Modesty issues...again

[Tacenda]

I keep trying to post something and I keep getting the 403 forbidden message. Does anyone know why? Nevermind, just saw the pinned post about glitches.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Tacenda

[mfbukowski]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

There is no need for modesty in order that women won’t be harassed or assaulted, no. 

Ok.

So is there any other need for it?

[Bernard Gui]

 

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I’m not asking what the men are thinking. Im not asking about your responsibility. I’m asking about a women’s responsibility to dress modestly to help men avoid sexual thoughts. It’s not a difficult question. 

It’s ok that you don’t like my answer. We’ve had dozens of pages discussing this. I cannot speak for what women should do. I can only speak for what I should do. You can make up your own mind about your responsibilities and choose the path to take. 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

27 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

It’s ok that you don’t like my answer. We’ve had dozens of pages discussing this. I cannot speak for what women should do. I can only speak for what I should do. You can make up your own mind about your responsibilities and choose the path to take. 

It’s not that I don’t like your answer, it’s that you refuse to answer.

You said:

“If I believe that one of the reasons to dress modestly is to not provide a stumbling block for another, then I can make the decision that I will do my best not to be that stumbling block. Does that mean I "caused" another to lust after me? No, of course not. Does it mean I am willing to be a help to another? Yes. As a reasonable and caring person, I can conclude that I will take personal responsibility for my actions, realize that I have an impact on others who may be somewhere along the spectrum, recognize that I don't live in my personal bubble, and work for the good of my brothers and sisters”

If the girl in the photo wanted to live according to this ideal and discovered that her feet were a stumbling block to some, should she cover them or not? This is a chance to put your words into action. Provide a real world example of how this principle should be applied.

 

Edited August 30, 2018 by SeekingUnderstanding

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

It’s not that I don’t like your answer, it’s that you refuse to answer.

You said:

“If I believe that one of the reasons to dress modestly is to not provide a stumbling block for another, then I can make the decision that I will do my best not to be that stumbling block. Does that mean I "caused" another to lust after me? No, of course not. Does it mean I am willing to be a help to another? Yes. As a reasonable and caring person, I can conclude that I will take personal responsibility for my actions, realize that I have an impact on others who may be somewhere along the spectrum, recognize that I don't live in my personal bubble, and work for the good of my brothers and sisters”

If the girl in the photo wanted to live according to this ideal and discovered that her feet were a stumbling block to some, should she cover them or not? This is a chance to put your words into action. Provide a real world example of how this principle should be applied.

 

She can consider what I have said and then decide for herself what course she should pursue. That’s all any of us can do. Are you expecting some sort of dictatorial religious edict forcing my personal definition of modesty on her like the unfortunate place where she lives? Her options seem to be very few.

What would you have her do?

What should be done to the guys on the bike?

I have posted a lot of real-world examples of how I apply this principal, in school as a teacher, at church as a leader involved with youth, and as a father and grandfather. Do you find any of them objectionable? Reasonaable? Laudable?

Edited August 30, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[california boy]

7 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

The whole problem with this line of thinking is it has no defined boundaries or borders. If we are trying not to arouse others, how far do we take it? What is reasonable? Do we just separate the sexes? What about our gay brothers and sisters? Should we wear makeup? Should we shower? If our goal is to not arouse others shouldn't we just gain 150 pounds? Try to make ourselves look old? It just becomes an impossible mess. 

Women in general are said to be attracted to masculinity, earning potential, alpha males. Should we eschew these things? Should men live impoverishedly to keep women from lusting after them?

