils

http://archive.sltrib.com/article.php?id=2862868&itype=CMSID

As noted by Sister Okazaki in a fantastic dialogue interview in 2005, the general relief society presidency had requested in the 90's for inclusion on these councils and they were turned down.  

Question:  What has changed as a result of including female leadership on these councils?  How has it changed how local leadership councils are conducted? 

More recently
President Nelson in April 2018 dropped the PEC, and stake conferences which for a long time had a priesthood leadership training before the adult session on Saturday in which only men were invited, will now include women.

https://bycommonconsent.com/2018/04/03/pec-is-dead-long-live-the-councils/

Question:  Who has participated in one of these stake conference training councils in which females are now represented?  How has training improved, spirit of the meeting, discussion and resolving problems? 

Finally, recently we taught gospel principles chapters 13 - 17 on the priesthood, priesthood organization, and organization of the primitive and latter-day church.  The discussion was saturated with male leadership offices, keys, and priesthood discussion with no updates from Elder Oaks 2014 talk. Also no discussion on relief society or of a single woman influential in early christianity.  I thought this was a huge missed opportunity.  Especially when our gospel principles classes the last few months were comprised of 10 women including full-time sister missionaries, some new converts and others learning about the restored gospel for the first time.

Question:  What if women were included in the gospel principles curriculum pertaining to priesthood?  A lesson on Relief Society?  A lesson on women in the early church?  A lesson on women leadership roles in the latter-day church councils?  A lesson on how women are instrumental in moving forward the work of the priesthood?  

Final question:  What if the quorum of the twelve apostles is functioning with less capacity in terms of general intelligence performance, or held back in collective intelligence as a result of excluding the daughters of our heavenly parents?  If women were included in the seventy, and quorum of twelve apostles would this be pleasing to our heavenly parents?

Why consider?  New research shows that the collective intelligence of teams which include more women is much higher than those with only high intelligence individuals which are all male.  People would think that if you just pushed as many high IQ individuals as possible into a team the collective intelligence would dominate?  Well actually no.  In a way we have this with the quorum of the twelve.  High IQ individuals with PhD's, M.D/PhD, JD's, and ivy league schools does not mean they exhibit higher collective intelligence than a prospective council comprised of both male and female.    See the work cited below by psychologist Christopher Chabris, and Anita Williams Woolley and Thomas W. Malone.  
https://youarenotsosmart.com/2017/10/01/yanss-111-some-groups-are-smarter-than-others-and-psychologists-want-to-understand-why/

https://hbr.org/2011/06/defend-your-research-what-makes-a-team-smarter-more-women

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/330/6004/686

Do we have any evidence that the general or collective intelligence of the highest councils of our church has reached its highest potential?  Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."  Attaining the highest collective, general, social, and spiritual intelligence should be of paramount importance for our church councils and would be blessed with the endowed power of women.  

Why the big change in 2015 to invite female representation on councils?  Why the change to include females in leadership council training for stake conferences?  Why wouldn't improvements translate well into the highest councils as well?  Why a divine council which includes women?  why an anointed quorum which included women?  

Well I am all in favor of changing that meeting and including the stake leadership among the sisters and including having them speak.

But I think you're a mistake and that church wide this meeting has been changed to reflect that.

I would like to see any official quote from president Nelson showing that that happened at the April conference, I believe it did not.

On the other hand, the door is certainly open for individual steaks to make that decision. In fact in a recent High council meeting we discussed doing our next stake conference that way. 

I think it's a great idea and I fully support it I just have not sure that in fact that was a change made during that conference.

And just to clarify that meeting was never a PEC meeting.

It was a meeting to which all PEC members were strongly invited and it could be opened to anyone else the SP desired, most notably Aaronic priesthood leaders.

To me that flyer was simply evidence that that particular stake had made that decision. I still see no evidence that it was announced in General Conference that it should be that way.

Maybe I am wrong but I have not seen anything official to that effect.

I also fully support your idea of collective intelligence. To me it is clear that when one excludes 50% of humanity in thinking about important issues such a decision totally unjustifiable. God created man and woman as a team and to exclude 1/2 of what should be the decision making intelligence is ridiculous.

