Which of the Articles of Faith are Necessary to be a Christian?

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

As I read so often on this board, we will just have to agree to disagree about the persecutions. I respectfully believe your answer reveals a blind spot. I respect you a lot. So please answer just one question for me - Can a non-Mormon believer in Christ ascend to the third level of the celestial kingdom where God the Father and Christ will dwell for eternity, absent the acceptance of the signs, passwords, sealings, baptism, endowments, etc. of the LDS Church, either in this life or in the spirit world? If your answer is no, then the LDS controls the eternal life of everyone, regardless of how you protest it doesn't.  If yes, then the Church needs to stop teaching that the LDS baptism, ordinances, signs, sealings, etc. are essential for eternal life (in a Mormon sense) (I hear it every week in testimonies). I even, in Elders Quorum had some senior men explain the difference between immortality and eternal life. They were quite clear we all have the former, but only a faithful Mormon (in this life or the next) has the latter. Do you disagree?

 

Interesting conversation. Your fundamental complaint or issue seems to be more fundamental than priesthood - that is only the vehicle that leads to some of the ordinances of Exaltation - but truth itself. You have created a red herring - we teach that all, as in every single child of God - will have the opportunity to obtain Exaltation. Not a single child will not have the opportunity to receive all the ordinances necessary for Exaltation. That being the case, it really is what is true or what organization has a fulness of truth necessary for Exaltation.  This teaching that all will have the opportunity to receive these ordinances is unique among all Christianity. If a child of God has been given truth - that have recognized it as truth - and tried to live it, then that individual may very well obtain the highest degree of glory. This does not fit within your construct and that is why it is a red herring for me.  

God has given a great deal of truth to the world. The truths of Exaltation are found within the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. However, that does not negate the ability for a wide range of truths to be found elsewhere that lead people in righteousness and faith. 

[Navidad]

27 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Interesting conversation. Your fundamental complaint or issue seems to be more fundamental than priesthood - that is only the vehicle that leads to some of the ordinances of Exaltation - but truth itself. You have created a red herring - we teach that all, as in every single child of God - will have the opportunity to obtain Exaltation. Not a single child will not have the opportunity to receive all the ordinances necessary for Exaltation. That being the case, it really is what is true or what organization has a fulness of truth necessary for Exaltation.  This teaching that all will have the opportunity to receive these ordinances is unique among all Christianity. If a child of God has been given truth - that have recognized it as truth - and tried to live it, then that individual may very well obtain the highest degree of glory. This does not fit within your construct and that is why it is a red herring for me.  

God has given a great deal of truth to the world. The truths of Exaltation are found within the restored gospel of Jesus Christ. However, that does not negate the ability for a wide range of truths to be found elsewhere that lead people in righteousness and faith. 

Thanks, I am fascinated by your last statement. I don't want to read too much into it. My signature on my email is a quote that says "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth - Neils Bohr. I don't know if that relates in any way. 

[Jane_Doe]

Just now, Navidad said:

Thanks, I am fascinated by your last statement. I don't want to read too much into it. My signature on my email is a quote that says "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth - Neils Bohr. I don't know if that relates in any way. 

LDS don't believe we have a monopoly on truth-- God inspires all people, and many people do find truths (spiritual, scientific, etc).  This isn't remotely limited to the tiny fraction of folks who are LDS.

[The Nehor]

The 10th. If you do not believe in the gathering of Israel and the creation of a New Jerusalem upon the American continent you are no Christian. You are probably one of those Scientologists

[Stargazer]

23 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

How is it possible for us to even imagine what it means to "exist" outside of time?   Our mental categories cannot handle it.  I remember trying to figure out, when I was in like second grade, what God was doing "before" he made us- AND time along with it

In second grade one's mental facilities have not yet matured to the point where one can hold such things in one's brain.  I would have liked to be able to say that in my old age I had matured sufficiently to find room in there to comprehend what lies outside this Universe, which is where God dwells.  Sadly, I cannot.

Every time I have attempted to contemplate things beyond our horizon I have found myself going into a kind of mental vertigo, as if my mind were suddenly weightless.  He has limited us, in order to make this mortal test a true test, and the only way to go beyond those limits is gain an enhancement not frequently granted to mortals.

Patience is enjoined.

[SouthernMo]

I think this is a great in that it invites me to examine my beliefs more closely and determine what they mean.

But, I urge one small caution - not accusing anyone here of needing it, but more of a thought/observation.

