Last instance of counsel for mothers not to work?

[rongo]

My wife was recently called to be a ministering secretary in our new ward. The RS president is a recent widow who is very active in visiting and ministering. Her counselors and presidency all work and are of limited utility for this (also because of lack of energy and zeal for visits). She was thrilled that my wife is a) super-organized, b) super-available, and c) super-active and experienced. 

Last night for young women's in our new ward, the YW presidency and advisors held a career night, sharing what they do for a living with the girls (every single one of them work). 

My wife and I were talking last night about how it seems more and more that we are a rapidly shrinking outlier in the Church (at least in our necks of the woods). We were wondering when the last mention of counsel for women not to work if possible was. I said 20+ years, and she said it can't be that long ago. I asked when the last time she heard it mentioned was.

I'm *not* looking to bash working mothers here; we're just curious about the phenomenon of vanishing counsel, and how this timeframe might coincide with many more mothers working. Better search skills than we have are greatly appreciated!  

Thanks in advance!

[CA Steve]

I think that is a very interesting question. I don't know the answer, but I would guess it also coincides with a change in how the church counsels families about birth control and family planning.

[JAHS]

 "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and the protection of their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children."
(Proclamation on the Family)

There. You read it just now. Is that recent enough?  They haven't changed it. 
Here's a link to a lot of quotes about mothers employment from the 2003 “Mothers’ Employment Outside the Home,” Eternal Marriage Student Manual (2003), 237–40

Mothers’ Employment Outside the Home

But most of the quotes are at least 20 years old. I suspect that even though the counsel is the same now for mothers to avoid working outside the home, it isn't mentioned much anymore because they don't want to make working mothers feel guilty for doing something they have to do to survive. The Proclamation also does say. "Disability, death or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation."

[The Nehor]

Some counsel is timeless:

 

[Maidservant]

Unfortunately I can't remember an exact time frame either.  However, I do remember remarking to myself at the end of some conference (general? women's?), "Hey, they did not once say women needed to stay home!"  It was a great relief to me.  So I noticed it at the time, but unfortunately I don't remember what time that was.  It was definitely before 2010.  But was it before 2000?  Maybe early 2000s.  Again, a vague memory, but what I remember that what was said, and I think it came from a woman, that those decisions were between the individual/couple and the Lord.  So maybe start with keywords like that and you might get lucky?

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

 I suspect that even though the counsel is the same now for mothers to avoid working outside the home, it isn't mentioned much anymore because they don't want to make working mothers feel guilty for doing something they have to do to survive.

I like this reason, but I hope there might be a slew of others--such as the great need for the influence of LDS women within all the structures of our society.

[rongo]

1 hour ago, JAHS said:

 "By divine design, fathers are to preside over their families in love and righteousness and are responsible to provide the necessities of life and the protection of their families. Mothers are primarily responsible for the nurture of their children."
(Proclamation on the Family)

There. You read it just now. Is that recent enough?  They haven't changed it. 
Here's a link to a lot of quotes about mothers employment from the 2003 “Mothers’ Employment Outside the Home,” Eternal Marriage Student Manual (2003), 237–40

Mothers’ Employment Outside the Home

But most of the quotes are at least 20 years old. I suspect that even though the counsel is the same now for mothers to avoid working outside the home, it isn't mentioned much anymore because they don't want to make working mothers feel guilty for doing something they have to do to survive. The Proclamation also does say. "Disability, death or other circumstances may necessitate individual adaptation."

Well aware of the PotF. And the old quotes. I was curious as to whether the last "talk mention" could be nailed down.

My former stake president's secretary was the patriarch's wife. Immediately following a conference talk by President Benson stating that, if possible, mothers should stay home with the children, she came up to him and tendered her two weeks notice. This would have been in the late 1980s somewhere. 

The PotF clause about exceptional circumstances has always been understood: mothers who have to work, should not feel guilty. It does seem that mothers working is now the default setting, rather than an exceptional circumstance.

[CV75]

2 hours ago, rongo said:

My wife was recently called to be a ministering secretary in our new ward. The RS president is a recent widow who is very active in visiting and ministering. Her counselors and presidency all work and are of limited utility for this (also because of lack of energy and zeal for visits). She was thrilled that my wife is a) super-organized, b) super-available, and c) super-active and experienced. 

Last night for young women's in our new ward, the YW presidency and advisors held a career night, sharing what they do for a living with the girls (every single one of them work). 

My wife and I were talking last night about how it seems more and more that we are a rapidly shrinking outlier in the Church (at least in our necks of the woods). We were wondering when the last mention of counsel for women not to work if possible was. I said 20+ years, and she said it can't be that long ago. I asked when the last time she heard it mentioned was.