Edited September 16, 2018 by mfbukowski

[Storm Rider]

1 hour ago, blueglass said:

 "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."  Attaining the highest collective, general, social, and spiritual intelligence should be of paramount importance...."

 

Could you please elaborate on the relationship between intelligence and gender?  I have never read a study that alleged that intelligence was related to the gonads of an individual. 

[Robert F. Smith]

On 9/15/2018 at 7:02 PM, blueglass said:

......................................................

Do we have any evidence that the general or collective intelligence of the highest councils of our church has reached its highest potential?  Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."  Attaining the highest collective, general, social, and spiritual intelligence should be of paramount importance for our church councils and would be blessed with the endowed power of women.  

Why the big change in 2015 to invite female representation on councils?  Why the change to include females in leadership council training for stake conferences?  Why wouldn't improvements translate well into the highest councils as well?  Why a divine council which includes women?  why an anointed quorum which included women?  

We probably need to get away from the sorry notion that high IQ (individual or collective) is so important.  Indeed, as you point out, intelligence of various kinds runs the gamut.  A good reason for including women is complementarity:  Women can add an essential quality of judgment which is crucial to effective decision-making.  Aside from noting (with Isaac Asimov) that excluding women excludes half of all geniuses, there is the socio-cultural POV which is absent without their central input.  There is also the important matter of style.  Moreover, anything which can get us away from the dangers of "group think" should be helpful.

I have no problem with female prophets, apostles, or seventies, but there is the question of priesthood:  Can or should women hold it?  Is it a matter of doctrine?  Is it God's will, which trumps everything else?  In the near term, we are unlikely to see radical change, but the increased level of female representation and consultation is understandable based on current attitudes in the West.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Robert F. Smith

[JLHPROF]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Could you please elaborate on the relationship between intelligence and gender?  I have never read a study that alleged that intelligence was related to the gonads of an individual. 

Knowledge of truth and increased understanding can come to any of us through our experiences in life.  Life is the great teacher.

Do you believe that there are life experiences exclusive to each gender?  If so then we are required to acknowledge that each gender can be in possession of truths that the other may lack.

Intelligence is light and truth according to scripture.  Increasing in possession of truths would  have a corresponding effect on increasing in intelligence.

[RevTestament]

4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Could you please elaborate on the relationship between intelligence and gender?  I have never read a study that alleged that intelligence was related to the gonads of an individual. 

Females generally have a higher language intelligence than males, while males generally excel at 3D and geometric intelligence. There are several other types of intelligences which vary by gender - males are more often visual learners than women - women have a higher tendency to excel at verbal learning, etc.

[Storm Rider]

6 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Females generally have a higher language intelligence than males, while males generally excel at 3D and geometric intelligence. There are several other types of intelligences which vary by gender - males are more often visual learners than women - women have a higher tendency to excel at verbal learning, etc.

So based upon your statement and assuming that you profess that intelligence is definitely related to gender then no male has higher language intelligence and no female has 3D and geometric intelligence as well as many other areas - you really sticking to that premise?

[CMZ]

48 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

So based upon your statement and assuming that you profess that intelligence is definitely related to gender then no male has higher language intelligence and no female has 3D and geometric intelligence as well as many other areas - you really sticking to that premise?

RevTestament did use the term "generally."

[katherine the great]

15 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Could you please elaborate on the relationship between intelligence and gender?  I have never read a study that alleged that intelligence was related to the gonads of an individual. 

Did you really read his post? I read this more as about the difference between individual intelligence and collective intelligence.

I think the primary question is: Can a government that is entirely male (albeit extremely intelligent men) be as effective governing a male/female organization as a government that includes female representation?

At least that is how I interpret the gist of this thread.

[katherine the great]

17 hours ago, blueglass said:

Do we have any evidence that the general or collective intelligence of the highest councils of our church has reached its highest potential?  Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."  Attaining the highest collective, general, social, and spiritual intelligence should be of paramount importance for our church councils and would be blessed with the endowed power of women. 