This is where most of this discussion about modesty totally falls apart.  Let's take a deep breath and come back to reality for a minute.  I would say that just about every decision we make about clothing is meant to enhance our physical desirability.  So let's not pretend that it isn't.  When I go to buy a new suit, the tailor puts me in front of the mirror and marks where to take the coat in.  How the pants fit on my body.  Basically he is trying to get the suit to fit better.  Why?  Because I look better physically in a suit that fits rather than one that is ill-fitting.  And what is this all about?  So that I will be more attractive to others.  It is why we dress the way we do.  We stand in front of the mirror and constantantly say "Do I look good in this".  What does that mean?  It means will others find me attractive in this outfit.  It means will others respond positive to how I look.  Think about what that means?  Is it not really about sexual arousal or desirability?  It doesn't mean that I want to have sex with everyone who finds me attractive.  And I am not looking for that.  I am perfectly happy. with the person I am with.  But I still want to be attractive don't I.  Everyone does.  

So why do I want my suit taken in?  To show off what lies beneath the suit.  To emphasize that I am fit and have a trim waist.  Men are no different than women.  They want to be viewed as attractive and desirable as well.  We get hair cuts that make us look better. We go to the gym to have better body definition.  Believe me, there is not a single person at the gym lifting weights so that they can be better at moving their best friend next time they change houses.  They do it so that sexually they will be more desirable.  

Women are the same.  We choose colors that are more flattering on us.  We will try on 20 outfits to find the one that fits our body the best. If a woman has great legs, they will show that asset off more than a woman who doesn't. If a woman has nice breasts, they will make sure that part of them is enhanced.  That does not mean that their breasts are hanging out of their clothes.  That does not send the right sexual message for most women.  They don't want to look like hookers.  And sometimes less is more.  As Matthew Cowley once said about the Navajo women in their long velvet dresses "They leave everything to the imagination".  That is the look that the church finds acceptable.  The mystery of what is not revealed.  That is the look Mormon women are going for. Why?  Because in Mormon culture, that is what is socially acceptable.  They don't go for the easy, cheap shot.  They go for the alluring, use your imagination shot.  But let's not kid ourselves, everyone is trying to be more physically desirable.  If not we would all be running around in potatoes sacks.

Maybe at some point in our lives, we start to not worry about how desirable we are to others.  But usually that happens when we feel that no matter what we wear, that whole sexy body thing is not going to happen.  Generally the less you feel good about your body, the more you don't care about what you wear.  Of course these are all generalities, but the principle is correct imo.

 

[Calm]

Quote

 I would say that just about every decision we make about clothing is meant to enhance our physical desirability.  So let's not pretend that it isn't.

Comfort has always been at the top of my list, probably a family trait now because my kids wear nobrand jeans and Tshirts as much as possible.

And then I dress for how I look for myself and always have.  Just like I decorate my home so I and my family enjoy it and if others don't also love it, I don't really care.  When I start to think about others, the only real standard is "will anyone find this odd or annoying" (such as weird pattern or color combinations).  I don't think I have gone to "physical desirability in decades because I know as far as husband is concerned, Tshirts or fancy tops read pretty much the same for him...and I prefer not to be seen as physically desirable to anyone else.  I have always figured I didn't want someone who cared more about how I looked than how .I think, so my clothing has always been about what .I like about it.

I think there is likely a wide range of reasons when it comes to clothing choice.  Many do choose similar to your description, but all you have to do is look around to realize not everyone does because even cheaper clothes with some effort can be physically attractive, but there are many not choosing them, but go instead for shock value, to fade into the woodwork, nobrainer choice (wear pretty much the same thing every day that requires nothing more than throwing into the wash), etc.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Calm

[california boy]

8 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yes this is it exactly

1- IF it is the case (and it obviously is) that immodesty is arousing

AND

2 IF we want to help others who are struggling with becoming sexually aroused in inappropriate venues

Conclusion:

One should dress modestly.  Men and women it doesn't matter

If you don't care about arousing others then wear whatever you want- but don't blame it on THEM if they get aroused.

You would have to be an idiot to think that nakedness does NOT cause sexual arousal.   If that were not the case pornography would not exist.