I'm *not* looking to bash working mothers here; we're just curious about the phenomenon of vanishing counsel, and how this timeframe might coincide with many more mothers working. Better search skills than we have are greatly appreciated!  

Thanks in advance!

Our daughter (age 34, 3 children) is a stay at home Mom. Our daughter in law (age 29, 3 children) is not. Each prayed about their decision with their spouses.

I came across this a few days ago: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2018/08/striving-to-become-an-intelligent-and-noble-mother?lang=eng

Inspired Choices

“Once you know the Lord’s will, you can then move forward in faith to fulfill your individual purpose. One sister may be inspired to continue her education and attend medical school, allowing her to have significant impact on her patients and to advance medical research. For another sister, inspiration may lead her to forego a scholarship to a prestigious institution and instead begin a family much earlier than has become common in this generation, allowing her to make a significant and eternal impact on her children now.

“Is it possible for two similarly faithful women to receive such different responses to the same basic questions? Absolutely! What’s right for one woman may not be right for another. That’s why it is so important that we should not question each other’s choices or the inspiration behind them.”

President M. Russell Ballard, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Women of Dedication, Faith, Determination, and Action” (Brigham Young University Women’s Conference address, May 1, 2015), 4, womensconference.byu.edu.

[The Nehor]

22 minutes ago, CV75 said:

Our daughter (age 34, 3 children) is a stay at home Mom. Our daughter in law (age 29, 3 children) is not. Each prayed about their decision with their spouses.

I came across this a few days ago: https://www.lds.org/ensign/2018/08/striving-to-become-an-intelligent-and-noble-mother?lang=eng

Inspired Choices

“Once you know the Lord’s will, you can then move forward in faith to fulfill your individual purpose. One sister may be inspired to continue her education and attend medical school, allowing her to have significant impact on her patients and to advance medical research. For another sister, inspiration may lead her to forego a scholarship to a prestigious institution and instead begin a family much earlier than has become common in this generation, allowing her to make a significant and eternal impact on her children now.

“Is it possible for two similarly faithful women to receive such different responses to the same basic questions? Absolutely! What’s right for one woman may not be right for another. That’s why it is so important that we should not question each other’s choices or the inspiration behind them.”

President M. Russell Ballard, Acting President of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, “Women of Dedication, Faith, Determination, and Action” (Brigham Young University Women’s Conference address, May 1, 2015), 4, womensconference.byu.edu.

I admit I question the idiot in my ward who claims revelation told him to lease a very expensive car so he can drive for Uber on the weekends as his primary and sole source of income. Does this make me a bad person?  

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, rongo said:

Well aware of the PotF. And the old quotes. I was curious as to whether the last "talk mention" could be nailed down.

My former stake president's secretary was the patriarch's wife. Immediately following a conference talk by President Benson stating that, if possible, mothers should stay home with the children, she came up to him and tendered her two weeks notice. This would have been in the late 1980s somewhere. 

The PotF clause about exceptional circumstances has always been understood: mothers who have to work, should not feel guilty. It does seem that mothers working is now the default setting, rather than an exceptional circumstance.

I think you are right about this. I live in California and it is very unusual to find an active LDS family where the mother is not employed, unless their husbands are doctors, dentists, or lawyers.
The church has pushed for families to try and be more self-sufficient, which would most likely include having both parents work.

in 2009 Elder Bishop Richard C. Edgley said regarding self-sufficiency:
"Bishops, the sisters have a role in this effort. Because of the economy, many mothers are finding it necessary to make budget and other living adjustments. Some are even finding it necessary to leave the home to find work. The Relief Society sisters, with their specially endowed, compassionate hearts, can help. They can help identify the needy. They can teach. They can babysit, console, comfort, and encourage. They can make a difference." 

This Is Your Phone Call

For a long time now church leaders have not come out and flatly told mothers to not work outside the home.  I think even rather than be on church welfare they would rather the mother get a job to make the family more self-sufficient.

[strappinglad]

50 years ago my first home had a 25000 mortgage at 12% . Payments were in the $250 / month range. Now a home mortgage runs over 200,000 at 3+/- % and payments can be $1500 / month. Imagine if/when interest rates roll to 10% . I'm told the average price for a home in San Fran is over 600,000. We live in financial stress times.

[rongo]

40 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I think you are right about this. I live in California and it is very unusual to find an active LDS family where the mother is not employed, unless their husbands are doctors, dentists, or lawyers.
The church has pushed for families to try and be more self-sufficient, which would most likely include having both parents work . . .