Interesting thoughts. There are several things to consider when entertaining the idea of intelligence. IQ (which I think you are referencing in regard to the brethren since you cite their education levels) is really simply the capacity to learn. Yes, these are probably all relatively high IQ individuals. The biological definition of intelligence is broadly the ability to adapt to changing environments. And yet the spiritual definition of intelligence is "light and truth" which neither of the other definitions consider. I don't think having a government of people with high capacities to learn will translate to an influx of light and truth. But I do completely agree that women need to be an integral part of all decisions making since these decisions affect us and our lives as much as the men in the church.

I'm interested in your references to collective intelligence and will take the time and read your links.

[CV75]

20 hours ago, blueglass said:

Do we have any evidence that the general or collective intelligence of the highest councils of our church has reached its highest potential?  Doctrine and Covenants 93:36 "The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth."  Attaining the highest collective, general, social, and spiritual intelligence should be of paramount importance for our church councils and would be blessed with the endowed power of women.  

Why the big change in 2015 to invite female representation on councils?  Why the change to include females in leadership council training for stake conferences?  Why wouldn't improvements translate well into the highest councils as well?  Why a divine council which includes women?  why an anointed quorum which included women?  

There are scriptural/spiritual meanings to intelligence and there are secular definitions. I think when it comes to discussing priesthood order, we need to go with the former.

Of course decision process goes better when everyone is involved in the right spirit and on the right council. I think women are getting more involved because it has proven to work better, and I’ve seen efforts made to make this happen since the early 90s. And I can say I’ve been involved in ward and stake leadership trainings long before 2015. Not everyone listens or understands, so it takes time. Generations. Plus, the world needs to get even smaller than it has become in order that all the saints in all the world get on the same page.

The priesthood order is manifest in so many contexts that men are not appropriate for inclusion in some settings and applications, and women are not appropriate for inclusion in others. But both are appropriate for involvement in most settings and ultimately there is only one order (The Church of the Firstborn).

Your OP seems to focus on the priesthood office which is a subset of the larger order in relation to the kingdom of God on earth. I believe these offices are temporary. The Lord has His reasons for setting things up this way from the start (taking the scriptures about it at face value), and we have no other explanation though it seems to work only when the men in the Church serve in the right spirit.

I suspect that the more involvement women have, the less conflating we will see of priesthood office with the power of God by members of both sexes. All need to work in the right council and with the right spirit to do that. That to me is an example of intelligence in action.

Edited September 16, 2018 by CV75

[Maidservant]

4 hours ago, CV75 said:

The priesthood order is manifest in so many contexts that men are not appropriate for inclusion in some settings and applications, and women are not appropriate for inclusion in others. But both are appropriate for involvement in most settings and ultimately there is only one order (The Church of the Firstborn).

Love.

[blueglass]

On 9/15/2018 at 9:52 PM, mfbukowski said:

Well I am all in favor of changing that meeting and including the stake leadership among the sisters and including having them speak.

But I think you're a mistake and that church wide this meeting has been changed to reflect that.

I would like to see any official quote from president Nelson showing that that happened at the April conference, I believe it did not.

On the other hand, the door is certainly open for individual steaks to make that decision. In fact in a recent High council meeting we discussed doing our next stake conference that way. 

I think it's a great idea and I fully support it I just have not sure that in fact that was a change made during that conference.

And just to clarify that meeting was never a PEC meeting.

It was a meeting to which all PEC members were strongly invited and it could be opened to anyone else the SP desired, most notably Aaronic priesthood leaders.

To me that flyer was simply evidence that that particular stake had made that decision. I still see no evidence that it was announced in General Conference that it should be that way.

Maybe I am wrong but I have not seen anything official to that effect.

I also fully support your idea of collective intelligence. To me it is clear that when one excludes 50% of humanity in thinking about important issues such a decision totally unjustifiable. God created man and woman as a team and to exclude 1/2 of what should be the decision making intelligence is ridiculous.