Since we are to work together in the gospel, we should all work together to NOT arouse others.  We should care about others, our affects on them, be kind, etc.  We should treat others as we want to be treated.

That means modest dress.

Just like not insulting people or being rude etc.  We should be humble and caring to each other.

It's clear as day!

Well then I am an idiot because nakedness does not always cause sexual arousal.  I remember being in Bali decades ago.  The women there used to always be topless.  It was just their culture.  For them, showing their breasts was not any more sexually arousing than showing their feet.  A couple of years earlier the president of Indonesia outlawed women showing their breasts.  The younger generation had grown up with the idea that showing breasts was sexually arrousing and something to be ashamed of.  They wore tops accordingly.  But the older generation thought the law was ridiculous.  The old women would put on blouses to comply with the law, but never bothered to button them.  Their saggy breasts would sway back and forth as they walked down the street with no thought of sexual arousal.  Didn't do anything for me.  But then I am gay. So maybe that entered into it. Perhaps you might have been totally turned on.  But after you saw several of these women, I would bet that each one became less sexually arousing.  

Sexual arousal is all in context.  The same person could be wearing the same outfit and how they looked at you would have more to do with sexual arousal than what they had on.  That look has way more to do with sexual arousal than what they are wearing.  

[california boy]

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

Comfort has always been at the top of my list, probably a family trait now because my kids wear nobrand jeans and Tshirts as much as possible.

And then I dress for how I look for myself and always have.  Just like I decorate my home so I and my family enjoy it and if others don't also love it, I don't really care.  When I start to think about others, the only real standard is "will anyone find this odd or annoying" (such as weird pattern or color combinations).  I don't think I have gone to "physical desirability in decades because I know as far as husband is concerned, Tshirts or fancy tops read pretty much the same for him...and I prefer not to be seen as physically desirable to anyone else.  I have always figured I didn't want someone who cared more about how I looked than how .I think, so my clothing has always been about what .I like about it.

I think there is likely a wide range of reasons when it comes to clothing choice.  Many do choose similar to your description, but all you have to do is look around to realize not everyone does because even cheaper clothes with some effort can be physically attractive, but there are many not choosing them, but go instead for shock value, to fade into the woodwork, nobrainer choice (wear pretty much the same thing every day that requires nothing more than throwing into the wash), etc.

I certainly can see your point.  And comfort is a big part of how we dress as well.  But we still look in the mirror to make sure we look good, even if we are dressing just for our significant other.  As you said, you are making choices that you know he will respond to and don't worry about other people.  

And when you were younger and not married, I am guessing that probably made a difference in the choices you made.  The motivation for what we wear changes throughout our lifetime. 

Edited August 30, 2018 by california boy

[Calm]

13 hours ago, california boy said:

  As you said, you are making choices that you know he will respond to and don't worry about other people....

And when you were younger and not married, I am guessing that probably made a difference in the choices you made.  The motivation for what we wear changes throughout our lifetime. 

No, I said or meant to say that what I wear doesn't make a difference to his response, I can choose anything I want and he will respond to it just like anything else.

-----

"And when you were younger and not married, I am guessing that probably made a difference in the choices..."

Not much of a difference.  Again, I dressed because of how I wanted to feel in the clothing...comfortable and the right shapes and colors I liked to look at, the same way I decorate my house, not to impress people but to live in it...and I figure the people I wanted to attract would be attracted to my choice.  Since I didn't dress to attract but just to express who I am, I make the same sort of decisions process today...just with more money and a wider range of choice so I can indulge in more fun clothing, though health restricts some clothing I might have chosen in the past as they are no longer comfortable.

Next week, I am going to get my hair dyed in some fun, intense colors because I want some brightness and energy when I see myself in the mirror.  I know that no one but my grandkids and daughter will find it attractive.  My husband will control his rare distaste because he knows I enjoy a bit of flight of fancy now and again.  A few strangers however may perk up and smilie because they enjoy the fun quality of it, like I was tossing a ball saying play with me.  I would like for others to see it as fun and a reminder they can do fun things if they want, could care less if they judge me more or less attractive.