For a long time now church leaders have not come out and flatly told mothers to not work outside the home.  I think even rather than be on church welfare they would rather the mother get a job to make the family more self-sufficient.

Definitely, working mothers is better than church or government welfare on the "good, better, best" continuum. My concern is just that there are so many (it's pretty much the default setting), and I think there are costs in activity rates, testimony, and commitment in the Church as a whole.

I am not condemning it in individual cases. Not at all. It's just that when all of these individual cases add up to be the norm, it doesn't seem like families are striving to do everything they can to follow prophetic counsel. Instead, I think many just see it as an economic or emotional necessity, and they see themselves as the exception. Practically everyone is the exception now. 

I just found it interesting to try to pinpoint when the counsel stopped, and it seems that everyone else's recollections are the same: it stopped, but it's hard to pinpoint when. I definitely think that the shift is mainly to avoid heaping guilt on people who are in the "exception" group that is not the norm. 

[JAHS]

3 minutes ago, rongo said:

My concern is just that there are so many (it's pretty much the default setting), and I think there are costs in activity rates, testimony, and commitment in the Church as a whole.

Well, at least cost to attendance rates. So many businesses are open and staffed on Sundays now, which means the working parent must sometimes work on Sunday and miss church even though they might still consider themselves an active member.  And not attending church can indeed lead to inactivity if the member is not careful. 

[CV75]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I question the idiot in my ward who claims revelation told him to lease a very expensive car so he can drive for Uber on the weekends as his primary and sole source of income. Does this make me a bad person?  

My hunch is "no," but then again it depends on the methods with which you question him... 

[Rain]

What I am seeing with my daughter and the women her age are not to be the exception, but to truly find out from the Lord what He wants, which is a much better way to look at it all.  My children and their friends (who have patriarchal blessings) are looking to their  blessings to help them decide what to do with their lives and there is a great deal in those blessings that have to do with things outside the home as well as in for both of them.  While I looked for guidance in my blessing it never even occurred to me to look there as far as being a SAHM or have a career etc.  It was just a given that I would try to be a SAHM and only work as an exception.  While I don't have any regrets at being a SAHM and feel that was the right thing for me to do I think that I really missed out not going through it the way my children have done it.  

So rather than the leaders speaking out on staying home or not staying home I see the leaders asking our youth to really grow close to the Lord and find out what He wants them to do with their lives.  I think this is why you don't see them talking about staying at home as the first choice.  Whether most of the women become SAHM or work, I think that individually finding one's mission in life is a great thing.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Rain

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, strappinglad said:

50 years ago my first home had a 25000 mortgage at 12% . Payments were in the $250 / month range. Now a home mortgage runs over 200,000 at 3+/- % and payments can be $1500 / month. Imagine if/when interest rates roll to 10% . I'm told the average price for a home in San Fran is over 600,000. We live in financial stress times.

Interest rates rising might be a good thing. Home prices would have to fall as it would cut off the housing market for everyone who cannot pay cash. Unfortunately that would massacre the Boomers who have saved virtually nothing for retirement and whose only hope is using their home’s value.

[katherine the great]

3 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I admit I question the idiot in my ward who claims revelation told him to lease a very expensive car so he can drive for Uber on the weekends as his primary and sole source of income. Does this make me a bad person?  

Yes.

[BlueDreams]

1 hour ago, Rain said:

What I am seeing with my daughter and the women her age are not to be the exception, but to truly find out from the Lord what He wants which is a much better way to look at it all.  My children and their friends (who have patriarchal blessings) are looking to their  blessings to help them decide what to do with their lives and there is a great deal in those blessings that have to do with things outside the home as well as in for both of them.  While I looked for guidance in my blessing it never even occurred to me to look there as far as being a SAHM or have a career etc.  It was just a given that I would try to be a SAHM and only work as an exception.  While I don't have any regrets at being a SAHM and feel that was the right thing for me to do I think that I really missed out going through it the way my children have done it.  

So rather than the leaders speaking out on staying home or not staying home I see the leaders asking our youth to really grow close to the Lord and find out what He wants them to do with their lives.  I think this is why you don't see them talking about staying at home as the first choice.  Whether most of the women become SAHM or work I think that individually finding one's mission in life is a great thing.

That's what I see as well. It could be regional. In the area that I live there's a fair mix of stay-at-home and working moms to some degree. Among my friends, they've made decisions for their families based on both circumstance/necessity and what felt right spiritually/personally as well. Personally, I definitely resonate with what you describe to what helps me decide where I'm headed. My PB mentions my education as being on the Lord's errand. I always assumed that I would likely get more than one degree because of the way it was worded and I took my education seriously (and not simply as an emergency backup plan) from it. Likewise, as we begin planning for a family (not pregnant) and as I've thought about what I would do, I would look at my PB as well. In it, my career and family are mentioned with each other, but prioritized (family first, but career still important). My current plan is to take a short break, then go back to work but with very limited hours at least at first...working on side opportunities for advancement that I've had my mind on. 