Yes, I think it was my mistake to conflate the two.  The 18.3.3. stake training meeting will invite the stake PEC, but is not the stake PEC meeting.  From the invite list looks like it is still all male, which means this Baltimore stake is just trying something new. 
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/meetings-in-the-church/18.3.3?lang=eng#183

The Stake priesthood executive committee meeting was the one cancelled and replaced with the new (high council meeting) 2x/month. 

I found this cached document from Elder Wirthlin and younger Elder Nelson requiring ward PEC meeting to be held weekly, and stake leadership meeting to be held quarterly.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XBdpesdmVrcJ:https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/09/news-of-the-church/modifications-of-meetings-and-a-new-form%3Flang%3Deng+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

[mfbukowski]

4 hours ago, blueglass said:

Yes, I think it was my mistake to conflate the two.  The 18.3.3. stake training meeting will invite the stake PEC, but is not the stake PEC meeting.  From the invite list looks like it is still all male, which means this Baltimore stake is just trying something new. 
https://www.lds.org/handbook/handbook-2-administering-the-church/meetings-in-the-church/18.3.3?lang=eng#183

The Stake priesthood executive committee meeting was the one cancelled and replaced with the new (high council meeting) 2x/month. 

I found this cached document from Elder Wirthlin and younger Elder Nelson requiring ward PEC meeting to be held weekly, and stake leadership meeting to be held quarterly.

https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:XBdpesdmVrcJ:https://www.lds.org/ensign/1987/09/news-of-the-church/modifications-of-meetings-and-a-new-form%3Flang%3Deng+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

 

Yes it's hard to keep all the meetings straight unless one has to attend them.

But that cached link is incorrect- notice it mentions the High Priests group which no longer exists!  The information is obsolete- not sure where those dates came from- some kind of glitch.  NOTICE that the date of the page is 1987!!

The meetings now are about the same as they always have been- you put them on your calendar and show up and then figure out what this one is called after you arrive! 

If sisters want to attend I think that's a great idea!! A little diversity of opinion and a different point of view changes everything!  But typically they are not too.....interesting.  Lots of repetition.

Quote

 

The Stake priesthood executive committee meeting was the one cancelled and replaced with the new (high council meeting) 2x/month. 

 

Just fyi High Council has ALWAYS met twice a month in my 20 years or so of awareness- first on HC then a bishop and straight back to HC.

Every two weeks.  For eternity. 

They changed the name to Stake PEC for awhile then I think changed it back to HC again but there was no change in what was discussed etc.

The Sister Presidents of the Primary, YW, RS, as well as the male Sunday School and YM  presidents join us once a quarter to report on their organizations.  It has always been that way in our stake.  I think they call that one "Stake Council" meeting.

As far as I see it, the changes are in name only while keeping the same participants/ formats/ subject  matter.

 

Edited September 18, 2018 by mfbukowski

[blueglass]

On 9/16/2018 at 5:45 PM, CV75 said:

There are scriptural/spiritual meanings to intelligence and there are secular definitions. I think when it comes to discussing priesthood order, we need to go with the former.

Of course decision process goes better when everyone is involved in the right spirit and on the right council. I think women are getting more involved because it has proven to work better, and I’ve seen efforts made to make this happen since the early 90s. And I can say I’ve been involved in ward and stake leadership trainings long before 2015. Not everyone listens or understands, so it takes time. Generations. Plus, the world needs to get even smaller than it has become in order that all the saints in all the world get on the same page.

The priesthood order is manifest in so many contexts that men are not appropriate for inclusion in some settings and applications, and women are not appropriate for inclusion in others. But both are appropriate for involvement in most settings and ultimately there is only one order (The Church of the Firstborn).

Your OP seems to focus on the priesthood office which is a subset of the larger order in relation to the kingdom of God on earth. I believe these offices are temporary. The Lord has His reasons for setting things up this way from the start (taking the scriptures about it at face value), and we have no other explanation though it seems to work only when the men in the Church serve in the right spirit.

I suspect that the more involvement women have, the less conflating we will see of priesthood office with the power of God by members of both sexes. All need to work in the right council and with the right spirit to do that. That to me is an example of intelligence in action.