Edited August 30, 2018 by Calm

[california boy]

6 minutes ago, Calm said:

No, I said or meant to say that what I wear doesn't make a difference to his response, I can choose anything I want and he will respond to it just like anything else.

-----

And when you were younger and not married, I am guessing that probably made a difference in the choices...

Not much of a difference.  Again, I dressed because of how I wanted to feel in the clothing...comfortable and the right shapes and colors I liked to look at, the same way I decorate my house, not to impress people but to live in it...and I figure the people I wanted to attract would be attracted to my choice.  Since I didn't dress to attract but just to express who I am, I make the same sort of decisions process today...just with more money and a wider range of choice so I can indulge in more fun clothing, though health restricts some clothing I might have chosen in the past as they are no longer comfortable.

Next week, I am going to get my hair dyed in some fun, intense colors because I want some brightness and energy when I see myself in the mirror.  I know that no one but my grandkids and daughter will find it attractive.  My husband will control his rare distaste because he knows I enjoy a bit of flight of fancy now and again.  A few strangers however may perk up and smilie because they enjoy the fun quality of it, like I was tossing a ball saying play with me.  I would like for others to see it as fun and a reminder they can do fun things if they want, could care less if they judge me more or less attractive.

Sounds like a fun idea.  

[gopher]

What is the origin of the idea that the purpose for modesty for young women is to not arouse young men?  Is it from overzealous YW leaders?  It would be creepy if girls are hearing it from male leaders.  And I doubt the young men are doing any complaining.  We had a YW leader that admitted she was very naïve about how easily aroused males were until she was married.  She said she would have dressed differently around boys in high school, as well as acted differently (no prolonged hugging, sitting on boy's laps, and in flirting).  So she may have guilty of mentioning it in a lesson.  She was recently replaced by a vocal OW follower who refuses to even say the word modesty due to the protests she's read online.   I've never heard it taught to the young men.  If we are serious about reducing the occurrences of the arousal of young men, we should look into getting rid of bumpy school bus rides.  And mornings.

[BlueDreams]

3 minutes ago, gopher said:

What is the origin of the idea that the purpose for modesty for young women is to not arouse young men?  Is it from overzealous YW leaders?  It would be creepy if girls are hearing it from male leaders.  And I doubt the young men are doing any complaining.  We had a YW leader that admitted she was very naïve about how easily aroused males were until she was married.  She said she would have dressed differently around boys in high school, as well as acted differently (no prolonged hugging, sitting on boy's laps, and in flirting).  So she may have guilty of mentioning it in a lesson.  She was recently replaced by a vocal OW follower who refuses to even say the word modesty due to the protests she's read online.   I've never heard it taught to the young men.  If we are serious about reducing the occurrences of the arousal of young men, we should look into getting rid of bumpy school bus rides.  And mornings.

She must have not had brothers,  😛 . 

I have heard it from both male and female leaders growing up. My gut says more female....but I couldnt recall. The last time I remember hearing something like it was when i was walking past a huge youth EFY group talking to a mixed group of kids. The presenter was saying something along those lines, which irritated me. The presenter was male. 

The origin isn’t strictly LDS in nature. It’s still mentioned outside the church and was an even more common trope in decades past. It’s come up with every major style change that’s occurred as well.   And it happens in other cultures as well. It often has to do with wanting to control women’s sexuality...and can often bridge into simply controlling women period...well men are often not under as mich scrutiny for their behaviors. You still can see it in rape cases where what a woman was wearing maybe questioned as putting herself in danger or leadinga guy on or in worst case responses “asking” for it. 