My calling right now is public affairs director, so I get to reach out to and try to talk to other Christians.  Here in my area, there are a lot of strong Christians, many of whom have the set belief that we are not Christian. The reasons vary.

I had one pastor tell me that we aren’t Christian because we believe that abortions are confined in cases of rape, incest, or the mother’s health. I had a reverend tell me that we aren’t Christian because we believe in scriptures besides the Bible. I could go on and on.

The point is this: While we do need to define Christianity (lest the term become meaningless), we need to be very careful about how/where we draw those lines.  We could be guilty of viewing Christianity through our ‘Mormon lens’ and miss something important.

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I certainly will not dispute your experience. I am just wondering if that might be your interpretation of their criticism? This is what confuses me -- The vast vast majority of those Christians who would reject Mormonism out of hand are those Christians who are not creedal. The mainstream Anglicans, Episcopalians, Lutherans, Presbyterians, Reformed, etc. are a shrinking percentage of Protestantism. Only they are the creedalist and for the most part I have not seen any anti-Mormon literature or thought coming from any of them. There are ten times more Southern Baptists (not all Baptists, just Southern) than there are all those groups I mentioned. I don't think there are many mainstream Catholics and Orthodox folks standing outside LDS pageants protesting. I may be wrong . . . I have never been out there protesting. 😊 All the fastest growing Protestant groups are not creedal, but are conservative. I am simply trying to put all that together in my mind.

They actually used the word “creed” so not sure how else to interpret it

That other EVs see things differently, I have no doubt and that probably is why they don’t feel the need to confront Latter-day Saints, but are only interested in sharing beliefs. 

[mfbukowski]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

In second grade one's mental facilities have not yet matured to the point where one can hold such things in one's brain.  I would have liked to be able to say that in my old age I had matured sufficiently to find room in there to comprehend what lies outside this Universe, which is where God dwells.  Sadly, I cannot.

Every time I have attempted to contemplate things beyond our horizon I have found myself going into a kind of mental vertigo, as if my mind were suddenly weightless.  He has limited us, in order to make this mortal test a true test, and the only way to go beyond those limits is gain an enhancement not frequently granted to mortals.

Patience is enjoined.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

As I read so often on this board, we will just have to agree to disagree about the persecutions. I respectfully believe your answer reveals a blind spot. I respect you a lot. So please answer just one question for me - Can a non-Mormon believer in Christ ascend to the third level of the celestial kingdom where God the Father and Christ will dwell for eternity, absent the acceptance of the signs, passwords, sealings, baptism, endowments, etc. of the LDS Church, either in this life or in the spirit world? If your answer is no, then the LDS controls the eternal life of everyone, regardless of how you protest it doesn't.  If yes, then the Church needs to stop teaching that the LDS baptism, ordinances, signs, sealings, etc. are essential for eternal life (in a Mormon sense) (I hear it every week in testimonies). I even, in Elders Quorum had some senior men explain the difference between immortality and eternal life. They were quite clear we all have the former, but only a faithful Mormon (in this life or the next) has the latter. Do you disagree?

You do not understand the symbols.

One may not need hands but one needs to know what they represent and you will get that opportunity if you want.

[Storm Rider]

4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks, I am fascinated by your last statement. I don't want to read too much into it. My signature on my email is a quote that says "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth - Neils Bohr. I don't know if that relates in any way. 

Dear Brother, I suspect we agree on a great many things. This medium is not ideal for communication.

[Navidad]

2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I think this is a great in that it invites me to examine my beliefs more closely and determine what they mean.

But, I urge one small caution - not accusing anyone here of needing it, but more of a thought/observation.

My calling right now is public affairs director, so I get to reach out to and try to talk to other Christians.  Here in my area, there are a lot of strong Christians, many of whom have the set belief that we are not Christian. The reasons vary.

I had one pastor tell me that we aren’t Christian because we believe that abortions are confined in cases of rape, incest, or the mother’s health. I had a reverend tell me that we aren’t Christian because we believe in scriptures besides the Bible. I could go on and on.

The point is this: While we do need to define Christianity (lest the term become meaningless), we need to be very careful about how/where we draw those lines.  We could be guilty of viewing Christianity through our ‘Mormon lens’ and miss something important.