The duties of an apostle include the following:  

“focus on individuals and families and bear witness of Christ.”  Elder Bednar Aug2010
Apostle means "one sent forth"
ordained to be closest disciples and helpers during his ministry on earth Luke 6:13
Sent to represent Him and to minister for Him after His Ascension 1Cor15:3-9
Special witness of Jesus Christ in all the world, Acts1:8
Testify of His divinity
Testify of His resurrection from the dead Acts 1:22

From what I have read in the scriptures I don't see anything which prevents women from accomplishing all of these duties. 

The invitation to become apostles and prophets is upon all of us 1Cor 12: 29-31

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

[blueglass]

On 9/18/2018 at 1:43 AM, mfbukowski said:

Yes it's hard to keep all the meetings straight unless one has to attend them.

But that cached link is incorrect- notice it mentions the High Priests group which no longer exists!  The information is obsolete- not sure where those dates came from- some kind of glitch.  NOTICE that the date of the page is 1987!!

The meetings now are about the same as they always have been- you put them on your calendar and show up and then figure out what this one is called after you arrive! 

If sisters want to attend I think that's a great idea!! A little diversity of opinion and a different point of view changes everything!  But typically they are not too.....interesting.  Lots of repetition.

Just fyi High Council has ALWAYS met twice a month in my 20 years or so of awareness- first on HC then a bishop and straight back to HC.

Every two weeks.  For eternity. 

They changed the name to Stake PEC for awhile then I think changed it back to HC again but there was no change in what was discussed etc.

The Sister Presidents of the Primary, YW, RS, as well as the male Sunday School and YM  presidents join us once a quarter to report on their organizations.  It has always been that way in our stake.  I think they call that one "Stake Council" meeting.

As far as I see it, the changes are in name only while keeping the same participants/ formats/ subject  matter.

 

So would it be correct to say that currently, the stake high council meets 2/month, 6/times quarter and that women are invited 1/6 meetings or is this an extra meeting held every quarter?   1/7 or 14% of meetings each quarter invite direct female intelligence, counsel and input?  

[blueglass]

On 9/16/2018 at 2:24 PM, katherine the great said:

Interesting thoughts. There are several things to consider when entertaining the idea of intelligence. IQ (which I think you are referencing in regard to the brethren since you cite their education levels) is really simply the capacity to learn. Yes, these are probably all relatively high IQ individuals. The biological definition of intelligence is broadly the ability to adapt to changing environments. And yet the spiritual definition of intelligence is "light and truth" which neither of the other definitions consider. I don't think having a government of people with high capacities to learn will translate to an influx of light and truth. But I do completely agree that women need to be an integral part of all decisions making since these decisions affect us and our lives as much as the men in the church.

I'm interested in your references to collective intelligence and will take the time and read your links.

For me I see the Savior's infinite empathic intelligence spanning both genders - He obtained an equal dose of female struggle.  as Chieko Okasaki wrote, "We know that Jesus experienced the totality of mortal existence in Gethsemane. It's our faith that he experienced everything- absolutely everything. Sometimes we don't think through the implications of that belief. We talk in great generalities about the sins of all humankind, about the suffering of the entire human family. But we don't experience pain in generalities. We experience it individually. That means he knows what it felt like when your mother died of cancer- how it was for your mother, how it still is for you. He knows what it felt like to lose the student body election. He knows that moment when the brakes locked and the car started to skid. He experienced the slave ship sailing from Ghana toward Virginia. He experienced the gas chambers at Dachau. He experienced Napalm in Vietnam. He knows about drug addiction and alcoholism.
Let me go further. There is nothing you have experienced as a woman that he does not also know and recognize. On a profound level, he understands the hunger to hold your baby that sustains you through pregnancy. He understands both the physical pain of giving birth and the immense joy. He knows about PMS and cramps and menopause. He understands about rape and infertility and abortion. His last recorded words to his disciples were, "And, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world." (Matthew 28:20) He understands your mother-pain when your five-year-old leaves for kindergarten, when a bully picks on your fifth-grader, when your daughter calls to say that the new baby has Down syndrome. He knows your mother-rage when a trusted babysitter sexually abuses your two-year-old, when someone gives your thirteen-year-old drugs, when someone seduces your seventeen-year-old. He knows the pain you live with when you come home to a quiet apartment where the only children are visitors, when you hear that your former husband and his new wife were sealed in the temple last week, when your fiftieth wedding anniversary rolls around and your husband has been dead for two years. He knows all that. He's been there. He's been lower than all that. He's not waiting for us to be perfect. Perfect people don't need a Savior. He came to save his people in their imperfections. He is the Lord of the living, and the living make mistakes. He's not embarrassed by us, angry at us, or shocked. He wants us in our brokenness, in our unhappiness, in our guilt and our grief."