Here’s an in interesting timeline giving a brief history about enforcing clothes styles on women:https://www.marieclaire.co.uk/reports/timeline-of-dress-codes-men-telling-women-what-to-wear-295043

 

and her’s a time’s piece on the quiverfull movement that this woman researches for a book: https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/3918215/modesty-culture-rape-culture

 

With luv, 

BD 

[BlueDreams]

Just as a side note, i’m probably Going to drastically reduce my time on this thread (if I respond at all). I feel that there are some serious and very real implications to some of the thoughts here that are being ignored by some in favor of wanting to maintain a position. It seems to me that by maintaining that position, a number here are simply maintaining a blind spot as to the actual consequences and weight of what their position in society maintains avserse consequences especially for women. I think several here have done amazing jobs of pointing out the problem, the gaping hole and sexist implications that have come from them, and better ways to teach the actual virtue of modesty....as opposed to the cultural baggage we have that has been used over the centuries to place an unnecessary burden and to enable danger in women’s lives. I have felt that burden personally more than once in my life. And the simple truth is that i refuse to give any space to teach the things that maintain that burden to my future sons or daughters. 

Thanks bsjkki for bringing a really important concern that we need, as a group to do better in. 

 

With luv, 

BD 

Edited August 30, 2018 by BlueDreams

[Tacenda]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

No, I said or meant to say that what I wear doesn't make a difference to his response, I can choose anything I want and he will respond to it just like anything else.

-----

And when you were younger and not married, I am guessing that probably made a difference in the choices...

Not much of a difference.  Again, I dressed because of how I wanted to feel in the clothing...comfortable and the right shapes and colors I liked to look at, the same way I decorate my house, not to impress people but to live in it...and I figure the people I wanted to attract would be attracted to my choice.  Since I didn't dress to attract but just to express who I am, I make the same sort of decisions process today...just with more money and a wider range of choice so I can indulge in more fun clothing, though health restricts some clothing I might have chosen in the past as they are no longer comfortable.

Next week, I am going to get my hair dyed in some fun, intense colors because I want some brightness and energy when I see myself in the mirror.  I know that no one but my grandkids and daughter will find it attractive.  My husband will control his rare distaste because he knows I enjoy a bit of flight of fancy now and again.  A few strangers however may perk up and smilie because they enjoy the fun quality of it, like I was tossing a ball saying play with me.  I would like for others to see it as fun and a reminder they can do fun things if they want, could care less if they judge me more or less attractive.

You go girl, I've wanted to do this as well, haha!!

[bluebell]

10 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Ok.

So is there any other need for it?

Yes, I believe there is a need to teach modesty.  I believe, as I've said multiple times now, that modesty is a principle that God asks us to follow.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

She can consider what I have said and then decide for herself what course she should pursue. That’s all any of us can do. Are you expecting some sort of dictatorial religious edict forcing my personal definition of modesty on her like the unfortunate place where she lives? Her options seem to be very few.

What would you have her do?

I would tell her to ignore the men. I would tell her to dress in a way that makes her feel comfortable. I would tell her that no matter how she dresses, she will never be able to stop men from objectifying her. The fact that you can't figure out what the woman should do with her feet speaks volumes.

 

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

What should be done to the guys on the bike?

If I were to be able to talk to them? I'd tell them that noticing attractive women is perfectly normal and healthy. That said, taking any action that makes women feel uncomfortable (e.g. leering, ogling, cat calling, etc) is not acceptable. 

 

8 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I have posted a lot of real-world examples of how I apply this principal, in school as a teacher, at church as a leader involved with youth, and as a father and grandfather. Do you find any of them objectionable? Reasonaable? Laudable?

I think trying to conduct ourselves in a way that is considerate of others is a laudable goal. But the tying women's modesty to helping men avoid inappropriate thoughts is anything but laudable. 