You have a challenging position. Since I am the originator of this thread, I just want to encourage you that there are a good number of non-Mormon Christians who believe that Saints are our fellow Christians and who will defend that statement when and wherever. Of course the non-LDS community cannot and do not always agree among themselves on the definition of a Christian. It is all pretty sad. I have tried all I can to stress to the folks in our ward that we are more alike that we are different. I ask lots of questions; but for no other reason than to learn. And I am fairly sure that at times there are folks within the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who don't always agree what constitutes a faithful Mormon. Best wishes to you in your work.

[mfbukowski]

6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Thanks, I am fascinated by your last statement. I don't want to read too much into it. My signature on my email is a quote that says "The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.The opposite of a profound truth may well be another profound truth - Neils Bohr. I don't know if that relates in any way. 

More from Neils Bohr:

Quote

“The fact that religions through the ages have spoken in images, parables, and paradoxes means simply that there are no other ways of grasping the reality to which they refer. But that does not mean that it is not a genuine reality. And splitting this reality into an objective and a subjective side won’t get us very far.”

https://www.brainpickings.org/2018/02/01/niels-bohr-science-religion/

 

[Navidad]

23 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

More from Neils Bohr:

https://www.brainpickings.org/2018/02/01/niels-bohr-science-religion/

 

Thanks for the quote. Bohr was a brilliant man who lived through WWII and all that meant in Europe. He was a Physicist who won a Nobel Prize. He also was a self-proclaimed atheist. Kind of a gentle rational atheist. I like his non-Scientific writings. I can't understand the Scientific ones! 🤔

Edited September 5, 2018 by Navidad

[theplains]

On 9/3/2018 at 5:47 PM, Calm said:

And those who never had access to the scriptures?

I believe God will judge them based on the knowledge they had of Him. 

[CV75]

21 hours ago, theplains said:

I believe God will judge them based on the knowledge they had of Him. 

That can be taken a number of ways. What exactly does that mean?

For example: What constitutes knowledge of Him? How else do they obtain this knowledge without the scriptures? If they never obtained any knowledge of Him, will they go to heaven? What is the least knowledge they can have and not go to hell?

[mfbukowski]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:24 AM, theplains said:

I believe God will judge them based on the knowledge they had of Him. 

I hope you can understand that that, speaking practically, is what we believe also.

We could say exactly those words too.

God judges them based on the knowledge they had and then they get their just reward.

That is essentially exactly what we believe but without a long explanation of the process.

The essentials are that they die, God judges them according to their knowledge, and they receive the reward they deserve.

I have no problem explaining that in that manner. 

[mfbukowski]

On 9/4/2018 at 8:12 PM, Navidad said:

Thanks for the quote. Bohr was a brilliant man who lived through WWII and all that meant in Europe. He was a Physicist who won a Nobel Prize. He also was a self-proclaimed atheist. Kind of a gentle rational atheist. I like his non-Scientific writings. I can't understand the Scientific ones! 🤔

The fact that he was an atheist actually makes his religious position much more interesting, because he understood that religion could be about something real. He just did not believe it was, or was at least leaving the door open. So he was more of an agnostic than an atheist.

If an atheist tells us that religion can be real that is an interesting idea to contemplate. That was the point of me quoting him.

Edited September 8, 2018 by mfbukowski

[theplains]

On 9/7/2018 at 10:29 AM, CV75 said:

That can be taken a number of ways. What exactly does that mean?

For example: What constitutes knowledge of Him? How else do they obtain this knowledge without the scriptures? If they never obtained any knowledge of Him, will they go to heaven? What is the least knowledge they can have and not go to hell?

The heavens declare his creative works so I would view that as some evidence for God's existence.  There is
a belief in all this being created by God versus the belief that it was the result of some big bang or that God
caused the big bang and then things formed (working against the Second Law of Thermodynamics).  I'm not
able to speculate on some of your other questions.

Jim

[CV75]

3 hours ago, theplains said:

The heavens declare his creative works so I would view that as some evidence for God's existence.  There is
a belief in all this being created by God versus the belief that it was the result of some big bang or that God
caused the big bang and then things formed (working against the Second Law of Thermodynamics).  I'm not
able to speculate on some of your other questions.

Jim

Everyone sees God’s creations (at least everyone becomes alive) in some sense; are you saying that physical stimulus constitutes knowledge of Him, that this stimulus constitutes “hearing the word” (Romans 10), and that God will judge His children based their obtaining that physical stimulus? Is this what you mean by God judging those not having the scriptures based on the knowledge they had of Him?