I do remember growing up hearing things that would fall along the lines that mothers should be more at home than not and that education/work was often worded as good for emergencies. (ie. you should get it, just in case). I think I remember a conference talk strongly encouraging not delaying children in a general conference talk. Ironically, that talk was the spiritual answer that helped a friend of mind to decide to wait a little longer to have kids. That would have been sometime around 2013 or 14, I think.  But my guess is that a greater understanding that parents' stewardship is to decide what's best for their family in very diverse and distinct challenges around the world is probably part of the reason that type of talks have basically dried up. 

 

With luv,

BD

Edited August 2, 2018 by BlueDreams

[The Nehor]

1 hour ago, katherine the great said:

Yes.

More repenting. Yuck.

[rpn]

What more could leaders counsel, anyway?   Counsel at this juncture comes across mostly as judgment, that is really uncalled for as individuals have to figure this out for themselves.  IME, there are few women who don't long for the opportunity to stay home with children, except in the subset of women who are domestically or trust enough to count on someone else challenged.

[Jeanne]

Growing up, hearing that women should be at home, was the norm.  This is what I wanted to do.  Getting married at almost 23, I had a job already and was set to work for the government pushing for a career.  As a GS 5 with two young children, my money was just paying the baby sitter and helping with child support.  We moved and went to rental housing on a government post and I stayed home..yeah..I loved it.  Would not trade those moments for anything...all that being said..I should have started working when the kids reached JR. High.  By the time they were in High School....Dad was sick and gone..and Mom had not worked for years...scary...so there are so many sides to this. 

[katherine the great]

10 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I should have started working when the kids reached JR. High.  By the time they were in High School....Dad was sick and gone..and Mom had not worked for years...scary...so there are so many sides to this. 

So true! We need to put aside money for the future whether it be in the form of a second income, or really good life insurance. Of course life insurance doesn't protect against an unexpected and unwanted divorce. I've had friends left in dire straits when hubby suddenly decides to trade her in after 15 years and 5 or six kids. If she has no marketable skills, she will struggle greatly to make a living. 

[katherine the great]

2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

More repenting. Yuck.

Get busy!

[Waylon]

I think ETB's counsel was great for it's time.  In the late 1970s-80s there were enough single income homes that rent/mortgages were based on what a single income home could afford.  Dual income homes were the exception and unnecessary.  In the 1990s or so, it became the norm to have dual income households, and rent/mortgages went up to factor this in, the massive cash influx from working mothers being everywhere.  Now, we are working twice as many hours to pay the rent on the same houses for the exact living standard that once required one income.  Thanks, feminism.

On the macroeconomic level, working mothers have been a disaster that has in the long term done nothing to improve the standards of living of american families.

On the individual level, while SAHM is ideal, if you have to make a compromise here, do it and don't feel bad about it.  I get it, there have been periods of time where things were so unstable my wife has  had to work.  That's just life these days.  If you can be a SAHM, be thankful, in the current dual income economy you are very fortunate.  I feel like children have a better chance of turning out OK with two working parents than one working parent and living next to a crack house in the ghetto, etc.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Waylon

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, Waylon said:

I think ETB's counsel was great for it's time.  In the late 1970s-80s there were enough single income homes that rent/mortgages were based on what a single income home could afford.  Dual income homes were the exception and unnecessary.  In the 1990s or so, it became the norm to have dual income households, and rent/mortgages went up to factor this in, the massive cash influx from working mothers being everywhere.  Now, we are working twice as many hours to pay the rent on the same houses for the exact living standard that once required one income.  Thanks, feminism.

On the macroeconomic level, working mothers have been a disaster that has in the long term done nothing to improve the standards of living of american families.

On the individual level, while SAHM is ideal, if you have to make a compromise here, do it and don't feel bad about it.  I get it, there have been periods of time where things were so unstable my wife has  had to work.  That's just life these days.  If you can be a SAHM, be thankful, in the current dual income economy you are very fortunate.  I feel like children have a better chance of turning out OK with two working parents than one working parent and living next to a crack house in the ghetto, etc.

Thank you for your nuanced opinion.

[The Nehor]

16 hours ago, katherine the great said:

Get busy!

Guess who wants Fast Offering help to pay the rent now? Repentance cancelled.