There is no level of modesty that will prevent men from objectifying woman. Period. Full stop. Teaching young women that they can become walking porn to the righteous young men around them is DAMAGING to them and sets them up for failure. Women are told to be attractive (Elder Ballard says to act feminine and put on lipstick, Utah culture "Moddest is Hottest") but not too attractive (don't want to be walking porn). It's just a majorly screwed up message. And what is sad is this thread is filled with faithful latter-day saint women who have shared story after story about how this messaging is damaging to them and posters like you (and mfbukoski, scott llyod, pogi and others) don't seem to care. 

No one is saying don't teach modesty. Modesty can be taught, and had without the horrible messaging attached to it. 

[bluebell]

1 hour ago, gopher said:

What is the origin of the idea that the purpose for modesty for young women is to not arouse young men?  Is it from overzealous YW leaders?  It would be creepy if girls are hearing it from male leaders.  And I doubt the young men are doing any complaining.  We had a YW leader that admitted she was very naïve about how easily aroused males were until she was married.  She said she would have dressed differently around boys in high school, as well as acted differently (no prolonged hugging, sitting on boy's laps, and in flirting).  So she may have guilty of mentioning it in a lesson.  She was recently replaced by a vocal OW follower who refuses to even say the word modesty due to the protests she's read online.   I've never heard it taught to the young men.  If we are serious about reducing the occurrences of the arousal of young men, we should look into getting rid of bumpy school bus rides.  And mornings.

I'm not exactly sure where the origin came from that modesty of YW is in part to keep YM from being turned on.  It's a good question.  YM have actually complained in the past though about the clothing choices of a young woman though.  It seems to happen most in college.

BYU student given note by a man that her clothing is inappropriate (picture of her clothes is included in the article)

Male BYU student keeps woman from being able to take a test because her pants were too tight  (And for those who want to say 'she wasn't following the honor code' the BYU-I put out a statement saying that skinny jeans were not prohibited by the honor code and that the testing centered had been corrected).

From my perspective, these kinds of situations (where young men shame young women because they feel their clothing is immodest) stem completely from boys being taught that girls should dress with their needs in mind.  

[bluebell]

15 hours ago, pogi said:

Should we not care then about being an influence for good to others? Or, are you saying that we should care, but not when it comes to modesty?  Should we just leave it all up to God and not try to be an instrument in his hands for good influence and an example of light and truth, dignity, self-respect, and modesty through all of our communications (including dress)?

Yes, we should want to be a good influence on others.  If we are sincerely behaving and dressing in ways that we believe God is o.k. with, then we have covered all the 'I want to be a good influence' bases.  If we are behaving and dressing in a way that we believe God is o.k. with, then we don't have to ask ourselves if we are being a good influence or not.  We are already doing everything we need to do.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 hours ago, gopher said:

What is the origin of the idea that the purpose for modesty for young women is to not arouse young men?  Is it from overzealous YW leaders?  It would be creepy if girls are hearing it from male leaders.  And I doubt the young men are doing any complaining.  We had a YW leader that admitted she was very naïve about how easily aroused males were until she was married.  She said she would have dressed differently around boys in high school, as well as acted differently (no prolonged hugging, sitting on boy's laps, and in flirting).  So she may have guilty of mentioning it in a lesson.  She was recently replaced by a vocal OW follower who refuses to even say the word modesty due to the protests she's read online.   I've never heard it taught to the young men.  If we are serious about reducing the occurrences of the arousal of young men, we should look into getting rid of bumpy school bus rides.  And mornings.

 

15 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I'm not exactly sure where the origin came from that modesty of YW is in part to keep YM from being turned on.  It's a good question.  YM have actually complained in the past though about the clothing choices of a young woman though.  It seems to happen most in college.

BYU student given note by a man that her clothing is inappropriate (picture of her clothes is included in the article)

Male BYU student keeps woman from being able to take a test because her pants were too tight  (And for those who want to say 'she wasn't following the honor code' the BYU-I put out a statement saying that skinny jeans were not prohibited by the honor code and that the testing centered had been corrected).