D&Cov 88:40 For intelligence cleaveth unto intelligence; wisdom receiveth wisdom; truth embraceth truth; virtue loveth virtue; light cleaveth unto light; 

 

 

[CV75]

3 hours ago, blueglass said:

The duties of an apostle include the following:  

“focus on individuals and families and bear witness of Christ.”  Elder Bednar Aug2010
Apostle means "one sent forth"
ordained to be closest disciples and helpers during his ministry on earth Luke 6:13
Sent to represent Him and to minister for Him after His Ascension 1Cor15:3-9
Special witness of Jesus Christ in all the world, Acts1:8
Testify of His divinity
Testify of His resurrection from the dead Acts 1:22

From what I have read in the scriptures I don't see anything which prevents women from accomplishing all of these duties. 

The invitation to become apostles and prophets is upon all of us 1Cor 12: 29-31

29 Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts.

Of course anyone can and ideally everyone accomplishes these same things (see Mosiah 18: 8-10 as it applies to Church members as witnesses of Christ) without being ordained to the office of Apostle. The Lord set up the Church with very few individuals ordained to that office who in turn send forth others by administering the covenants and ordinances of the heavenly kingdom and setting the saints apart to callings in the earthly kingdom (hence the term "special witness of the name of Christ").

The answer to 1 Corinthians 12: 27-31 is “No, and there is a more excellent way: charity,” as explained in the next chapter. Charity helps us carry out the promises we made at baptism to act as apostles and prophets in our everyday lives and in our Church callings even though we are not ordained Apostles.

[blueglass]

A few thoughts by Sheri Dew recently Oct 2018 on these topics.  In the interview Sheri Dew reflects on women and leadership.  5 top universities in Utah now have women leading as president.  

https://omny.fm/shows/therefore-what/can-men-and-women-ever-be-equal-in-america?in_playlist=therefore-what!podcast

"Going back to can men and women ever be equal".  I hate the Equal word.  I think it is the wrong word.  Can men and women both flourish and shine and achieve their own maximum capacity?  - yeah for sure. "

"My experience is that in any setting and I think I have learned this in work.  At work, actually, better decisions, better results come out when men and women are working together because they all contribute something slightly different to the mix."

From Susan Madsen president of Utah valley university business school:  "getting to the best results in academia and research by having women and men in the conversation can affect both nature of questions asked and the findings found."

Dew: "Equal is a funny word, sameness is a funny word. Boy I'm telling you.  I could go back to a company that i used to lead and inevitably if there was a really bad decision made.  A really bad mistake where we just missed it on something just blew it on something - When you tracked it back to where was that decision made, in the spirit of how to improve it for the future, inevitably it was made either by all women or all men.  It was just uncanny."

Dew:  "I like to be in a room where there are men and women counseling together because I think the questions do change, we hear things differently, we tend to focus on certain things, and I would readily acknowledge that I am often in a room where I am the only woman.  With lots of men.  I love actually working with men, I respect them, I admire them. they have talents and gifts I will never have.  It is fair to say, when I can see other women in the room, they are hearing different hings, and it contributes to the overall conversation in a very distinct way.   I think that it is true.  It is a true principle.  Men and women coming together, actually counseling together  they come up with very good results."

President Astrid Timenez UVU 7th president:  build a "community of kindness".  