[Meerkat]

On 9/2/2018 at 1:15 PM, MiserereNobis said:

But almost all Christians don't agree with #2. Original Sin is a deeply held Christian belief.

Members of the Church also believe in original sin, imputed sin, or the curse of Adam:

"21 And the days of the children of men were prolonged, according to the will of God, that they might repent while in the flesh; wherefore, their state became a state of probation, and their time was lengthened, according to the commandments which the Lord God gave unto the children of men. For he gave commandment that all men must repent; for he showed unto all men that they were lost, because of the transgression of their parents." 2 Nephi 2:21

The difference, if there is one, is that members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS believe that imputed sin was overcome by the Atonement and suffering of Jesus Christ for those under the age of accountability, as were the sins of those who died in ignorance of the law, as were and are the sins of those who repent:

"8 Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me."   Moroni 8:8

"22 For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—
            23 But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.
            24 Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law." Moroni 8:22-24

[Meerkat]

On 9/2/2018 at 6:25 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Are there in fact any Christians?  And how can we identify them?

"13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-- We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.  If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." 

I also believe there are many who worship God unaware, who could also be considered Christians.  If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck...

Or "Show me your faith without your works.  I will show you my faith by my works."  James

Edited September 10, 2018 by Meerkat

[Gervin]

On ‎9‎/‎3‎/‎2018 at 5:12 PM, mfbukowski said:

  I remember trying to figure out, when I was in like second grade, what God was doing "before" he made us- AND time along with it
 

 

Someone once asked Martin Luther what God was doing before he  created the heavens and earth ... he replied that He was cutting switches for people who ask such ridiculous questions.  

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Meerkat said:

"13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul-- We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things.  If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things." 

I also believe there are many who worship God unaware, who could also be considered Christians.  If it looks like a duck, and walks like a duck...

Or "Show me your faith without your works.  I will show you my faith by my works."  James

Dos this mean that a good Buddhist is a "Christian"?

[Meerkat]

2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Dos this mean that a good Buddhist is a "Christian"?

From a Salvation point of view, I believe there is a case to be made for that idea.  

I like a lot of what C. S. Lewis has to say:

“There are only two kinds of people in the end: those who say to God, “Thy will be done,” and those to whom God says, in the end, “Thy will be done.” All that are in Hell, choose it. Without that self-choice there could be no Hell. No soul that seriously and constantly desires joy will ever miss it. Those who seek find. Those who knock it is opened. ”
― C.S. Lewis, The Great Divorce

**I believe many, if not most people from all religions and walks of life, want to do God's will, if only they could find it.**

“[To have Faith in Christ] means, of course, trying to do all that He says. There would be no sense in saying you trusted a person if you would not take his advice. Thus if you have really handed yourself over to Him, it must follow that you are trying to obey Him. But trying in a new way, a less worried way. Not doing these things in order to be saved, but because He has begun to save you already. Not hoping to get to Heaven as a reward for your actions, but inevitably wanting to act in a certain way because a first faint gleam of Heaven is already inside you.”
― C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity

**I knew a professed athiest who loved his fellow beings, and sought to do good in the world.  I believe God blessed his efforts, and I considered him a friend.**

“It is safe to tell the pure in heart that they shall see God, for only the pure in heart want to.”
― C.S. Lewis, The Problem of Pain

“I know now, Lord, why you utter no answer. You are yourself the answer. Before your face questions die away. What other answer would suffice?”
― C.S. Lewis

**I believe when a person desires virtue, God works mightily within them to make Himself known.  That, in many cases, must continue beyond mortality, it seems to me.**

I don't recall where he said this (paraphrasing,), but I believe it: "There are many who worship God unaware..."

Then there is scriptural support that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being taught to those who were not familiar with His name during mortality (good Buddhists, etc.) but will be taught about Him following this life:  1 Peter 3:18-20, and 1 Peter 4:6 "6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

Edited September 10, 2018 by Meerkat

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Meerkat said:

From a Salvation point of view, I believe there is a case to be made for that idea.  

.........................................................

I don't recall where he said this (paraphrasing,), but I believe it: "There are many who worship God unaware..."

Then there is scriptural support that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is being taught to those who were not familiar with His name during mortality (good Buddhists, etc.) but will be taught about Him following this life:  1 Peter 3:18-20, and 1 Peter 4:6 "6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit."

That stretches the definition of "Christian" a mite too far.