From my perspective, these kinds of situations (where young men shame young women because they feel their clothing is immodest) stem completely from boys being taught that girls should dress with their needs in mind.  

Let's not forget Elder Callister:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2014/03/the-lords-standard-of-morality?lang=eng

Quote

Our dress affects not only our thoughts and actions but also the thoughts and actions of others....

The dress of a woman has a powerful impact upon the minds and passions of men. If it is too low or too high or too tight, it may prompt improper thoughts, even in the mind of a young man who is striving to be pure.

Men and women can look sharp and be fashionable, yet they can also be modest. Women particularly can dress modestly and in the process contribute to their own self-respect and to the moral purity of men. In the end, most women get the type of man they dress for.

 

[juliann]

 https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865587219/Alex-Boye-stars-in-Mormon-modesty-remake-of-One-Directions-Thats-What-Makes-You-Beautiful.html

One of the refrains of this song is "we need your modesty."

Quote

Those in attendance at the Sandy Lone Peak Stake Young Women standards night in Utah must have received quite a surprise when a video with the Mormon Tabernacle Choir's Alex Boye and other young men singing and dancing to the hit British band One Direction came on.

Covering the popular song has become quite a trend among LDS young men groups, but this time, rather the lip syncing the popular song "That's What Makes You Beautiful," Boye and his group changed up the words.

The video is titled "Virtue Makes You Beautiful" and the group sings about modesty and the importance of being virtuous. Popular lines are switched as the group sings, "Baby you light up the world like nobody else/ by the way that you speak and respect yourself."

Edited August 30, 2018 by juliann

[mfbukowski]

7 hours ago, california boy said:

 Didn't do anything for me.  

Duh.

A gay guy agrees with all the women.

Surprise surprise 

Of course it is cultural. Do we live in Bali? 

poster removed

[Bernard Gui]

49 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I would tell her to ignore the men. I would tell her to dress in a way that makes her feel comfortable. I would tell her that no matter how she dresses, she will never be able to stop men from objectifying her. The fact that you can't figure out what the woman should do with her feet speaks volumes.

No it doesn’t. It tells you nothing about me. I agree with what you recommend to her.

49 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

If I were to be able to talk to them? I'd tell them that noticing attractive women is perfectly normal and healthy. That said, taking any action that makes women feel uncomfortable (e.g. leering, ogling, cat calling, etc) is not acceptable. 

That could possibly cost you your life, but if we’re that important to you maybe that would be acceptable. I already said what they appear to be doing is wrong. 

49 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

 

I think trying to conduct ourselves in a way that is considerate of others is a laudable goal. But the tying women's modesty to helping men avoid inappropriate thoughts is anything but laudable. 

That’s certainly what some people think.

49 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

There is no level of modesty that will prevent men from objectifying woman. Period. Full stop. Teaching young women that they can become walking porn to the righteous young men around them is DAMAGING to them and sets them up for failure. Women are told to be attractive (Elder Ballard says to act feminine and put on lipstick, Utah culture "Moddest is Hottest") but not too attractive (don't want to be walking porn). It's just a majorly screwed up message. And what is sad is this thread is filled with faithful latter-day saint women who have shared story after story about how this messaging is damaging to them and posters like you (and mfbukoski, scott llyod, pogi and others) don't seem to care. 

Those are serious accusations. What kind of poster am I?  Could you point out a specific thing I said that you think is damaging? 

49 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

No one is saying don't teach modesty. Modesty can be taught, and had without the horrible messaging attached to it. 

Why do you think it should be taught? What should be taught?

[juliann]

8 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

 

Why do you think it should be taught? What should be taught?

How many times do you need to be told how before it registers with you? 

[juliann]

32 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Duh.

A gay guy agrees with all the women.

Surprise surprise 

 

There couldn't be a better demonstration of your disdain for women's voices, not to mention "gay guys."  This doesn't seem like you.

Edited August 30, 2018 by juliann