Dew:  There are women who are leaders who are hard to deal with I would guess that most female leaders have tendency to see the human side, to concentrate on the human side, which is not to say that men don't - I'm not saying that at all.  There is a natural empathy that when you are sitting across the desk from someone that has just blown it - it cost us a lot of money, or has done something that didn't work well.  It is an instinct to say - how will we do it better the next time."  

Ruth Watkins - 16th Pres of University of utah.   "making a contribution"  "We are never really happy or satisfied unless we're contributing. When we're using our gifts and talents on a regular basis, we maximize our talents and ability to contribute to society."

Dew on Watkins ideas:   "Each have a divine orbit."  "We are uniquely prepared and able to reach and influence in places where we are uniquely prepared to go and have influence.  We're wired that way.  If we're not there.  We're not happy. Where are we supposed to be - being there and doing the best we can."

Noelle Crockett 16th UState Univ.  empathic intelligence

Dew:  "It's often the strength of the mother.  It's often the strength of the mother when it comes to the penetrating influence on the children, when their world is rocked by something the death of a father or something else a divorce, or something else, or other things, serious illness, something that rocks your world for a period of time.  I'm not minimizing the impact of the father which is absolutely , profoundly important.  Often that mother pulls those kids through.   I have seen it in my own family.  There is a kind of courage that is instinctive almost inside of women.  I'm not sure if we credit women with that."

Deneece G. Huftalin, 8th President of  Salt lake community college - centered in the strength and value of diversity.  Classrooms are at their best when they are diverse.  16, 69yo and every ethnic group - only being at it's best when their is strength in diversity. Dew:  "This is a better amplification of what I was trying to say earlier. I want men and women in the room when we are discussing something difficult and yes if now you can add in different cultural points of view, just about life, about how things work, whether it is socioeconomic status, marital status it makes the conversation richer, it is part of the reason travel although it is exhausting has its benefits, you see people everywhere confronting the same problems but finding often different kinds of solutions for those problems."

Beth Dobkin 19th Pres of Westminister college:  "looking for identify, community, and purpose. "  

Dew:  "a female marine was interviewed and asked how do you do those things under difficult circumstances.  interviewer kept coming back - fourth time - she broke her demeanor and answered, "Look!  I'm a marine, ok!"  "They're brave under fire.  The power of identity - who they are and who they have always been, it helps discover what your divine orbit is."

women leadership in the political space. 

Dew:  "one of the areas in the state of utah where we are lagging behind.  a number of very accomplished women who are in the Utah state legislature one or two exceptions where is the dominant voice?  dominant roles along side men. not instead of but along side.  "I will repeat again my personal experience has been that better results occur when there are  men and women in the room who all have a voice.  It can't be be secretaries lining the wall it needs to be women and men who have a voice and who contribute in a spirit of collaboration to try to reach  - not what their best idea is but what THE  best idea is."    An area in this state where we need help and maybe we do in the country as well. "

challenges:   social media comparison - women have a challenge with constantly comparing with others.  impostor syndrome if people knew how insecure i am they would run me out of the building!
movements for women - grievances against men.  what they have or not.  having a scarcity mentality as compared to abundance.  Thoughtful view of President Nelson, "he's one of the brightest men I've ever met and the most humble I've ever met. Pioneering heart surgery and claiming credit, patents, publications?  "Our competition was not with each other our competition was with death."

 

 

Edited November 20, 2018 by blueglass

[MustardSeed]

I am not particularly concerned with a high IQ in leadership.  My experience even here at this site is that intellectualism certainly does not require Christlike attitudes, compassion, leadership, or understanding.  And it clearly doesn’t require emotional intelligence. 

I want my leaders to be spiritual and emotionally intelligent. That’s all I need. 

It’s most likely that a group of leaders that include women will best represent me and my needs. 

Not to name drop but I at one time was about as close with Wendy Watson as she’d let me get.  I have no doubt that the good Lord placed Russel and Wendy in each other’s paths to help and influence each other.  

 Wendy is no shrinking violet. She is fierce and wonderful. 

Edit to say, my point about Wendy being  because I hear her voice in my head and know her personality, I personally imagine she is very influential in how women’s issues are considered today.  

Edited November 20, 2018 by MustardSeed

[blueglass]

30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I am not particularly concerned with a high IQ in leadership.  My experience even here at this site is that intellectualism certainly does not require Christlike attitudes, compassion, leadership, or understanding.  And it clearly doesn’t require emotional intelligence. 

I want my leaders to be spiritual and emotionally intelligent. That’s all I need. 

It’s most likely that a group of leaders that include women will best represent me and my needs. 

Not to name drop but I at one time was about as close with Wendy Watson as she’d let me get.  I have no doubt that the good Lord placed Russel and Wendy in each other’s paths to help and influence each other.  

 Wendy is no shrinking violet. She is fierce and wonderful. 

We had a stake conference just 2 weeks ago.  The Saturday exclusively male Priesthood leadership training meeting was not scheduled and was replaced with an expanded ward council training.  It was much better.  

[blueglass]

1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s most likely that a group of leaders that include women will best represent me and my needs. 

What are your thoughts on the council of 120 mentioned in Acts 1 which counseled together to select a successor to Judas?  In the NIV Acts 1: 12-23 it says that in the earlier meeting with the apostles they "joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."  The council of 120 also included women, "Brothers and sisters".  Should we look at this more like a general conference solemn assembly in which a new apostle is sustained by the general body of believers in order of authority from priesthood office holders to women and children, or should we consider this council of 120 closer to that of a leadership council like the Nauvoo Anointed quorum which comprised both endowed men and women?  

Edited November 20, 2018 by blueglass

[MustardSeed]

51 minutes ago, blueglass said:

What are your thoughts on the council of 120 mentioned in Acts 1 which counseled together to select a successor to Judas?  In the NIV Acts 1: 12-23 it says that in the earlier meeting with the apostles they "joined together constantly in prayer, along with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers."  The council of 120 also included women, "Brothers and sisters".  Should we look at this more like a general conference solemn assembly in which a new apostle is sustained by the general body of believers in order of authority from priesthood office holders to women and children, or should we consider this council of 120 closer to that of a leadership council like the Nauvoo Anointed quorum which comprised both endowed men and women?  

Of course I would love to imagine the latter!  I cannot imagine why it could not be so.  

But we cannot know.  And tradition is not easily overcome.

I don’t think any of the men of significance in my life would have any problem counseling with women of equal status. 

I don’t ever expect women to be given priesthood power but I don’t see why women can’t be as involved and as valuable in any aspect of the gospel as any male, including church courts, interviews, decision making, on and on.  (Not that I personally have any desire to be more involved than I already am. )

I cant help but wonder though.  Does keeping women out of the 12s meetings and such help protect the 12 from working too intimately with women? 

 

[MustardSeed]

I remember about 5 years ago suggesting to my bishop that I might offer training to bishops in our stake in a certain area of expertise that I have.   

My bishop was a very forward thinking man but he cautioned me that such an offer would likely be turned down by our stake due to my sex.  He said our stake leadership and bishops were not likely to take direction from a young woman. 

I’m sorry to say I believed him and did not pursue the idea further. 

I do think still there are many people both male and female who do not believe women bring much value to a discussion.  I am not one of those, but I just don’t care enough to raise an issue on it beyond discussing it here. 

[blueglass]

36 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Of course I would love to imagine the latter!  I cannot imagine why it could not be so.  

But we cannot know.  And tradition is not easily overcome.

I don’t think any of the men of significance in my life would have any problem counseling with women of equal status. 

I don’t ever expect women to be given priesthood power but I don’t see why women can’t be as involved and as valuable in any aspect of the gospel as any male, including church courts, interviews, decision making, on and on.  (Not that I personally have any desire to be more involved than I already am. )

I cant help but wonder though.  Does keeping women out of the 12s meetings and such help protect the 12 from working too intimately with women? 

 

There is a sense of proxy representation through the influence of the apostles wives, but to have a male and female apostle (Junia) flying together to dedicate a temple?  Unthinkable!  The tabloids would relish the opportunity.  We need to rise  up in professional maturity and become a light on the hill for how this could work.